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Gildon
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Posted - 2003.09.03 15:41:00 -
[1]
These new changes really need to be thought out more.
Latest version of balancing for large weapons - and Battleships. Everyone gets extra, Caldari gets nothing
Med slots (shield hardeners) get nerfed hard in chaos.
Missiles/Raven - completely useless still (no love where its badly needed)
How about balance instead of nerf?
Examples? Sure - Re-look at the cap usage on the hardeners, make em painful to use instead of tiny amounts of energy. (Yes you can be a shield tank, but NO you can't do much more)
Missiles - how about fixing them. Making them usefull? How many Ravens you see flying around? Yeah - exactly.
Bonus/Penalty - I'd like to see bonuses and penalties for flying non-race type ships. Otherwise whats the point of races? Specially now that everyone flies everything. Training another races ships should take VERY VERY long.
Seriously Tomb - balancing/nerfing modules at the level you are without fixing many of the 'bigger' problems just causes more.
I love this game - but how about creative solutions.
Gil
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Gildon
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Posted - 2003.09.03 15:45:00 -
[2]
p.s. Tomb - sorry for the 'tone'
Just getting frustrated with the way things are being changed.
I know your trying to do what's best.
G
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Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.09.03 15:48:00 -
[3]
hate caldari? caldari ships are the top power of the universe
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.03 15:53:00 -
[4]
 Quote:
Latest version of balancing for large weapons - and Battleships. Everyone gets extra, Caldari gets nothing
Raven got an extra low slot, too.
Quote:
Med slots (shield hardeners) get nerfed hard in chaos.
Believe it or not, med slots are for other things than SH as well.
Quote:
Missiles/Raven - completely useless still (no love where its badly needed)
 er.. Have you bothered in the last days to log into chaos and try araven with 6 torp launchers? No? Thought so...
Quote:
Bonus/Penalty - I'd like to see bonuses and penalties for flying non-race type ships. Otherwise whats the point of races? Specially now that everyone flies everything. Training another races ships should take VERY VERY long.
Yeah, right. While I would have agreed to that comment at the launch of Eve it's now far far too late to implement those changes. How would you like it if you had invested weeks to months to train for other races ships and suddenly find out that that training was for nothing?
free speech not allowed here |
Karmic
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Posted - 2003.09.03 15:55:00 -
[5]
I wouldn't presume to speak for the gentleman in question myself. But I don't think is is a deliberate attempt to sabotage Caldari ships.
Missile - Please check out the patch forum etc because TomB from what is posted on there is attempting to give missiles the lurving they require.
Shield Hardeners - Well personally I think this is a good thing shield hardeners were just too good as a lvl 1 tech item , now the bonuses from having better tech shield hardeners could be better. Would you pefere they remove them from the game ? 40% resistance is better than a kick in the face.
Regards
Karmic
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dalman
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Posted - 2003.09.03 15:58:00 -
[6]
Quote:
Quote:
Missiles/Raven - completely useless still (no love where its badly needed)
er.. Have you bothered in the last days to log into chaos and try araven with 6 torp launchers? No? Thought so...
Problem is that you has missed some things. Cruise missiles are supposed to be the top missile, not torps. And this will be the case, since Torps will once more be a really slow missile.
So, yes, I really whine about missiles.(And don't forget that missile users CAN'T USE DRONES!)
But the shield hardener nerf is ok.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.03 16:04:00 -
[7]
Granted, but missles are everything, but not useless at chaos atm.
free speech not allowed here |
darth solo
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Posted - 2003.09.03 16:04:00 -
[8]
Think people are getting distracted for the main issue here.
I dont think its very cool that they just change setting on items, we train skills up, only to watch them get changed with every patch.
Say maybe, you have been seeing how amazing scorpions are, being fitted with hardeners makes them a great ship, so you save up and buy a scorp, then they change hardeners.
I always seem to be 1 stage behind in this game, 1 weapon is great and the after the patch, it sucks.
I do see the problem with a game like this though, it must be a nightmare to balance items out, so i do pitty them, they will never make everyone happy.
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dalman
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Posted - 2003.09.03 16:12:00 -
[9]
Quote:
Granted, but missles are everything, but not useless at chaos atm.
