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Onslaughtor
Alexylva Paradox
63
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Posted - 2013.12.16 09:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
So my suggestion is simple. Move the two utility highs to one extra mid and one extra low. This would give the Sansha vessels greater tank, cap stability, damage, and ewar potential. Other minor tweaks could be given to make them match the other soon to be nerfed / buffed pirate ships. It would also make them stand out more compared to the other pirate flavors.
Anyway I hope this is seen and considered. I love Sansha ships and want to see them become something more that mildly good. |
Electrique Wizard
Mutually Lucrative Business Proposals Market and Contract PVP
225
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Posted - 2013.12.16 10:28:00 -
[2] - Quote
Onslaughtor wrote:So my suggestion is simple. Move the two utility highs to one extra mid and one extra low. This would give the Sansha vessels greater tank, cap stability, damage, and ewar potential. Other minor tweaks could be given to make them match the other soon to be nerfed / buffed pirate ships. It would also make them stand out more compared to the other pirate flavors.
Anyway I hope this is seen and considered. I love Sansha ships and want to see them become something more that mildly good.
you mean add a Shield HP/level Shield resists/level or Shield boost/level and add an extra turret highslot I am the Zodiac, I am the stars, You are the sorceress, my priestess of Mars, Queen of the night, swathed in satin black, Your ivory flesh upon my torture rack. |
Naomi Anthar
179
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Posted - 2013.12.16 11:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
don't forget to also give back phantasm and nightmare slots that have been stolen.
Check amount of slots of other pirate BS and cruisers.
AND NO SANSHA ARE NOT DRONE boats(that would justify lost slots). |
Seranova Farreach
510
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Posted - 2013.12.16 11:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
i found the sansha ships need nos range and % per level on nos. and extra mid+1 and low +1 on the phantasm _______________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg
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Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
614
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Posted - 2013.12.16 12:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
Naomi Anthar wrote:don't forget to also give back phantasm and nightmare slots that have been stolen.
Check amount of slots of other pirate BS and cruisers.
AND NO SANSHA ARE NOT DRONE boats(that would justify lost slots).
While I agree that Sansha ships are underpowered, you are forgetting that each turret high slot is effectively 2 high slots. You could change the 100% laser bonus to a 50% cap use bonus, and give the nightmare 8 high/turret slots (and buff the PG and CPU to compensate), and all you will have done is take away the utility highs, and make the guns more expensive to fire with faction/t2 ammo - but you will have fixed the "slot number imbalance"
FWIW, I think the role bonus is pretty crappy. It is essentially a 50% cap use reduction bonus, and a work around to eves 8 slot limitation (allowing for utility highs while still sporting the equivalent of a full gun rack). CCP has pretty much decided that the cap use bonus is pretty crappy (and has removed the bonus from most amarr ships).
It only gets 2 real bonuses to effectiveness: damage and tracking, other pirate boats get 3 (like the mach, damage, ROF , and falloff).
The Sansha and Guristas lines are underpower in part because their 3rd bonus is crap. Guristas pilots don't care much about their missile range bonus, when the missiles have no damage/sig/exp velocity bonus, and so few launchers that its almost never worth fitting BCUs (CCP also seems to shy away from split weapon bonuses now).
So, lets combine the role bonuses for sansha with the caldari damage bonus, and then give them a more "caldari" bonus.
Role Bonus: +100% energy turret damage -> +150% energy turret damage
Caldari ship bonus: +5% energy turret damage/level -> +4% shield resistances/level (I was thinking a range bonus might be good too, making it an Apoc with shields and more DPS)
Amarr ship bonus: stays the same
Note that the DPS stays the same: (1+1)*1.25 = (1+1.5) |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
340
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Posted - 2013.12.16 12:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote:Naomi Anthar wrote:don't forget to also give back phantasm and nightmare slots that have been stolen.
Check amount of slots of other pirate BS and cruisers.
