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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
560
|
Posted - 2013.12.09 18:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
Oh look.
All these veteran FW pilots have made their ISKies and want to turn the money printer off now.
If you kill the income in FW you're going to set FW back to the stone age that existed before they revamped FW. Most of those farming alts feed PLEXes and ships to the PvP mains. Go ahead and kill FW income so in 6 months time I can come to the forums and see you whining that "LowSec is empty and we have no targets".
FW was irrelevant before the updates and LowSec was a backwater. CCP gave new life to both when they updated FW and later on with exploration. If you want to kill FW, make it so that PvPers have to spend more time doing carebear stuff to afford their ships and become more risk averse as a result. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
561
|
Posted - 2013.12.09 18:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cyber SGB wrote:Roime wrote:Rainbow Dash was rather obviously sarcastic, but FW L4s are not really relevant to this thread- I don't care if FW mission runners make 2bil/hr no matter how broken it is, since their mission running has no effect on system occupancy. The hundreds of stealth bombers flying around are irrelevant.
Disposable plex farming alts, however, can't be ignored. These farmers will eventually push the system vulnerable if left unattended. No RF timers, no PVP, just week old alts orbiting a button.
Isn't this the same type of stuff when people complain about "Disposable Gank Alts"? So, is there a trend here of disposable alts being a problem in the game? Or is it just a matter of, people only complain when it is their gameplay that is ****** with? Enquiring minds want to know.
I'm pretty sure the problem here is that people in FW don't like being unable to catch Condors. Like when you have a gang of like 5 frigates and that one Condor warps out... clearly that's OP.
ccp pls nerf conderr. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
563
|
Posted - 2013.12.09 18:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Is there a technical hurdle with implementing timer rollbacks? The timer is already there and knows if someone for one faction or both is within range and uncloaked. No one home? Poof back to original time.
+1 for timer rollbacks
P.S. Please make the rats slightly tougher and have them shoot anyone who isn't in their faction that enters the plex.
You should make them jam those people, too. FW plexes should be MILITIA ONLY. Militia race master race. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
563
|
Posted - 2013.12.09 19:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
Dread Delgarth wrote:Or you pick up a combat ship on d-scan, warp to the gate and suddenly the ship disappears off your radar - he cloaked as soon as he picked your ship up on short range.
Hm you're right.
I think they should also disable warp drives inside of plexes, cuz targets might warp out, too. That is clearly OP and "depressing". Warp drives should be disabled within 100km of the button until the site is completed.
AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
566
|
Posted - 2013.12.09 19:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:On the other hand though I would support a full, all out war between the empires.
Something tells me you will not be disappointed on that one. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
570
|
Posted - 2013.12.09 19:40:00 -
[6] - Quote
Roime wrote:Xuixien wrote:Oh look.
All these veteran FW pilots have made their ISKies and want to turn the money printer off now.
If you kill the income in FW you're going to set FW back to the stone age that existed before they revamped FW. Most of those farming alts feed PLEXes and ships to the PvP mains. Go ahead and kill FW income so in 6 months time I can come to the forums and see you whining that "LowSec is empty and we have no targets".
FW was irrelevant before the updates and LowSec was a backwater. CCP gave new life to both when they updated FW and later on with exploration. If you want to kill FW, make it so that PvPers have to spend more time doing carebear stuff to afford their ships and become more risk averse as a result. Reading is hard, rite We don't want to "kill FW income". We want to change plexing so that everybody has to actually fight for the plex, or lose the time spent. You sound like you want FW to be some kind of isk printer for everyone else.
Reading is hard, because I clearly was not responding to the various posts in this thread calling for a nerf to FW income. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
571
|
Posted - 2013.12.09 20:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
Lfod Shi wrote:I spent just over a week in FW, popped a few ships, shot at a few structures, sat in space a lot, and got yelled at by my own militia for closing a plex.
And then another time I got scolded for maintaining range and not warping straight into the middle of the wannabe blob. Who had control during that single engagement? I did. You're welcome.
Really wanted to enjoy it, but didn't. I support making it better.
When I was in FW, they complained when you farmed.
Then, when there was not much farming being done, they complained about system control.
Eventually you learn to just ignore certain people.
AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
574
|
Posted - 2013.12.09 20:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Little Dragon Khamez wrote: I'd like an empty low sec too, but that's because I like to explore without using probes and rat at belts, but I fully accept that other people have the right to deny me my spoils, how are you any different to a miner or a hauler complaining about gankers?
Good lord. Are you ignorant, or just being obtuse? You really don't get what the purpose of this thread is, do you?
She has a point, though.
Miner complains: "This is not fair! This is ruining my game! Low SP characters in cheap, disposable ships can just come and ruin my play with no consequence to themselves!"
FWer complains: "This is not fair! This is ruining my game! Low SP characters in cheap, disposable ships can just come and ruin my play with no consequence to themselves!"
I mean, you and I flew in FW together for a long while. You know that I know how frustrating it can be when a target gets away... but there's really no solution to it. People will still be able to warp out of a plex when you're on DScan. Making them have to jump through extra hurdles to cap a plex, reducing payouts, making "no cloak zones", making the rats harder... it will not give you more kills, because people can still simply warp out when there's someone on scan.
Also it's nice to know that if I'm really busy IRL and need to get some quick ISK to PvP with, I can run a few plexes. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
596
|
Posted - 2013.12.09 21:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
Looking at 1 FW corp's killboard (this is just 1):
611,867,213,193 ISK killed.
267,666,828,798 ISK lost.
For a rough total of around 900 billion.
You think that **** just grows on trees? AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
602
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Posted - 2013.12.09 22:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
I like the false premise that you should have to PvP that these sorts of threads are always based on.
In the end it's really a judgement call - an opinion not actually rooted in anything that would actually improve the game. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
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Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
612
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Posted - 2013.12.09 23:54:00 -
[11] - Quote
Starbuck05 wrote:And what the h3lll does HTFU even mean ffs .... speak english( or atleast somethin close to that , like me ) because i cba to learn every acronym there is just because you are lazy ..
It means "Harden The **** Up" - in other words - stop whining.
Also it's ironic that you tell us to "speak English and stop using acronyms" when your post contained 2 of your own acronyms. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 15:37:00 -
[12] - Quote
Roime wrote:I'm not talking about hisec mining, mission running or null anom running. Bears can be bears, they are involved in PVE activities.
Factional Warfare plexes, however, are explicitly meant to facilitate PVP combat. Running plexes is the only way to push FW systems to vulnerable state so that the Infrastructure Hub can be attacked. It's the equivalent of reinforcing structures in null sov.
I'll wait for some quotes from CCP that "Factional Warfare plexes are explicitly meant to facilitate PvP combat". I'll wait for any quote from CCP, actually, that's contrary to the idea that FW is a mix of PvE and PvP. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 17:46:00 -
[13] - Quote
Roime wrote:Factional WAR fare is itself pretty self-explinatory. However, for the thicker ones like you:
Awww well aren't you an angry little boy. Show me where the WCS touched you.
Also nothing you've quoted states that "FW plexes are 'explicitly' meant to facilitate PvP". In fact, 90% of what you quoted doesn't even references complexes. Sorry little dude - reading is hard, right? Try again - FW is a mix of PvP. Plexes moved "too far towards PvE - we want more PvP" =! "complexes are explicitly meant to facilitate PvP". They're a mix of both, obviously - there's an NPC you have to kill and you get an LP reward right? PvE. You can also fight over plexes, right? PvP. They're a mix of both and nowhere, ever, did CCP state "FW plexes are only for PvP."
Roime wrote:FW plexes are all about PVP, this isn't even open to discussion.
Yeah well, it is. And you just got smacked, son. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 17:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
People whining that they want "timer rollbacks" - this mechanic already exists, it's called defensive plexing.
Really the entire "rollback" argument boils down to this: a spirit of spitefulness because some people are mad that someone else refused to engage in Space Bushido. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 17:54:00 -
[15] - Quote
Roime wrote:Ginger Barbarella wrote:So, basically, OP is raging at the fact that he can't catch those nasty, stabbed farmers? And he's saying that QCATS has never --- NEVER--- done any farming (and doesn't to this day)? Or is he saying that he wants a nice place to do so without bothering with anyone bugging his farming?
