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ConranAntoni
Empyrean Warriors Insidious Empire
108
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Posted - 2013.11.20 05:56:00 -
[121] - Quote
Ban thread, gas OP.
Holy **** these threads get so bad with their tortured logic I almost want to read EN24. |
supernova ranger
The End of Eternity Ad-Astra
82
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Posted - 2013.11.20 06:16:00 -
[122] - Quote
+1
You can't actively play the game while you have learning implants in, your too big of a target so you sit there
With the one year pay off for +5 implants it's really only something long standing players living in high/low can use isk effectively.
Players should not waste time and resources on learning skills/ items and should instead be focusing entirely on the game play. |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
707
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Posted - 2013.11.20 06:47:00 -
[123] - Quote
It totaly makes sense. +1 OP G££ <= Me |
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade Space Wolves Alliance
68
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Posted - 2013.11.20 09:28:00 -
[124] - Quote
ConranAntoni wrote:Ban thread, gas OP.
Holy **** these threads get so bad with their tortured logic I almost want to read EN24.
Please explain what is wrong with the OP's logic. Otherwise you are offering nothing to the discussion. |
Cydelle Abraham
Aurora Armaments Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
0
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Posted - 2013.11.20 10:13:00 -
[125] - Quote
+1 from me |
Reiisha
Evolution
399
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Posted - 2013.11.20 13:08:00 -
[126] - Quote
This is not a bad idea actually, even though i've got a set of +5's myself. Removing those implants would make PvP a bit more accessible as well, it might help to get more people involved in low- and nullsec activities since 'the burden of cost' or the 'loss of training time' isn't an issue anymore.
On the other hand - And this is what few people have commented on so far - It does beg the question on whether to even keep working with attributes at all, since this pretty much trivializes them even more than the remap feature did. If learning implants are removed, attributes need to be looked at. Maybe they need a totally different function.
Personally i'm actually for giving all races a fixed attribute bonus, +5 in total (not more than +7) to certain attritbutes to at least give some meaning to race and attributes... Whether or not implants are removed.
If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all... |
Clementina
Coreli Corporation
97
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Posted - 2013.11.20 15:24:00 -
[127] - Quote
I came expecting a very bad idea, but reading it it actually looks like a somewhat good idea. I'm not sure I actually support it, but it does deserve consideration and I gave the poster a like.
Although implementing this idea would probably take a rethinking of what attributes should mean with respect to the game. |
LOL56
Galactic Express Insidious Empire
60
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Posted - 2013.11.20 15:50:00 -
[128] - Quote
I normally PvP with +3s or +4s in my head. most of the people in this thread need to HTFU. |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
388
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Posted - 2013.11.20 15:54:00 -
[129] - Quote
Reiisha wrote:Personally i'm actually for giving all races a fixed attribute bonus, +5 in total (not more than +7) to certain attritbutes to at least give some meaning to race and attributes... Whether or not implants are removed. This is what CCP got rid of and equalized attributes across races/bloodlines. If you return this you'll see another wave of "Caldari Achura Monk" supermacy. Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |
Lord Battlestar
CALIMA COLLABORATIVE Atrox Urbanis Respublique Abundatia
105
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Posted - 2013.11.20 19:11:00 -
[130] - Quote
I kind of like the idea. I once podded myself by blowing a huge fart. |
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Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
987
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Posted - 2013.11.20 19:44:00 -
[131] - Quote
such a hard choice
I have a list of things I want to do ... most of those things revolve around skill based access
which brings me to my choice statement
do I want to be able to achieve those ambitions in 900 or more days do I want to be able to achieve those ambitions in 800 or less days
so no, it's not really a choice at all clearly I want the less than 800 days option therefore I need learning implants to stay to achieve my goals in a timely fashion |
Sun-Tugo Drovotet
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2013.11.28 16:59:00 -
[132] - Quote
Kirkwood Ross wrote:Elsbeth Taron wrote:I've been thinking of players going to a medical station and paying isk to have one of their base attributes bumped permanently by +1. Each bump becomes much more expensive to do; the equivalent of +5 implant being for the super-rich only.
