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Tappits North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion 26	Posted - 2013.12.14 10:56:00 - [1] - Quote Take Note: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=61une0e-hq4&list=UUKab3hYnOoTZZbEUQBMx-ww#t=369 Pay to win = Loose.
Ramona McCandless Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire 1424	Posted - 2013.12.14 10:59:00 - [2] - Quote Wow That's that multimillion dollar industry quashed Who knew You Tube was so powerful Non omnis moriar
WASPY69 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 65	Posted - 2013.12.14 11:08:00 - [3] - Quote Please give us all an example where you can spend real life money to gain an unfair advantage in EVE that you CAN'T achieve through spending isk on that very same item(s). I have a monocle, your argument is invalid.
Thebriwan LUX Uls Xystus 148	Posted - 2013.12.14 11:11:00 - [4] - Quote The problem that this guy don't see is the following: Once, in the old days, there were gamers and other people. Gamers played on computers, consoles and on tabletops. AND THE GAMES WERE COMPLEX AND HARD! In fact so complex and hard that "the other people" could not play them. Nowadays "the other people" have smart phones and tablets and they have money, too. And the gaming industry makes games for them. Games that are incredibly easy, where you can progress faster with money, where you can buy success. The problem is: the gamers are a minority. And the gaming industry is a BUSINESS. How does Marx would describe the situation? Accumulation of capital? Maximization of profit? "The other people" win, the gamers loose.
Sulliva Slake EVE University Ivy League 21	Posted - 2013.12.14 11:13:00 - [5] - Quote WASPY69 wrote: Please give us all an example where you can spend real life money to gain an unfair advantage in EVE that you CAN'T achieve through spending isk on that very same item(s). I have a monocle, your argument is invalid. OK that is a pretty easy question to answer buy plex + buy a char with said plex = P2W But eve is a game that I really come to escape the major P2W sources like WoT, Planetside 2 (even they arn't as bad as others) but really if somone goes and buys a 100 mil SP account in eve they will still suck becuse eve is just not the regular FPS game like otehrs where if your good at CoD your good at all of em
Ramona McCandless Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire 1425	Posted - 2013.12.14 11:16:00 - [6] - Quote Sulliva Slake wrote: buy plex + buy a char with said plex = P2W but really if somone goes and buys a 100 mil SP account in eve they will still suck These are mutually exclusive statements Non omnis moriar
Tappits North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion 26	Posted - 2013.12.14 11:17:00 - [7] - Quote EvE-Online is not yet a full FTP game but Dust is. And itGÇÖs still a quite interesting video nun the less.
Ramona McCandless Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire 1426	Posted - 2013.12.14 11:32:00 - [8] - Quote Tappits wrote: nun the less. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-C5cX7vZ12tA/Tcd40BxuyfI/AAAAAAAAA7I/AQ7AzhXGgBg/s1600/xombi_5.jpg Non omnis moriar
Remiel Pollard Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking 2124	Posted - 2013.12.14 11:41:00 - [9] - Quote Sulliva Slake wrote: buy plex + buy a char with said plex = P2W Wrong. First of all, a high-skilled toon in the hands of someone unfamiliar with EVE is not going to win squat. Second, you can't win EVE. You don't scare me. I've been to Jita.
Dalmont Delantee Rim Worlds Republic SpaceMonkey's Alliance 219	Posted - 2013.12.14 11:46:00 - [10] - Quote Remiel Pollard wrote: Sulliva Slake wrote: buy plex + buy a char with said plex = P2W Wrong. First of all, a high-skilled toon in the hands of someone unfamiliar with EVE is not going to win squat. Second, you can't win EVE. I second this, I own a high-skilled toon and I still suck. Have sucked since 2004

Remiel Pollard Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking 2124	Posted - 2013.12.14 11:50:00 - [11] - Quote Dalmont Delantee wrote: Remiel Pollard wrote: Sulliva Slake wrote: buy plex + buy a char with said plex = P2W Wrong. First of all, a high-skilled toon in the hands of someone unfamiliar with EVE is not going to win squat. Second, you can't win EVE. I second this, I own a high-skilled toon and I still suck. Have sucked since 2004 Well that's just because you're in SpaceMonkeys You don't scare me. I've been to Jita.
