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Jarod Garamonde
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
695
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Posted - 2013.11.15 06:32:00 -
[91] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:iskflakes wrote:Supercarriers are well balanced right now. Dreads do a lot more DPS, carriers do a lot more rep. Supercarriers do both roles but less well than the specialized ships, which is how it should be. They are very vulnerable to subcaps and dreads. A lone supercarrier cannot defend itself against tacklers, and a supercarrier fleet will die without support. It's unfortunate that more expensive ships don't die, but this is due to low risk taking by their pilots and not because the ships are too strong.
If you want to balance something, fix titans. They are so weak right now that there is no reason to use them (except for showing off). Titan support for supercarriers.
TITANS ARE MY TRIGGER!!!!! That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right... |
Ludi Burek
Toilet Emergency JIHADASQUAD
279
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 07:19:00 -
[92] - Quote
Any balance attempts should include a capital bastion module and possibly some sort of mini game. Maybe even a siphon of some sort... |
Col Arran
Devils Diciples League of Infamy
156
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 08:17:00 -
[93] - Quote
I had a very long reply and the forums ate it so meh I'll just throw this out.
Titan superweapons need to be limited to ships over 30km sigradius and they need to do about 5-10 times more damage than they do currently. This would not make supcaps obsolete since the Titans wouldn't be able to kill them and it would solve the supercap proliferation issue by actually killing supercaps faster than they're being created. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5158
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 08:20:00 -
[94] - Quote
Col Arran wrote:I had a very long reply and the forums ate it so meh I'll just throw this out.
Titan superweapons need to be limited to ships over 30km sigradius and they need to do about 5-10 times more damage than they do currently. This would not make supcaps obsolete since the Titans wouldn't be able to kill them and it would solve the supercap proliferation issue by actually killing supercaps faster than they're being created. i knew i should've gotten a titan
progodlegend's victory again There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Col Arran
Devils Diciples League of Infamy
156
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 08:23:00 -
[95] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Col Arran wrote:I had a very long reply and the forums ate it so meh I'll just throw this out.
Titan superweapons need to be limited to ships over 30km sigradius and they need to do about 5-10 times more damage than they do currently. This would not make supcaps obsolete since the Titans wouldn't be able to kill them and it would solve the supercap proliferation issue by actually killing supercaps faster than they're being created. i knew i should've gotten a titan progodlegend's victory again
Can't have all those PL N3 titans going to waste now can we? But in all seriousness I really don't know what the current titan is even good for other than bridging. |
bato kariuh
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.11.15 08:44:00 -
[96] - Quote
Leigh Akiga wrote:I was reading a discussion about the current state of supercarriers on another board and I think the greater EVE community has a lot of perspective to offer this 'game within a game.' Rather than coloring the discussion with politics and personal interests I would just like to quote a couple posts that really highlight the current problems with supercapital proliferation and then have an intelligent discussion on the matter. wrote:Supercapitals were never designed around being something individuals progressed towards. They were supposed to be alliance level assets - extremely powerful, extremely useful, extremely resource intensive. The idea was that alliances would have a handful of supercarriers and one titan. That model was designed around an Eve that had far fewer sources of income and a lot less money circulating. Even their initial estimates were off pretty spectacularly as major alliances started fielding two, three and even four titans within a few months of their introduction.
Now there's a ton more money in game. At the alliance level you had people who controlled significant portions of the game's raw material (Tech) and the rental empires drawing vast amounts of liquid wealth from their serfs. Not only that, so much more money is available to the individual that an individual can realistically hope to own a supercapital ship if they've played for a year or two and want it. To be fair, that isn't most people - but if I'd felt the twisted desire to really gun for a supercarrier I could have done it within a few months.