AND NO SANSHA ARE NOT DRONE boats(that would justify lost slots). While I agree that Sansha ships are underpowered, you are forgetting that each turret high slot is effectively 2 high slots. You could change the 100% laser bonus to a 50% cap use bonus, and give the nightmare 8 high/turret slots (and buff the PG and CPU to compensate), and all you will have done is take away the utility highs, and make the guns more expensive to fire with faction/t2 ammo - but you will have fixed the "slot number imbalance" FWIW, I think the role bonus is pretty crappy. It is essentially a 50% cap use reduction bonus, and a work around to eves 8 slot limitation (allowing for utility highs while still sporting the equivalent of a full gun rack). CCP has pretty much decided that the cap use bonus is pretty crappy (and has removed the bonus from most amarr ships). It only gets 2 real bonuses to effectiveness: damage and tracking, other pirate boats get 3 (like the mach, damage, tracking, and falloff). The Sansha and Guristas lines are underpower in part because their 3rd bonus is crap. Guristas pilots don't care much about their missile range bonus, when the missiles have no damage/sig/exp velocity bonus, and so few launchers that its almost never worth fitting BCUs (CCP also seems to shy away from split weapon bonuses now). So, lets combine the role bonuses for sansha with the caldari damage bonus, and then give them a more "caldari" bonus. Role Bonus: +100% energy turret damage -> +150% energy turret damage Caldari ship bonus: +5% energy turret damage/level -> +4% shield resistances/level (I was thinking a range bonus might be good too, making it an Apoc with shields and more DPS) Amarr ship bonus: stays the same Note that the DPS stays the same: (1+1)*1.25 = (1+1.5)
Although this isn't a bad idea you need to look at the missing slots as well as what the bonuses imply.
A 4% resistance bonus is extremly powerful and is essentially a built in Invulnerability Field. So that bonus is the equivalent of a +1 mid slot.
I completely agree and understand what you're getting at with the damage bonus being effectively a cap reduction bonus. However, I think the first step in rebalancing Sansh ships is to look at their slot layout and number of slots (Phantasm/Nightmare). |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
614
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 13:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:Although this isn't a bad idea you need to look at the missing slots as well as what the bonuses imply.
A 4% resistance bonus is extremly powerful and is essentially a built in Invulnerability Field. So that bonus is the equivalent of a +1 mid slot.
And a 25% damage bonus is even more powerful than a built in heat sink, so that is the "equivalent" of a +1 low slot. A 37.5% damage bonus is even more powerful than a built in tracking speed scripted tracking computer, so that is the "equivalent" of a +1 mid slot.
When the resistance changes came out, I was initially supportive, mainly because it was a nerf to the Draek which desperately needed it at the time. Also it made the bonus not just plain better than active rep/boost bonuses. But after thinking about the bonus relative to modules, it seems rather weak. For almost every bonus, there is a module or rig that provides a similar benefit*, and the bonus is almost always just plain better, even before factoring in stacking. *for exceptions like neut amount, or web strength, one can are partially compensate by use of additional neuts or webs. For cap use bonuses... I guess you just fit mods that buff your cap. Although there's nothing to be done for web/neut/point range bonuses, or sig radius reduction bonuses. Still these bonuses are pretty rare
20% resists at lvl 5 compared to 30% for T2 Invulns Of course that isn't subject to stacking penalties, but the same is true of any bonus.
Meanwhile, a T2 damage mod does ~21% increased DPS, compared to 33.3% for a ROF bonus, or 25% for a damage bonus. T2 TCs do 30% more tracking, compared ot 37.5 for the tracking bonuses. The range bonuses are always more than TEs or TCs (37.5/50% compared to 15/30% for a TC), but do not boost optimal and falloff at the same time unlike TE/TC
So, when looking at the bonus in terms of a "free module" that counts as a slot, I really don't think the 4% resist bonus is out of line.
It would certainly go in with what sansha ships seem designed to do - and that is brawl.
Tank, DPS, and tracking. The utility high also allow for cap warfare.
