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Stormfoot Stormfoot
Gendry's Leech Eternal Pretorian Alliance
2
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Posted - 2013.11.09 00:10:00 -
[1] - Quote
After discussing with a corpmate about rapid launchers and thew new rapid heavy launchers... I made the observation that other weapon systems... particularly hybrid, projectile, and laser, do not have a similar module... which is great and fine since missiles should really have their own flair and be more relevant in pvp...
But the topic of each weapon system having their own signature came up and I'd like to propose a new concept for lasers and see what everyone thinks. Since lasers, hybrids and projectile all operate within similar concepts while retaining uniqueness... what if we made lasers more like... well beams of scorching heat.
How about treating them as burst weapons where they operate as continuous beams of dps that can really apply pain like no other but will continuously drain your cap... so much so that you cannot possibly perma run a laser system. The overall dps could be slightly less than projectile or hybrid over time considering cap recharge and time not shooting but when the lasers are actually active it would be far more dps than the others.
This could go hand in hand with the tendency for Amarr ships to buffer tank, so their cap could just be centered on bursts of high power streams of lasers and would add more emphasis on player cap management.
It could be tricky to balance but I think would add a refreshing take on pvp and pve in eve especially with a race that can often be considered more bland than the others.
Curious on your thoughts |
Froggy Storm
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
113
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Posted - 2013.11.09 01:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
An interesting idea. Though as you said, tricky to balance. And that is likely being generous considering the way alpha works. Most likely the real issues are in coding for the new damage type.
Assuming it still has to calculate for tracking fall off and the rest of the things turrets have in their math, it begins to bring in a question of how "fast" does each damage tic cycle/calculate and apply? Taking that with the way the server tic works, you end up with just a regular turret that effectively cycles every second +/- tidi. The DPS would have to be dialed down then so that the average of each 'cycle' of damage applied is in line with the rest.
But to that end it begs the question of why not just drop cycle times for lasers all to 1s. The answer there being (nearly) impossible to balance between the hull/gun sizes and no way would you ever be able to keep your cap up while applying reasonable damage.
About the only real world advantage I could see would be a niche role in big fleet battles where you have already passed beyond the tidi cap and module lag is a serious problem. Then maybe a FC could call for a specific number of cycles for a given target with lowest possible cycle times. |
Stormfoot Stormfoot
Gendry's Leech Eternal Pretorian Alliance
2
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Posted - 2013.11.09 02:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
Interesting feedback... definitely lots of things in play with this... perhaps it may not be as hard to balance the ticks though
Lets go with the 1 second damage ticks you proposed. I like this idea, have a set cap usage per 1 second tick... which would have to be less than it is now but not proportionately less if we are making the dps while firing greater. So in effect it would lower the first alpha strike considerably but say the damage applied over a 10 second period of time would be greater.
Those 10 seconds of firing would chew through more cap because of the 10 ticks instead of say 3, but would do lets say twice the dps. Then you would reasonably have to wait 10 seconds before you could apply another 10 second burst and keep up with that pattern.
Alternatively lets say you want to apply a 15 second burst but would drain your cap completely, that would give you the option to put that extra pressure on your cap at risk of capping out and having to wait even longer to fire again. So if your enemy survives these bursts then you're in trouble. It would truly allow you to choose when to apply pain and when to let off.
The biggest problem I am seeing with this proposal I am having are cap boosters... if someone is using cap boosters they could in theory keep their guns firing continuously and really wreck it up!
How about the concept of a scaling cap usage. So the longer your beams are firing the more cap per tick they will use to limit the advantage of cap boosters... yet this is another new mechanic that would be untested but would add huge combat dynamics to pvp of both small and large groups.
The numbers I were throwing around were just generalizations... I dont know all the complex math behind it but they sound rightish to me... :P
Also about the tracking and what not, I think that would definitely apply the say way. If you're not tracking the target your beam is missing.
This proposal though would be a complete restructuring of lasers into something as different from hybrids and projectiles as say missiles are. |
Froggy Storm
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
113
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Posted - 2013.11.09 03:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
Maybe apply tracking in so much as the damage rises by a % of previous 'rounds' applied damge then.
