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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Tawa Suyo
TURN LEFT
74
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 16:21:00 -
[601] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:1. You clealy aren't playing EVE if you actually believes that the Daredevil is powerfull just because of the web. Infact, it's not really that good against any frigs if it's good frig pilots who are flying those ships against a Daredevil.
Yeh, I wouldn't really know anything about good frig piloting... o\
And do you still not understand how stacking penalties work? |
Morwennon
Aliastra Gallente Federation
51
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 16:31:00 -
[602] - Quote
Gorski Car wrote:Tell me how do you benefit the earth? Ever make a careless mistake IRL and think "man that was dumb" and feel bad about yourself? Just read *one* NightmareX post and experience transcendental relief from the certain knowledge that even in your worst moments you will never plumb the depths that he lives on a daily basis. It is a great burden he bears, acting as the benchmark for human stupidity, and I for one think he does it with considerable grace. Ceterum censeo, the RLML and HML nerfs must be undone. |
NightmareX
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
411
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 16:37:00 -
[603] - Quote
dexter xio wrote:NightmareX plstop)) Why?
Tawa Suyo wrote:NightmareX wrote:1. You clealy aren't playing EVE if you actually believes that the Daredevil is powerfull just because of the web. Infact, it's not really that good against any frigs if it's good frig pilots who are flying those ships against a Daredevil. Yeh, I wouldn't really know anything about good frig piloting... o\ And do you still not understand how stacking penalties work? If you can answer me if you know how to use the Vindicator 100% in and out, then sure, i will answer your question.
Oh also, if you actually bothers to look up on killboards, you will find out pretty fast that Daredevils dies like flies to other frigs. Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos.
Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama (31.10.2013): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=291945 Rebirth 4: http://tinyurl.com/ktfyalo |
Nag'o
Cuisinart Inc. Insidious Empire
35
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Posted - 2013.12.06 16:58:00 -
[604] - Quote
Sparkus Volundar wrote:Nag'o wrote:Sparkus Volundar wrote:It also boils down to whether or not a single bonus should lead to the following:
1x90% web: 4-times better than 1x60% (and basically the limit in effect that many stacked 60% webs reach). 2x90% web: 9-times better than 2x60%. 3x90% web: 12-times better than 3x60%. 4x90% web: 13-times better than 4x60%.
That doesn't look very Eve-like. 3+ webs on a single target is not very Eve-like. Alas, 1m/s is 13-times better than 13m/s at 0km distance only. If you want a real effect difference calculation put this on the turret tracking formula (missile speed effect is capped). Setting aside the question of whether you're correct about "3+" webs or not, hopefully itGÇÖs clear to you that with 2 webs, the difference is unusually high. If youGÇÖre unable to conceptualise how these speed differences affect things across a range of hulls, turrets and engagement scenarios, the tracking formula will indeed be able to help. The difference must be high because it's a speciallized ship. If there was little or no difference then there would be no point in flying the pirate faction. Without a distinctive bonus the Vindicator becomes just a black Navy Megathron.
The reason to apply the turret tracking formula is showing that your "n-times better" comparison is pointless in most of the cases and when it's not, the difference is justifiable by the ship role. Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality. |
NightmareX
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
411
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 17:09:00 -
[605] - Quote
Also, i'm really wondering about what makes the Vindicator more powerfull / special than a Curse, Rapier, web Loki (yes i own one my self), Falcon and even the Marauders just to name a few?
The Vindicator is as much specialized in webbing as much as other ships are specialized in their things. Not to mention that ECM'ing is way more powerfull than 90% webs. It's even more powerfull than 3x 90% webs to. Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos.
Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama (31.10.2013): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=291945 Rebirth 4: http://tinyurl.com/ktfyalo |
Nag'o
Cuisinart Inc. Insidious Empire
36
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 17:19:00 -
[606] - Quote
The Vindicator is a black hole. It does nothing to a ship at long range, but crushes whatever comes near it. That's the reason for webs and that's the reason for it's ridiculous targeting range. Now ppl are saying the web bonus is OP. I have never heard anyone saying the Vindicator was OP before this dev comment. I can bet a dollar for everyone saying this that they have at least one shameful death to a Vindi on their main's kb. Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1017
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 17:24:00 -
[607] - Quote
Buhhdust Princess wrote: if this gets nerfed, will just use rapiers/lokis in the future and take more of them.