Dalmont Delantee Rim Worlds Republic SpaceMonkey's Alliance 219	Posted - 2013.12.14 11:52:00 - [12] - Quote Remiel Pollard wrote: Dalmont Delantee wrote: Remiel Pollard wrote: Sulliva Slake wrote: buy plex + buy a char with said plex = P2W Wrong. First of all, a high-skilled toon in the hands of someone unfamiliar with EVE is not going to win squat. Second, you can't win EVE. I second this, I own a high-skilled toon and I still suck. Have sucked since 2004 Well that's just because you're in SpaceMonkeys I sucked before space monkey's :P
bloodknight2 Talledega Knights PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS 304	Posted - 2013.12.14 12:15:00 - [13] - Quote I have nothing against micro transaction if they do not hurt the game. GT6's micro transaction killed the game. Same for DLC. You know there is a problem when a DLC is available the day the game is launch. I wouldn't mind if Eve had micro transaction like new skins for ships or a plex to have back the old damnation model (because YES, the new one sucks).
WASPY69 Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 67	Posted - 2013.12.14 12:17:00 - [14] - Quote Sulliva Slake wrote: WASPY69 wrote: Please give us all an example where you can spend real life money to gain an unfair advantage in EVE that you CAN'T achieve through spending isk on that very same item(s). I have a monocle, your argument is invalid. OK that is a pretty easy question to answer buy plex + buy a char with said plex = P2W But eve is a game that I really come to escape the major P2W sources like WoT, Planetside 2 (even they arn't as bad as others) but really if somone goes and buys a 100 mil SP account in eve they will still suck becuse eve is just not the regular FPS game like otehrs where if your good at CoD your good at all of em You just confirmed my post. You can either buy plex, OR you can grind in game to get the same isk. Pay to win would suggest the only way to win would be by paying. Which isn't the case in EVE as you can work your way to billionaire using nothing but in game mechanics. And every single item within EVE is purchasable with in game money.
Crumplecorn Eve Cluster Explorations 574	Posted - 2013.12.14 12:41:00 - [15] - Quote bloodknight2 wrote: I have nothing against micro transaction if they do not hurt the game. GT6's micro transaction killed the game. Same for DLC. You know there is a problem when a DLC is available the day the game is launch. I wouldn't mind if Eve had micro transaction like new skins for ships or a plex to have back the old damnation model (because YES, the new one sucks). You missed the point the video was making; If you support it when it doesn't compromise the game, then they'll start compromising the game to try to get more out of you. Sometimes the slippery slope is actually a thing. [img]http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php?r=rnd[/img] Desusigs can be seen on the terribad new forums using bbcode enabling script (scroll down to my post for sig rotation)
Bel Tika Deep Fried Industries 38	Posted - 2013.12.14 12:53:00 - [16] - Quote I agree with the guy on micro-transactions, i dont agree with the OP with it in concern to eve
Xavier Higdon Wolfbane Hauler Inc 227	Posted - 2013.12.14 13:39:00 - [17] - Quote EvE isn't Pay to Win. World of Tanks, Planes and Automobiles is Pay to Win. The developer of that game has clearly stated that in order to compete you must use microtransactions. After reviewing what Gold is used for in that game, I decided to never play it. You need Gold to progress at a reasonable rate, to customize tanks(as you lose anything you replace unless you use Gold) and you even need Gold to start a clan before you can pay to compete. Wolfbane Hauler Inc Looking For Combat And Industrial Pilots
ElQuirko The Scope Gallente Federation 2765	Posted - 2013.12.14 16:33:00 - [18] - Quote Thebriwan wrote: How does Marx would describe the situation? Has Anyone Really Been Far Even as Decided to Nothing to Lose But Their Chains Workers Of The World Unite? Dodixie > Hek
Ramona McCandless Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire 1437	Posted - 2013.12.14 16:46:00 - [19] - Quote Thebriwan wrote: How does Marx would describe the situation? "Im off to play Sim City on the SNES with Dickens. Leave me alone" Non omnis moriar
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 9031	Posted - 2013.12.14 16:50:00 - [20] - Quote Gotta agree with the angry youtuber. Micro transactions are a cancer that is spreading and killing off otherwise good games. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship

Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 17733	Posted - 2013.12.14 17:23:00 - [21] - Quote Sulliva Slake wrote: WASPY69 wrote: Please give us all an example where you can spend real life money to gain an unfair advantage in EVE that you CAN'T achieve through spending isk on that very same item(s). I have a monocle, your argument is invalid. OK that is a pretty easy question to answer buy plex + buy a char with said plex = P2W GÇªexcept that that's not an unfair advantage to begin with, nor is it something that you can't achieve through spending ISK in the same way. After all, you're not allowed to use PLEX to buy a character GÇö you have to use ISK. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0.
