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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5312
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Posted - 2013.12.18 08:37:00 -
[271] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:Drones might be overplayed as a cause, here. We commonly see non-reinforced nodes look for a rope to hang themselves on when a SC blob throws them out, but in fights like 6VDT pretty much everyone was flying drones, and it worked out well enough. Who was everyone, a few prophecies dropping 3 each before dying? Also that was the nice jita node :)
An SC is what 20? And an archon has tons and can use 10? But it might not faze the mighty jita node. There are no goons. The goons; 0.0 dream is over.
Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action. ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard Tactical Narcotics Team
83
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Posted - 2013.12.18 09:05:00 -
[272] - Quote
Tippia wrote: BiB should help with the spikes that happen as people jump in, warp to grids, and explode, but something else will be needed for the kind of on-going effects of a prolonged fight. Granted, some of that might just be deferred GÇ£brain set-upGÇ¥ processing that continuously slow down the node, but that really comes down to what the source for the strain is.
You are missing an event there.
Refitting a ship.
Every time one of those carriers in the blob takes off a module, the brain needs to recalculate. When the new module is placed, it has to do so again. I've been wondering if some first steps towards that have been taken and that is affecting the stability in these fights. |
Speedkermit Damo
Demonic Retribution Nullsec Ninjas
147
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Posted - 2013.12.18 09:53:00 -
[273] - Quote
Seems to me that the best way to avoid node-crashing is for CCP to rework sov-mechanics, so that instead of two huge blobs laying into each other, we could have a system where several different objectives need to be secured within a single constellation at the same time. This would hopefully serve to split the enormous blobs and the resulting server load and horrible TIDI.
Too bad a sov-rework is never likely to happen though. Don't Panic.
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Pipa Porto
1402
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Posted - 2013.12.18 10:01:00 -
[274] - Quote
Speedkermit Damo wrote:we could have a system where several different objectives need to be secured within a single constellation at the same time.
The problem with this is as follows:
The attackers need to successfully attack two things. The defenders only need to successfully defend one thing. The defenders pile into one system, the attackers send one guy to take care of the other thing and pile right in after the defenders.
Congratulations, you've successfully reduced the load by one pilot. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Speedkermit Damo
Demonic Retribution Nullsec Ninjas
147
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Posted - 2013.12.18 11:40:00 -
[275] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Speedkermit Damo wrote:we could have a system where several different objectives need to be secured within a single constellation at the same time. The problem with this is as follows: The attackers need to successfully attack two things. The defenders only need to successfully defend one thing. The defenders pile into one system, the attackers send one guy to take care of the other thing and pile right in after the defenders. Congratulations, you've successfully reduced the load by one pilot.
Op success Don't Panic.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
17818
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Posted - 2013.12.18 11:46:00 -
[276] - Quote
tiberiusric wrote:twaddle So you agree with me then, seeing as how you couldn't actually address any of my points or even stay on topic, and instead had to go off on some curious ad hominem rant? Well, thanks for the support, I suppose, although I really would have preferred it less caustic.
Vald Tegor wrote:You are missing an event there.
Refitting a ship.
Every time one of those carriers in the blob takes off a module, the brain needs to recalculate. When the new module is placed, it has to do so again. I've been wondering if some first steps towards that have been taken and that is affecting the stability in these fights. Ah, fair point. Question is if it happens often enough for it to have such a huge impact. The again, it's a tactic that has gained some popularity and more widespread use over time, especially now that depots have opened people's eyes for its uses even on a small/individual scale. At any rate, it's still limited to reducing load for one particular kind of event -- granted, one that has a huge impact -- and which is a point event rather than a continuous thing. I'm not saying it won't help, just that it will only help in specific instances.
...it will certainly improve Jita, though, since that's practically all brain-calculation load. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
SFM Hobb3s
Vanguard Frontiers Black Legion.
37
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Posted - 2013.12.18 14:49:00 -
[277] - Quote
For every server tick, the node has to account for almost just as many conditions for EACH drone as it does EACH ship.
It has to account for pilot skills, module effects, fleet bonuses, motion, action taken, action received (damage). Now pilots themselves usually have a few more modules running that don't affect drones, but for the most part its likely a nearly even cpu load between the pilot and each drone.
