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Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
224
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Posted - 2013.11.24 22:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
We need some type of standard for what draws aggro.
This would change the AI game completely.
DPS/EW/Logi all draw it but it's all rough theory. We really need some type of numbers to show it.
Even if it was just a simple ranking system of 1-5 for the non-dps mods as an expected aggro contribution. Could adjust based on skills just like other mods do with dps.
Could just be a aggro number for each ship based on fitted mods and it's max dps. To give a rough idea of what to expect.
Something/Anything. Make it as fancy or basic, just get us something please. |
Gigan Amilupar
No Code of Conduct Fluffeh Bunneh Murder Squad
56
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Posted - 2013.11.24 22:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
I kind of like it the way it is. I think the chaotic nature of aggro is befitting of new eden. Also, I don't really want to see it devolve into a system where we start seeing "tanks" for aggro management which is almost certainly what would happen if it was quantifiable. |
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
224
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 22:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
That's exactly what I want to see happen.
I believe missile ships are way over looked in this very role since you can't get the numbers on it.
It would really only change group PvE and that means incursions for the most part.
I'm sure it would change for some complex running in null as well but on a much smaller scale.
Could still keep a random number aspect to the entire mechanic just let it increase the odds based on the attribute. |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
635
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Posted - 2013.11.25 01:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
I'd like to see more chaos with NPC ships, actually. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
1168
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 01:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
If we're going to get "tanks", can we get "healers" and "melee DPS" too? |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
3661
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 01:14:00 -
[6] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:I'd like to see more chaos with NPC ships, actually. This.
My personal ideal is for NPCs to fit their ships exactly the way players would... fits would be pulled via player kills/deaths logged in the system. You would NEVER know if you are dealing with a competent NPC or not this way. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4347
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Posted - 2013.11.25 01:48:00 -
[7] - Quote
... you're saying that PvE in EVE is too hard?
Holeeee....
Anyway, if you want to figure out the inner workings of the NPC AI, do the same thing people did to figure out how tracking, missiles, and pretty much every other mechanic in the game works. Empirical testing. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
Endovior
Osmosis Inc Li3 Federation
95
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Posted - 2013.11.25 02:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
NPC AI should be developing towards being more complex and less predictable, rather than the reverse. It probably won't approach more than a crude simulation of intelligent behaviour, but it should at least be rather more clever than the simple weighted approach that OP wants to shackle it to. You don't, for instance, want an AI that shoots at logi because it's hardcoded to shoot logi first; you want an AI that shoots logi because it's having difficulty breaking the tank of whatever's pulling reps. Or, better yet, an AI that hits the logi with it's EWAR when that happens, while keeping its DPS on the primary target. |
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
224
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 04:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
My point is more that the mechanics already exist to have tanks.
The issue is the player base can't see it so those who fit as such and do a damn good job of it are not welcome into such things as incursion fleets.
This is why ships like RS and Navy Scorpion have been so under rated compared to other ships who's main function you can track such as DPS and Logi.
Tanks, DPS, Healers all exist right now. All I want is the attributes of the tanks to show so the factor is not completely excluded by the PvE player base due to lack of numbers being public.
Current tank talks:
You can hold great aggro with EW on a BS. Nos/ECM combo is brutal for holding aggro. But no numbers to show it. Then you get other questions like how is target painter aggro v.s. ECM. The answer is ECM is more. How do I know? Because I tested it. Then you get how much more? Is it really worth having a ship like this in fleet? Lots more and yes are the answers but the doubts will never go away.
Any crumb at all that would show publicly what these mods do aggro wise in PvE would be enough to help this issue. Educating people with personal experience and no math to back it us just sucks. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1596
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Posted - 2013.11.25 04:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:I'd like to see more chaos with NPC ships, actually.
+1
They're pretty predictable as is. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
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Gawain Edmond
Angry Mustellid
29
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Posted - 2013.11.25 04:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
wait so your argument is that it's good to have a ship that does very little or no dps as long as it pulls all the agro and keeps it. This mostly in a pve part of eve where the aim is to kill everything as fast as possible before other people can come in and kill more stuff than you so that they get paid and you don't.
i support this idea on behalf of all incursion runners who contest sites against you let your fleet have all the agro and have to deal with repping you while they get all the isk.
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Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
224
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Posted - 2013.11.25 04:42:00 -
[12] - Quote
Gawain Edmond wrote:wait so your argument is that it's good to have a ship that does very little or no dps as long as it pulls all the agro and keeps it. This mostly in a pve part of eve where the aim is to kill everything as fast as possible before other people can come in and kill more stuff than you so that they get paid and you don't.
i support this idea on behalf of all incursion runners who contest sites against you let your fleet have all the agro and have to deal with repping you while they get all the isk.
You seem to be stuck in VG mode.
They are not the only incursions in town.
Also it's nice on the logi to have a serious tank hold down the bulk of the aggro in a HQ. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
3667
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 04:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
Basically you're asking for things to be predictable OP. The changes made to NPCs was done so that they are less predictable on purpose.