Goonies are so much better at this trolling; QCATS really needs to learn how to do it from them. Why are you speaking in third person, when you can address me directly? No, I'm asking for a fix to FW so that we aren't forced to chase stabbed cloaky farmers. Please quote the part where I said that QCATS has never NEVER farmed, Also quote the part where I wanted a nice place to farm in peace. You do sound like a ******** little troll, but you can get a second chance.
The butthurt is strong with this one.
QQCats?
CCP - please stop forcing QQCats to chase cloaky stabbed farmers. This is a sandbox for Christ's sake! AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 18:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
Roime wrote:Xuixien wrote:
CCP - please stop forcing QQCats to chase cloaky stabbed farmers. This is a sandbox for Christ's sake!
Happy that you agree with us <3
Actually I'm making a mockery of everything you say because you're both whiny and clearly narrow minded.
I guess the sarcasm went over your head! AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 18:23:00 -
[17] - Quote
Roime wrote:I'm sorry little miss but you asked for CCP quotes, and got served.
Sorry little guy - you said that FW plexes were "all about PvP". I asked for some quotes from CCP stating that FW plexes were "all about PvP", and you failed to deliver. Every. single. quote. you posted supported the notion that FW is a mix of PvE and PvP. You can insist on your false premise all you want - you'll just be wrong more than once.
Roime wrote:you can show a CCP quote that proves they intended plexes to be safe PVE with high end payouts that affects WZ control, and maybe then we can discuss this again with you.
Except I made no such claim. You claimed that FW plexes were "all about PvP" - however, in countering your point, I made no such claim that FW plexes were "all about PvE farming". Put the straw man down. It can't help you here. And neither will thinking in false dichotomies. Sorry - as you've demonstrated your inability to comprehend - the issue is more than black or white.
I simply said that FW plexes are a mix of PvE and PvP - a statement that the quotes you provided support.
Sucks to be you little guy. But I understand if you need an excuse to end this discussion. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 18:30:00 -
[18] - Quote
samualvimes wrote:The problem with not having something like timer rollback is that it gives a huge disadvantage to the defender in his home system.
if the attacker plexes for 10 minutes in a 15minute capture plex in a low/non contested system then the defender has to deplex for 25 minutes to close that plex out for pretty much no lp.
Meanwhile the farmer has moved to the next plex and has started plexing that 15 minutes or even 20 minute plex.
Either the defender deplexes or he gives chase to get rid of the farmer
If he deplexes the farmer wins the other plex and starts another one on top of that.
If he doesn't the farmer just returns and finishes off the last few minutes and wins.
If he gives chase it involves a pretty ****** PvP fit to beat the guy especially around novices and smalls where you can't get the high alpha ships you need to be able to take them out without scrams coming out of the proverbial....
Confirming that this scenario exists in a vacuum and there's no way to get a corp mate to help you run plexers off.
AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 18:39:00 -
[19] - Quote
RAW23 wrote:Wouldn't the consequence of timer rollbacks be that one guy in a Dramiel (or most any other faction frigate) would be able to defend about ten systems from all solo T1 frigs? Basically, if the timer rolled back each time it would mean that anyone in a ship superior to a T1 frig could push any solo guys out of several plexes every single minute just by patrolling them and in a fast ship would be able to continually reset the timers in many systems. T1 frigs would be pretty much useless and bringing a bigger or better ship than a solo plexer would always be sufficient to secure as many timers as the bigger ship could reach within the countdown window. I just can't see that being viable.
You are absolutely correct.
Basically very little farming would actually get done beyond a few people baiting for fights in plexes. This would have two outcomes:
- There would be less ISK made, and people would start abandoning FW because it would become too expensive.
- The warzone would barely move.
The net result: these same people who are QQcatting about farming would then be QQcatting about system control and lack of targets. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 18:43:00 -
[20] - Quote
samualvimes wrote:RAW23 wrote:Wouldn't the consequence of timer rollbacks be that one guy in a Dramiel (or most any other faction frigate) would be able to defend about ten systems from all solo T1 frigs? Basically, if the timer rolled back each time it would mean that anyone in a ship superior to a T1 frig could push any solo guys out of several plexes every single minute just by patrolling them and in a fast ship would be able to continually reset the timers in many systems. T1 frigs would be pretty much useless and bringing a bigger or better ship than a solo plexer would always be sufficient to secure as many timers as the bigger ship could reach within the countdown window. I just can't see that being viable. Yeah but if there are 10 people in 10 plexes they should be able to take a dramiel don't you think? Maybe if they you know teamed up?
Oh cool - then the Dramiel pilot wouldn't even have to warp into 10 plexes in order to rollback 10 plexes! AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
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Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 18:45:00 -
[21] - Quote
samualvimes wrote:Xuixien wrote:RAW23 wrote:Wouldn't the consequence of timer rollbacks be that one guy in a Dramiel (or most any other faction frigate) would be able to defend about ten systems from all solo T1 frigs? Basically, if the timer rolled back each time it would mean that anyone in a ship superior to a T1 frig could push any solo guys out of several plexes every single minute just by patrolling them and in a fast ship would be able to continually reset the timers in many systems. T1 frigs would be pretty much useless and bringing a bigger or better ship than a solo plexer would always be sufficient to secure as many timers as the bigger ship could reach within the countdown window. I just can't see that being viable. You are absolutely correct. Basically very little farming would actually get done beyond a few people baiting for fights in plexes. This would have two outcomes:
- There would be less ISK made, and people would start abandoning FW because it would become too expensive.
- The warzone would barely move.
The net result: these same people who are QQcatting about farming would then be QQcatting about system control and lack of targets. The warzone WOULD move however it will move due to pushes by people willing to engage in PvP and make the strategic moves not to whoever the famers are farming for this month.
Exactly what I said: The WZ would barely move.
AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 18:48:00 -
[22] - Quote
samualvimes wrote:Xuixien wrote:samualvimes wrote:RAW23 wrote:Wouldn't the consequence of timer rollbacks be that one guy in a Dramiel (or most any other faction frigate) would be able to defend about ten systems from all solo T1 frigs? Basically, if the timer rolled back each time it would mean that anyone in a ship superior to a T1 frig could push any solo guys out of several plexes every single minute just by patrolling them and in a fast ship would be able to continually reset the timers in many systems. T1 frigs would be pretty much useless and bringing a bigger or better ship than a solo plexer would always be sufficient to secure as many timers as the bigger ship could reach within the countdown window. I just can't see that being viable. Yeah but if there are 10 people in 10 plexes they should be able to take a dramiel don't you think? Maybe if they you know teamed up? Oh cool - then the Dramiel pilot wouldn't even have to warp into 10 plexes in order to rollback 10 plexes! If those people all systematically took and held plexes and fought to hold them there wouldn't be any rollback....
Oh so what you're saying is people should pile into plexes 10 at a time?
Because otherwise your statement makes no sense.
DOT DOT DOT
AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 18:52:00 -
[23] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Xuixien wrote:samualvimes wrote:RAW23 wrote:Wouldn't the consequence of timer rollbacks be that one guy in a Dramiel (or most any other faction frigate) would be able to defend about ten systems from all solo T1 frigs? Basically, if the timer rolled back each time it would mean that anyone in a ship superior to a T1 frig could push any solo guys out of several plexes every single minute just by patrolling them and in a fast ship would be able to continually reset the timers in many systems. T1 frigs would be pretty much useless and bringing a bigger or better ship than a solo plexer would always be sufficient to secure as many timers as the bigger ship could reach within the countdown window. I just can't see that being viable. Yeah but if there are 10 people in 10 plexes they should be able to take a dramiel don't you think? Maybe if they you know teamed up? Oh cool - then the Dramiel pilot wouldn't even have to warp into 10 plexes in order to rollback 10 plexes! Only if they make the strategic decision to actively engage the Darmiel pilot together. Then it is a choice of killing the dram and rerunning the timers with all of them, a select few of them, or playing avoidance games (warping around to 10 plexes and activating the gate takes time). Also, I generally don't think the best implementation would be instant rollbacks of the timer as soon as someone cloaks or warps out of the plex because of this scenario. I think it should start counting back to the original time at an enhanced rate (10 seconds for ever 1 or so) until it reaches its base timer). But that is really more of tweaking the idea than tossing the idea out itself. Why are you against timer rollbacks?