100 rapiers and 100 lokis cannot web a ship as strongly as 1 vindicator |
NightmareX
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
411
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 17:28:00 -
[608] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Buhhdust Princess wrote: if this gets nerfed, will just use rapiers/lokis in the future and take more of them.
100 rapiers and 100 lokis cannot web a ship as strongly as 1 vindicator That's not the point. The point is that 8x Rapiers or 8x dual web Lokis will make any ships go so slow that any blap dreads can hit any ships anyways.
And it's also a point that when enough 60% webs are applied, it doesn't matter anylonger even if your speed still aren't as low as the Vindicator can web someone down to because when the speed comes under a specific point, it doesn't matter anylonger that the Vindicator can web you better. Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos.
Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama (31.10.2013): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=291945 Rebirth 4: http://tinyurl.com/ktfyalo |
Nag'o
Cuisinart Inc. Insidious Empire
36
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 17:46:00 -
[609] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Buhhdust Princess wrote: if this gets nerfed, will just use rapiers/lokis in the future and take more of them.
100 rapiers and 100 lokis cannot web a ship as strongly as 1 vindicator That's true, but a single Rapier with 3 webs can slow down a ship to a effectively similar speed the Vindicator can, from 4 times the distance. If the Vindicator had that bonus you could say it's OP. I'm out of here.
Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1710
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 18:18:00 -
[610] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Buhhdust Princess wrote: if this gets nerfed, will just use rapiers/lokis in the future and take more of them.
100 rapiers and 100 lokis cannot web a ship as strongly as 1 vindicator That's not the point. The point is that 5x Rapiers or 5x dual web Lokis will make any ships go so slow that any blap dreads can hit any ships anyways. And it's also a point that when enough 60% webs are applied, it doesn't matter anylonger even if your speed still aren't as low as the Vindicator can web someone down to because when the speed comes under a specific point, it doesn't matter anylonger that the Vindicator can web you better. If a ship does 8 m/s or 15 m/s wont matter as anything can hit those ships.
No amount of rapiers will let a dread hit a AB cruiser. (unless you count doing around 500 dps at 40km)
NightmareX wrote:Also, i'm really wondering about what makes the Vindicator more powerfull / special than a Curse, Rapier, web Loki (yes i own one my self), Falcon and even the Marauders just to name a few.
ok i had to add this here.
Curse - Surely you are joking Rapier - EHP/res/synergy with blap dreads Loki - same as rapier except slightly less on the EHP side Falcon... can't even be compared since its an entirely different kind of ewar.
Marauders.. waht? BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
452
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 18:19:00 -
[611] - Quote
Nag'o wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Buhhdust Princess wrote: if this gets nerfed, will just use rapiers/lokis in the future and take more of them.
100 rapiers and 100 lokis cannot web a ship as strongly as 1 vindicator That's true, but a single Rapier with 3 webs can slow down a ship to a effectively similar speed the Vindicator can, from 4 times the distance. If the Vindicator had that bonus you could say it's OP. I'm out of here.
Webs are OP, so both web range bonuses and web strength bonuses are overpowered. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1710
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 18:53:00 -
[612] - Quote
Give webs an optimal of 5 km and a falloff of 4.
Would be more interesting.
Analog is always better. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Nag'o
Cuisinart Inc. Insidious Empire
36
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 19:18:00 -
[613] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:NightmareX wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Buhhdust Princess wrote: if this gets nerfed, will just use rapiers/lokis in the future and take more of them.
100 rapiers and 100 lokis cannot web a ship as strongly as 1 vindicator That's not the point. The point is that 5x Rapiers or 5x dual web Lokis will make any ships go so slow that any blap dreads can hit any ships anyways. And it's also a point that when enough 60% webs are applied, it doesn't matter anylonger even if your speed still aren't as low as the Vindicator can web someone down to because when the speed comes under a specific point, it doesn't matter anylonger that the Vindicator can web you better. If a ship does 8 m/s or 15 m/s wont matter as anything can hit those ships. No amount of rapiers will let a dread hit a AB cruiser. (unless you count doing around 500 dps at 40km) Another dread on the field kills the Vindi before it webs the cruiser to a stop. Boom, 1bi+ isk deserved ship loss for attempting to cap blap a cruiser. Besides, no niche use of a ship should not be used as argument because a nerf will affect ALL the ship's uses. Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality. |
NightmareX
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
411
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 19:18:00 -
[614] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Curse - Surely you are joking Rapier - EHP/res/synergy with blap dreads Loki - same as rapier except slightly less on the EHP side Falcon... can't even be compared since its an entirely different kind of ewar.
