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ridley gatarue
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2013.11.25 01:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, dust mercs can buy bpo's but unlike eve there is no manufacturing involved. they are just an infinite use item, sorta like our rookie ships. to get these bpo's you have to pay real cash (p2w style) from the PSN or buy (with cash) Aurum to get them on the Dust market in game
recently, due to changes being made in how dust works, concerns were raised that CCP would be removing those bpo's from player inventories.
These mercs were assured that they would keep them, linked here:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=116404&find=unread
A few weeks later, Dust players got on the forums to find this dev post:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=122274&find=unread
if you will notice there are a few blueprints being removed...
why the 180 CCP?
I find it disconcerting that CCP's only compensation is 4800 Aur for all effected.
some only paid 30 aur and are making a huge profit, while others are getting only what they paid.
furthermore it seems disingenuous to pay people in a currency that doesn't offer any items of the same caliber any longer. seems like a bait and switch to me....
the aur just isn't worth what it used to be.
The hardest part of this for me to swallow is there has been no word from the devs even though many posts have been made on the issue:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=122413&find=unread
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=122443&find=unread
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=123090&find=unread
even members of their CPM are being dismissive:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=123179&find=unread
So what's going on over there?
any thoughts?
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Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
54
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Posted - 2013.11.25 11:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
There are a couple of discrepancies with your OP but otherwise I agree with your sentiments that CCP has handled this situation badly both currently and from the initial development stages of making DUST 514.
Firstly the infinite use BPO's for dropsuits, vehicles, modules etc were never 'play to win' as they did not have much greater stats than the versions available to buy with in-game ISK. It was just a way to make it easier for people to play the game with less worries about running out of equipment.
Secondly the infinite use BPO's bought with Aurum were never priced at 30 Aurum but at a price range of approx. 20, 30, or 40 THOUSAND Aurum. 40 Thousand Aurum would have been bought at the time at a price of -ú15 real life cash. Some BPO's have been bought with real life cash mixed in with packs of SP boosters and amounts of other items that could be bought in-game with ISK. These packs were priced at various prices such as the starter pack for -ú8 (Assault Rifle BPO) and the original Merc packs for -ú15 to -ú17 (Dragonfly dropsuit BPO + machine gun BPO etc).
The opinions stated by the CPM guy you linked are both correct and incorrect. You obviously cannot be refunded for boosters that came within packs that you have used and gained the SP from unless you also are willing to return that SP you gained. On the other hand if dropsuit/weapon/module BPO's bought within packs or via thousands of Aurum bought with RL cash are to be withdrawn then a RL money value has to be determined and refunded to the consumer.
The range of items available within the in-game marketplace and on the PSN store atm are either not worth buying eg single use items with lower/no skill reqs and some of the boosters are either not worth buying for regular players of DUST 514 or are vastly overpriced. Essentially Aurum has become as useless within DUST 514 as it has been and largely continues to be within EVE Online.
Therefore to replace a game purchased item bought with RL cash money with possibly a lesser equivalent value of Aurum is morally wrong and as I have stated elsewhere probably a trading standards issue and a legal minefield. So dependant on how each player acquired any DUST 514 BPO's they have to be refunded in a determined value of RL Cash appropriate to the amount of Aurum and its value at the time.
I am probably speaking here more in terms of non-vehicle related infinite use DUST 514 BPO's than the current swathe of BPO being eliminated from use. But it is probably inevitable that all other non-vehicle related DUST 514 BPO's will be eliminated from use in DUST 514 at some point. Essentially it appears that CCP does not like the fact that the DUST 514 BPO's do not use materials like the BPO's in EVE Online. A better way to settle this issue would be to leave all the DUST 514 BPO's 'in play' until a full industrial system with BPO's like the ones in EVE Online being developed. THEN change the infinite use BPO's so they do consume materials like the ones in EVE Online.
CCP really should have put more thought into the development of DUST 514 and how equipment would be provided for the DUST mercenaries before they even opened the beta. I think they were probably too concerned with the business model and how the game was going to be funded and paid for. As a result we are at this point with a lot of rightly upset consumers/players.