A NM needs to worry about keeping itself from being capped out, not capping out others - I suppose you could try to neut the other out before they neut you, but... meh, capacitor is weak on sansha ships, and I'd hesitate to give it a bonus to yet another cap consuming module (and NOSes are useless now on the BSs in PvP, not that anyone uses Nightmares in PvP, unlike machs, vindis, and bhaals) A passive resist bonus seems better, it doesn't lead to stressing the cap of an already cap stressed ship.
Personally, in addition to changing the bonuses, I'd reduce the shield recharge time to be similar to that of the Rattlesnake, so that the NM could sport a halfway decent passive shield tank. I'd also buff the cap a bit, and buff the speed to be more in line with the post-rebalance battleships. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
251
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Posted - 2013.12.16 14:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
The Phantasm and the Succubus are certainly miserable, but the Nightmare is a fine ship. It sounds as though you are doing something wrong.
Passive-tanked laser ship? Are you joking? |
Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill
71
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Posted - 2013.12.16 14:23:00 -
[9] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Although this isn't a bad idea you need to look at the missing slots as well as what the bonuses imply.
A 4% resistance bonus is extremly powerful and is essentially a built in Invulnerability Field. So that bonus is the equivalent of a +1 mid slot.
I completely agree and understand what you're getting at with the damage bonus being effectively a cap reduction bonus. However, I think the first step in rebalancing Sansh ships is to look at their slot layout and number of slots (Phantasm/Nightmare).
Ehh no. Big no. Laser based ships get a crappy -10% capacitor use bonus and CCP does not feel sorry for them. But if they get +4% resists bonus they suddenly are overpowered and require one slot to be removed? A ship cannot be punished for having a good bonus.
It's like with T3. There are two main defensive subs: +4% resists and +10% hp. The +4% is better so to compensate it provides one less low/mid slot. Great. But when i get the other sub I get both +50% to hp AND I can still fit EANM of Invu field. Making the +4% to resists sub a piece of Cr*p. |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
621
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Posted - 2013.12.16 14:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
you can't give them 4% sh resist that's a gurista's trait.. to improve the sansha ships some suggestions are :-
Sansha line - attack ships -tracking bonus , damage bonus, cap use bonus maybe even add a falloff bonus for some uniqueness.. -add the missing slots into lows/highs - more drones/guns to improve dps Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
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Batelle
Komm susser Tod
647
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Posted - 2013.12.16 14:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
no need to take away the utility highs. It just needs another lowslot and some improvements to its base stats across the board. Bonuses, 3 turrets with 100% bonus are fine. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
614
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 19:53:00 -
[12] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:The Phantasm and the Succubus are certainly miserable, but the Nightmare is a fine ship. It sounds as though you are doing something wrong.
Passive-tanked laser ship? Are you joking?
The nightmare has one role, and one role only: Incursion running.
For PvP - Lulz
For PvE outside of high sec - lulz
For high sec solo PvE - its meh. No selectable damage, the rats weak to to damage type also hit the NM in its native resist hole. (ie rats weak to EM damage also do EM damage, which the NM is weak against).
The old Paladin was comparable, the new Paladin is just plain better.
If you have a NM and do anything but incursion with it, or run in Amarr space while training for a marauder, you're doing it wrong.
As for a passive tanked laser ship.... why not? Pirate ships are supposed to give you unique combinations after all. Its certainly better than an active tanked laser ship that is guaranteed to murder your cap in any real fight.
Harvey James wrote:you can't give them 4% sh resist that's a gurista's trait. No, its a caldari trait, which the NM is supposed to have. With that logic, the NM also can't get a tracking speed bonus, because thats a Serpentis trait... |
Nariya Kentaya
Always Negative
743
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 21:12:00 -
[13] - Quote
Naomi Anthar wrote:don't forget to also give back phantasm and nightmare slots that have been stolen.
Check amount of slots of other pirate BS and cruisers.