Supercapitals were not designed around the idea that a group could put hundreds on the field. The advantage conferred by supercapitals is exponential, not linear. 20 supercarriers can form a remote rep chain that will tank anything but a major call to arms kind of fleet. With Titans you can essentially chose to wipe out as many dreads or carriers as you have titans in one shot. (A while back the problem was "Tracking Titans" - titan guns used to be able to track subcaps with some efficiency, so if you had 2-3 dozen you could set up a death ball that orbited an enemy fleet, ensuring that at least a few of the 5-8K DPS titans have a clean shot on a subcap)
KW- showed that the multiplicative advantage conferred by mass supercapitals is approaching its logical end state: you can now form a fleet that can't realistically be destroyed. It may be mathematically possible, but the node just can't handle it and you have the option of crashing the node when in danger. Hence people's disdain for the things. wrote:Using a fairly standard passive fit fleet aeon (assuming an erebus in system for armor bonus), each aeon tanks 21,515 dps per other aeon. With 20 aeons on field, that's 19 other aeons or 408,785 dps. A triple magstab 425mm megathron shooting javelin and dropping 3 gardes is 921 dps. You need 443 megathrons before you can even start breaking a super, at which point you need to chew through 57 million EHP. If you assume 800 megathrons, that's 328,797 dps, or 173 seconds to kill a single aeon, or half an hour in 10% tidi. To alpha one of those aeons off the field, you need 19534 megathrons, 4844 maelstroms, 1066 moros, or 592 arty naglfar. 31 Moros would be able to break the reps. A fleet of 50 moros would take at least 148 seconds to kill an aeon, and would lose at minimum 11 or 12 moros in doing so. There is also quite a manifesto and ensuing discussion here
Lol..
By other "forums" he means SomethingAwful forums home of the goons.
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3548888&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=591 http://i.imgur.com/fij6JuG.png
Goons are crying all over that thread about super carriers and PL/N3's usage.
CSM in this thread from Goons?
Another orchestrated attempt to rile up forum base. |
Janeway84
Masters Of Destiny Pride Before Fall
40
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 09:14:00 -
[97] - Quote
Spurty wrote:Don't nerf them, create new tech to deal with them.
EVE thrives on creativity from more, not less options!
+1 Make t3 Talos that can hit capitals even harder?
Going back a few steps to serious mode, what about making specilized Ewar capital ships for pvp? Like say upscaled recon ships, have neut, ecm, sensor damp, target painter, web bonused capital recon ships? Kind of breaks the word recon i guess but the need for counters against capital ships is heard every now and then.
Also Ccp could add back the doomsday device to titans? So they can blapp caps faster? Kind of like in some Rts games in network games where you had alot of A.i units struggling on the map in large numbers and then you go drop a big area of effect weapon and suddenly less lag |
mama guru
Thundercats The Initiative.
162
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 11:01:00 -
[98] - Quote
As the OP pointed out the problem is not any lack of subcap counters it's the sheer rediculousness of the dps and tank that they posess. You can't realistically take down 50 supers without an equal number of supers of your own, if you brought dreads you can take out that moron who brought a Wyvern but otherwise youre ******.
Anything but a complete normalisation of the capital and supercapital shipclasses is a waste of time. I could deal with 3-5 million EHP supers at the 4.5 bil pricepoint. Reduce their damage, make them smaller and more useful to individual pilots, let them dock and we're all set.
Carriers would also need a buff, a bigger dronebay and 20 fighters is a good start. ______
EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak. |
Skurja Volpar
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
64
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 11:25:00 -
[99] - Quote
Well, based on the vague small to big thing, I imagine we'll be seeing;
All Pirate faction > Recon,Logi,(hictors?) > Tech3 > Blops > Caps > Supercaps.
I remember about a year ago one of the rebalance lot said they expected tiercide to be complete in 2014 so my uninformed guess would winter xpac at the earliest.
Tbh it's probably best left until they have an actual legitimate plan for post-dominion nullsec or they'll just need tweaking all over again. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5158
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 13:14:00 -
[100] - Quote
Janeway84 wrote:Also Ccp could add back the doomsday device to titans? So they can blapp caps faster? Kind of like in some Rts games in network games where you had alot of A.i units struggling on the map in large numbers and then you go drop a big area of effect weapon and suddenly less lag aoe doomsday you heard it here first There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
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Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
229
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Posted - 2013.11.15 13:53:00 -
[101] - Quote
Ideas for fixing supers have been around for years. Here's my favorite:
I am not an alt of Chribba. |
PR0JECT 2501
Section Nine
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 13:58:00 -
[102] - Quote
How's about;
The inability to launch/use fighters while remote rep active? And changing capital remote reps so they can only be activated by overheating the mod, giving a period of use before it burns out and must be replaced.