Marauders.. waht? 1. The Curse have the full ability to disable your whole ship as it eats up your cap pretty fast. And at the same time can go under anyones guns as it have the ability to tracking disrupt you into oblivion. Not overpowered at all.
2. The Rapier is still able to web you enough from longer distances that it makes it a very powerfull ability. Use 3-4 Rapiers and you are pretty much not moving at all, almost. But then, a Vindicator cost 5-6 times more than a Rapier.
3. The Loki i have with dual Federation Navy Webs is very powerfull and it also have a pretty high amount of EHP. Enough of those Lokis makes the web power insane. So before you will be happy with webs, CCP needs to nerf the webs itself into oblivion, because someone will have a fleet with enough webs fitted that makes ANY ships to be almost stationary anyways.
4. Don't get me started with the Falcon. Everyone knows that it's the most overpowered ewar ship in the game. So thinking you can just get webs nerfed on some few ships and not the ECM's nerfed on some ships is a sweet dream.
And lastly, the Marauders are extremely powerfull for what you are paying for. They gets tons of abilities other ships can dream of getting.
So the point is that the Vindicator will be obsolete without the web bonus it have now in the same way as a Falcon will be useless and obsolete without it's ECM bonuses. Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos.
Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama (31.10.2013): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=291945 Rebirth 4: http://tinyurl.com/ktfyalo |
Gorski Car
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
175
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 19:29:00 -
[615] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Give webs an optimal of 5 km and a falloff of 4.
Would be more interesting.
Analog is always better.
Give webs a 40 sec reload |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
788
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 19:32:00 -
[616] - Quote
Gorski Car wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Give webs an optimal of 5 km and a falloff of 4.
Would be more interesting.
Analog is always better. Give webs a 40 sec reload
You can always fit two webs and stagger them, you know. |
Tawa Suyo
TURN LEFT
74
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 19:45:00 -
[617] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:because someone will have a fleet with enough webs fitted that makes ANY ships to be almost stationary anyways.
Two 90% webs are more slowing than infinite 60% webs. You literally cannot bring enough lokis. How do you not understand this?
Stack-ing pen-al-ties. |
NightmareX
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
413
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 19:49:00 -
[618] - Quote
Tawa Suyo wrote:NightmareX wrote:because someone will have a fleet with enough webs fitted that makes ANY ships to be almost stationary anyways. Two 90% webs are more slowing than infinite 60% webs. You literally cannot bring enough lokis. How do you not understand this? Stack-ing pen-al-ties. And how do you not understand that it doesn't matter as the speeds are so slow with 60% webs on normal ships that it doesn't matter that the Vindicator webs you better. Once you hit enough low speed, your are as much f**ked with 5x Loki's or even just 5x Megathrons as you are with 1x Vindicator.
Do you get that? Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos.
Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama (31.10.2013): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=291945 Rebirth 4: http://tinyurl.com/ktfyalo |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
788
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 19:55:00 -
[619] - Quote
I say we just remove tackle altogether: it's not very sporting, you know. This game needs more honoure. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1710
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 20:13:00 -
[620] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Curse - Surely you are joking Rapier - EHP/res/synergy with blap dreads Loki - same as rapier except slightly less on the EHP side Falcon... can't even be compared since its an entirely different kind of ewar.