Where each tick it does a damage calc as normal then adds (arbitrary #) 10% of the previous applied tic to get the damage total. With a system like that a perfectly stationary target/shooter has a more or less linear rise in damage where the slope is set by the % change. A possible sticking point could come from the turret crit mechanic but with the tracking/fall off it might all come out in the wash. You would need someone with a much better stats foundation than I have to give an informed decision.
Would give a steady and logical way to plot damage rise over sustained firing, as well as a player skill way to evade/reduce the damage. Heck it isn't all that different than the latest rml revision.
Honestly an interesting idea. Though it has moved WAY into the 'wrong thread' zone. Prolly worth moving to the ideas forum at this point.
See I can do more than JUST troll people :p |
Leta Lilitu
EVE University Ivy League
10
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Posted - 2013.11.09 07:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
I replied in the new thread, so now you can pick it up there. You may want to turn the OP into a summary of the points from here for ease of reading. |
ACE McFACE
Radical Astronauts Plundering Eve Filthy Bastards
1554
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Posted - 2013.11.09 08:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
But wouldn't cap boosters just make them OP until you run out of them too? |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
191
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Posted - 2013.11.09 10:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
Here are a few issues to consider:
If you reduce lasers Cycle time to 4 seconds (four seconds because that's what drone RoF was increased to because shorter caused problems) with a four second animation, and reduced the damage and cap use accordingly... All that would result would be a laser which is really good at getting final blows... If, somehow, a "true DoT" damage tick weapon were to be devised which didn't cause issues with the server... It could gain no benefit from Controlled Bursts, Rapid Firing or Gunnery and would therefore lose considerable DPS compared to current - which would have to be compensated... Another consideration is tracking, how does such a weapon track targets? Most systems which use this sort of weapon don't have an analogue for tracking and therefore the impact of a "Targetted DoT" weapon is minimal - while in EVE it has the potential to be very severe indeed.
Increasing the resulting DPS significantly by the way (at the cost of reduced Alpha) is not an option. |
Odethia
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2013.11.09 11:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
Laser were already meant to deal big damage while eating ton of cap, that's why a lot of Amarr ship had Cap Reduction bonus instead of damage bonus (built in the gun), but update after update they have been made them more and more alike to the guns.
Except they still eat tons of cap for no real benefit compared to other weapon systems.
Instant ammo swap, yeah ! |
Botia Macracantha
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
1
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Posted - 2013.11.09 12:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
Slicing ships in 2 with a lazor ... +1 Trying to balance it into Eve ... eek! |
Thaddeus Eggeras
TwoTenX LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
66
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Posted - 2013.11.09 17:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
First off lasers have had the amount of cap they use reduced to go with the changes to bonuses. They don't use as much cap as they once did.
Second lasers RARELY need to reload, and if you need to switch ammo type it takes less then a sec, where as other guns take 5s, and missiles take 10s. So that is a pretty go reason to make them more cap hungry.
Third the rapid launchers and heavy rapid launchers were made to do what the smallest version of med guns and large guns do already. A dual 180mm have no isuue rocking destroyers or frigates, 220mm rarely have issues with them. Nor do Electrons or Focused Medium Pulse, and this is the same for their large brothers against cruisers or battlecruisers. Range weapons never have much issue taking out smaller targets as long as they aren't moving in Z. And missile are no different, if your target is moving at all doesn't matter how, your damage goes down a good deal with missiles, even if you have great missile skills. Missiles have the LEAST amount of options out of the 3 weapon types (guns, missiles, and drones). I think giving them one more launcher really isn't going to justife a reason to add more guns, or drones.
Now maybe guns get another option all together would be interesting, but is it needed, no not really. Guns are pretty well covered. Would be nice to see smaller web drones, and maybe disrutpor drones, but that could make drone boats OP. |
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Shrike Arghast
Aliastra Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2013.11.09 20:24:00 -
[11] - Quote
Homogenization will be the death of EVE. |
stoicfaux
3334
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Posted - 2013.11.09 22:38:00 -
[12] - Quote
I'm visualizing a huge fleet fight in which both sides are waiting on the cap recharge (or 40 second RHML reload) time while under TiDi... What are they supposed to use while recharging/reloading, harsh language?
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Moonlit Raid
State War Academy Caldari State
103
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Posted - 2013.11.10 16:36:00 -
[13] - Quote
Just throwing it out there. mining lasers cope with continuous firing just fine and calculate the amount of damage [ore mined] they do proportional to the amount of time they're active.