As I said:
1. Torps will get a low speed again, so you'll want to use cruise missiles = less damage.
2. As a missile user, you can't use drones. And that's a whopping 90 damage every 2 seconds that you can't use.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Dragon Emperor
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Posted - 2003.09.03 16:15:00 -
[10]
Quote:
Quote:
Granted, but missles are everything, but not useless at chaos atm.
As I said:
1. Torps will get a low speed again, so you'll want to use cruise missiles = less damage.
2. As a missile user, you can't use drones. And that's a whopping 90 damage every 2 seconds that you can't use.
stay in 20km, completely shut your target down then do whatever you like
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Gildon
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Posted - 2003.09.03 16:18:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Gildon on 03/09/2003 16:20:46
Ok - good discussion.
Raven 6 torp launchers on chaos - lets see thats what 20k X 6. (PER volley).
Then go get coffee and hope they hit - and hope they aren't picked off, and hope the enemy doesn't use defenders, and hope they dont just MISS. (during flight time I'm reading a book and taking a bath from beams/hybrids/projectiles)
I can do that much in 2 rounds with my Tac's - and not worry about any cost. (THAT is not balance)
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Shield hardener nerf - no it is NOT ok. You cannot balance this game by nerfing module by module.
My suggestion was leave the effects, but make the usage higher. YOU SHOULD be able to have a shield tank - but that SHOULD leave you little else power to do other stuff - THAT is balance.
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Caldari ships are the bomb now? 1 on 1 properly outfitted (ANY) ship is. Big engagements, totally different issue. Again that is why they should CAREFULLY consider nerfing at the module level.
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Agreed - almost impossible to make everyone happy - and point on the Giving the raven an extra low, missed that.
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My point here again isn't to just say
"oh look that is too powerful, lets crush it"
I'd much more have them be creative.
Examples again you say? sure -
Shield hardeners are based on SKILL (I mean duration based skills are lame anyhow) HEY lets spend 9 days to have 5% more duration on weapon disruptor.... even though its just as effective at skill level 1 (on autorepeat)
Hardeners TOP OUT at 70, but at skill 1 they are 20, then 30 etc. That makes people pay for the skills to use em. (thats more creative - and then look at cap usage) Not complete and utter nerfdom.
Maybe even ask us up front some ideas - (or is that what TOMB is doing, it looks like 'hey we crushed hardeners enjoy')
Gil
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Lartfor
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Posted - 2003.09.03 16:21:00 -
[12]
Quote:
Problem is that you has missed some things. Cruise missiles are supposed to be the top missile, not torps. And this will be the case, since Torps will once more be a really slow missile.
So, yes, I really whine about missiles.(And don't forget that missile users CAN'T USE DRONES!)
But the shield hardener nerf is ok.
Cruise missles and torps are different, cruise missles are not supose to be the "top of the line, end all be all missles" Torps dumb fire, and do more dmg, cruise missles track and still do allot of dmg. As for drones... they are not as effective in the BS vs BS realm of combat.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.03 16:27:00 -
[13]
Quote:
Raven 6 torp launchers on chaos - lets see thats what 20k X 6. (PER volley).
Then go get coffee and hope they hit - and hope they aren't picked off, and hope the enemy doesn't use defenders, and hope they dont just MISS. (during flight time I'm reading a book and taking a bath from beams/hybrids/projectiles)
I can do that much in 2 rounds with my Tac's - and not worry about any cost. (THAT is not balance)
Please do us a favour and test you oh-so-weak torps on chaos and don't waste our time - because everything in this quote just show how utterly completly clueless you are.
- TomB said that missle costs (and size) will decrease greatly in the next chaos update.
- Torps are now travelling with up to 2000 m/s and are able to hit freaking everything. Frigs up to MWD'ed BS.
So, next time when someone is telling you to go to chaos and look at things there DO IT. And not continue to whine about things you have no clue of.
free speech not allowed here |
dalman
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Posted - 2003.09.03 16:30:00 -
[14]
Edited by: dalman on 03/09/2003 16:31:50
Quote:
Quote:
Problem is that you has missed some things. Cruise missiles are supposed to be the top missile, not torps. And this will be the case, since Torps will once more be a really slow missile.
So, yes, I really whine about missiles.(And don't forget that missile users CAN'T USE DRONES!)
But the shield hardener nerf is ok.
Cruise missles and torps are different, cruise missles are not supose to be the "top of the line, end all be all missles" Torps dumb fire, and do more dmg, cruise missles track and still do allot of dmg. As for drones... they are not as effective in the BS vs BS realm of combat.