This creates an isk sink.
This means people don't need to switch clones.
This means people don't lose the bonus when they're podded, removing the risk-aversion stuff from play.
This removes learning implants from play, leaving implants to boost abilities. PvPers can have 10 combat-oriented implants in their heads, researchers can have 10 scientific implants, etc..
Naturally those wearing currently +5 implants will howl at the notion of losing this boost until they can pay for it, but no one said the game was fair. This topic is about getting people out of the stations and into space; this idea may help. I'd be willing to dump billions into this idea if I can keep my old +5s in addition to the stat bonus. As the title of the topic is about removing implants from the game you just notified everyone as to your poor comprehension of the written word. Nice! Are you the one who thinks only virgins fly ships in nulsec? |
Sun-Tugo Drovotet
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2013.11.28 17:03:00 -
[133] - Quote
Reiisha wrote:This is not a bad idea actually, even though i've got a set of +5's myself. Removing those implants would make PvP a bit more accessible as well, it might help to get more people involved in low- and nullsec activities since 'the burden of cost' or the 'loss of training time' isn't an issue anymore.
On the other hand - And this is what few people have commented on so far - It does beg the question on whether to even keep working with attributes at all, since this pretty much trivializes them even more than the remap feature did. If learning implants are removed, attributes need to be looked at. Maybe they need a totally different function.
Personally i'm actually for giving all races a fixed attribute bonus, +5 in total (not more than +7) to certain attritbutes to at least give some meaning to race and attributes... Whether or not implants are removed. A long time ago the four races were different, but there were whines from players about how they wanted to do stuff that other races found easier and "it's not fair!!!" so the differences were removed. I'm all for the races being different, for exactly the reason you give: making it mean something. |
Kane Fenris
NWP
124
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Posted - 2013.11.28 18:52:00 -
[134] - Quote
SOL Ranger wrote:
- They benefit the rich most.
- They benefit veterans the most.
name one part of the game where above is not the case....
you have a tradeoff between learning an money if your hanging in null youll have tradeoff between loosing much isk or learning slower.
you have tradeoff between sets (+3 +bonus) or pure learning those implant would loose one of their drawbacks if youd make a baseline ....
to me learning implants are a vital isk sink in the game. this game hase better moneysink than most mmo but if it needs even more not less.
|
Fourteen Maken
State Protectorate Caldari State
85
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Posted - 2013.11.28 19:31:00 -
[135] - Quote
It might make it harder for new players to catch up though so I'm not sure I like it |
Quontor Zarrkos
4U Services Inc. Upholders
26
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Posted - 2013.11.28 20:02:00 -
[136] - Quote
I'm all for this, would remove the requirement of training cybernetics IV/V just to make sure you train faster and then fly around in expensive pods (I would bring a sabre guys but I'm in this clone....)
Having recently moved to wormholes myself and lost the ability to use jump clones, this would be a major improvement to our quality of life. |
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
582
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 22:30:00 -
[137] - Quote
SOL Ranger wrote:This has been presented several times in the past, I'm now hoping you(CCP) could share your thoughts on the subject if it is an action you feel makes sense or if you are against it. I'm sure you developers are fully aware of the problems concerning learning implants but I'll list some quite obvious effects they bring about.
- They benefit the inactive/offline the most.
- They benefit station campers the most.
- They benefit carebears the most.
- They benefit the rich most.
- They benefit veterans the most.
- They suffer the same downsides as did learning skills.
- They suffer the additional downside of costing much thus not only do you need to focus your skills on cyber V first but you also need to save up for the implants immediately after as well, or fall behind.
- You continually lose potential SP when actively playing the game with purpose built implants rather than pure learning implants.