I Love Boobies All Hail Boobies 809	Posted - 2013.12.14 17:51:00 - [22] - Quote Sooooooo... the opinion of some **** on YouTube really matters? Sure, I think microtransactions are rather dumb if they give a clear advantage at something, but just because they are in the game doesn't mean they're totally bad. How else are companies going to pay for game development, especially if the game is free to play? Don't like games with microtransactions? Then don't play them.
Tappits North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion 26	Posted - 2013.12.14 18:27:00 - [23] - Quote I Love Boobies wrote: How else are companies going to pay for game development, especially if the game is free to play? Don't like games with microtransactions? Then don't play them. The problem was started with free to play games but its not stayed there. Micro transactions are now in normal FULL PRICED GAMES + DLC on Day 1 of a game been released. Things like the new GT game comes with them. Like wtf what was wrong with a cheat code for more cash in the single player game, now you have to pay for the game again for that ****. ItGÇÖs like buying Golden eye back in the day and finding out you had to pay again for all the big head mode and golden gun.
Alduin666 Shikkoken Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore 207	Posted - 2013.12.14 21:08:00 - [24] - Quote Sulliva Slake wrote: WASPY69 wrote: Please give us all an example where you can spend real life money to gain an unfair advantage in EVE that you CAN'T achieve through spending isk on that very same item(s). I have a monocle, your argument is invalid. OK that is a pretty easy question to answer buy plex + buy a char with said plex = P2W But eve is a game that I really come to escape the major P2W sources like WoT, Planetside 2 (even they arn't as bad as others) but really if somone goes and buys a 100 mil SP account in eve they will still suck becuse eve is just not the regular FPS game like otehrs where if your good at CoD your good at all of em He said an example where you can spend real money to gain an unfair advantage in eve THAT YOU CANT ACHIEVE THROUGH SPENDING ISK on the very same item. Characters are sold for ISK, not plex. You must sell the plex (or 99% of the time, plexes) to get the ISK in order to buy a char. That makes it entirely valid for someone to rat/mine/plex/mission/manufacture/station trade/incursion their way up to having enough ISK to buy a character. Honor is a fools prize. Glory is of no use to the dead. Be a man! Post with your main! ~Vas'Avi Community Manager
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 14847	Posted - 2013.12.14 21:18:00 - [25] - Quote Sulliva Slake wrote: buy plex + buy a char with said plex = P2W Nope. You can't pay for a character with PLEX, you have to sell the PLEX first A 100M SP character is going to cost the ISK equivalent of multiple PLEX If you have no idea what you're doing, despite having purchased a 100M SP character, you're going to have a bad, not to mention expensive day Even if your erroneous statement was 50% true it's more like pay to lose. Malcanis' Law - Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of new players, that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. The corollary is that when new players propose a change, they invariably lack the experience and insight to see how the change would again be exploited by older players far more efficiently than themselves.
Qweasdy Absolute Massive Destruction Cult of War 27	Posted - 2013.12.14 21:36:00 - [26] - Quote Xavier Higdon wrote: EvE isn't Pay to Win. World of Tanks, Planes and Automobiles is Pay to Win. The developer of that game has clearly stated that in order to compete you must use microtransactions. After reviewing what Gold is used for in that game, I decided to never play it. You need Gold to progress at a reasonable rate, to customize tanks(as you lose anything you replace unless you use Gold) and you even need Gold to start a clan before you can pay to compete. WoT isn't nearly as bad as you seem to think it is, gold ammo is BS, but you can buy it with in game credits too. Also what should be remembered is that gold ammo isn't actually all that useful, all it does is give you better armour penetration, and in the vast majority of situations when you shoot at someone it's either going to hit something you could easily penetrate anyway or it's going to bounce off regardless. Probably about 90% of gold ammo actually fired in that game is wasted. Where gold ammo is actually useful is to be used as an equalizer when facing tanks higher tier than yourself in unfavourable matchmaking to get through the armour that's tougher than what your gun is meant to be shooting at. I still hate it... I wish it wasn't in the game but that's not (imo) the most pay to win thing about the game, it's the converting XP from 'elite' and premium tanks to allow you to totally skip the stock grind that everyone else has to deal with that's totally BS and will directly lead to you having better results and winning more often. Anyways back to eve, IMO eve isn't pay to win because it's an inherently imbalanced environment to the point that conventional balance gets thrown out the window. You can't say for example a navy omen is better than a tristan when in fact a tristan in the right circumstances could kill a navy omen with ease. "paying to win" doesn't actually make you win, it's as simple as that.