CCP really should have set up an industrial system from the beginning of development of DUST 514. Then the game would have both been truly revolutionary compared to other FPS and would be much fully intertwined with the mechanics of EVE Online. All we can hope is that CCP construct an industrial system soon that is as good as it could have been initially. |
Cross C Ragweed
Turalyon Plus Turalyon Alliance
4
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Posted - 2013.11.25 18:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:Essentially it appears that CCP does not like the fact that the DUST 514 BPO's do not use materials like the BPO's in EVE Online.
I never spec'ed in vehicles so can not say about these, but there are many other BPO's which I believe ccp wants to remove because it turns out that once you have skilled up to 5 on various things, the supposed militia level BPO's are just about as deadly as fairly spendy ISK items, and so even experienced players run the BPO's all the time, instead of buying the ISK models.
For example, I LOVE my Dren Assault Rifle (bpo that came with the $100 Elite Pack). There is really no reason for me to pay up to 18k for various ISK models, when with my skill set this gun hits just about as hard and accurate.
CCP representatives have noted that the BPO's are "bad for the economy" and I believe it partly for the reason/example I've given here.
It's gonna suck losing my Dren AR - same is true for many other BPO modules I use all the time and paid cash for in the various Elite and Merc packs.
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Gerald Sphinx
The Scope Gallente Federation
14
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Posted - 2013.11.25 18:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:Secondly the infinite use BPO's bought with Aurum were never priced at 30 Aurum but at a price range of approx. 20, 30, or 40 THOUSAND Aurum. 40 Thousand Aurum would have been bought at the time at a price of -ú15 real life cash. Some BPO's have been bought with real life cash mixed in with packs of SP boosters and amounts of other items that could be bought in-game with ISK. These packs were priced at various prices such as the starter pack for -ú8 (Assault Rifle BPO) and the original Merc packs for -ú15 to -ú17 (Dragonfly dropsuit BPO + machine gun BPO etc).
On the contrary, the BPOs prices back in closed beta were between 30 to 100 AURUM. Not in the thousands but in the tens and hundreds, merely. I was there. As a closed-beta vet in Dust, I currently own every infantry BPO after just spending a mere $20 total to get them all. Then, as Dust was switching over to Open Beta, the prices went up to the thousands per unit. |
Gerald Sphinx
The Scope Gallente Federation
14
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Posted - 2013.11.25 18:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cross C Ragweed wrote:Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:Essentially it appears that CCP does not like the fact that the DUST 514 BPO's do not use materials like the BPO's in EVE Online. I never spec'ed in vehicles so can not say about these, but there are many other BPO's which I believe ccp wants to remove because it turns out that once you have skilled up to 5 on various things, the supposed militia level BPO's are just about as deadly as fairly spendy ISK items, and so even experienced players run the BPO's all the time, instead of buying the ISK models. For example, I LOVE my Dren Assault Rifle (bpo that came with the $100 Elite Pack). There is really no reason for me to pay up to 18k for various ISK models, when with my skill set this gun hits just about as hard and accurate. CCP representatives have noted that the BPO's are "bad for the economy" and I believe it partly for the reason/example I've given here. It's gonna suck losing my Dren AR - same is true for many other BPO modules I use all the time and paid cash for in the various Elite and Merc packs.
Overall, I don't see any problem with current players keeping the rest of the BPOs in their inventory since there are no more entering circulation and the player base is currently small. Once the player base increases, the percentage of BPOs in circulation will become much smaller in relation to the overall population of the players themselves. T2 BPOs come to mind as a perfect example. |
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
54
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Posted - 2013.11.26 11:32:00 -
[6] - Quote
Gerald Sphinx wrote:Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:Secondly the infinite use BPO's bought with Aurum were never priced at 30 Aurum but at a price range of approx. 20, 30, or 40 THOUSAND Aurum. 40 Thousand Aurum would have been bought at the time at a price of -ú15 real life cash. Some BPO's have been bought with real life cash mixed in with packs of SP boosters and amounts of other items that could be bought in-game with ISK. These packs were priced at various prices such as the starter pack for -ú8 (Assault Rifle BPO) and the original Merc packs for -ú15 to -ú17 (Dragonfly dropsuit BPO + machine gun BPO etc). On the contrary, the BPOs prices back in closed beta were between 30 to 100 AURUM. Not in the thousands but in the tens and hundreds, merely. I was there. As a closed-beta vet in Dust, I currently own every infantry BPO after just spending a mere $20 total to get them all. Then, as Dust was switching over to Open Beta, the prices went up to the thousands per unit.