So you want the timer to count backwards 10x as fast as it counts upwards?
Yeah. Reset all your plexes to chase the Dramiel around. Then go back to running timers so that... another solo pilot could come in and make you reset all your plexes. Wow - that would be a UTOPIA man.
So if you plex for 10 minutes, and warp out - the timer will be back to 0 by the time you return - which is effectively the same net outcome to an instant rollback. Or if you cloak, the WT only has to sit there for a minute and not only rolls back the timer, but captures the plex. In 1 minute. Nice idea!!!! AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 18:55:00 -
[24] - Quote
Guys I got an idea.
They should remove plexes and missions in FW as they exist and morph the two.
All missions from agents should be kill scenarios. "You must kill 1 WT in xx system." When you enter that system, a plex opens up. When an enemy warps to the plex, you must kill them in honnourable Bushido combat in order to get your LP reward.
After all FW is all about PvP and nothing else. CCP said so! AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 18:59:00 -
[25] - Quote
samualvimes wrote:
This shows that not only do you not know how plexing works but that you also haven't read any of the above as it's all explained in there.
"You made one minor error in your post. I will thus ignore all the hard points you made and just reply to that one error, and use that error to conclude that you don't know how plexing works at all."
Cool, I made a mistake.
Now let's get back to discussing those hard points that were raised. Or is that too hard?
AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 19:00:00 -
[26] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Xuixien wrote:Guys I got an idea.
They should remove plexes and missions in FW as they exist and morph the two.
All missions from agents should be kill scenarios. "You must kill 1 WT in xx system." When you enter that system, a plex opens up. When an enemy warps to the plex, you must kill them in honnourable Bushido combat in order to get your LP reward.
After all FW is all about PvP and nothing else. CCP said so! An interesting idea, but I think Implementing Timer rollbacks will be enough for now.
As already shown, timer rollbacks would be a terrible and imbalanced idea.
AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 19:08:00 -
[27] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Xuixien wrote:Thanatos Marathon wrote:Xuixien wrote:Guys I got an idea.
They should remove plexes and missions in FW as they exist and morph the two.
All missions from agents should be kill scenarios. "You must kill 1 WT in xx system." When you enter that system, a plex opens up. When an enemy warps to the plex, you must kill them in honnourable Bushido combat in order to get your LP reward.
After all FW is all about PvP and nothing else. CCP said so! An interesting idea, but I think Implementing Timer rollbacks will be enough for now. As already shown, timer rollbacks would be a terrible and imbalanced idea. And there's the rub. You think that it would be a terrible and imbalanced idea. However if you look at the people that are actually in FW that are posting in the thread you will find that most are in favor of Timer Rollbacks. I'm not sure what makes you think it would be a terrible and imbalanced idea because it wouldn't stop farming, it would just make it take slightly more work.
I don't care who suggested the change or what their KB looks like (like seriously I had to LOL @ that guy who was posting about how his corp is #1 or something on KBs). The idea itself has little merit. Making it so that 1 guy could effectively null out the time investment of multiple people running plexes simply by making them warp out would cause a mass exodus of PvP pilots from FW - cuz they would no longer be able to afford ship losses.
There is already a rollback mechanic - it's call defensive plexing. But you guys don't want to do that because either
- You don't make enough LP from it, you dirty ISK/hr farmbears.
- You actually don't care about the PvE/system control aspect of FW and just want PvP kills - as such, are treating it as nothing more than a LowSec version of RvB.
AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
|
Posted - 2013.12.10 19:11:00 -
[28] - Quote
samualvimes wrote:Ok well your point is that it would allow the defender to capture the plex in one minute. Lets disect that alone shall we?
No, that is not my point. As I already stated, I had a brain fart when typing that post. Keep obsessing over an error I made - it shows that your argument has no merit.
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Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
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Posted - 2013.12.10 19:20:00 -
[29] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:So 1 guy in a Faction Fit Daredevil with Links could cause issues for a half a dozen plexers until they ganged up and killed him? This already happens. The nulling out of their "investment" is because they were unwilling to fight for the combat plex. They can kill him, scoop the loot, and then go back to plexing like bosses. Or they can put 2 people in each plex instead of 1.
That QQcat guy was just QQcatting that it's unfair how it takes 2-3 guys to shut down 1 plexer.
Now you're suggesting that 1 guy should be able to shut down 10 plexers.
And you're also suggesting that people should have reduced payouts by proxy of needing more people to defend the plexes - because heaven forbid they not take a fight they'll lose (such as a Daredevil vs a Rifter). So you're also punishing people for not having the right amount of SP or the right type of ship.
And what happens if you put two people in a plex? 4 people will show up to run them out. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
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Posted - 2013.12.10 19:23:00 -
[30] - Quote
I think it's a great idea that a gang of pirates that have nothing to do with FW should be able to affect system control by running people out of plexes and rolling their timers back. +1 AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
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Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
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Posted - 2013.12.10 19:26:00 -
[31] - Quote
samualvimes wrote:If someone is in a T1 frigate on their own in FW and get forced out of a plex by a daredevil because they had no back up you actually think it's right they should be able to resume exactly where they left off?
You're right, FW should only be a place for ~ELITEPVPERS~. Newbies should stick to RvB.
samualvimes wrote:What they are saying is that the plexer should hold the plex for the time to keep it. if that means succesfully holding 5 plexes of 2 people instead of 10 plexes of 1 so be it. This encourages teamwork which is a good thing.
Cool, then make LP payouts individual (instead of split between who's there) and increase them.
AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
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Posted - 2013.12.10 19:29:00 -
[32] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:I'm not sure how often you play in FW or if at all
I did it for a year.
Thanatos Marathon wrote:but it is common practice to have more than 1 person in a plex if you actually are trying to drive up/down the contested rate of a system
Only when the system is already near vulnerable and you're trying to take the iHub and expect an enemy response.
Thanatos Marathon wrote:"And what happens if you put two people in a plex? 4 people will show up to run them out" <- happens all the time, how does implementing Timer Rollbacks change that?
You can't figure it out?
You're going to have escalating gangs competing over paltry LP payouts.
AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
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Posted - 2013.12.10 19:31:00 -
[33] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Welcome to the Sandbox.
WELCUM TO THE SANDBOKS NOW PLZ PLEY TEH WAY I THINK YOU SHOOD PLEY
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Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
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Posted - 2013.12.10 19:32:00 -
[34] - Quote
samualvimes wrote:If someone turns up with a superior fighting force then why should you be allowed to keep the field
Right, well this isn't a surprising thing to hear from a Qblobber.
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Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
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Posted - 2013.12.10 19:33:00 -
[35] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Xuixien wrote:samualvimes wrote:If someone is in a T1 frigate on their own in FW and get forced out of a plex by a daredevil because they had no back up you actually think it's right they should be able to resume exactly where they left off? You're right, FW should only be a place for ~ELITEPVPERS~. Newbies should stick to RvB. samualvimes wrote:What they are saying is that the plexer should hold the plex for the time to keep it. if that means succesfully holding 5 plexes of 2 people instead of 10 plexes of 1 so be it. This encourages teamwork which is a good thing. Cool, then make LP payouts individual (instead of split between who's there) and increase them. You're right, FW should only be a place for ~ELITEPVPERS~. Newbies should stick to RvB. <-- I am a 2013 player and am not an elitepvper and I support this change. Why do you think young players won't be able to deal with Timer Rollbacks? For young players teaming up to take down the big bad monster is a common tactic. And some day if they keep at it they become the big bad monster!
IF UR A NOOBIE U SHOULD BE PHORCED TO PLAX IN GROOOPS AND MAKE LESS ISK/HR CUZ THIS IS A SANDBOKS GAIZ
AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
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Posted - 2013.12.10 19:34:00 -
[36] - Quote
CCP PL0X IMPLAMENT CHANGES THAT FAVER ME AND MAI PLYSTYLE CZ THIS IS A SANDBOKS AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
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Posted - 2013.12.10 19:43:00 -
[37] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Running plexes in FW will still pay better than mining in Hisec even with timer rollbacks, and at the same time allows you to pvp. I don't believe this change will cause me to be any broker than I already am.
