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Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
407
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Posted - 2013.11.24 11:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
i was looking and the weapons them selves vs training in missiles. torpedos are different from cruise, yet to get to torpedos, you need light missiles and heavy missiles. thats like me training light auto cannons, heavy auto cannons and then loading tachyons in my training cue.
to me, the missile line should require missile training, the torpedo line should require rockets and hams. we gunners have 6 lines to train. 2 specs in each projectiles, energy, and hybrids while missiles only have to train lights then heavies and can train what ever after that. guided and dumb fired are 2 different weapon systems and should be trained accordingly. light, heavies and cruise (and their specs) vs rockets, hams and torps (and their specs).
further more...once we train lazor rank 5, we have to choose to spec in close range or long range to use the t2 version. why do missiles NOT have to train both as well?
the way it should be is one trains rockets to 5 then either rage spec OR javelin spec. one shouldnt be able to use either and gain damage bonuses when one isnt trained in the details of how to use "close in missiles" vs "long range missiles (or rockets)". they are different weapons (that share a launcher). one needs training in when to shoot for "best effect".
you guys made stride towards balancing launchers vs gunnery, but lets finish the project, not just enough to appease most folks.
torps need rockets and hams, cruise need lights and heavies.
need to add 3 new skills and change the name of 3 old skills. rage rocket spec rage ham spec rage torpedo spec
precision rocket spec precision ham spec precision torpedo spec. |
Niena Nuamzzar
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
89
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Posted - 2013.11.24 13:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Posting in a scr3w Caldari even more thread... |
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
352
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 15:44:00 -
[3] - Quote
Have you tried training drones yet? Have you seen the mapping for those? Gunnery is fast and straightforward, it only takes longer if you want to train every gun type for every race to rank V specialisation. And don't forget, some gunnery skills are needed to fit missiles better, like advanced weapons upgrades. Boldly going forward, still can't find reverse - name that tune kids! |
Izzy Ankhavees
Ankhavees Data Mining AEB Industrial Assembly
1
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Posted - 2013.11.24 16:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
Now we have to have balance between different types of modules. I wonder where it may lead.
Balance among stuff that are meant to add up to each other only leads to one outcome: Nerf. "Perfect crimes do not exist, for to be a crime, it must be proven." "Make the body count unacceptable to ensure your own safety." "Basic rule of covert ops: let someone else do your dirty work." |
Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
408
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Posted - 2013.11.25 04:08:00 -
[5] - Quote
screw caldari? no where does it say screw caldari. one cannot imply that this post is anti-caldari and be accurate when other ships use missiles. my fav ship is a sac which uses missiles.
i do happen to know how to use drones a little. 10.5m sp on one toon, 10.4m sp on another. bomber 4 on my main. 3 toons with sentry 5, etc. etc.
this post isnt about bashing anyone. this post is about making the weapon systems the same training time to use.
in the navy right now, you learn basic gunnery, then move on to your weapon system. if i taught someone to use the 16" cannons on the old battleships, i wouldnt force them to learn 50 cal machine guns, then 5", then the 8' to get to 16'. i would teach them gunnery skills then how to use the gun i want them to use. but, i can understand how you want some training time on basics and working your way up (at least some).
missiles should follow the same path IMO. rockets, hams then torps or lights, heavies then cruise. then spec in one direction or another. we train light, med, large guns, then spec in close or long range.
you are firing different missiles from different launchers. each launcher has different requirements.
i saw we/you, but i use both. been using guns most of eve, but i have almost everything else maxed out. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
640
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 05:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
Just suck it up. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Gawain Edmond
Angry Mustellid
29
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Posted - 2013.11.25 05:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
no gunnery skills affect missile fittings if you check they're engineering skills.... ccp changed the group |
Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
408
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Posted - 2013.11.25 05:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
Gawain Edmond wrote:no gunnery skills affect missile fittings if you check they're engineering skills.... ccp changed the group i didnt notice this. good to know.
suck it up? no. just fix it.
i have both trained almost to max. i am merely pointing out discrepancies. whom ever designed this game favored missiles and minie ships. they received all kinds of bonuses. ccp is doing a good job of balancing them out. somethings they touched on and will have to be re-evaluated. i was merely pointing it out. |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
410
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Posted - 2013.11.25 05:26:00 -
[9] - Quote
Just to be fair, to finish balancing turrets vs missiles skills they need to split energy/hybrid/projectiles turret skills into their appropriate close and long range variants: Large Projectile Turret should be split into Large Autocannons and Large Artillery skills Large Hybrid Turret split into Large Blasters and Large Railguns. Large Energy Turret skill split into Large Pulse Lasers and Large beam Lasers skills. etc.