I was in the closed beta as well although admittedly I didn't play much at all. I still haven't got into it properly mainly due to time constraints and last time I looked I have over seven million unspent SP !!
Regarding your comment about BPO's being priced at 30 to 100 Aurum at some point during the closed beta I can't clearly recall whether that was the case or not. I know at some point they moved the decimal point so merc packs came with 40,000 Aurum instead of 4000 Aurum but the price for the merc pack stayed at the same price of -ú15 to -ú17. The majority of that -ú15 to -ú17 could be attributed to purchasing the Dragonfly dropsuit and machine gun BPO's within the pack. I THINK there was a passive skill point booster included as well though so some of the cash would have to be deducted in the case of a cash refund.
What you say still doesn't negate the fact that some people will have bought XX amount of thousands of Aurum with real life cash to buy various BPO's. So in the event of the remaining BPO's being eliminated there should at least be an option to receive the money back instead of Aurum for which there is currently little worth buying.
On balance I feel the BPO's should be left in play but probably not be allowed to be traded to other accounts/people.
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Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
54
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Posted - 2013.11.26 11:36:00 -
[7] - Quote
Gerald Sphinx wrote:Cross C Ragweed wrote:Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:Essentially it appears that CCP does not like the fact that the DUST 514 BPO's do not use materials like the BPO's in EVE Online. I never spec'ed in vehicles so can not say about these, but there are many other BPO's which I believe ccp wants to remove because it turns out that once you have skilled up to 5 on various things, the supposed militia level BPO's are just about as deadly as fairly spendy ISK items, and so even experienced players run the BPO's all the time, instead of buying the ISK models. For example, I LOVE my Dren Assault Rifle (bpo that came with the $100 Elite Pack). There is really no reason for me to pay up to 18k for various ISK models, when with my skill set this gun hits just about as hard and accurate. CCP representatives have noted that the BPO's are "bad for the economy" and I believe it partly for the reason/example I've given here. It's gonna suck losing my Dren AR - same is true for many other BPO modules I use all the time and paid cash for in the various Elite and Merc packs. Overall, I don't see any problem with current players keeping the rest of the BPOs in their inventory since there are no more entering circulation and the player base is currently small. Once the player base increases, the percentage of BPOs in circulation will become much smaller in relation to the overall population of the players themselves. T2 BPOs come to mind as a perfect example.
T2 BPO's are somewhat different in that they still require materials to be acquired in-game for the item to be produced. But I sort of see where you are coming from. |
Gerald Sphinx
The Scope Gallente Federation
20
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Posted - 2013.11.29 23:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:What you say still doesn't negate the fact that some people will have bought XX amount of thousands of Aurum with real life cash to buy various BPO's. So in the event of the remaining BPO's being eliminated there should at least be an option to receive the money back instead of Aurum for which there is currently little worth buying.
That's up to Sony to decide. According to SOE EULA/ToS, no cash refunds are given to PSN Account holders. Only store Credit.
Here is a link to better explain it.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1533541#post1533541
Quote: The BPOs that are currently being removed are militia-level vehicle modules that were only available from the in-game market which meant that you had to purchase AUR from Sony (not CCP) first.
The problem with the assumption that these buyers are entitled to a direct cash refund or at least a PSN Store Credit is divided into two parts.
1. Sony doesn't give cash refund according to their own EULA/ToS regarding PSN account holders. Therefore PSN Store Credit is the only available option.
2. As far as Sony is concerned, you only paid money for the AUR, not for the BPOs. Sony doesn't care what you intend to do with the AUR once you bought it. If CCP refunds you all of the AUR, then as far as Sony is concerned you lost no AUR in the process and therefore Sony will not give you any PSN Store Credit. This is because according to their transaction records you paid money for the AUR directly, not the BPOs.