I think you are greatly overestimating that ISK/hr you get from plexing in FW after the Great Goon Rebalance of 2012 and I think you're grossly underestimating the effect rollbacks would have.
Curently ISK/hr of farming FW plexes: Taking into account travel/search time, killing the rat, dodging hostiles, and being actively hunted - you're looking at around 40-50 million ISK/hr farming FW plexes, which is on par with Level 4 missions, but for more hassle. The only "advantage" is the low entry barrier - which rollbacks would remove. With rollbacks, not only would SP level matter, but you're going to actually have to fit (and lose) PvP boats, get run out of plexes (and lose your time investment) and have to split rewards with other players - at that point it really would realistically drop to mining level income.
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Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
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Posted - 2013.12.10 19:52:00 -
[38] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Rewards are already split when multiple people are in the plex.Also, since when is tons of PvP not an advantage to being in FW?
Timer already rolls back when you chase someone out.
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Xuixien
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Posted - 2013.12.10 19:53:00 -
[39] - Quote
Burtakus wrote:Xuixien wrote:Thanatos Marathon wrote:Running plexes in FW will still pay better than mining in Hisec even with timer rollbacks, and at the same time allows you to pvp. I don't believe this change will cause me to be any broker than I already am. I think you are greatly overestimating that ISK/hr you get from plexing in FW after the Great Goon Rebalance of 2012 and I think you're grossly underestimating the effect rollbacks would have. Curently ISK/hr of farming FW plexes: Taking into account travel/search time, killing the rat, dodging hostiles, and being actively hunted - you're looking at around 40-50 million ISK/hr farming FW plexes, which is on par with Level 4 missions, but for more hassle. The only "advantage" is the low entry barrier - which rollbacks would remove. With rollbacks, not only would SP level matter, but you're going to actually have to fit (and lose) PvP boats, get run out of plexes (and lose your time investment) and have to split rewards with other players - at that point it really would realistically drop to mining level income. So your issues for maintaining the status quo and not implementing a timer rollback is isk making related. You aren't one of the non PvP isk farmers are you?
PvP ships grow on trees.
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Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
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Posted - 2013.12.10 20:03:00 -
[40] - Quote
EDITED for ISD AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
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Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
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Posted - 2013.12.10 20:05:00 -
[41] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Xuixien wrote:Thanatos Marathon wrote:Rewards are already split when multiple people are in the plex. Timer already rolls back when you chase someone out. No, they don't, that is exactly what we are asking for.
Yes they do.
It's called defensive plexing.
If you're not willing to do it why should you get the rewards for it?
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Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
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Posted - 2013.12.10 20:20:00 -
[42] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
You said chasing people out caused the timers to roll back, it does not. Sitting in the plex however does.
So what you're saying is a rollback mechanic already exists?
Thanks. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
617
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Posted - 2013.12.10 20:27:00 -
[43] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Xuixien wrote:Thanatos Marathon wrote:
You said chasing people out caused the timers to roll back, it does not. Sitting in the plex however does.
So what you're saying is a rollback mechanic already exists? Thanks. Yup, all we want is a better one.
You want one that provides you the same reward without putting in the work for it.
GJ, your entitlement is showing finally. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
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Posted - 2013.12.10 20:46:00 -
[44] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:I'm not telling anyone to give me anything
I'm asking CCP to consider making a change to the mechanics of the game that would make it more fun for me
Derp? AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
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Posted - 2013.12.10 23:15:00 -
[45] - Quote
Burtakus wrote:
If your only argument is nothing other than trolling to defend your isk faucet (while admitting you have no interested in FW other than isk) you are adding nothing of value to the discussion.
Your reading comprehension is bad, but that's okay, ISD deleted my post. So it's not your fault that you're operating under a false premise. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
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Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
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Posted - 2013.12.11 02:11:00 -
[46] - Quote
Commander Razama wrote:Contacting the CSM to do something won't bring any change to Faction War. It took YEARS! of complaints to get Faction War what it is today. Been in and out of FW for well over 5 years soon to be 6 I know first hand.
However this does not mean that we do not have a problem. CCP has proven that FW is at the bottom of Eve Care list. Instead they prefer to aid 0.0 peeps and high sec. carebears from meanies that would war dec. them and halt the oh great mining game that is Eve.
The timer Roll back is a great idea. The cloak not so much.
In order to improve the situation in Faction war and have as little butt hurt as possible CCP would have to just deny any ship entry to a plex that has a warp core stabb fitted onto there ship. Why just the stab and not the cloak? because there is no good argument to support having a warp core stab inside a plex. A cloak can be used in pvp inside a plex for Falcon/ Pilgrim support. Also with the new SOE ships cloaks add a element to FW plexing that can't be so easy removed without MASSIVE QQ from all sides of the fence. Remember the 0.0 carebears made their tears known about how their "Ratting" was affected by AFK cloakys in system. Cloaks are a part of the game in many ways and will remain so.
Warp core stabs add nothing to the safty of farmers that can not be achived by someone with a cloak equiped on their ship. What it eliminates from FW plexing is AFK PLEXING. Thanks to not so long ago changes you can no longer run down a timer while using the cloak and uncloak trick. Also you can not keep FW plexs from spawning using this trick as well. Now if someone trys to afk plex with and alt farmer they will have to be active with that plexing alt looking for danger (not just waiting for the warning sounds so they can tab back in and warp out.) and give people a chance to destroy the farmer. Without any warp core stabs the farmer can now be pointed by normal means (not duel scram fits that believe it or not still sometimes fail to hold them in pvp.)
Removing Warp core stabs alone from plexes will still alow people to farm that are activly farming but at the same time limit the ammount of ISK farm and LP items on the market. This will not only improve the gameplay for all players in Faction War to generate more pvp but help those actually engaged in Faction war to earn more money to keep on doing what we all love. Pew Pew.
How long did Tinfoil V and Advanced Bittervetting IV take to train, bro?
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Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
634
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Posted - 2013.12.11 17:50:00 -
[47] - Quote
Tzenick wrote:FW mechanic to just another ISK faucet free for the taking
LP is an ISK sink. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
634
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Posted - 2013.12.11 18:02:00 -
[48] - Quote
Roime wrote:If you haven't noticed, people don't really disagree with me- please note that I'm not only talking for myself. Numerous people from different militias, ex-militia members and even farmers themselves agree that the system has a flaw, and it needs fixing. This issue is not new, the solutions presented here are not new or my personal ideas.
Actually most of the people who are in your camp ITT are... in your corp, QQCats. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
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Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
634
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Posted - 2013.12.11 18:04:00 -
[49] - Quote
Burtakus wrote:Xuixien wrote:This is basically a stealth "force PvErs to PvP" thread. Or a "How dare you challenge my ability to make a lot of isk with no effort, no risk, and no investment in SP/Ships/Fittings"
40-50mil/hr is "a lot of ISK"? Damn son, you need to try WHs. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
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Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
634
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Posted - 2013.12.11 18:20:00 -
[50] - Quote
Notorious Fellon wrote:I adore the cute little grunts who think that stealth and tactics are not allowed in "war".
I bet they hug their guns while they cry themselves asleep at night.
You disgust me.
Here here.
"CCP PL0X NURF GUERRILLAS!" AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
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Xuixien
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634
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Posted - 2013.12.11 18:23:00 -
[51] - Quote
Dread Operative wrote:Obv troll is troll. Anyhow, I support this product. Farming alts have definitely killed my desire to log in, from 300+ kills to 4 in the last 5 months. I am in an almost constant battle to defend my home system with little to no pvp just and spend hour of my time deplexing for little to no reward to undo or prevent damage that is done by someones alt.
CCP should come save you. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
634
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Posted - 2013.12.11 18:36:00 -
[52] - Quote
Burtakus wrote:Second you assume everyone does FW to make isk,
Where?
Burtakus wrote:The Status quo of farming to farm isk only
False premise.
Burtakus wrote:Third you seem to have very strong opinions and a vested interest in keeping the printing press open to those who have no interest in FW other than isk. Why is this, it sounds like you are part of the problem we are facing and are fearful of losing the gravy train. I know you are not alone.
Simple smear tactics: "If you disagree with our (terrible) arguments, then it's obvious you're a dirty farmer! You only disagree with us out of bias, not because our arguments are terrible!"
Your arguments are in fact terrible, and I currently have zero characters in any militia.