Captain Tardbar Sons of Sam 788	Posted - 2013.12.14 22:04:00 - [27] - Quote WASPY69 wrote: Please give us all an example where you can spend real life money to gain an unfair advantage in EVE that you CAN'T achieve through spending isk on that very same item(s). I have a monocle, your argument is invalid. None, if you have the isk. A great deal if you don't. As most players don't have infinite supplies of isk laying around, someone who spends thousands of dollars on selling plexes can easily earn more isk than the average player. So yeah, someone who uses real money earns an advantage over the average player. I mean if you run an alliance and receive taxes from thousands of people sure you might have equal incomes, but you have to put in more effort running that alliance that someone who just spends $10,000 on plex. Though, most people don't spend that much money on the game. And if they did, I say I'm glad I'm not as dumb as them. And none of this "They are just moving isk around" No. Plex buyers create something of value with their real world money. 30 days of game time. No matter how much isk you have you cannot create 30 days of game time. You can pay other people for it, but you can't create it out of thin air like they do. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. Captain Tardbar: The official grumpy cat of General Discussion.
Alexis Machine 24	Posted - 2013.12.14 22:05:00 - [28] - Quote Crumplecorn wrote: You missed the point the video was making; If you support it when it doesn't compromise the game, then they'll start compromising the game to try to get more out of you. Sometimes the slippery slope is actually a thing. Every single time. It becomes less about making new and awesome content and more about "let's take this, change it to pink and raise the price 5 bucks" content.
Eko'mo Eko Research Institute 32	Posted - 2013.12.14 22:21:00 - [29] - Quote Has anybody noticed that when you claim your holiday items, specifically the T1 modules or ships, in the description it says 'item bought from Eve website'. Is this a placeholder for something to come or just poor wording? http://ekolikecrayons.wordpress.com/about/
Qweasdy Absolute Massive Destruction Cult of War 27	Posted - 2013.12.14 22:24:00 - [30] - Quote Eko'mo wrote: Has anybody noticed that when you claim your holiday items, specifically the T1 modules or ships, in the description it says 'item bought from Eve website'. Is this a placeholder for something to come or just poor wording? Pretty sure PLEX has that so there is actually already a use for it.

Nicolai Serkanner Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 33	Posted - 2013.12.14 23:40:00 - [31] - Quote A game producer makes a game ... to make money. Unbelievable!
Alexis Machine 24	Posted - 2013.12.15 00:08:00 - [32] - Quote Nicolai Serkanner wrote: A game producer makes a game ... to make money. Unbelievable! It's perfectly fine to make money off of your hard work; but despite popular opinion, greed is not good. Personally, micro-transaction games make me feel like the company is trying to nickel & dime me to death. It's like getting your electric bill and seeing 50 dollars worth of "franchise fees" and "licensing fees" and "city tax" and "county tax" and "technology fee" and "nuclear power plant construction fee".... doesn't that kinda **** you off? That's how it makes me feel.
Mr Epeen It's All About Me 3423	Posted - 2013.12.15 00:40:00 - [33] - Quote Paying cash for a jaunty new cap is not pay to win. Think about that next time you people insist on equating the two. There is nothing wrong in the least with having micro transactions for non gameplay items. In fact, you should encourage it as it supplies much needed cash for development. Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
Bel Amar Rules of Acquisition Acquisition Of Empire 49	Posted - 2013.12.15 01:05:00 - [34] - Quote Sulliva Slake wrote: buy plex + buy a char with said plex = P2W In the strictest sense, this is true. But it's not true in the traditional sense of the phrase Pay to Win. A pay to win game lets you buy/create/expedite something with real cash, that is then just magiced in to the game. It scales linearly without regard. EVE doesn't work like that. When you convert plex to isk and buy something with the isk, whether it's an item or a character, someone, somewhere had to put time and effort in to making the thing you're buying. Which means that you're simply re-adjusting the assets and items in the game world. Yes, you personally might be better off than you were, but someone else is now worse off. And unlike in traitional p2w games, the game itself isn't any different on a large scale. The names of the owners have changed, and nothing more. Nothing was created out of nothing.