Specialization skills are already split so there is no need to change them. Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |
Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
408
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 05:34:00 -
[10] - Quote
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:Just to be fair, to finish balancing turrets vs missiles skills they need to split energy/hybrid/projectiles turret skills into their appropriate close and long range variants: Large Projectile Turret should be split into Large Autocannons and Large Artillery skills Large Hybrid Turret split into Large Blasters and Large Railguns. Large Energy Turret skill split into Large Pulse Lasers and Large beam Lasers skills. etc.
Specialization skills are already split so there is no need to change them. this is true. if short range and long range missiles are spit, then guns would have to be split too.
hmm.. lemme rethink. |
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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
1170
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Posted - 2013.11.25 05:59:00 -
[11] - Quote
After reading OP's post I am 100% convinced he does not use missiles. At all. Ever.
Furthermore I am convinced any attempts to say he does will be flat-out lies.
I'm not even convinced anymore that OP even uses weapons at all. OP is probably also an idiot.
OP: Let me break it down for you. I'll use caps so you can read it easily and also to express my scathing contempt at you trying to "rebalance" something that you clearly have less than no understanding of.
Frigate size: ROCKETS are SHORT RANGE. LIGHT MISSILES are LONG RANGE.
Cruiser size: HAMs are SHORT RANGE. HEAVY MISSILES are LONG RANGE. *RLMLs are Undersized Long Range, turret equivalents exist.
Battleship size: TORPEDOES are SHORT RANGE. CRUISES are LONG RANGE. *RHMLs are Undersized Long Range, turret equivalents exist.
Capital size: CITADEL TORPS are SHORT RANGE. CITADEL CRUISE are LONG RANGE.
That means Rockets, HAMs, Torps and Citadel Torps are the "Autocannons" of the missile world while Light Missiles, Heavy Missiles, Cruises and Citadel Cruises are the "Artillery" of the missile world.
That means short range missiles have two types of T2 ammunition just like autocannons do, while long range missiles have two types of T2 ammunition as well, just like artillery does.
Don't get hung up on "but the skill books!" because that's a stupid thing to get hung up on. Use your brain for once and try to do some logical processing. You just might see that what I've said is completely right and the structure of required skills, as usual, has absolutely nothing to do with the way actual gameplay is designed and balanced.
The weapon structure is fine. Stop trying to mess it up by making the rest of us train even more skills.
Now put on the dunce cap and go stand in the corner until the end of class. |
Korgreim
Shadows of the Day HeII Gate Alliance
3
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Posted - 2013.11.25 06:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
Mole Guy wrote: need to add 3 new skills and change the name of 3 old skills. rage rocket spec rage ham spec rage torpedo spec
precision rocket spec precision ham spec precision torpedo spec.
Ok, so continuing your proposal, we want also a bit another Gunnery skills: Small Quake spec Medium Quake spec Large Quake spec
Small Tremor spec Medium Tremor spec Large Tremor spec
Small Hail spec Medium Hail spec Large Hail spec
Small Barrage spec Medium Barrage spec Large Barrage spec
Ah, and dont forget to tripple it, cuz there are also lazorz and hybrids. Screw this, dude, Alvatore DiMarco said it right, you have no idea of what you are comparing. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
640
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 07:28:00 -
[13] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Now put on the dunce cap and go stand in the corner until the end of class. Haha. LMFAO. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Yummy Chocolate
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3140
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 07:51:00 -
[14] - Quote
Mole Guy wrote:torpedos are different from cruise, yet to get to torpedos, you need light missiles and heavy missiles.
since when?? Frostys Virpio > CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase Felicity Love >... was thinking "moar popcorn"... but now, seeing the truly awesome contribution this thread is going to make to the Greater Glory Of EVE.... imagonnamakkadapizza.... |
Iain Cariaba
Lycosa Syndicate Surely You're Joking
0
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Posted - 2013.11.25 11:09:00 -
[15] - Quote
Here's some hard numbers for you to ponder. These times are from my hauler alt who's weapons skills consist only of Small Hybrid Turret 3.
Minimum skills for all t2 weapons and capital weapons, no support skills beyond those required. Attributes optimized.