Burtakus wrote:Fourth, FW is not an isk faucet or a isk sink, it is a very broken isk transfer mechanism that has significantly deviated from its purpose of creating PvP combat driven game content and turned into a risk free effort free isk printer.
FW is in fact an ISK sink as ISK is removed from the game to cash in LP.
Also, QQCats alone scored 5k kills just last month. I'd say FW is creating a lot of PvP.
Burtakus wrote: When pilots I know that have been in FW for years are either leaving or not logging into due specifically to these issues highlighted something is wrong with the mechanic.
People quitting simply shows that they are individually unhappy, not that there is anything actually wrong with the game. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
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634
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Posted - 2013.12.11 18:54:00 -
[53] - Quote
Davir Sometaww wrote:We have accurately described the problem to you Xuixien and you choose to ignore all proof that is presented.
You haven't presented any "proof". You've presented evidence in the form of anecdotes and how you feel about things and your opinion on what FW "should" be.
In other words you have presented a very flimsy case.
Davir Sometaww wrote:In addition, don't get me wrong but you seem to be trolling this thread.
I admit that I am mildly trolling because a lot of the things you guys post are ridiculous.
Davir Sometaww wrote:In none of your posts have you tried to acknowledge on working out a solution or why there is a problem.
Could it be that... GASP... I don't agree with you that there is a problem that requires a solution!
(See, that's what I mean when I say you guys post some ridiculous things.)
Davir Sometaww wrote:I do think that a rollback timer needs to be implemented in defensive plexing to prevent / halt cloaky/stabbed farmers.
"Any effort spent in dplexing our home systems behind warping in a gang to chase of 1 plexer is too much for us to bear. CCP, you're our only hope." AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
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635
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Posted - 2013.12.11 18:56:00 -
[54] - Quote
Roime wrote:When many people are individually unhappy enough to quit, it does in fact show that there is something wrong the game.
Cool. Well how "many" people have quit the game because of cloaked farmers?
(Oh wait, that's a hard question, so you'll probably just avoid it and accuse me of trolling....)
Roime wrote:On the other hand, a single, unrelated person randomly trolling a thread doesn't mean that there is nothing wrong the game.
Wow this is just... a triumph in logic right there. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
635
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Posted - 2013.12.11 19:05:00 -
[55] - Quote
Shakira Khalessi wrote:I think the developers have a good handle on this thing.
There is way too much personal bias and you play the game the way I want you too type stuff in this proposal to be taken seriously by the devs. It is not like this exact kind of thread has not been brought up by the same small group of people before.
This is pure nonsense.
No! I don't like what you're saying! You're just a troll! People have quit over this issue! Factional WARFARE should be that and NOTHING MORE!!!!!!! AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
635
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Posted - 2013.12.11 19:08:00 -
[56] - Quote
Burtakus wrote:FW is dying.
FW was nothing before.
Now it's relevant enough that entire alliances are joining it.
INB4 "they just join for ISK" - if you think that Nulli, Agony, and TEST didn't/aren't bringing the fights, then you need to stop obsessing over WCS and actually get out into the WZ. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
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636
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Posted - 2013.12.11 19:14:00 -
[57] - Quote
Burtakus wrote:Xuixien wrote:Burtakus wrote:FW is dying. FW was nothing before. Now it's relevant enough that entire alliances are joining it. INB4 "they just join for ISK" - if you think that Nulli, Agony, and TEST didn't/aren't bringing the fights, then you need to stop obsessing over WCS and actually get out into the WZ. Hard to get into the "Warzone" when I have to defend my home against farmers with almost all of my Eve time. Therein lies the issue. Can't fight the war because we are fighting the farmers who don't care about FW beyond transferring isk to another character. And yes, I agree that TEST does bring fights. I do appreciate that when I can engage.
EDIT: Because what I posted was admittedly unfair.
Okay so what you're saying is you want defending your home to be quicker (ie, timer rollbacks)?
That's basically the whole premise behind the rollback suggestion, right? AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
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636
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Posted - 2013.12.11 19:17:00 -
[58] - Quote
Ghost Phius wrote:Read my bio and post here so that I can fill my backyard tear swimming pool to capacity. Almost there with the amount of tears harvested so far, just need another buckets worth then it will be time to swim in the pool of tears.
The tears in this thread are glorious.
I am, in fact, tempted to roll a farming alt just harvest more QQcats. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
636
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Posted - 2013.12.11 19:18:00 -
[59] - Quote
Davir Sometaww wrote:Xuixien wrote:Burtakus wrote:Xuixien wrote:Burtakus wrote:FW is dying. FW was nothing before. Now it's relevant enough that entire alliances are joining it. INB4 "they just join for ISK" - if you think that Nulli, Agony, and TEST didn't/aren't bringing the fights, then you need to stop obsessing over WCS and actually get out into the WZ. Hard to get into the "Warzone" when I have to defend my home against farmers with almost all of my Eve time. Therein lies the issue. Can't fight the war because we are fighting the farmers who don't care about FW beyond transferring isk to another character. And yes, I agree that TEST does bring fights. I do appreciate that when I can engage. EDIT: Because what I posted was admittedly unfair. Okay so what you're saying is you want defending your home to be quicker (ie, timer rollbacks)? That's basically the whole premise behind the rollback suggestion, right? Not when you are spending hours deplexing/constant chasing of AFK/bot/cloaky/stabbed farmers. They have literally zero risk and full time rewards.
Yeah man. No one told you EVE has chores? AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
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636
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Posted - 2013.12.11 19:24:00 -
[60] - Quote
So how many of the "many" people who have quit the game over FW are there?
I toldja he'd ignore my question. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
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Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
636
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Posted - 2013.12.11 19:28:00 -
[61] - Quote
Burtakus wrote:I care about engaging in PvP and WZ control. A couple hours of PvP followed by endless hours of undoing the work of farmers without PvP is not very entertaining.
Yeah that sucks. When I started PvPing, I used to mine for endless hours in order to PvP for only a couple. That wasn't very entertaining, either. But then I joined FW and, luckily, there is a mechanic in place where I can PvE for 1 hour and PvP for 4.
Burtakus wrote:People play games for various reason, entertainment being one of the biggest.
Well like the people in BU always tell me "If something in EVE bores you, even EVE itself, don't do it. EVE is only a job if you make it so."
Speaking of which: It sounds like FW is only a chore because you've made it on - IE, basing in LowSec. I know that's the "cool, hardcore militia" thing to do - but if WZ control is putting a cramp on your style, there are many HiSec systems resting on the periphery of the WZ that you could base out of. Hell, maybe you can even post a whinethread on the forums petitioning CCP to add a few HiSec systems right in the middle of the WZ!
AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
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636
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 19:29:00 -
[62] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Should a 500k SP alt in a throw away frigate be able to do 95% of the tasks required to take sov anywhere in the game? Should they be able to do so with ease while making 40 mil isk/hour or more?
If you answered no to either of these questions then you should be in support of a slight alteration to FW plexing mechanics.
ABSOLUTELY players should be able to affect the EVE Universe when they log in. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
636
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 19:30:00 -
[63] - Quote
Roime wrote:Xuixien we're all ignoring your trolling, you seem to be terribly agitated over this and I feel sorry for you if you think your texts are even worth posting.
Or - "Your points were too hard. Instead of a response, here's a cop out. Umadbro?" AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
636
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 19:32:00 -
[64] - Quote
Burtakus wrote:I can count a dozen from my small corp alone who have either unsubbed or have not logged in for more than a couple of months. A few more have moved to other parts of Eve.
A dozen people quit EVE/FW because they found it boring/unfun!
Wow.
You know, I used to mine - but I found it unfun and stopped. Clearly mining is broken!
Burtakus wrote:Overall though the pool of pilots I used to fly with in a regular basis has significantly shrunk over the past couple of months.
**** happens. Be pro-active, make more friends.
I mean, are you really telling me that there's no one in the other faction who wants to fight you? Those 5k kills are all farmer alts? AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
636
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 19:35:00 -
[65] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Xuixien wrote:Thanatos Marathon wrote:Should a 500k SP alt in a throw away frigate be able to do 95% of the tasks required to take sov anywhere in the game? Should they be able to do so with ease while making 40 mil isk/hour or more?