Trixie Rocks Captains Club 8	Posted - 2013.12.15 02:03:00 - [35] - Quote Remiel Pollard wrote: Sulliva Slake wrote: buy plex + buy a char with said plex = P2W Wrong. First of all, a high-skilled toon in the hands of someone unfamiliar with EVE is not going to win squat. Second, you can't win EVE. Really? How can you even support that statement? It takes about 6 years to skill a 100SP character or longer, and it would take maybe a month of Plex spending PVP action to learn how to use it... this game is on the very top of P2W games. The only reason that it really doesn't matter for PVP is because it's mostly gang war anyways and there is no true Player Vs Player contest to be had in this game ATM. So a Bling ship means nothing for PVP because the buyer of the bling ship has no where to use it in a fair contest. P2W is only relative to PVE in this game, but to even argue the points is just silly!
Captain Tardbar Sons of Sam 788	Posted - 2013.12.15 03:12:00 - [36] - Quote Bel Amar wrote: Sulliva Slake wrote: buy plex + buy a char with said plex = P2W In the strictest sense, this is true. But it's not true in the traditional sense of the phrase Pay to Win. A pay to win game lets you buy/create/expedite something with real cash, that is then just magiced in to the game. It scales linearly without regard. EVE doesn't work like that. When you convert plex to isk and buy something with the isk, whether it's an item or a character, someone, somewhere had to put time and effort in to making the thing you're buying. Which means that you're simply re-adjusting the assets and items in the game world. Yes, you personally might be better off than you were, but someone else is now worse off. And unlike in traitional p2w games, the game itself isn't any different on a large scale. The names of the owners have changed, and nothing more. Nothing was created out of nothing. So basically people with lots of money pay other people minimum wage to do all the hard work while they sit back and sip champagne on their yachts. Kind of like real life. Well just like in real life, its not an equivalent exchange. The people who hold the money hold the power. They have a limited resource and they make other people work for that resource while often doing little of value to earn their wealth in the first place (trust funds, inheritance, stock market, usury). No matter how much isk you make in game, you cannot create a PLEX without real money so you are dependent on people to use their real cash to do so. Therefore people who spend the real money have the advantage over people who don't resulting in people working less than minimum wage to earn their monthly PLEX. I'm not saying the system doesn't work just like in real life. Hell I enjoy profits from the stock market without doing little work of intrinsic value. I am just saying its silly to say that people who spend cash on the game have no advantage over people that don't. It means they spend less time earning isk and more time spending it. They can easily replace their losses while other people have to go back and mine, rat, and mission for a few hours to earn their money. Sure their are exceptions to this, but the majority of the players spend a great deal of time earning isk compared to the time actually spending the isk. Therefore it is pay to win, but if you are playing for free then you shouldn't get upset. They pay the bills and development costs. So the system works and should be left as is. However, don't say its not pay to win. Its only fair. They are paying for your game time. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. Captain Tardbar: The official grumpy cat of General Discussion.
Captain Tardbar Sons of Sam 788	Posted - 2013.12.15 03:23:00 - [37] - Quote To straighten things out without reading my wall of text I want to point out these facts: 1. It takes real money to make a PLEX. 2. PLEX are highly valued items in the game. 3. No matter how much isk you have, you cannot create a PLEX yourself without using real money. 4. You have to pay someone who created the PLEX meaning the people who spend money have a monopoly on the PLEX. (Sure their are market traders who buy and sell plex, but that PLEX had to come from someone who created it using real money). 5. Having a monopoly of this highly valued item means they have the power and the people paying them in isk are at a disadvantage. QED Sure you have some leeway in bargaining with the people who spend money because they compete among themselves, but collectively you are restricted from buying a PLEX from a person who spends real money. However anyone can create isk so that market is less valued. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. Captain Tardbar: The official grumpy cat of General Discussion.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 17740	Posted - 2013.12.15 04:00:00 - [38] - Quote Trixie Rocks wrote: How can you even support that statement? It takes about 6 years to skill a 100SP character or longer, and it would take maybe a month of Plex spending PVP action to learn how to use it... this game is on the very top of P2W games. If by 6 years or longer you mean less than 5 years, yes. And the statement is pretty easy to support seeing as how the things you buy for your money already have to exist in-game before you can buy them, otherwise it doesn't matter how much you try to pay. This means that the stuff you're paying for exists without paying for them, which defeats the entire notion of P2W: paying or not paying doesn't affect your GÇ£winGÇ¥ in the slightest. So this game is so far down the list of P2W games that it's not even on the list GÇö it doesn't even qualify for the GÇ£pay toGÇ¥ part, much less the GÇ£winGÇ¥ part. Quote: The only reason that it really doesn't matter for PVP is because it's mostly gang war anyways and there is no true Player Vs Player contest to be had in this game ATM. GÇªaside from everything in the game, that is, including said gang wars. The reason it doesn't matter is because no matter how much you pay, you're not getting any kind of advantage that other players don't already have. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0.