So if each pilot is taking up the cpu load of a minimum 5 pilots (and this doesn't count any abandoned drones), how is this good for the node?
People keep trying to downplay the affects of drones on the node, I think it should be the opposite. |
Rab See
Fool Mental Junket
17
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Posted - 2013.12.19 11:54:00 -
[278] - Quote
So looking at the issues, notably number of tracked objects, and how this 'explodes' on drone release by players - carriers and supers even worse ...
One possibility - remove the drone numbers from carriers - make it drone damage/hitpoints etc to work up to the same damage application. Doesnt help much unless supers and carriers are prevalent, but might just squeeze more from the current system.
Secondly - like grouped guns, have grouped drones. You drone cluster turns into one larger drone 'cloud' .... and hits, tanks, moves accordingly. One object rather than 5 ...
Or rewrite everything such that a ship and its drones become a single damage applying entity - meh - not like. |
ArchenTheGreat
BRAB0 The Volition Cult
27
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Posted - 2013.12.19 12:05:00 -
[279] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Null sec blob players, just deal with the fact that most of us don't care about your "problems", and wish you would all just shut up, and if CCP started growing a spine, and told you this, Eve and CCP would be in a whole lot better shape.
You may not care but market does. Imagine all bitter vets quit from EVE because it's broken. Without massive fleets dying here or there there is no market for new ships, this makes no market for modules and minerals. Suddenly there is no point in producing and mining.
You will have to buy BPOs and mine minerals for all yours PVE Ravens lost on L4 missions. And than you will die of boredom. |
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ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
252
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Posted - 2013.12.19 20:54:00 -
[280] - Quote
A personal attack post has been removed.
Forum rule 4. Personal attacks are prohibited. ISD Tyrozan Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department @ISDTyrozan | @ISD_CCL |
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ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
252
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Posted - 2013.12.19 20:58:00 -
[281] - Quote
A spam post has been removed.
Forum rule 12. Spamming is prohibited. ISD Tyrozan Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department @ISDTyrozan | @ISD_CCL |
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ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
252
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Posted - 2013.12.19 21:55:00 -
[282] - Quote
A post consisting of moderation discussion has been removed.
Forum rule 11. Discussion of forum moderation is prohibited. ISD Tyrozan Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department @ISDTyrozan | @ISD_CCL |
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Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
520
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Posted - 2013.12.19 21:58:00 -
[283] - Quote
Just close this stupid thread already. "it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka-á |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5327
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Posted - 2013.12.19 22:11:00 -
[284] - Quote
Rab See wrote:One possibility - remove the drone numbers from carriers - make it drone damage/hitpoints etc to work up to the same damage application. Doesnt help much unless supers and carriers are prevalent, but might just squeeze more from the current system. Yeah, no one uses massive blobs of supercarriers and carriers nowadays that's impossible... There are no goons. The goons; 0.0 dream is over.
Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action. ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
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ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
252
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Posted - 2013.12.19 22:11:00 -
[285] - Quote
A trolling post was removed.
Forum rule 5. Trolling is prohibited. ISD Tyrozan Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department @ISDTyrozan | @ISD_CCL |
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
7040
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Posted - 2013.12.19 22:16:00 -
[286] - Quote
Rab See wrote:So looking at the issues, notably number of tracked objects, and how this 'explodes' on drone release by players - carriers and supers even worse ...
One possibility - remove the drone numbers from carriers - make it drone damage/hitpoints etc to work up to the same damage application. Doesnt help much unless supers and carriers are prevalent, but might just squeeze more from the current system.
Secondly - like grouped guns, have grouped drones. You drone cluster turns into one larger drone 'cloud' .... and hits, tanks, moves accordingly. One object rather than 5 ...
Or rewrite everything such that a ship and its drones become a single damage applying entity - meh - not like. Gun groups only share simultaneous ammo switching and activation/deactivation. The chance to hit and damage is still applied to each gun individually and then summed for the total volley. Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
802
|
Posted - 2013.12.19 22:37:00 -
[287] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Speedkermit Damo wrote:we could have a system where several different objectives need to be secured within a single constellation at the same time. The problem with this is as follows: The attackers need to successfully attack two things. The defenders only need to successfully defend one thing. The defenders pile into one system, the attackers send one guy to take care of the other thing and pile right in after the defenders. Congratulations, you've successfully reduced the load by one pilot.