If you answered no to either of these questions then you should be in support of a slight alteration to FW plexing mechanics. ABSOLUTELY players should be able to affect the EVE Universe when they log in. Sure people should be able to affect the EVE Universe. The question is in how much, how easily, and at what level of risk. Or do you think I should be able to take a 500k SP alt to nul and reinforce everything?
Please put the histrionics away. A 500k SP alt is no more reinforcing things in NullSec than they are flipping entire systems by themselves in FW.
What we're talking about here is a concerted effort on the part of multiple players to effect influence on the WZ. And that is a beautiful thing. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
636
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 19:42:00 -
[66] - Quote
Burtakus wrote:I bite for the troll. I specifically said from my corp of less than 100. I can't speak for other corps on specific numbers. If you can't grasp the implications of that on a broader scale then you probably have yet to leave your parents house.
Yeah sorry - just because I pointed out that 12 people is not statistically relevant doesn't mean I'm a troll nor does it have anything to do with my parents' or their house and whether or not I live there.
I understand. It's frustrating when you want something but have no real valid reason why you should have it, and it's a terrible experience when other people point that out to you.
As far as Roime "ignoring my trolling" - what you are actually doing is ignoring my arguments (in fact denying that they even exist), focusing on a few mildly trollish comments, blowing them way out of proportion, and then going out of your way to say you're ignoring it over and over. Good job, bro, good job - you're not only a histrionic personality, but you're also schizophrenic.
AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
636
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 19:47:00 -
[67] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote: 500k SP alts
Bro, keep your argument straight.
Before you said "500k sp alt", now you're saying "500k sp alts".
Yes it matters. Stop being dishonest.
A 500k SP alt in a Rifter is not going to kill your 50million SP player in a Thrasher. But three or four 500k SP alts in Rifters probably will. This is called balance and it's a good thing.
FW was intended to be newbie friendly. And it is. A bunch of newbies can plex a system to vulnerable and mob the iHub with cheap ships and take it. WORKING. AS. INTENDED.
SOV in FW is not a big deal. It's basically Lego SOV. Nothing is really affected, and if it bothers you that much, stage in HiSec. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
636
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 20:14:00 -
[68] - Quote
Burtakus wrote: You either know very little about "sov" in FW and its implications or are just playing a troll with that statement.
Dude, shut up with the stupid personal attacks already. It's not helping your already untenable position. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
636
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 20:20:00 -
[69] - Quote
Burtakus wrote:Xuixien wrote:Burtakus wrote: You either know very little about "sov" in FW and its implications or are just playing a troll with that statement.
Dude, shut up with the stupid personal attacks already. It's not helping your already untenable position. Dude shut up with the stupid trolling already. It's not helping you beyond sounding like a troll.
Just because you can't counter my points doesn't make me a troll.
Seriously, trying to dismiss someone as a troll is like admitting that they're right. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
636
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 20:23:00 -
[70] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:SOV in FW is a big deal to those of us who are in FW who aren't pure farmers.
Only because you choose to make it so. It's player choice. CCP does not have to change game mechanics to facilitate your choices.
It's not NullSec where you lose your SOV and you're screwed.
Lose SOV in FW and all you have to do is drop militia and you can get your stuff out. The entire problem is easily averted by staging out of a nearby HiSec system.
AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
|
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
636
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 20:25:00 -
[71] - Quote
Burtakus wrote:Xuixien wrote:Burtakus wrote:Xuixien wrote:Burtakus wrote: You either know very little about "sov" in FW and its implications or are just playing a troll with that statement.
Dude, shut up with the stupid personal attacks already. It's not helping your already untenable position. Dude shut up with the stupid trolling already. It's not helping you beyond sounding like a troll. Just because you can't counter my points doesn't make me a troll. Seriously, trying to dismiss someone as a troll is like admitting that they're right. And what exactly are your points. It is hard to determine from the extraneous trollage. I would be happy do debate them in a constructive non-inflammatory manner.
No, I am not obligated to debate my points and present them in the manner that you choose for me. If I want to add a few facetious comments in with my points, that's my choice and doesn't detract from the debate. Your inability to focus on my points and ignore some light trolling is what's detracting from the debate. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
637
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 20:28:00 -
[72] - Quote
Burtakus wrote: spoken like a true troll that has nothing of real value to add but just likes hear himself talk.
Concession accepted. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
637
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 20:31:00 -
[73] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:And how does that not point out the importance of SOV in FW space to you?
It points out that SOV in FW is of little consequences as the mechanic is easily bypassed. I wouldn't even call it "SOV", as that's very misleading. I would just call it "docking rights".
Thanatos Marathon wrote:So far the only arguments I've heard against Timer Rollbacks are based on the argument that it would drive people out of FW. Who are these people that will be driven out?
The people who's only real source of income for their PvP ships is LP - and when I was in FW, at least for the Minmatar militia, that was the majority of people who weren't in the small circle of bitter vet olde guardes. Of course, there were those who had HiSec mining alts (*coughT.R.I.A.D.cough*) but that was always a dirty secret that no one liked to talk about. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
638
|
Posted - 2013.12.11 22:23:00 -
[74] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote: There should be incentives for defenders to defend.
There is - they're just QQcatting that it's "too hard" and "boring". AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
640
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 00:25:00 -
[75] - Quote
Burtakus wrote: It's not QQcatting so stop pretending that this is just a couple of FW folks whining over nothing.
FWbears have been whining about FW for 2 years now, and it's predominantly the same few groups. So QQCatting seems apt, especially since it flows so well with your corp ticker.
Burtakus wrote:Again please provide something of use to the conversation besides calling folks lazy whiners.
I did, but then you called me a "troll" because you couldn't counter my points.
Shadow Adanza wrote: Haha. Must not have noticed "Nisuwa and Notoras stay stable" part. I'm one of the main ones ensuring it stays that way and your... assessment isn't quite right. Annie hits the nail on the head at the end of their post.
Haha. Must not have read what your other QQcorpies have written ITT. My assessment is based on a couple of QQcats QQcatting ITT that "dplexing is boring and unfair - takes hours - takes 3 of us to chase 1 plexer - etcetc". Go back and read what your own QQcorpies wrote, kk? AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
641
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 00:58:00 -
[76] - Quote
Shadow Adanza wrote:I commented without having the full picture. I apologize.
Not empty quoting.
AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
650
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 15:56:00 -
[77] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote: Your noob-ness shows. We have been "whining" since day one, that is five years ago not two. Of course to begin with it was considered, accepted and read as feedback to development.
Your lack of context comprehension shows. We're obviously talking about an issue that didn't exist before Inferno. The issues that FWbears are QQcatting about today are different from the issues FWbears were QQcatting about 4 years ago.
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Your points have been countered, weighed, shelved etc. consistently, you just have that very annoying "selective reading/comprehension" attribute that in short order gets you nothing more than shrugs and sighs whenever you open your mouth.
ProTip: Calling someone a troll is not "countering" their points. My points haven't been weighed, they've been ignored - because they're too tough to deal with. So people would rather call me a "troll" because, didn't you know, on the Internetz if someone doesn't agree with you rank and file, they're obviously a troll.
The changes to FW made it relevant. Before FW was an archaic, ancient game feature that people never really spoke about, except for the people in FW and some lore junkies. Now, FW is a thriving part of the game that has (at least some) relevance even to NullSec entities and HiSec markets. The change to FW that made it relevant was the ability to make a living at it. Most people who "farm" LP in FW also use the LP to PvP within FW. LP farmers who exist in FW only to farm LP are in fact a very small minority and not really that big of a deal - aeb killboards which have increased since Inferno, and no, "80%" of the kills are not cloaky farming frigates, they're other PvP boats.
FW is not "PvP only", aeb the plexing mechanic and the presence of missions. All comments that FW is "for PvP only" are incorrect, misguided, and based only on the proponent's feeling of what they want FW to be or what they think it should be.
Large numbers of low SP characters in disposable ships effecting change on the game? Working as intended.
If you're gonna complain about income risk/reward, complain about people in SBs farming missions.
If you're gonna complain about WZ control - then go influence it.
A lot of people complaining about something doesn't necessitate that there is actually a problem that needs to be solved. See: HiSec ganking. In fact everything that's being complained about ITT has an in-game solution if only, if only if only if only, people were willing to do it. But they're not, so "help me CCP, you're my only hope."