Captain Tardbar Sons of Sam 788	Posted - 2013.12.15 04:10:00 - [39] - Quote Tippia wrote: If by 6 years or longer you mean less than 5 years, yes. And the statement is pretty easy to support seeing as how the things you buy for your money already have to exist in-game before you can buy them, otherwise it doesn't matter how much you try to pay. This means that the stuff you're paying for exists without paying for them, which defeats the entire notion of P2W: paying or not paying doesn't affect your GÇ£winGÇ¥ in the slightest. Anyone who plays EVE can make ships, ammo, rigs, and modules in EVE. Only people who pay real money can create PLEX. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. Captain Tardbar: The official grumpy cat of General Discussion.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 17740	Posted - 2013.12.15 04:27:00 - [40] - Quote Captain Tardbar wrote: Anyone who plays EVE can make ships, ammo, rigs, and modules in EVE. Only people who pay real money can create PLEX. PLEX serve no in-game function GÇö only an out-of-game one that is inherently tied to payment: the continuation of a subscription. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0.

Captain Tardbar Sons of Sam 788	Posted - 2013.12.15 04:38:00 - [41] - Quote Tippia wrote: Captain Tardbar wrote: Anyone who plays EVE can make ships, ammo, rigs, and modules in EVE. Only people who pay real money can create PLEX. PLEX serve no in-game function GÇö only an out-of-game one that is inherently tied to payment: the continuation of a subscription. If PLEX serves no in game function, then why is it so expensive? Why do people all get full of glee when they see a shuttle destroyed with 50 plex in it? Obviously it has some function to the EVE economy.. Or are people paying 600 million for a non-functioning item? The simple act of playing the game is indeed a very important part of the game itself. If you cannot play, then all the in-game functions are useless. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. Captain Tardbar: The official grumpy cat of General Discussion.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 17740	Posted - 2013.12.15 04:42:00 - [42] - Quote Captain Tardbar wrote: If PLEX serves no in game function, then why is it so expensive? Because its out-of-game function: it represents 1 month of game-time. Quote: Why do people all get full of glee when they see a shuttle destroyed with 50 plex in it? Because stupidity is always fun. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0.
Captain Tardbar Sons of Sam 788	Posted - 2013.12.15 04:49:00 - [43] - Quote Tippia wrote: Captain Tardbar wrote: If PLEX serves no in game function, then why is it so expensive? Because its out-of-game function: it represents 1 month of game-time. Quote: Why do people all get full of glee when they see a shuttle destroyed with 50 plex in it? Because stupidity is always fun. So let's say for a moment that I agree that it is an out of game function... That still means its a valuable item in EVE. Because there is no other item in EVE that does that out of game function. I know of no item you can manufacture that gives you free game time. You have to trade items or isk to someone who has used real money to create that item. You cannot say with a straight face without being a troll that in game 30 day pilot license PLEX's are not valuable in game. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. Captain Tardbar: The official grumpy cat of General Discussion.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 17740	Posted - 2013.12.15 04:53:00 - [44] - Quote Captain Tardbar wrote: So let's say for a moment that I agree that it is an out of game function... That still means its a valuable item in EVE. So? Quote: You cannot say with a straight face without being a troll that in game 30 day pilot license PLEX's are not valuable in game. GÇªand as luck would have it, no-one has made such a claim. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0.