Marauders.. waht? 1. The Curse have the full ability to disable your whole ship as it eats up your cap pretty fast. And at the same time can go under anyones guns as it have the ability to tracking disrupt you into oblivion. Not overpowered at all. 2. The Rapier is still able to web you enough from longer distances that it makes it a very powerfull ability. Use 3-4 Rapiers and you are pretty much not moving at all, almost. But then, a Vindicator cost 5-6 times more than a Rapier. 3. The Loki i have with dual Federation Navy Webs that can web out to 59 km with the webs overloaded in a fleet is extremely powerfull and it also have a pretty high amount of EHP. Enough of those Loki's makes the web power insane. So before you will be happy with webs, CCP needs to nerf the webs itself into oblivion, because someone will have a fleet with enough webs fitted that makes ANY ships to be almost stationary anyways. 4. Don't get me started with the Falcon. Everyone knows that it's the most overpowered ewar ship in the game, PERIOD. So thinking you can just get webs nerfed on some few ships and not the ECM's nerfed on some ships is a sweet dream. And lastly, the Marauders are extremely powerfull for what you are paying for. They gets tons of abilities other ships can dream of getting. So the point is that the Vindicator will be obsolete without the web bonus it have now in the same way as a Falcon will be useless and obsolete without it's ECM bonuses.
1. The Curse is one of the most overrated ships around. It has some neat bonuses but its nowhere near overpowered.
2. Web range bonuses should be nerfed too, i just don't hate them as much as 90% webs.
3. ewar t3's need some heavy rebalance yes.
4. ECM is a ****** system.
Pointing out that something is stupidly designed isn't a very good argument to keep something else stupid. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
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Batelle
Komm susser Tod
541
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 20:14:00 -
[621] - Quote
as I learned recently, 90% webs are only twice as good as 80% webs once a target has been webbed long enough to slow down to its new top speed. Up until that point they function exactly the same. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2223
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 20:17:00 -
[622] - Quote
Nag'o wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Buhhdust Princess wrote: if this gets nerfed, will just use rapiers/lokis in the future and take more of them.
100 rapiers and 100 lokis cannot web a ship as strongly as 1 vindicator That's true, but a single Rapier with 3 webs can slow down a ship to a effectively similar speed the Vindicator can, from 4 times the distance. If the Vindicator had that bonus you could say it's OP. I'm out of here.
Well, unless I did the math wrong it is not true. After about the 8th web your effective speed is zero (assuming your normal speed is 100km/s)...irrespective of the whether it is a 60% speed reduction or a 90% speed reduction. With the Vindicator it is the 6th web that will get you, effectively to zero.
Even an interceptor is in trouble with 8 60% webs--i.e. he isn't going anywhere. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
NightmareX
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
413
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 20:21:00 -
[623] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:1. The Curse is one of the most overrated ships around. It has some neat bonuses but its nowhere near overpowered.
2. Web range bonuses should be nerfed too, i just don't hate them as much as 90% webs.
3. ewar t3's need some heavy rebalance yes.
4. ECM is a ****** system.
Pointing out that something is stupidly designed isn't a very good argument to keep something else stupid. 1. Curse is still a very powerfull ship. It's even more powerfull than the Vindicator as the Vindicator can only slows you ship down.
2. Just admit it that you want webs removed so you can feel safe in your frig / cruiser when going close range to any ships.
3. Nah, the ewar on the T3's are fine. However, some T3's would need some tank nerfing.
4. ECM is the first thing CCP should considering to change and rebalance when it's about ewar.
Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos.
Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama (31.10.2013): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=291945 Rebirth 4: http://tinyurl.com/ktfyalo |
Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
89
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 20:23:00 -
[624] - Quote
WTB Honorable 1v1 frigate combat at the sun with the immeasurably OP daredevil, scourge of New Eden. The Law is a point of View |
Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
788
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 20:24:00 -
[625] - Quote
Don't be surprised if you see an unannounced change implemented a week before the next Rubicon update... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1017
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 20:24:00 -
[626] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Nag'o wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Buhhdust Princess wrote: if this gets nerfed, will just use rapiers/lokis in the future and take more of them.
100 rapiers and 100 lokis cannot web a ship as strongly as 1 vindicator That's true, but a single Rapier with 3 webs can slow down a ship to a effectively similar speed the Vindicator can, from 4 times the distance. If the Vindicator had that bonus you could say it's OP. I'm out of here. Well, unless I did the math wrong it is not true. After about the 8th web your effective speed is zero (assuming your normal speed is 100km/s)...irrespective of the whether it is a 60% speed reduction or a 90% speed reduction. With the Vindicator it is the 6th web that will get you, effectively to zero. Even an interceptor is in trouble with 8 60% webs--i.e. he isn't going anywhere.