There is a strong sentiment among players and developers that the PvE in EVE should be made more similar to PvP... where damage types encountered and primary targets are more randomized.
The current NPC aggro mechanics somewhat mimic this... but are still predictable in a number of ways.
As for the Raven and Scorpian Navy Issues... they are considered "sub-par" for incursions due to the way the missiles mechanics work (see: delayed damage and limited damage application to different sized targets). Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
224
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 04:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
I don't want any type of AI change.
I only what what is going on to be able to be shown in some fashion.
It could be more chaotic too. Just let us have the numbers. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
3667
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 04:49:00 -
[15] - Quote
Showing numbers would make things predictable. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
224
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 04:54:00 -
[16] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Showing numbers would make things predictable.
Adding a sentence in the description for the EW mods that says "High Aggro Warning" would be something and the mystery of the exacts could still exist. It would still be shy of what I'm after but a lot better than no one knowing about it or having people in multiple treads argue that it's just "broken theory" with no way to prove and peoples accounts differing so much. |
Gawain Edmond
Angry Mustellid
29
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 04:57:00 -
[17] - Quote
because no one ever contests anything other than a vanguard...
being logi in an incurion isn't hard and it even gets easier in an HQ it's always the same 3/4 ships that pull most of the agro then another half dozen will sometimes pull agro but far less than the 3/4 who pull the most agro and then a few more who'll maybe pull it once and then be ignored if you're logi can't cope with that then you have the wrong logi pilots
least that's how it was last time i ran one and they aint mentioned any change in the ai since then. Eve isn't ment to be easy all your change would do is make it so an alt would warp in get locked by all the logi activate all the things and pull the agro for a room this is not fun for the logi (yes people like flying logi and they like to do stuff that isn't go afk) |
Izzy Ankhavees
Ankhavees Data Mining AEB Industrial Assembly
4
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Posted - 2013.11.25 05:00:00 -
[18] - Quote
This is another kind of game. This is not wow.
Aggro as it works on wow is a bad mechanic that wrecks all enjoyment on a operation.
If you have aggro only base acts you will have predictable mechanic action. The npc is right in switching targets for a number of reasons not only because "the rule says you should focus on X or Y".
All ships on eve are capable of having a measure of restoring, mitigating, dealing and avoiding damage, and that is what makes it a little more interesting to play.
I played wow and there were the disturbing way to play that I want never to see in eve:
- Tank spam taunts so the enemies NEVER attack the DPS or the healer. - DPS has a lot of "faint" skills to lessen the aggro. - Healers get unreasonable power that can fill their health almost in one click.
That is what aggro driven pve does, makes people comfortable. You fit a DPS and then you go there and spam guns with no fear, because the tank is taking all the heat. You endup with WoW scenario where you can do an instance watching TV and eating lunch even sometimes playing with your thumbs in the rare occasions where you need to press ONE button.
EVE combat is already not as demanding as it should, immagine if you have laws of aggro. Kiss PVE good bye.
On a side note: That is why you have so many people that dont know PVP focusing on PVE. AI should mimik pvp and make the npcs smarter to prime targets as we do, or flee and tackle back, fake moves and so on. If it was that way, you wouldnt have so many PVE folks complaining PVP is unfair. They would have use for PVE knowledge in PVP. "Perfect crimes do not exist, for to be a crime, it must be proven." "Make the body count unacceptable to ensure your own safety." "Basic rule of covert ops: let someone else do your dirty work." |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
410
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 05:02:00 -
[19] - Quote
Afaik current aggro mechanic depends on (chanced)flags and not some arbitrary aggro gauge numbers or something. Some rats will go for small drones, some for large ones, some will prioritize ewar/logi ships and change targets accordingly but there is also chance that they will not change targets, etc. For example: 10/10 Overseer (angel one at least) changes his target every time he attacks with 100% chance. Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4355
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 05:11:00 -
[20] - Quote
Ireland VonVicious wrote:All I want is the attributes of the tanks to show so the factor is not completely excluded by the PvE player base due to lack of numbers being public.
The numbers are exactly as public as most other mechanics we have numbers for.
If you want the numbers in an easy to read form, grab some friends, hop onto SISI for a couple weeks, and determine the AI's priority algorithm. Then publish it.
Stop asking CCP for handouts. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
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Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
224
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 02:45:00 -
[21] - Quote
It seems the thread has pretty much derailed.
I don't want aggro changes.
I like the way the AI works currently.
I've tested and seen how well "tanking" can currently work in Eve and I like it.
The problem I have is how the player base is pushed to respond to it as you can see by this thread.
Let me give an example of the problem I run into:
I have a Max trained RS and I mean maxed.
Push 1200 plus dps with small sig on the missiles and great tracking on the drones.
I run with NOS/ECM in incursions when ever possible. Sadly most of the time the FC demands a TP instead of the ECM. (( Draws way less aggro / Gimps the tanking )) Mainly due to the very issue I'm trying to address in this thread.
Ship has huge health and resist. Great for using as anchor and can keep holding a majority of aggro most of the time. It makes logi's life go into super easy mode and reduces ship losses even when the Logi DC's happen.