Captain Tardbar Sons of Sam 788	Posted - 2013.12.15 05:06:00 - [45] - Quote Tippia wrote: Captain Tardbar wrote: So let's say for a moment that I agree that it is an out of game function... That still means its a valuable item in EVE. So? Quote: You cannot say with a straight face without being a troll that in game 30 day pilot license PLEX's are not valuable in game. GÇªand as luck would have it, no-one has made such a claim. Then why is it important that PLEX has no in game function then? Its still valuable. You implied that it wasn't by dismissing the importance of its creation by money. If you are not saying that it is not valuable (double negative) then you must agree with me and that people use real money to create an item of value in the EVE universe. And that these people who use real money have monopoly of its creation and therefore have an advantage over people who trade them isk for the plex because all players can create isk. Only players who pay real money can create PLEX. If you agree that PLEX is valuable you must also agree that only people who play real money can create the PLEX. There is no denying this fact. So you must agree with me or deny actual facts. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. Captain Tardbar: The official grumpy cat of General Discussion.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 17740	Posted - 2013.12.15 05:18:00 - [46] - Quote Captain Tardbar wrote: Then why is it important that PLEX has no in game function then? Because it makes it distinctly different and completely unrelated to ships, ammo, rigs, and modules, and as such, having a GÇ£monopolyGÇ¥ on it is meaningless. Quote: You implied that it wasn't by dismissing the importance of its creation by money. No and no, in roughly that order. You're imagining things. Quote: If you agree that PLEX is valuable you must also agree that only people who play real money can create the PLEX. Non sequitur, so no, I don't particularly have to. More to the point, it doesn't matter because as you point out, the supposed advantage is available whether you pay or not. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0.
Captain Tardbar Sons of Sam 788	Posted - 2013.12.15 05:32:00 - [47] - Quote Tippia wrote: Non sequitur, so no, I don't particularly have to. More to the point, it doesn't matter because as you point out, the supposed advantage is available whether you pay or not. So you are not going to agree with me at all? Does that mean you do not believe that PLEX is valuable in the EVE game and that only people who pay real money can create PLEX? I mean you either agree or don't. If you don't agree then you don't agree with real fats. I think you painted into a corner and improperly used "non sequitur" to try to get out of it. At this point you are just saying anything because you can't stand to agree with me. So tell me... If you can... Is PLEX valuable? Can only people who pay real money create plex? I doubt you can bring yourself to answer these two questions. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. Captain Tardbar: The official grumpy cat of General Discussion.
GreenSeed 781	Posted - 2013.12.15 05:46:00 - [48] - Quote Captain Tardbar wrote: Tippia wrote: Non sequitur, so no, I don't particularly have to. More to the point, it doesn't matter because as you point out, the supposed advantage is available whether you pay or not. So you are not going to agree with me at all? Does that mean you do not believe that PLEX is valuable in the EVE game and that only people who pay real money can create PLEX? I mean you either agree or don't. If you don't agree then you don't agree with real fats. I think you painted into a corner and improperly used "non sequitur" to try to get out of it. At this point you are just saying anything because you can't stand to agree with me. So tell me... If you can... Is PLEX valuable? Can only people who pay real money create plex? I doubt you can bring yourself to answer these two questions. the value of the item has no bearing on its effect ingame, plex could be worth 100bill, but its still useless in game. the fact is, plex CANNOT be traded for in game "things" that don't comply with this two rules: first, the "thing" must be the result of the eve production chain. and second, the "thing" must not have a bearing on ingame combat or market visibility. you cant trade plex for golden ammo, you cant trade plex or aur for a NPC produced ship, module or service that can increase combat proficiency or market visibility. this game has cosmetic microtransactions, and plex. plex is not a microtransaction, AUR is, but the only items for sale in exchange of AUR have no bearing in combat or market visibility, even when they are not player produced.