Well yes, the drones don't affect battleships that much. But you won't find the gate campers without thier drones out .
And you are a bit wrong. Torpedos ARE guided, their description is wrong(they just have worse agility than cruise missiles). And currently they go 2000 m/s on chaos, and will always hit a battleship. That's why the other guys say they are now useful. However, that speed will be lowered again... So with the boost to turret damage and nerf of hardeners, the fight will already be over before your torps hit the target.
edit
Ana Khouri, read what I said: TomB has said the speed on torpedos will be seriously lowered again.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Gildon
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Posted - 2003.09.03 16:35:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Gildon on 03/09/2003 16:36:40
Ana - the 'clueless and personal comments are for playgrounds'
What is going to be in the NEXT update - cannot be tested until its THERE. So please dont use 'planned' stuff as if it already exists.
Also reread what I was talking about, I'm talking - time - damage - cost.
I'm also talking about you can take OUT incoming missiles/torps - you cannot take out incoming fire from other ships (and hardeners/shields work against all types of damage)
Yes I play chaos a lot to understand what to do with my mains.
--------------------------------------------
Torps are guided - and the speed increases are very nice.
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.03 16:39:00 -
[16]
Yes, but I strongly doubt to will be near at the crawling 300 m/s. I think we can agree that torps are too strong on chaos atm and need a reduction. Not neccessarily in speed, though, but in agility. But TomB seems to be unable to make it that way.
And it is quite obvious the Gildon is whining how the torps are at Tranq atm - or have you seen any problems with missles missing on chaos? That is fixed there. He has absolutly now clue how things are on chaos. He is whining about one change but is in complete ignorance of the other.
And even if torps are reduced to 500 ms as weapons against immobile/webbed ships (not that that would be neccessarily bad) cruises are still pretty good FAST damage dealers. On chaos.
free speech not allowed here |
Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.03 16:46:00 -
[17]
Then - please - why are you then whining about torps traveling to long? 2000 ms? Or not hitting? Hello?
And, yes, defenders can take out torps. But a Mega with 2 defender launchers will perhaps canel out 2 of 6 torp/cruise launchers of a raven.
And about there isn't something which take out turret damage - it is. It's called "moving". Mount a MWD and fly a straight line in front of your target and laugh as its tachyons/rails tracking cannot keep up with your speed. Mount 2 tracking inhibitors in your med slots and laugh even louder as even turrets with previously good tracking cannot hit a planet now, nevermind your fast moving ship.
free speech not allowed here |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.09.03 16:47:00 -
[18]
Swap Torpedoes with Cruise Missles. Make Torpedoes the Rank5 skill. Problem solved.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Gildon
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Posted - 2003.09.03 16:52:00 -
[19]
Ana seriously read the entire post.
Chaos <> TQ
What is on Chaos doesn't NOT mean its going live.
My quest is for more creative solutions instead of nerfing. FOR THE POPULACE missiles are horribly under-utilized (TQ) and are at least being looked at.
Also, missiles were OVER-POWERED in BETA, not that you would know, and then HORRIBLY nerfed for launch.
THAT EXACT thing is what I'm asking TOMB to stop doing.
READ the whole post - I bet you copy the back cover of books for your book reports 
G
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.03 17:07:00 -
[20]
I fear I cannot really follow you. I'm beginning to fear you complety mix the chaos and tranquility situation together and pick those thing which you like from that mix.
Let me pick your first post apart - again -as you asked.
Quote:
Latest version of balancing for large weapons - and Battleships. Everyone gets extra, Caldari gets nothing
FALSE - Raven got a low slot as all other lvl2 BS. No, it didn't got a cpu upgrade - but it had already the biggest CPU of all lvl2 BS.
Quote:
Missiles/Raven - completely useless still (no love where its badly needed)
FALSE - Trops and Cruises are pretty usefull on Chaos. No, they are not better than turrets - but they are not meant to be either. Turrets need a lot more supporting skils as missles.
Quote:
Missiles - how about fixing them. Making them usefull? How many Ravens you see flying around? Yeah - exactly.
FALSE - There are a lot of ravens flying on chaos. Missles - see above.
And, yes, those changes are not on the live server atm. But they are on chaos. And most are there to stay. And ATM missles are pretty good on chaos. You cannot widly mix the situation on tranq and chaos.