With all that going on it's hard to get a fleet. I know the missile/drone aspect is a huge part of that but I actually land a huge % of max damage. The real issue is it's a ship made to tank and it's a completely obscure concept in Eve. Due to the lack of information and experience in such a ship as you won't see good results until way after 50 mil SP people grab a new player in another faction BS that won't do half for the fleet of what a RS will.
No matter how much knowledge you achieve on the subject without something to back up that the mechanics actually exist from CCP the player base will continue to over look / exclude an entire group of ships / pilots for no good reason.
I personally no longer have this issue often as being past the 100 mil sp mark with max skills and implants is enough of a selling point for any fleet to pick you up even in a RS. I just know how rough it is on the newer pilots and I've seen this issue pop up over and over again with missile pilot after missile pilot.
Even if it just showed % chance of aggro based on everything being on, for every ship in fleet, in a little menu it would do the trick. Having one main anchor/tank that shows even a 10% extra chance of extra aggro over any other ship in fleet would fix the shut out of the missile boats. Problem is it has to be shown or else people just ignore how it works completely as we currently do. |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
413
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 03:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
Ireland VonVicious wrote:...ship made to tank and it's a completely obscure concept in Eve. ... and that is good. I never understood why in other MMOs NPCs should prioritize some fat/resistant low dps piece of meat/metal over real threat or enemy support.
It was already suggested: go to SiSi, crunch some numbers, plot some fancy graphs, put all that info together in a nice spreadshit and publish it. If your data is of any value - it'll be used (i doubt it, but you can try). Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
3680
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 03:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ireland VonVicious wrote:Mainly due to the very issue I'm trying to address in this thread.
Ship has huge health and resist. Great for using as anchor and can keep holding a majority of aggro most of the time. It makes logi's life go into super easy mode and reduces ship losses even when the Logi DC's happen. And this is precisely the reason I am against whatever it is you are proposing.
NPCs should not be predictable. Instead, prepare your tank-logi setup the way you would prepare for PvP and act accordingly.
And yes... PvP setups CAN perform PvE very well (especially with logistics). Incursion fleets are about a half step away from being actual PvP fleets themselves. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4357
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 04:59:00 -
[24] - Quote
Ireland VonVicious wrote:I like the way the AI works currently.
I've tested and seen how well "tanking" can currently work in Eve and I like it.
The problem I have is how the player base is pushed to respond to it as you can see by this thread.
So Push Back. Write up a detailed explanation of how it works, and then show the people you fly with how it works, and then as they start making more money using your techniques, the knowledge will spread (or not, since who tries to spread knowledge that's giving themselves an advantage).
EVE is the DIY MMO. The Devs do not generally publish mechanics; the players figure them out and share (or don't share) their knowledge. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
556
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Posted - 2013.11.26 05:13:00 -
[25] - Quote
You seem to imply that there is an issue currently with the fleets ability to take the DPS without a dedicated tank... There is your flaw in the argument. There is no issue. Incursion fleets fit so that every ship can survive taking DPS. This means when the agro goes wild, no-one is at risk (providing they are awake). Your method simply lowers the fleets overall DPS thus lowering payouts and meaning in contest situations your fleet gets nothing. |
Cardano Firesnake
Les chevaliers de l'ordre Goonswarm Federation
89
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 09:55:00 -
[26] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:If we're going to get "tanks", can we get "healers" and "melee DPS" too?
WOW! Stop that now!
Did I say WOW?
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Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
623
|
Posted - 2013.11.26 11:21:00 -
[27] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:If we're going to get "tanks", can we get "healers" and "melee DPS" too?
Are we talking about Marauders, Logistics and Vindicators? Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
224
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 04:14:00 -
[28] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:You seem to imply that there is an issue currently with the fleets ability to take the DPS without a dedicated tank... There is your flaw in the argument. There is no issue. Incursion fleets fit so that every ship can survive taking DPS. This means when the agro goes wild, no-one is at risk (providing they are awake). Your method simply lowers the fleets overall DPS thus lowering payouts and meaning in contest situations your fleet gets nothing.
Not exactly.
I find that with the RS pulling anchor duty on a VG and using the EW with high dps for a RS it tanks well enough to drop the 3rd logi that most fleets like to run even if only for the dreaded D/C risk.
RS can hang with only one logi during a D/C rather well if it's a scimitar.
You also still get the the bit of extra drone room for mining drones when running MC's and some medium armor repair bots to fix any leakage in the fleet or to fix others drones when taking the short bathroom breaks. (( Helps reduce factors that slow down fleets ))
You can often see more isk per hour. Having more than one RS in a VG is a complete waste.
Even if you do run with the 3 logi setup it will help reduce over all ship losses for the fleet that more than make up for it's slight lack of dps. Average isk per hour for fleets will improve once you factor in losses even if they are very rare without the RS.
Plus making logi's life easier is always nice for fleet sanity and stops the in fighting.
To address other comments: I will be working further into crunching numbers on this aspect of Eve. |
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