Of course if the BPOs were part of the merc packs that Sony was selling directly and those BPOs got removed by CCP, then Sony would give you store credit equal to the estimated value of the BPO removed such as the 'Templar' Dropsuits, 'Toxin' SMGs, and other such items that the merc packs came with. Given the complicated nature of this type of refund, CCP will be limited to removing ONLY bpo's that were never sold together with any bundle in either the PSN Store or in the Eve Second Decade Collector's Edition. Beyond that, they risk putting themselves in some serious legal bird poop.
Another reason why NOT ALL BPOs can be removed is that there are some BPOs that you don't pay for but your placed a lot of effort into earning them. 'Skinweave' dropsuit and 'Exile' Assault Rifle BPOs come to mind. There are also the recruiter rewards that feature BPOs of their own respective tier. These have no AUR value but do require immense effort to acquire. If these get removed, what possible compensation can there be for their removal? You can't calculate the AUR value because they have none and you can't measure effort on a monetary scale.
Hope that clears it up for you. |
Black Panpher
Ganja Inc
485
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Posted - 2013.11.30 23:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
Dust screwed me over in the first month of Beta, I now have zero expectation for everything they do in the game to avoid any further disappointment. |
Vincenzo Arbosa
Locust Assets
41
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Posted - 2013.12.02 18:44:00 -
[10] - Quote
I agree with the general sentiment that Aurum isn't worth having if BPOs aren't for sale.. the only reason I bought the Merc Pack and other Aurum in the past was for BPO purchases. I don't want to buy one-time use modules and weapons for RL cash, that just seems stupid.
Please allow me to use Aurum to buy Playstation dollars or something, so I can at least get some use out of it. "Leave the gun. Take the cannoli."-á |
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ridley gatarue
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2013.12.02 19:21:00 -
[11] - Quote
Vincenzo Arbosa wrote:I agree with the general sentiment that Aurum isn't worth having if BPOs aren't for sale.. the only reason I bought the Merc Pack and other Aurum in the past was for BPO purchases. I don't want to buy one-time use modules and weapons for RL cash, that just seems stupid.
Please allow me to use Aurum to buy Playstation dollars or something, so I can at least get some use out of it.
This is the general position of most of the , how shall we say, "smarter" Dust players. However, CCP still remains silent, continuing to hide behind a group of Dust players who will defend CCP regardless of the issue to the death... it's remarkable how vigilant some are in defending a company over their own investment, but then again, a lot of these defenders also don't have the BPO's.
I have also heard that some dust bunnies have been forum banned for posting how angry they are about this. granted some of those banned may have been to aggressive, but others I have heard remained civil yet were still banned.
I am left feeling insecure about making any purchases from CCP since they don't seem to treat their customers fairly, at least dust side.
I wonder if this is a sign of things to come; will CCP try to pull this kind of stuff on EVE players in the future?
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Vincenzo Arbosa
Locust Assets
42
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Posted - 2013.12.02 21:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
How well do you think it would go over if Aurum could be used in Eve to fly Covert Ops without the requisite skills, or T2 guns even? That is basically the gist of Aurum in Dust right now. It is a completely different mindset than what has always been in Eve as I understand it. "Leave the gun. Take the cannoli."-á |
osgi
Uinta Logistics
0
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Posted - 2013.12.02 22:01:00 -
[13] - Quote
Vincenzo Arbosa wrote:How well do you think it would go over if Aurum could be used in Eve to fly Covert Ops without the requisite skills, or T2 guns even? That is basically the gist of Aurum in Dust right now. It is a completely different mindset than what has always been in Eve as I understand it.
Yes, and this also follows the difference that Eve is subscription based, and Dust is micro-transaction based. I'm speculating that micro-transaction based has the potential or more income than subscription based.
Lots of people are paying to flay that "Covert Ops" as it were |
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
60
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Posted - 2013.12.03 15:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
osgi wrote:Vincenzo Arbosa wrote:How well do you think it would go over if Aurum could be used in Eve to fly Covert Ops without the requisite skills, or T2 guns even? That is basically the gist of Aurum in Dust right now. It is a completely different mindset than what has always been in Eve as I understand it. Yes, and this also follows the difference that Eve is subscription based, and Dust is micro-transaction based. I'm speculating that micro-transaction based has the potential of more income than subscription based. Lots of people are paying to fly that "Covert Ops" as it were With the past sells of all the elite/merc packs, as well as ongoing sells for active/passive boosters, considered along with all the tells of muti-billionare eve players (i.e. playing on plex) would it scare you if Dust was actually making similar (or more) money as eve?