AND NO SANSHA ARE NOT DRONE boats(that would justify lost slots). of course they are dorne boats, they have alsers and are part amarr, only thing left now is for CCP Rise to make them a missile baot too, and they become the perfect amarr pirate ship |
Drake Doe
SVER Bloodpack Insidious Empire
300
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Posted - 2013.12.16 21:38:00 -
[14] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:you can't give them 4% sh resist that's a gurista's trait.. to improve the sansha ships some suggestions are :-
Sansha line - attack ships -tracking bonus , damage bonus, cap use bonus maybe even add a falloff bonus for some uniqueness.. -add the missing slots into lows/highs - more drones/guns to improve dps Why can't bonuses be shared consisering that serpentis and most blood raider ships have the same web bonus? "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! *pops more corn*" ---Evernub-- |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
621
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Posted - 2013.12.16 21:40:00 -
[15] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote:Harvey James wrote:you can't give them 4% sh resist that's a gurista's trait.. to improve the sansha ships some suggestions are :-
Sansha line - attack ships -tracking bonus , damage bonus, cap use bonus maybe even add a falloff bonus for some uniqueness.. -add the missing slots into lows/highs - more drones/guns to improve dps Why can't bonuses be shared consisering that serpentis and most blood raider ships have the same web bonus?
i think people are taking it too literally... but we don't want half of the pirate ships having the same tanking bonuses Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Drake Doe
SVER Bloodpack Insidious Empire
300
|
Posted - 2013.12.16 21:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Drake Doe wrote:Harvey James wrote:you can't give them 4% sh resist that's a gurista's trait.. to improve the sansha ships some suggestions are :-
Sansha line - attack ships -tracking bonus , damage bonus, cap use bonus maybe even add a falloff bonus for some uniqueness.. -add the missing slots into lows/highs - more drones/guns to improve dps Why can't bonuses be shared consisering that serpentis and most blood raider ships have the same web bonus? i think people are taking it too literally... but we don't want half of the pirate ships having the same tanking bonuses It's not like they don't already share the same tank type and a resist bonus is overall more useful than a shield boost amount bonus, since it isn't wasted on passive fits. "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! *pops more corn*" ---Evernub-- |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
621
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Posted - 2013.12.16 21:57:00 -
[17] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote:Harvey James wrote:Drake Doe wrote:Harvey James wrote:you can't give them 4% sh resist that's a gurista's trait.. to improve the sansha ships some suggestions are :-
Sansha line - attack ships -tracking bonus , damage bonus, cap use bonus maybe even add a falloff bonus for some uniqueness.. -add the missing slots into lows/highs - more drones/guns to improve dps Why can't bonuses be shared consisering that serpentis and most blood raider ships have the same web bonus? i think people are taking it too literally... but we don't want half of the pirate ships having the same tanking bonuses It's not like they don't already share the same tank type and a resist bonus is overall more useful than a shield boost amount bonus, since it isn't wasted on passive fits.
but the factions ship line would lose its flavour if it shares a strong trait like sh resist with another faction... i would prefer sansha to be the laser version of angels really .. fast shield tanked and with scorch and tracking bonus they could be very nice anti support ships. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Drake Doe
SVER Bloodpack Insidious Empire
300
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Posted - 2013.12.16 22:03:00 -
[18] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:Drake Doe wrote:Harvey James wrote:Drake Doe wrote:Harvey James wrote:you can't give them 4% sh resist that's a gurista's trait.. to improve the sansha ships some suggestions are :-
Sansha line - attack ships -tracking bonus , damage bonus, cap use bonus maybe even add a falloff bonus for some uniqueness.. -add the missing slots into lows/highs - more drones/guns to improve dps Why can't bonuses be shared consisering that serpentis and most blood raider ships have the same web bonus? i think people are taking it too literally... but we don't want half of the pirate ships having the same tanking bonuses It's not like they don't already share the same tank type and a resist bonus is overall more useful than a shield boost amount bonus, since it isn't wasted on passive fits. but the factions ship line would lose its flavour if it shares a strong trait like sh resist with another faction... i would prefer sansha to be the laser version of angels really .. fast shield tanked and with scorch and tracking bonus they could be very nice anti support ships. That would just be trading one stolen distinction for another. "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! *pops more corn*" ---Evernub-- |
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
621
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Posted - 2013.12.16 22:25:00 -
[19] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote:Harvey James wrote:Drake Doe wrote:Harvey James wrote:you can't give them 4% sh resist that's a gurista's trait.. to improve the sansha ships some suggestions are :-
Sansha line - attack ships -tracking bonus , damage bonus, cap use bonus maybe even add a falloff bonus for some uniqueness.. -add the missing slots into lows/highs - more drones/guns to improve dps Why can't bonuses be shared consisering that serpentis and most blood raider ships have the same web bonus? i think people are taking it too literally... but we don't want half of the pirate ships having the same tanking bonuses It's not like they don't already share the same tank type and a resist bonus is overall more useful than a shield boost amount bonus, since it isn't wasted on passive fits.