Give titans a huge fuel upkeep of some-kind, 5-10 bil per month? They're fine as they are, but the 100's that are kept moth-balled until the bat-phone rings seems like the wrong idea. Supposed to be some-kind of iconic flag-ship right?
Problem is we're all meta-gaming immersion-killing b*tches that will always seek the proportional 'I win' button. Super-capitals are just another flavour. At least CCP stir the pot enough to stop the particular tastes of mathematical-loophole souring the palette too much.
But anyways; 0.0 life isn't supposed to be fair or fun, it's supposed to be a 2nd job run by the kind of nerd that is experiencing social authority/power for the first time and is making up for all those wedgy's in high-school. In the same way they stood no-chance against the bunch of jocks that shoved them upside-down in a locker, you will stand no chance against the indestructible super-cap blob. |
Treborr MintingtonJr
Quantum Reality R n D The Methodical Alliance
35
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Posted - 2013.11.15 14:12:00 -
[103] - Quote
Karrl Tian wrote:Blawrf McTaggart wrote:Spurty wrote:Don't nerf them, create new tech to deal with them... More stuff Add a thermal exhaust port that only a T1 frig can attack. This, please let it be this^
It would be the best mini game since hacking.
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MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1477
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 15:29:00 -
[104] - Quote
mama guru wrote:As the OP pointed out the problem is not any lack of subcap counters it's the sheer rediculousness of the dps and tank that they posess. You can't realistically take down 50 supers without an equal number of supers of your own, if you brought dreads you can take out that moron who brought a Wyvern but otherwise youre ******.
Anything but a complete normalisation of the capital and supercapital shipclasses is a waste of time. I could deal with 3-5 million EHP supers at the 4.5 bil pricepoint. Reduce their damage, make them smaller and more useful to individual pilots, let them dock and we're all set.
Carriers would also need a buff, a bigger dronebay and 20 fighters is a good start.
If you give them 20 fighters they will use 20 sentries. Carriers need to have thier drone bay and fighter bay separated. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1477
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 15:30:00 -
[105] - Quote
Treborr MintingtonJr wrote:
It would be the best mini game since hacking.
not sure if if serious. ..
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Mascha Tzash
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
98
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 15:46:00 -
[106] - Quote
Perhaps there are just too many of them. Would it help to make them easier to destroy? Would they be fielded anymore?
Perhaps they are too easy to move. Would it help to remove the jump drives and force them to use gates?
Perhaps it's too easy to field so much at one time? Would it help to Limit their use (e.g. 1 cap per 10 subcaps in fleet, 1 supercap per 5 caps in fleet)?
Perhaps they are too easy to build/Train into. Would it help raising the bar to get (into) them?
Perhaps it's too easy to crash a node with enough of them. Would it help to limit the overall amount to a number with wich no node can be brought down?
In my eyes the balance of production and destruction of these is somewhat out of balance. |
Xenien 0r181247
Warden's Ravens
5
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 16:18:00 -
[107] - Quote
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:Ideas for fixing supers have been around for years. Here's my favorite:
I like that one too |
Kiryen O'Bannon
Equal Opportunity Haterz H-K Industries
12
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 17:06:00 -
[108] - Quote
My suggestion would be to allow destroyers to fit capital torpedo launchers a la WWII destroyers. Not BB (BB = battleship; BS is what you hear on the evening news) like stealth bombers, but CAPITAL torpedos - or the appropriate capital gun module for other factions so as to avoid excessive missile crosstraining. Give them a massive reduction to PG/CPU so they can fit a full rack (very tightly), and maybe a tracking penalty when fitted with such modules so they can't easily insta-gank other ships (although I think the cost of capital guns would prevent excessive use of them anyhow).
Don't otherwise change the destroyer when fit with SMALL guns - leave it alone for that, but they could carry 7 or 8 of the larges. This would allow a large number of small, otherwise easily killed ships, to do much more damage to supercaps that have a hard time shooting them back - requiring other small ships to fend them off.
Destroyers also wouldn't have siege mode, leaving dreads well above them in firepower, and because they rely on mobility for defense. Also, I'd make it short range guns only for the DDs.
If destroyers are too light, maybe T1 cruisers could be used instead, or in addition. |
JamDunc
Team JK
103
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 22:54:00 -
[109] - Quote
Create a new cheapish ship that can do one thing and one thing alone.