I was at the talk with the economists from both DUST 514 & EVE Online (Dr Eyjo) earlier this year at Fanfest. I think the DUST 514 economist said there was far more ISK being circulated/generated within DUST than in EVE. I can't remember the figure but it was a large one. I guess it is because DUST mercs are continually fighting whereas capsuleers in EVE would not be and may be involved in other activities than out & out combat. |
ridley gatarue
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2013.12.03 23:36:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:osgi wrote:Vincenzo Arbosa wrote:How well do you think it would go over if Aurum could be used in Eve to fly Covert Ops without the requisite skills, or T2 guns even? That is basically the gist of Aurum in Dust right now. It is a completely different mindset than what has always been in Eve as I understand it. Yes, and this also follows the difference that Eve is subscription based, and Dust is micro-transaction based. I'm speculating that micro-transaction based has the potential of more income than subscription based. Lots of people are paying to fly that "Covert Ops" as it were With the past sells of all the elite/merc packs, as well as ongoing sells for active/passive boosters, considered along with all the tells of muti-billionare eve players (i.e. playing on plex) would it scare you if Dust was actually making similar (or more) money as eve? I was at the talk with the economists from both DUST 514 & EVE Online (Dr Eyjo) earlier this year at Fanfest. I think the DUST 514 economist said there was far more ISK being circulated/generated within DUST than in EVE. I can't remember the figure but it was a large one. I guess it is because DUST mercs are continually fighting whereas capsuleers in EVE would not be and may be involved in other activities than out & out combat.
I cant believe that's true, but if it is I would attribute it to planetary conquest (PC). the mechanics in PC are so broken you can make literally trillions of isk and never have a real fight or risk anything.
as far as the mercs always fighting, yes this is true but the average dust player makes around 200- 300k isk a match which takes an average of 10 minutes and you can burn that up on one to two proto fits.
trust me when I say that the worst eve player can make more isk in an hour than an average dust merc can in a day, unless they are involved in PC. |
Gerald Sphinx
The Scope Gallente Federation
24
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Posted - 2013.12.04 05:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
ridley gatarue wrote:Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:osgi wrote:Vincenzo Arbosa wrote:How well do you think it would go over if Aurum could be used in Eve to fly Covert Ops without the requisite skills, or T2 guns even? That is basically the gist of Aurum in Dust right now. It is a completely different mindset than what has always been in Eve as I understand it. Yes, and this also follows the difference that Eve is subscription based, and Dust is micro-transaction based. I'm speculating that micro-transaction based has the potential of more income than subscription based. Lots of people are paying to fly that "Covert Ops" as it were With the past sells of all the elite/merc packs, as well as ongoing sells for active/passive boosters, considered along with all the tells of muti-billionare eve players (i.e. playing on plex) would it scare you if Dust was actually making similar (or more) money as eve? I was at the talk with the economists from both DUST 514 & EVE Online (Dr Eyjo) earlier this year at Fanfest. I think the DUST 514 economist said there was far more ISK being circulated/generated within DUST than in EVE. I can't remember the figure but it was a large one. I guess it is because DUST mercs are continually fighting whereas capsuleers in EVE would not be and may be involved in other activities than out & out combat. I cant believe that's true, but if it is I would attribute it to planetary conquest (PC). the mechanics in PC are so broken you can make literally trillions of isk and never have a real fight or risk anything. as far as the mercs always fighting, yes this is true but the average dust player makes around 200- 300k isk a match which takes an average of 10 minutes and you can burn that up on one to two proto fits. trust me when I say that the worst eve player can make more isk in an hour than an average dust merc can in a day, unless they are involved in PC.
Pretty much.
With the new faction warfare changes coming in 1.7 for Dust where ISK is no longer paid out to FW participants, we can expect much of that ISK going down the drain pretty soon. |
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