Veshta Yoshida wrote:Disagree. They care very much, they (null interests) were after all instrumental in convincing CCP to create FarmVille so they could have a secondary revenue stream that is not affected by evil people nicking their null-space .. they even managed to convince CCP to forego pretty much all restrictions on alliances joining just to prove the former accusation/statement.
Wow, tinfoil. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
650
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 17:42:00 -
[78] - Quote
- Nothing in EVE is risk free. Nothing. There is inherent risk every time you undock, period.
- Any PvE activity is farmable. Some PvP activities are farmable (le gatekamppz)
- While I listen to you talk about how prolific the farmers are, I would like you to consider a concept known as "availability heuristic".
- Your argument that you want WZ control to be determined by "warfare" is ambiguous at best and elitism at worse. Please define "warfare", because in FW's current state, a person farming LP is in fact being paid by one of the factions to engage in acts of war (capturing plexes) against the opposing faction.
- Dismissing a conspiracy theory (which has no proof to back it up) does not show a "vested interested". Put the tinfoil away.
AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
650
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 18:27:00 -
[79] - Quote
Rabugento wrote:Without getting into the hot topics of "Should FW be changed?" and "Are the ideas in this thread good?", I would like to know what kind of evidence you have to support what I quoted.
Look at FW corp killboards, or killboards from pilots who have been in FW for years. Post-Inferno, their number of kills and losses increases. And the majority of those kills and losses are PvP, not killing farmers. There are more PvPers in FW - primarily because it's easier to fund that PvP. People who want an "all PvP utopia" in FW don't understand that there's no such thing as a free lunch - the ISK for those ships has to come from somewhere. And it comes from an activity that is economically healthy for EVE Online.
When I was in FW most of the players I flew with farmed LP to fund ships/PLEX - and most of them did it on an alt, because doing it on their main would quickly get them labeled a "farmer", and thus blacklisted and AWOX'd by pilots in their faction. So, in part, the "proliferation of farming alts" is a direct consequence of people QQcatting and disparaging farmers. Most of the people who whined about farmers were older, "established" players who had secured income via other means - T2 invention farms, JF trading, gaming SOMER Bink, cap production, etcetc. (Apparently it's okay to engage in non-FW activities, such as JF trading in NullSec or T2 invention in HiSec in order to fund FW PvP, but it's not okay to farm FW LP to fund FW PvP or, GOD FORBID, to farm FW LP in order to fund other activities in EVE.)
I myself used to spend downtime farming LP, which I used to fund the PvP boats I would then take out in fleets. But after a while, fellow militia started shooting me down and I got tired of hearing about "udirtyfarmer! udontcareaboutthewareffort!" so I created an alt to farm my LP. (Then I got to hear the same people complain that I wasn't doing anything to help "system control" cuz all I was doing was PvPing on Xui - lawwdy lawd. ). I agree that, pre-Goon nerf, FW LP was just ridiculous. A weekend of farming, and you could cash out billions of ISK during T5. Luckily CCP stepped in and fixed it - and what we have now is, in my opinion, very reasonable.
Anyway. I spoke to a LOT of people when I was in FW. PvP mains and, instead of shitting on them, the "farming alts". Most of the alts I spoke to, while unwilling to reveal their mains, were in fact farming to fund their PvP main which was in a corp hostile to farming. Most FW corps are in fact hostile to farming. But the dirty secret is that most of the "farming alts" are in fact alts of people who are in those corps and aren't really allowed to make money. It all boils back down to the "PvPers looking down their nose at carebears" - meanwhile every PvPer's dirty secret is that they have carebear alts to make them money.
In my estimation, very few people who farm LP are in it just to get ISK for "something else". They're in it to fund PLEX for their account and PvP boats. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
650
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 18:28:00 -
[80] - Quote
Princess Nexxala wrote:This is wrong...so wrong in fact it's laughable. Assuming things like this is why your points are considered irrelevant at best. You are arguing for the sake of arguing and now inventing stuff to validate said arguments. Xuixien wrote: [stuff]
... Most people who "farm" LP in FW also use the LP to PvP within FW. LP farmers who exist in FW only to farm LP are in fact a very small minority and not really that big of a deal...
[more stuff]
Sure. Whatever you say, dear.
AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
|
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
650
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 18:37:00 -
[81] - Quote
- I hardly consider 40-50 million ISK/hr "significant rewards".
- FW is healthy as the killboards and constant flipping of systems shows.
- Farmers contest systems and then you get fights on iHubs. Working as intended.
- Rollbacks would in fact nerf farming heavily - losing all the time you invest in a plex just because 3 people jumped you and chased you out would make farming untenable. You might think this is a good thing (yeah get rid of those dirty farmers!) until your faction has low system control and there's no one to o-plex.
- I was not trying to "sound intelligent" or "slight you" - don't be so sensitive. You really would do well to read a bit about "availability heuristic". A lot of the "omg all these farmer!" comments seem to be the result of it.
- "Agreeing to disagree" is an intellectual cop out.
- A question for you - Why should plexers not have such an influence on WZ control? I keep hearing that word "should" a lot, but the reasons to back it up... are flimsy at best.
- Again, FW is not an ISK printer - it's an ISK sink. And an economically healthy one at that.
- FW is not "dominated by farming activities".
- Farming in FW declined after the Great Goon Nerf.
- "If you don't agree with a conspiracy theory then you are just naive!" is a baseless garbage argument.
AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
654
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 20:01:00 -
[82] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Looking at the killboards for ships that are designed not to get killed doesn't tell you a lot other than they are good at not getting killd.
We're not looking at KBs for ships that are designed not to get killed. We're looking at KBs to see if FW is a healthy PvP environment.
Guess what: It is.
And more so after Inferno than before. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
654
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 20:16:00 -
[83] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Xuixien wrote:Thanatos Marathon wrote:Looking at the killboards for ships that are designed not to get killed doesn't tell you a lot other than they are good at not getting killd. We're not looking at KBs for ships that are designed not to get killed. We're looking at KBs to see if FW is a healthy PvP environment. Guess what: It is. And more so after Inferno than before. Don't think you will find many FW people in this thread that will say there isn't plenty of PvP to be had. That isn't our gripe.
Wrong. Statements ITT:
- 4 out of 5 people I tried to fight were farmers.
- FW is dominated by farmers.
- FW is farmville.
- FW is an "ISK printing machine".
- FW is dying.
- FW is unhealthy due to all the farming.
- etcetc.
- You should really pay more attention to what the people in your camp are saying. Then you won't look like a fool when you say "no one said x".
This thread:
- A Condor warped out after getting tackled and/or cloaked when someone came up on scan.
- Someone got MAD!
- Out of a spirit of spitefulness, someone requests that CCP make changes to hurt the farmers.
- They can't hurt the farmers themselves, and want to do it via proxy of CCP.
- Weakly base their arguments on the premise that "farmers have too much power and make too much ISK".
- Are unable to show that farmers have too much power or are even an issue beyond frustrating some PvPers.
AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
654
|
Posted - 2013.12.12 20:30:00 -
[84] - Quote
Thanatos Marathon wrote:All I would like to see is a slight reduction in the impact farmers have on Warzone control.
Then give some good reasons that aren't based on histrionics.
AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
660
|
Posted - 2013.12.13 05:55:00 -
[85] - Quote
Burtakus wrote:PvP is not lacking in FW. No one ever said that, you have assumed that.
Nope I based it comments people posted. Like I said go back and read.
The main issue we are talking about is: The large impact that "farmers" are having on FW WZ control
Burtakus wrote:Why is this an issue: Because our ability to enjoy the game we like (or used to like in some cases) and the aspect that we as a group like most about it (FW) is directly affected by those who have no interest in that aspect other than abusing the risk/reward ratio to isk gain. We all want a healthy FW aspect of Eve and blowing up ships is just one part of it.
So why is FW systems flipping control ruining your fun? You realize that's what FW is, right? And whatever side has the numbers will have the advantage, right? I mean... you're crying for CCP to effect change when it's an issue entirely in the hands of the players.
Burtakus wrote:Back to the Root cause of our issue: The risk/reward for "farming" and the impact is has on WZ control is creating an imbalance between factions that if persists will be to the detriment of the FW aspect of Eve.