Quite often I'm seeing myself staying docked and closing the client to train rather than play because I CBA. to change clone into less optimal learning implants and lose hours, possibly even days worth of SP because of that one or several gaming sessions. Those who actually decide to go out and play, most notably interact in PvP and pod each other, those are the ones who suffer the real consequences, not only do they lose SP due to almost never having V's plugged in but they lose their IV's or III's when their pods pop. It makes little sense for a game supposed to promote PvP and yet punish those who then participate in it the most. It is not an interesting nor exciting choice deciding to either play and lose efficiency or staying offline or docked while benefiting more, essentially playing 'optimally' when not playing.What could be done is to remove the learning implants and make '+3 implants' baseline, people will rage about this but it's a reasonable suggestion, +5's made baseline might be just as fine a solution, I'm not sure, I'm just sure the learning implants must be removed. Bottom line: Rich inactive veteran station hugging carebears benefit the mostPoor active newbie proactive PvP'ers suffer the most[EDIT] I see some are asking what about Slaves/Crystals etc, the idea is to merely strip the learning attributes from all those implants.
why don't you just get rid of skills too while you are at at it and do some more dumbing down of the game, better yet get rid of characters too, no more clones as they only benefit those people with skill points, which we wont need anymore when characters are gone and we can all fly every ship and use every item without having to train for it. When you get killed and your ship blows up you'll just magically re-appear in the last station you docked at, all of which wrecks the flavour of eve. This is where changes like this are headed so a big fat no from me.
Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction... |
Kane Fenris
NWP
124
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 22:30:00 -
[138] - Quote
Quontor Zarrkos wrote:I'm all for this, would remove the requirement of training cybernetics IV/V just to make sure you train faster and then fly around in expensive pods (I would bring a sabre guys but I'm in this clone....)
Having recently moved to wormholes myself and lost the ability to use jump clones, this would be a major improvement to our quality of life.
nobody trains V just fpor the learning it takes a year of training to be worth it you train V only for HG crystal etc...
cant you use clone facilitys and or rorqal clone bays inside of a wh? never lived in one |
Yaturi
The Scope Gallente Federation
55
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Posted - 2013.11.29 03:41:00 -
[139] - Quote
Should have gotten rid of them like ******* yesterday |
Aliventi
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
605
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Posted - 2013.12.17 21:51:00 -
[140] - Quote
Bump. This is too great of an idea to be this buried. "tbh most people don't care about removing local from highsec. They want it gone from nullsec. I want to be able to solo roam hunt without everyone knowing I am there without them actually seeing me jump through the gate. Effortless intel is bad." ~Me |
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FightingMoose
Norse'Storm Battle Group
19
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Posted - 2013.12.17 23:51:00 -
[141] - Quote
LOL56 wrote:I normally PvP with +3s or +4s in my head. most of the people in this thread need to HTFU.
So do I, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't enjoy saving 100mm every time I lose a pod.
I think this makes sense. Players shouldn't have to make the trade-off between getting a slight edge during PVP and being able to learn things. It makes sense to have the attribute remap be the only thing that affects training times. Like many other people in this thread, I came into it assuming I'd be raging about the dumb noob. But learning implants are really very similar to the learning skills. Proud owner of an Ibis. |
Malphas Inanis
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
0
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Posted - 2013.12.18 01:20:00 -
[142] - Quote
I agree with this thread. As a newer player it is hard to loose implants as I feel I am falling behind in training and this caused me to not take part in alot of activities for along time!
+1 |
Wapu Kashuken
Serenity Rising LLC Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
54
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 01:49:00 -
[143] - Quote
No. Actions have consequence. ALL ACTIONS. To include PvP.
Essentially you are crying to make PvP less risky with less to loose.
How is this different from HS care-bears whining to make their life entirely risk-averse?
I PvvE, PvP (badly), loose stuff at a regular pace, kill things/players on occasion and I have no issue with the current mechanics and consequences of implants and PvP. I don't think the game should be dummied down so that you won't have to worry about what hangar you are forced to hang in or what style of game play you are choosing at the moment. |
Grenn Putubi
Swag Co. SWAG Co
49
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Posted - 2013.12.18 02:02:00 -
[144] - Quote
I don't mind paying for implants, but the fact that I choose to pay for +5s definitely affects what I choose to do in the game. If I know I'm going to be pvping or in a dangerous area I'll clone jump to something with +3s, but the decision to do so always stings because I know I'm slowing down my skill progression and I avoid doing so as much as possible.