Quote:but the factions ship line would lose its flavour if it shares a strong trait like sh resist with another faction... i would prefer sansha to be the laser version of angels really .. fast shield tanked and with scorch and tracking bonus they could be very nice anti support ships. That would just be trading one stolen distinction for another.
well i don't think speed is a distinct trait only angels have/can have Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION The Obsidian Front
340
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Posted - 2013.12.16 22:45:00 -
[20] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:Spugg Galdon wrote:
Although this isn't a bad idea you need to look at the missing slots as well as what the bonuses imply.
A 4% resistance bonus is extremly powerful and is essentially a built in Invulnerability Field. So that bonus is the equivalent of a +1 mid slot.
I completely agree and understand what you're getting at with the damage bonus being effectively a cap reduction bonus. However, I think the first step in rebalancing Sansh ships is to look at their slot layout and number of slots (Phantasm/Nightmare).
Ehh no. Big no. Laser based ships get a crappy -10% capacitor use bonus and CCP does not feel sorry for them. But if they get +4% resists bonus they suddenly are overpowered and require one slot to be removed? A ship cannot be punished for having a good bonus. It's like with T3. There are two main defensive subs: +4% resists and +10% hp. The +4% is better so to compensate it provides one less low/mid slot. Great. But when i get the other sub I get both +50% to hp AND I can still fit EANM of Invu field. Making the +4% to resists sub a piece of Cr*p.
you mis understand me. What I am saying is that giving this ship a 4% sh Resist bonus AND another mid slot would be silly. It would be the equivalent of giving it 2 mid slots.
Also, don't you guys know? Sansha ships are supposed to be slow. Like Gurista ships.
EDIT: All the Phantasm needs is to move a util high to a low and give it the slot it's missing. Another low wouldn't go a miss |
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Drake Doe
SVER Bloodpack Insidious Empire
300
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Posted - 2013.12.17 00:35:00 -
[21] - Quote
So why should having high shield resists be any different, especially since that alone doesn't define guristas ships? "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! *pops more corn*" ---Evernub-- |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
1458
|
Posted - 2013.12.17 01:11:00 -
[22] - Quote
I thought Sansha ships were supposed to be reasonably fast and Blood ships were supposed to be the slow ones? |
Cassius Invictus
Thou shalt not kill
71
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Posted - 2013.12.17 10:39:00 -
[23] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:I thought Sansha ships were supposed to be reasonably fast and Blood ships were supposed to be the slow ones?
Yep. My problem is that both Serpentis and Angels are just good ships at what they doing. Pirate BS should, according to CCP, do more dps than T2 and T1. Ok Serpentis and Angels do that. What about other factions?
Gurista's do nothing that a gallente drone ship could not do. They don't have higher dps nor speed or tank.
Blood raiders are cr*p except Bhaalgorn, which is nice, but it should not be a pirate ship at all. It's not designed for dps but for e-war. So u really can't compare it to other pirate ships.
Snasha bear the problem of any laser ship which is having lasers. So they need cr*ppy capacitor bonus and therefore nightmare has the same dps as abaddon or paladin. It should have more than that.
Both Serpentis and Angel have more speed and dps that their T2 or navy counterparts. Thats great. Now give this to other factions too. If u want to give tank instead of speed its ok. I don't care who gets what as long as they get it.
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