Give a chance to cause Supercap to lose its EWAR immunity for XX time. Or maybe just make it so it can't recieve reps for XX seconds. |
Kiryen O'Bannon
Equal Opportunity Haterz H-K Industries
13
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 23:16:00 -
[110] - Quote
Or create a new EWAR that specifically interrupts remote repairs.. maybe remote boosting as well. |
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MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1480
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 23:27:00 -
[111] - Quote
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:Or create a new EWAR that specifically interrupts remote repairs.. maybe remote boosting as well.
Ok a deployable structure like mobile cyno jammers that disable remote assist mods within 100km radius. Lasts 5 min then disactivates There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
MestariBation
Fistful of Finns Bearf0rce One
33
|
Posted - 2013.11.15 23:34:00 -
[112] - Quote
THIS THREAD IS NOW IN FULL R3TARD MODE! Send me isk im poor |
Bandalon
Occidendi Apocalypse Now.
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.16 00:12:00 -
[113] - Quote
The issue isnt their EHP or DPS, it's their ability to be blobbed on the battlefield instantly or with a few mids.
The game needs to break their power-projection abilities, NOT their EHP/ DPS
Basically: reduce jumping ability by 50% and make it take 90% cap to jump @ max skills.
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MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1480
|
Posted - 2013.11.16 00:22:00 -
[114] - Quote
Bandalon wrote:The issue isnt their EHP or DPS, it's their ability to be blobbed on the battlefield instantly or with a few mids.
The game needs to break their power-projection abilities, NOT their EHP/ DPS
Basically: reduce jumping ability by 50% and make it take 90% cap to jump @ max skills.
i wonder how the mobile cyno jammer will affect future fleet fights?
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5160
|
Posted - 2013.11.16 00:49:00 -
[115] - Quote
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:My suggestion would be to allow destroyers to fit capital torpedo launchers a la WWII destroyers. Not BB (BB = battleship; BS is what you hear on the evening news) like stealth bombers, but CAPITAL torpedos - or the appropriate capital gun module for other factions so as to avoid excessive missile crosstraining. Give them a massive reduction to PG/CPU so they can fit a full rack (very tightly), and maybe a tracking penalty when fitted with such modules so they can't easily insta-gank other ships (although I think the cost of capital guns would prevent excessive use of them anyhow).
Don't otherwise change the destroyer when fit with SMALL guns - leave it alone for that, but they could carry 7 or 8 of the larges. This would allow a large number of small, otherwise easily killed ships, to do much more damage to supercaps that have a hard time shooting them back - requiring other small ships to fend them off.
Destroyers also wouldn't have siege mode, leaving dreads well above them in firepower, and because they rely on mobility for defense. Also, I'd make it short range guns only for the DDs.
If destroyers are too light, maybe T1 cruisers could be used instead, or in addition. much like normal torps, capital torps are pretty bad on their intended platform for shooting non-structures There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Col Arran
Devils Diciples League of Infamy
156
|
Posted - 2013.11.16 01:06:00 -
[116] - Quote
Oh I have an idea for "fixing" supercaps, turn all Aeons in the game into Archons, all Avatars into Revelations and so on with all the races.
Supercap proliferation fixed I'll be submitting my resume within the hour CCP so we can get this rolling. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
4664
|
Posted - 2013.11.16 02:06:00 -
[117] - Quote
octahexx Charante wrote:so much more money is available to the individual that an individual can realistically hope to own a supercapital ship if they've played for a year or two and want it.
???
Please show me a 2year old toon with an effective super and how he grinded the isk for it.
I play since less than 4 years and I could afford my fleet of SCs. Making ISK is ~hard~ Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5160
|
Posted - 2013.11.16 03:54:00 -
[118] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:octahexx Charante wrote:so much more money is available to the individual that an individual can realistically hope to own a supercapital ship if they've played for a year or two and want it.
???
Please show me a 2year old toon with an effective super and how he grinded the isk for it.
I play since less than 4 years and I could afford my fleet of SCs. Making ISK is ~hard~ i'm about 2 years and have enough for a supercarrier, already got the pilot up to alliance requirements
grr, it's a blobber There are no goons. The goons' 0.0 dream is over.
"Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action." ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
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