Missiles: 80d, 14h - 15 unique skills Hybrids: 59d, 9h - 13 unique skills (added 3h to compensate for known skills) Projectiles: 59d, 9h - 13 unique skills Lasers: 59d, 9h - 13 unique skills
Based on real data, your argument for nerfing missile training times or adding more skills is void as missiles are already nerfed in the training times. I will also note that capital cruise launchers and capital torpedo launchers require 2 different skills to use, whereas capital guns use one skill for both long range and short range.
If you're so insistent on balance, I will agree. Lower missile training times and combine the siege weapons into one skill. Either that or increase gun train times and split the siege guns into two categories.
Good day.
P.S. The results of this test on evemon was truly surprising. I honestly expected the missiles times to be shorter myself. |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
157
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 11:18:00 -
[16] - Quote
Because all missiles do shruuuuuuuuuuu...... BOOM. And all guns have different sounds. |
Eve Orwell
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 13:08:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mole Guy wrote:i was looking and the weapons them selves vs training in missiles. torpedos are different from cruise, yet to get to torpedos, you need light missiles and heavy missiles. thats like me training light auto cannons, heavy auto cannons and then loading tachyons in my training cue.
Actually, its more like training light auto cannons, medium auto cannons, then heavy artillery. Think of cruise/torps as artillery/autocannons, rails/blasters and beam/pulse.
Mole Guy wrote:to me, the missile line should require missile training, the torpedo line should require rockets and hams. we gunners have 6 lines to train. 2 specs in each projectiles, energy, and hybrids while missiles only have to train lights then heavies and can train what ever after that. guided and dumb fired are 2 different weapon systems and should be trained accordingly. light, heavies and cruise (and their specs) vs rockets, hams and torps (and their specs).
further more...once we train lazor rank 5, we have to choose to spec in close range or long range to use the t2 version. why do missiles NOT have to train both as well?
Same problem of looking at it wrong, don't think of precision/rage missiles for each missile system as the equivilent of long/short range weaponry, but long/short range ammo, similar to how pulse have scorch for long range and conflagration for short range.
Mole Guy wrote:the way it should be is one trains rockets to 5 then either rage spec OR javelin spec. one shouldnt be able to use either and gain damage bonuses when one isnt trained in the details of how to use "close in missiles" vs "long range missiles (or rockets)". they are different weapons (that share a launcher). one needs training in when to shoot for "best effect".
you guys made stride towards balancing launchers vs gunnery, but lets finish the project, not just enough to appease most folks.
Same as above
Mole Guy wrote:torps need rockets and hams, cruise need lights and heavies.
This is correct though, guided missiles should need the lower bracket guided missile as a pre-req, and unguided missiles the same.
Mole Guy wrote:need to add 3 new skills and change the name of 3 old skills. rage rocket spec rage ham spec rage torpedo spec
precision rocket spec precision ham spec precision torpedo spec.
As before, this would be like needing scorch spec and conflag spec, a more appropriate way to do it that would put it inline with the guns would be:
Light Missiles........ -> Heavy Missiles................ -> BS Missiles .............v ............................v.......................................v Rocket Spec.......... -> Heavy Assault Spec -> Torp Spec Light Missile Spec -> Heavy Missile Spec -> Cruise Spec |
Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
408
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 17:39:00 -
[18] - Quote
Yummy Chocolate wrote:Mole Guy wrote:torpedos are different from cruise, yet to get to torpedos, you need light missiles and heavy missiles. since when?? i dont know since when. i logged into the game last night and pulled up torpedos to check their requirements (because i know gunnery changed, and saw they needed light and heavy missiles. it didnt make sense to me.
and i do recall i posted this afterwards:
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote: Just to be fair, to finish balancing turrets vs missiles skills they need to split energy/hybrid/projectiles turret skills into their appropriate close and long range variants: Large Projectile Turret should be split into Large Autocannons and Large Artillery skills Large Hybrid Turret split into Large Blasters and Large Railguns. Large Energy Turret skill split into Large Pulse Lasers and Large beam Lasers skills. etc.
Specialization skills are already split so there is no need to change them.
then i replied:
this is true. if short range and long range missiles are spit, then guns would have to be split too.
hmm.. lemme rethink.
check the requirements in eve and get back with me. it doesnt seem right for me to have to train light missiles, then heavies to be able to launch torpedos. i can see for cruise, but not for torps. i was only trying to make things more linear and stream lined. |
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
114
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 19:55:00 -
[19] - Quote
Moonaura wrote:And don't forget, some gunnery skills are needed to fit missiles better, like advanced weapons upgrades.
It doesn't matter what you use, you'll have WU V and AWU V anyway. If you don't have them then I don't know what to say to you. |
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