If I didn't have to worry about implants so much I'd be much happier to fly off to pvp or join a militia for some FW. I'm not sure I'd advocate their removal from the game, but I would certainly love to see them be cheaper than they are. Perhaps with the recent implementation of player made implants the next step could be to introduce BPCs for the learning implants on the LP stores so players could have more control over how much they cost us? |
Jack Miton
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
2503
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Posted - 2013.12.18 02:23:00 -
[145] - Quote
No thanks. I can fit and afford +5s pretty easily but I dont fit them. Why? Because I run pirate implants for their benefit at the cost of a +2 training speed.
Bottom line is that learning implants are fine and the fact that jump clones exist make this debate a non issue. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ |
Coyote Laughing
2
|
Posted - 2013.12.18 02:24:00 -
[146] - Quote
I would like to see a modification to the old learning skills:
Allow people a skill that gives you a "virtual" attribute bonus (whichever is better).
This should be an investment in training time that has a long term return, for those who are frequently podded.
Also, consider factoring in skillwires to the training time of a skill, say five percent longer per +1% implant bonus.
This will discourage people from putting in implants right away, waiting until they have trained it to V first. l8r \o/ |
Aliventi
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
624
|
Posted - 2013.12.28 03:17:00 -
[147] - Quote
CCP should check this idea out. "tbh most people don't care about removing local from highsec. They want it gone from nullsec. I want to be able to solo roam hunt without everyone knowing I am there without them actually seeing me jump through the gate. Effortless intel is bad." ~Me |
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
388
|
Posted - 2013.12.28 07:22:00 -
[148] - Quote
Sorry guys but I'm opposed to this idea in general. If a player wants to invest in an implant for increased sp/hr and present himself with a larger isk cost when podded, he/she should have that option. If the player chooses to stay docked to maximize this sp/hr bonus, well, that also is an option, but the game shouldn't be balanced around those individuals who choose to stay docked. And learning certainly shouldn't be set at some +3 rate. What an insult to everyone running +4 and +5 implants that would be.
We should not be advocating the removal of options. Players have choices. It is up to them to make wise choices and to benefit or not benefit as a result. If you don't want to pvp with implants, don't, but don't demand that all learning boosts be eradicated because it would benefit your game. I see far too many topics that go: afk cloaking is bad, ccp remove afk cloaking; local chat is bad, ccp remove local chat; learning implants are bad, ccp remove learning implants; etc, etc, etc. Where does this end?
I was going to suggest that the learning bonus could be separated from the tactical bonus and players could choose either/or like with cerebral accelerators, but that wouldn't even matter. According to the logic on display here, if any learning boost is made available, players will avoid pvp in favor of increased sp/hr. Which, imo, seems a bit ridiculous.
To sum up, I'll never be an advocate of removing options to save players from making choices. EVE is supposed to be a complex game of decisions/consequences and we should demand it remain that way.
imo.
YK "Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines." |
Anarkia Evangel
Section 496
1
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Posted - 2013.12.28 21:25:00 -
[149] - Quote
I really like this idea, and agree with most points being said, we want to encourage people to undock. From my point of view, this isk isn't the problem the loss of learning is.
I would much prefer to use pirate implants, a lot more expensive than +5s, but pvping in anything less that 4+ doesn't make sense to me, I would be in low grades all the time for pvp if they didn't have such low attribute points.
I even think increasing implant slots by 5 would be a good idea, allow people to mix attribute with pirate. |
Seranova Farreach
577
|
Posted - 2013.12.28 23:15:00 -
[150] - Quote
i can see the benefits and draw backs. i would pvp more if i didnt have to jumpclone to a fresh clone.
i disagree with the vets benefit/hug the most.. they need the implants the most cause most all the skills they have left are the x10 and above skills and those take far too much time.
maybe remove learning from the specialist implants (crystals halo talon slave....)
then bring in the cerebral accelerators for every one not limited to age of the character and make them not bound to 1 single clone so they wont be removed when you get podded. this will help and also encourage people to pvp more i think. _______________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg
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