Captain Tardbar Sons of Sam 788	Posted - 2013.12.15 05:57:00 - [49] - Quote GreenSeed wrote: Captain Tardbar wrote: Tippia wrote: Non sequitur, so no, I don't particularly have to. More to the point, it doesn't matter because as you point out, the supposed advantage is available whether you pay or not. So you are not going to agree with me at all? Does that mean you do not believe that PLEX is valuable in the EVE game and that only people who pay real money can create PLEX? I mean you either agree or don't. If you don't agree then you don't agree with real fats. I think you painted into a corner and improperly used "non sequitur" to try to get out of it. At this point you are just saying anything because you can't stand to agree with me. So tell me... If you can... Is PLEX valuable? Can only people who pay real money create plex? I doubt you can bring yourself to answer these two questions. the value of the item has no bearing on its effect ingame, plex could be worth 100bill, but its still useless in game. the fact is, plex CANNOT be traded for in game "things" that don't comply with this two rules: first, the "thing" must be the result of the eve production chain. and second, the "thing" must not have a bearing on ingame combat or market visibility. you cant trade plex for golden ammo, you cant trade plex or aur for a NPC produced ship, module or service that can increase combat proficiency or market visibility. this game has cosmetic microtransactions, and plex. plex is not a microtransaction, AUR is, but the only items for sale in exchange of AUR have no bearing in combat or market visibility, even when they are not player produced. You haven't read my entire line of thinking... Anyone can create modules, ships, and ammo in EVE. Do you agree? Only people who spend money can create PLEX. Do you agree? Hence the advantage. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. Captain Tardbar: The official grumpy cat of General Discussion.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 9038	Posted - 2013.12.15 06:01:00 - [50] - Quote Tippia wrote: PLEX serve no in-game function I have to disagree with this. They provide us with endless in game content Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship

James Amril-Kesh 4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation 6931	Posted - 2013.12.15 06:12:00 - [51] - Quote Captain Tardbar wrote: You haven't read my entire line of thinking... Anyone can create modules, ships, and ammo in EVE. Do you agree? Only people who spend money can create PLEX. Do you agree? Hence the advantage. "Anyone can create titans, only people who spend money can buy a monocle. Hence the advantage." Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed
Bel Amar Rules of Acquisition Acquisition Of Empire 49	Posted - 2013.12.15 06:58:00 - [52] - Quote Captain Tardbar wrote: So basically people with lots of money pay other people minimum wage to do all the hard work while they sit back and sip champagne on their yachts. Kind of like real life. Pretty much Quote: I am just saying its silly to say that people who spend cash on the game have no advantage over people that don't. So, you're refuting a claim I never made? If you have a closer look at my post, i said that it is /technically/ p2w, and I also said that you as an individual can come out ahead. My point wasn't that an individual can't benefit, rather just that the EVE system redistributes in game assets for real world cash, instead of spawning it out of nothing, so the game as a whole is no worse off. I'm not sure how you took "people who spend cash get no advantage" from that...
Crumplecorn Eve Cluster Explorations 574	Posted - 2013.12.15 11:18:00 - [53] - Quote Captain Tardbar wrote: Anyone can create modules, ships, and ammo in EVE. Do you agree? Only people who spend money can create PLEX. Do you agree? Hence the advantage. The only in-game use of PLEX is to acquire ISK. All players can acquire ISK. No advantage. [img]http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php?r=rnd[/img] Desusigs can be seen on the terribad new forums using bbcode enabling script (scroll down to my post for sig rotation)
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 17741	Posted - 2013.12.15 12:18:00 - [54] - Quote Captain Tardbar wrote: So you are not going to agree with me at all? I'm not going to agree with your non sequitur, no, becauseGÇª wellGÇª it's a non sequitur so it would be rather silly of me to do so. At that point, your supporting evidence doesn't matter because the conclusion you draw from it is incorrect no matter what. Quote: I mean you either agree or don't. GÇªor I reject your entire premise, as well as your false dilemma. Quote: You haven't read my entire line of thinking... Anyone can create modules, ships, and ammo in EVE. Do you agree? Only people who spend money can create PLEX. Do you agree? Hence the advantage. GÇªexcept that PLEX has no in-game function and therefore offers no advantage. It's just game time GÇö time everyone has (because otherwise they wouldn't be in the game). So it is pretty much completely unlike things like modules, ships, and ammo. If anything, the buyers are at an advantage since they can obviously create that kind of ISK without having to go sell game time to other players to do so, whereas the seller cannot for various reasons. If you want to say that the buying party has a monopoly on PLEX, then the buying party has a far greater monopoly: on ISK. Your come-back will be GÇ£anyone can make ISKGÇ¥, but guess what, under comparable circumstances, anyone can make PLEX too. So if you are really going to go with the monopoly angle, then there are two of them GÇö one on PLEX and one on ISK and both give the same advantage. So in the end, there is no actual advantage since everything cancels itself out. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0.
James Amril-Kesh 4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation 6936	Posted - 2013.12.15 12:28:00 - [55] - Quote Crumplecorn wrote: Captain Tardbar wrote: Anyone can create modules, ships, and ammo in EVE. Do you agree? Only people who spend money can create PLEX. Do you agree? Hence the advantage. The only in-game use of PLEX is to acquire ISK. All players can acquire ISK. No advantage. That's not technically true. You can use PLEX to train with more than one character per account. But that doesn't really count since that's equivalent to activating another account for 30 days (except that you can use the character after the time has expired). Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed


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