Yeah. Well the factions were never meant to be balanced. That's up to the players. And what will you whine to CCP about when they "fix" the issue - and it's still imbalanced and one side has an advantage over the ship? Acceleration gates on iHubs so caps can't be dropped? I mean really. RIght now GalMil is QQcatting cuz TEST joined the Caldari.
FW is dynamic. Caldari have the advantage today, tomorrow it will be the Gallente. Amarr had the advantage when FWEDDIT and other groups joined - now Minmatar call the shots. That's FW.
You are creating and focusing on things that are the results of the root cause instead of addressing the root cause of our concern.
Burtakus wrote:All we are asking for a relatively small adjustment in FW plex mechanics that begin to address the imbalanced risk vs. reward of farming FW solely for the purpose of making isk.
You're asking CCP "pls nerf something player driven cuz other players are not playing fair."
Burtakus wrote:The only folks impacted by this are the pure isk farmers and even then it would at most be a minor inconvenience.
Everyone who used plexes would be affected. Even those who run it for WZ control.
AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
660
|
Posted - 2013.12.13 05:59:00 -
[86] - Quote
Burtakus wrote:I could be wrong, but it appears the only ones against this minor suggestion of altering the timer roll back are those defending the incredibly low risk/reward of farming FW plexes provides and are either not in FW or are themselves taking advantage of this abuse.
It doesn't matter what their "hidden agenda" is. You have no valid argument and it's been pointed out over and over.
AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
660
|
Posted - 2013.12.13 06:02:00 -
[87] - Quote
Dread Delgarth wrote:Yeah I noticed that too. Funny how current pilots in QQcorp want timer roll backs now that TEST has given Caldari the advantage.
FTFY.
AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
660
|
Posted - 2013.12.13 06:04:00 -
[88] - Quote
Iudicium Vastus wrote:Doesn't anyone think if the FW isk was made harder to get with FW alts, then the mains that these stabbed alts feed might PvP less as a side-effect. Or least pvp much more cheaply, and probably herd towards the blob for more safety.
Who knows if that deadspace fit Vindi you and your pals were so hyped up after taking down was paid by a FW alt? (Stabbed or not)
No, obviously not. None of the farmers are linked to PvP pilots in the militia. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
660
|
Posted - 2013.12.13 06:05:00 -
[89] - Quote
Annie Anomie wrote:Iudicium Vastus wrote:Doesn't anyone think if the FW isk was made harder to get with FW alts, then the mains that these stabbed alts feed might PvP less as a side-effect. Or least pvp much more cheaply, and probably herd towards the blob for more safety.
Who knows if that deadspace fit Vindi you and your pals were so hyped up after taking down was paid by a FW alt? (Stabbed or not) No. Easier farming just = inflation as far as I can see :/ People are still as risk averse as ever even with the farming.
No, farming = deflation because LP is an ISK sink. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
661
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Posted - 2013.12.13 07:44:00 -
[90] - Quote
Ah, sudden inspiration. I think this is hauntingly relevant to this thread
Quote:It is folly for a man to pray to the gods for that which he has the power to obtain by himself. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
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Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
669
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Posted - 2013.12.13 20:55:00 -
[91] - Quote
Burtakus wrote:
Perhaps so, but you have no valid objection either.
I don't think you know how this works.
I don't exactly need to construct a masterpiece thesis here.
I don't even have to type very much
This is how it works:
You (you guys, you singular) are presenting the case for a change to the current game mechanics.
See, it is not my job to take that proposed change, and come up with a masterful essay as to why it would be a bad change - it is your job to present an argument as to why it would be a good job.
My job is simply to show that either a) your reasons are wrong b) your logic is flawed or c) the suggested change does not improve the game.
The onus is on you. Let's take a look at this point by point for a moment (I'm actually heading off soon so gotta make this somewhat quick - also at this point I can't be that arsed with you)
- The Point of FW Heath - "FW is dying." - FW is in fact healthier than ever. Based on the premise that FW exists as an immersive mix of PvP and PvE, there is in fact more of each occurring in the WarZone post-Inferno. Militia numbers have swelled and there is more player interaction occurring in the WarZone, both between opposing militia and between the militia and neutral parties. A simple look at any FW corp KB or veteran FW pilots' KB will show large numbers of kills and losses indicative of a healthy PvP environment.
- The Point of Balance - "It's not fair that whoever has the most pilots is winning!" - Mechanically the militias are entirely balanced. None of the rats use EWar in plexes (missions may be different) and every faction has to jump through the same hoops and hurdles to contest and take systems. As far as numbers - well this is entirely in the hands of the players. If you feel outnumbered, then my suggestion to you is to be pro-active and recruit members into your corporation/militia to make up the difference. Keep in mind, however, that numbers change - tomorrow, GalMil may have the numerical advantage. Today, it's Caldari, and that is okay. If one side was permanently locked into the losing position due to farmers, you may have a case - but FW continues to be a dynamic, changing environment.
- "FW is supposed to be about PewPew! - No statement from CCP supports this premise. FW is an immersive environment consisting of PvP and non-combat objectives (missions, plexes). This is because FW seems modeled after real life conflicts, which consist not only of combat operations, but non-combat operations. All support the war effort. Plexes are meant to promote PvP - however, CCP has not stated if they mean actual in-plex combat, funding PvP, or both. Best guess based on the evidence (LP, selective acceleration gates, system influence) is both.
- "I Don't Like Chasing StabbyCloakies - Then don't. It is in fact entirely your choice to chase cloaky stabbies around.
- "Plex runners have too much control!" - This has not been shown. You in fact have the same level of control that they do - just run plexes. Also, plexes are currently the only way to contest systems (aside from DUST). It would seem you have less of a problem with plex runners and more of a problem with the current mechanic of system contestation.
- "I just want to limit the influence plexers have on the WZ! - This is actually wanting to limit the amount of influencing plexing has on the WarZone. Perhaps what you really would like is for DUST to be more relevant - perhaps 50% of system influence should be determined via DUST battles?
In short, no one in your camp has presented a strong case. The only point you have approaching validity is perhaps the risk/reward ratio. But you have stated that you care less about risk/reward than you do the influence plexing has on the WZ. So far, FW as it is works, and it works well. That you are not entirely satisfied with it... is relevant only to your personal gameplay.
Personally, I feel the solution is to make DPlexing more lucrative. But that's a change I don't feel like arguing over this very second, and will mull it over a bit and return with a case if I decide it's a viable route. Another option is to make plexing account for only a certain % of system influence - say, 50%. Once the system reaches 50% from plexing, o-plexing turns off and the rest of the influence has to come from DUST. This would make DUST actually relevant, and would incentivize capsuleer organizations to employ the efforts of DUST players.
More to come later. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
Xuixien
Attitude Adjustment Incorporated
669
|
Posted - 2013.12.13 21:07:00 -
[92] - Quote
Burtakus wrote:I have to justify and deliver nothing to you. In the realm of people who need convincing of this you are completely insignificant. Myself and other have wasted sufficient time entertaining you.
You misunderstand, again.
I'm not saying it's me personally that you have to convince.
But the fact is, you are proposing a change to the game that affects perhaps many thousands of players.
You had damned well have a solid case.
I don't have to come up with some amazing paragraph essay delving into "what ifs" to explain why your proposed changes are bad.
All I have to do is show that your reasoning is flawed, your position biased, that the "problem" you talk about either doesn't exist, or is being greatly exaggerated, and that the premises you are operating under are false.
You're making this personal. That's fine, and I guess I understand if you're getting frustrated. But this isn't a personal issue - it's not me personally that you have to convince. To elaborate - if the possibility of CCP actively watching the progress of this thread, and considering the points and counterpoints being raised within, has not crossed your mind... then you, sir, are perhaps a little bit foolish. You would do better to actively engage the points and counterpoints I raise, rather than trying to find excuses to avoid them - because, believe you me, the collective acumen of CCP is far, far beyond what I've brought to bear in this thread, and if you can't contest with me, then you have no chance of swaying CCP. AUT5M - Active WH Corporation seeking new recruits. Frequent fleets, perfect boosts, material buyback, and more. Battleship/Logi/T3 pilots needed. Inquire within. Full API required. |
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