So, please, can you save your whining if they reduce them too much and not now?
free speech not allowed here |
Gildon
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Posted - 2003.09.03 17:13:00 -
[21]
Chaos <> TQ
Chaos <> what WILL BE TQ
K thanks
G
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Ana Khouri
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Posted - 2003.09.03 17:15:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Ana Khouri on 03/09/2003 17:18:05
Your whinging -> situation on tranq
Your comments on the situation on chaos -> all wrong
situation on chaos -> soon situation in tranq
Your attitude
free speech not allowed here |
Darth Maul
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Posted - 2003.09.03 17:25:00 -
[23]
I agree with Ana... you are totally clueless about the new missles on chaos judging from what you say. Missles are soooo damn ungodly uber right now you'd have to a fool to not see it.
We all agree that missles needed some lovin.. and they did.. but in typical CCP fashion everything with them is either Gimp or Uber.. nothing inbetween.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2003.09.03 18:05:00 -
[24]
The shield hardener nerf will hurt everyone. The scorpion is one of the ships it will hurt the least. It has the mid slots to now run 2x of each type of hardener, whereas no other ship will.
The issue is the way modules stack, not shield hardeners in and of themselves.
And caldari ships will become better once all the missile problems get workedout. They are making good progress on chaos.
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John Zeppe
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Posted - 2003.09.03 18:06:00 -
[25]
"situation on chaos -> soon situation in tranq"
Wrong. Maybe, maybe not. In this case, not, since the torps will get a speed nerf.
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Beseb
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Posted - 2003.09.03 19:05:00 -
[26]
Gildon, I have to think you are intentionally being dense. Obviously Chaos!=Tranq. So what?
Right now, missles are infintely more effective on Chaos, and that is the pre-cursor of what we will see go live. Every single one of your statements is already addressed in active patching. Why not test and comment on them?
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Gildon
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Posted - 2003.09.03 19:38:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Gildon on 03/09/2003 19:38:48
Actually no Beseb
MY FIRST LINE - in my FIRST POST was pretty clear :) (well for most at least)
I was trying to enlighten Ana that what we see on Chaos isn't what WILL be on TQ (It's what MAY BE)
Also, my post isn't actually about MISSILES in general, its about the way modules and items are being balanced.
First they are TOO powerful, then nerfed to lameville, then reintroduced (MISSILES is my example)
Other examples, TAC's, Hardeners, Invul shields etc. etc.
MY POST is about using creative solutions, not nerf bat.
My examples are in posts before - It's best to ignore Ana since all her examples on a DEV/TEST server and aren't relevant to EVE
(yes they are being worked on, but again THAT wasn't the point) Ana needs to learn to read the WHOLE post.
IT ISN"T ABOUT MISSILES
G
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NTRabbit
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Posted - 2003.09.03 23:41:00 -
[28]
just ignore this gildon guy ana, he is deliberately trolling for flames and arguments. Best thing is to just let him go, he is well and truely on his own.
--------
#eve-online irc.stratics.com - Former official IRC channel (Legacy)
#eve-online irc.coldfront.net - Official Unofficial IRC channel
WE R 4TW! |
Lady Clovis
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Posted - 2003.09.04 11:49:00 -
[29]
Gildon, i agree with you now, but why are you so inconsistant??
Just admit your post was woolheaded and now you are trying to turn it around, twist and turn boyo, but the evidence goes along the thread right to your original pitiful post.
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Dont Hold Back - Tell It How It Is
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.09.04 12:19:00 -
[30]
"Cruise missles and torps are different, cruise missles are not supose to be the "top of the line, end all be all missles"
... I think you're mistaken; just check the missile descriptions, it seems at least the original plans for the cruise missiles were to make them the most effective:
[paradise] "Extra heavy assault missile. The mother of all missiles, the Paradise delivers a tremendous payload, guaranteed to get its victims acquainted with their personal god in a quick, but painful manner."
this also explains the pre-requirement of launcher operation lvl.5 for them, as opposed to torpedoes with their requirement of lvl.4...
The torpedoes are supposed to do more damage, but that while being dumb enough to make them less effective than cruise missiles. As currently the torpedoes are the fastest and as good at hitting targets as the cruise missiles, 'tis not the case.... (haven't checked 1195 yet though, maybe it changed)
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