I like the idea though, I envisage it being useful for finishing a target off. Just for example. target gets hit with 1400's; now at 15% armour. Lasers hit it until it dies whilst 1400's cycle to hit the next. No dps wastage whatsoever. |
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
27
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Posted - 2013.11.10 20:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
I forget when, but I have brought that one up as well. My proposal was for beam lasers to be exactly that. And pulse lasers to well "pulse" preferably with 2 short light flashes and a strong one after. Zap zapp scortch!! This would be cosmetic for 2 shots to test-fire like one would artillery or a sniper rifle, readjust and fire your best shot. This was part of a proposal to create larger differences in damage application between weapon-systems. So that you end up with more distinct flavors. A general shift of alpha damage moving to short ranged weapons instead of long ranged. And minmatar having the exception to that rule with close to current alpha but with a slight damage delay akin to missiles for artillery. And the opposite for auto-cannons. Hybrid would be in between applying instantly.
The idea was to really look at things and be more creative. Blasters would have the highest alpha with very small ammo clips and very fast reloads. AC would have the fastest rate of fire with the longest reload like now, which works with the minmatar design philosophy of kiting in falloff and gives good information feedback through damage done on wether you have a good orbit tracking/damage vs speed tank situation.
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Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
148
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Posted - 2013.11.10 21:11:00 -
[15] - Quote
I like it....I do believe they have a similar weapon system on Dust. The longer you hold the beam weapon on someone the more damage it does. |
Savnire Jacitu
FRONTLiNE GRP.
198
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Posted - 2013.11.11 17:11:00 -
[16] - Quote
Hmm....being someone that uses lasers a lot, this idea is pretty cool, but like people are saying balance would be kinda hard.
Would make for interesting sniping mechanics. (Halo: Reach beam rifle for reference.)
And I would miss the alpha on my Abaddon, but constantly applied 1000 DPS would be nice. New meaning to melting ships.
side note- I would like to see the ships literally becoming molten blobs of slag rather than blowing up as a result.. <corrupt> |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1042
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Posted - 2013.11.11 18:59:00 -
[17] - Quote
it would be overpowered on ships that could reasonably/easily fit a cap booster, and bad on things that could not. The existence of the cap booster as a module kind of ruins this concept.
Furthermore, this concept would make laser ships be completely and utterly ****** by neuts. |
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
27
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Posted - 2013.11.11 22:08:00 -
[18] - Quote
The more dps with added energy cost concept would probably screw PvE pretty hard though. You would seriously destroy with dps tanking and an ancillary armor or shield booster. Hard to implement would be an understatement, albeit an interesting proposition. |
Camper101
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
880
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Posted - 2013.11.12 09:53:00 -
[19] - Quote
Huge balancing issues. But as CCP always seems to introduce a Overlord Weapon system with each balancing pass:
YES, I WANT DEATH RAYS! 2013.03.01 13:30:58 notify For participating in the General Discussion Forum Section your trustworthiness has been adjusted by -2.5000.
My name is Hans. The "L" stands for danger. |
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
27
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Posted - 2013.11.12 11:39:00 -
[20] - Quote
Camper101 wrote:Huge balancing issues. But as CCP always seems to introduce a Overlord Weapon system with each balancing pass:
YES, I WANT DEATH RAYS!
I was sort of envisioning charging deathray, wait for ganker to warp on grid. BOOM headshot!!!! |
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Cown
Ministry of Destruction SCUM.
4
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Posted - 2013.11.13 17:39:00 -
[21] - Quote
Would make Lasers feel more like a Space weapon
+1 |
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Desperado-Enforcement LLC
21
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Posted - 2013.11.13 19:53:00 -
[22] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:I'm visualizing a huge fleet fight in which both sides are waiting on the cap recharge (or 40 second RHML reload) time while under TiDi... What are they supposed to use while recharging/reloading, harsh language? hm, under 10% tidi thats 400 seconds or 6 minutes 40 seconds. That sounds like a good bio break to me. Just don't be late for the next volley! I hate to disagree with you,-ábut there is nothing subjective about "boring" in connection to "mining". -á-á-á-á -- Solstice Project's Alt |
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