Yes, you did the math wrong. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
1710
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 20:32:00 -
[627] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:1. The Curse is one of the most overrated ships around. It has some neat bonuses but its nowhere near overpowered.
2. Web range bonuses should be nerfed too, i just don't hate them as much as 90% webs.
3. ewar t3's need some heavy rebalance yes.
4. ECM is a ****** system.
Pointing out that something is stupidly designed isn't a very good argument to keep something else stupid. 1. Curse is still a very powerfull ship. It's even more powerfull than the Vindicator as the Vindicator can only slows you ship down. 2. Just admit it that you want webs removed so you can feel safe in your frig / cruiser when going close range to any ships. 3. Nah, the ewar on the T3's are fine. However, some T3's would need some tank nerfing. 4. ECM is the first thing CCP should considering to change and rebalance when it's about ewar.
I like this numbering system.
1. no 2. no, i do think webs are the most powerful ewar second only to points however, could use a minor change. 3. yes, thats why i said ewar t3's, not the ewar on t3's. The main problem with them is the apeshit crazy tank. same as the vindi (I don't actually have much of a problem with 90% webs on cruisers/frigs. I think they should be 80% at most but yea, don't really mind) 4. It just needs to be completely revamped, its not just imbalanced, its also simply a non-fun mechanic
And Teckos Pech, you are quite bad at math. BYDI recruitment closed-ish |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2223
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 20:32:00 -
[628] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Nag'o wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Buhhdust Princess wrote: if this gets nerfed, will just use rapiers/lokis in the future and take more of them.
100 rapiers and 100 lokis cannot web a ship as strongly as 1 vindicator That's true, but a single Rapier with 3 webs can slow down a ship to a effectively similar speed the Vindicator can, from 4 times the distance. If the Vindicator had that bonus you could say it's OP. I'm out of here. Well, unless I did the math wrong it is not true. After about the 8th web your effective speed is zero (assuming your normal speed is 100km/s)...irrespective of the whether it is a 60% speed reduction or a 90% speed reduction. With the Vindicator it is the 6th web that will get you, effectively to zero. Even an interceptor is in trouble with 8 60% webs--i.e. he isn't going anywhere. Yes, you did the math wrong.
Really, show your work then.
Here is mine, if a bit messy:
Number of Webs + 1ModifierBase Speed AdjustmentModified Speed AdjustmentBase Speed 1200 KM 010.40.4480 10.8691199810.40.347647992166.871036314 20.5705831440.40.22823325738.085520184 30.2829551540.40.1131820624.310597692 40.105992650.40.042397060.1827566685 50.0299911670.40.0119964670.0021924343 60.0064101830.40.0025640730.0000056216 70.001034920.40.0004139680.0000000023 80.0001262130.45.04851E-050.0000000000
One should be able to copy and paste that into Excel to make it look "pretty" again. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
580
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 20:42:00 -
[629] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote: 4. It just needs to be completely revamped, its not just imbalanced, its also simply a non-fun mechanic
Next thing you know CCP will add the terrible data/relic site hacking mechanic to jamming. Not today spaghetti. |
Naomi Anthar
167
|
Posted - 2013.12.06 20:42:00 -
[630] - Quote
... i'm evil ... i mean Suddenly defends this bonus so desperately. That ... the evil part of my personality smiles whenever i think they could remove this bonus.
The amount of tears shed, already even before change is even presented on forums in official topic is enormous.
God only knows how mad they would be if that change would go through.
And i don't hate that alliance. No reason. But that would be funny ;))).
The biggest problem i have with Suddenly arguments is that they compare Vindi to ... T2 specialized cruiser for example. What kind of sick and stupid comparison is this ? You need compare it to other battleships especially faction, most notably other pirate battleships. Where everyone agress that Vindi got upper hand. And if he does not agree he is probably from certain low sec alliance.
I'm all in favour of pirate ships having unique bonuses. But if it is really strong as in this case ... who knows maybe we need other one ?
For now i will just cheer, reading how Vindi and other serpentis are underpowered. After all reading only serious posts is boring. Some trolling and comedy is always welcome. |
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