The capability of the defensive side to commit in chain to many different point is what bring this massive blob requirement because if the attack can't win system A, they won't win system B either. There need to be a way to lock committed force from also intervening in system B just like an armored division would not be able to plug 2 breaches in a defensive line. They have to commit to one and other force will need to be used to plug the other one. Defending a site with 200 carrier should mean those 200 carrier are there for quite some time and the same for the offensive side. Then each side has to decide what goes where and you can't just out-blob the other side in a site and then go system to system putting your weight in every battle.
The defensive would have to think how many eggs to put in the first basket to be sure it might be able to reply if other baskets happens.
EDIT : The attacking side should be tied to the same force commitement rules too. |
Brendan Anneto
Dread Phoenix Society Fidelas Constans
12
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Posted - 2013.12.19 23:49:00 -
[288] - Quote
Mr Sniggle-Worth Onzo wrote:CCP has stated time and time again that the game in its current state cannot handle large number of players in system. This has been known for years. We know there is never going to be a fix for the fact that the hardware/software can't handle the amount of stress that we the players can put on it. So instead of letting the players have control over whether or not to crash your node why not make a simple change to the game that keeps the node from crashing? Limit the number of pilots to one system to 1000 players. Yes limit the number of players! It will create content. It will keep the server from crashing. No more tidi. You will see a different type of Null sec. This idea is not new. Jita for example only what max of 2000 players on its super Node before traffic control kicks in. CCP regain control of your game and just simply limit the number of players to any one system to X to keep it up and running. Thank you have a nice day! Well how about you just ban nullsec fights like 6vdt-h. Ban setting records and remove all large player PVP in Nullsec. Mabye that would make a difference Proverbs 1:26-27 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5327
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 00:04:00 -
[289] - Quote
Brendan Anneto wrote:Mr Sniggle-Worth Onzo wrote:CCP has stated time and time again that the game in its current state cannot handle large number of players in system. This has been known for years. We know there is never going to be a fix for the fact that the hardware/software can't handle the amount of stress that we the players can put on it. So instead of letting the players have control over whether or not to crash your node why not make a simple change to the game that keeps the node from crashing? Limit the number of pilots to one system to 1000 players. Yes limit the number of players! It will create content. It will keep the server from crashing. No more tidi. You will see a different type of Null sec. This idea is not new. Jita for example only what max of 2000 players on its super Node before traffic control kicks in. CCP regain control of your game and just simply limit the number of players to any one system to X to keep it up and running. Thank you have a nice day! Well how about you just ban nullsec fights like 6vdt-h. Ban setting records and remove all large player PVP in Nullsec. Mabye that would make a difference Break all coalitions, using out of game communications also an exploit There are no goons. The goons; 0.0 dream is over.
Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action. ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Pipa Porto
1420
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 03:07:00 -
[290] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:The capability of the defensive side to commit in chain to many different point is what bring this massive blob requirement because if the attack can't win system A, they won't win system B either. There need to be a way to lock committed force from also intervening in system B just like an armored division would not be able to plug 2 breaches in a defensive line. They have to commit to one and other force will need to be used to plug the other one. Defending a site with 200 carrier should mean those 200 carrier are there for quite some time and the same for the offensive side. Then each side has to decide what goes where and you can't just out-blob the other side in a site and then go system to system putting your weight in every battle.
The defensive would have to think how many eggs to put in the first basket to be sure it might be able to reply if other baskets happens.
EDIT : The attacking side should be tied to the same force commitement rules too.
Ok, so how do you tie down a defensive force that ends up not being faced with an attacking force? Also, how do you make it fun for the people being so tied?
RL ties forces down by various physical limitations, and makes it fun for them by the simple expedient of not being shot at being inherently more fun than being shot at. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5329
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 04:13:00 -
[291] - Quote
Add very painful jumping animations that are also TiDied There are no goons. The goons; 0.0 dream is over.
Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action. ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
17829
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 04:16:00 -
[292] - Quote
Vald Tegor wrote:You are missing an event there.
Refitting a ship.
Every time one of those carriers in the blob takes off a module, the brain needs to recalculate. When the new module is placed, it has to do so again. I've been wondering if some first steps towards that have been taken and that is affecting the stability in these fights. Ah, fair point. Question is if it happens often enough for it to have such a huge impact. The again, it's a tactic that has gained some popularity and more widespread use over time, especially now that depots have opened people's eyes for its uses even on a small/individual scale. At any rate, it's still limited to reducing load for one particular kind of event -- granted, one that has a huge impact -- and which is a point event rather than a continuous thing. I'm not saying it won't help, just that it will only help in specific instances.
...it will certainly improve Jita, though, since that's practically all brain-calculation load. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Pipa Porto
1424
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Posted - 2013.12.20 05:15:00 -
[293] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Ok, so how do you tie down a defensive force that ends up not being faced with an attacking force? Also, how do you make it fun for the people being so tied?
RL ties forces down by various physical limitations, and makes it fun for them by the simple expedient of not being shot at being inherently more fun than being shot at. It's not gonna be fun to be trapped but as long as committing your forces is meaningless on a strategical point, all the fight will end up being a gigantic TiDi hell because the best strat will always be to mass all you can on the focal point of the fight. This kind of change is of course only to be persued if people want to change the way it currently work. If people are more happy with 10% tidi fights, then there is no point to change the system.
Fine, we'll ignore that making people engage in unengaging, unfun gameplay is like number one on the "Never ******* do this" list of basic game design:
So how do you change the way it works in order to tie down the defensive force? EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
802
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 05:30:00 -
[294] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Ok, so how do you tie down a defensive force that ends up not being faced with an attacking force? Also, how do you make it fun for the people being so tied?
RL ties forces down by various physical limitations, and makes it fun for them by the simple expedient of not being shot at being inherently more fun than being shot at. It's not gonna be fun to be trapped but as long as committing your forces is meaningless on a strategical point, all the fight will end up being a gigantic TiDi hell because the best strat will always be to mass all you can on the focal point of the fight. This kind of change is of course only to be persued if people want to change the way it currently work. If people are more happy with 10% tidi fights, then there is no point to change the system. Fine, we'll ignore that making people engage in unengaging, unfun gameplay is like number one on the "Never ******* do this" list of basic game design: So how do you change the way it works in order to tie down the defensive force?
How about an anchorable unit with a rather short reinforce timer? Whoever want to get out shoots it and people who want to keep the trap up can rep it. It has a reinforce timer to prevent blobbing it with all your force from being optimal. Both side are of course locked while it's in system and un-anchoring it require as much time as the reinforce timer to make sure the side using it cannot just bail out of it.
They can put the reinforced timer as short as 5 minutes if they want but at least a little bit more would be preferable so the trap is at least trapping people for some time. You can't install a new one in system for at least 1 hour after one has been removed to prevent trap spamming. The trap module also spawn a beacon so you don't have to look for it much. |
Pipa Porto
1424
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Posted - 2013.12.20 05:52:00 -
[295] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:How about an anchorable unit with a rather short reinforce timer? Whoever want to get out shoots it and people who want to keep the trap up can rep it. It has a reinforce timer to prevent blobbing it with all your force from being optimal. Both side are of course locked while it's in system and un-anchoring it require as much time as the reinforce timer to make sure the side using it cannot just bail out of it.
They can put the reinforced timer as short as 5 minutes if they want but at least a little bit more would be preferable so the trap is at least trapping people for some time. You can't install a new one in system for at least 1 hour after one has been removed to prevent trap spamming. The trap module also spawn a beacon so you don't have to look for it much.
So.... I find a staging system, launch this, and nobody from there gets to join the fight?
This encourages sending one guy to your enemy's staging system with one of these set to the longest possible RF timer. While they're stuck, you do whatever it is you need to do. 5 minutes is more than long enough to knock things down if you know you'll go unopposed.
How does something that allows one guy to render a fleet irrelevant to a fight encourage anyone to split forces the way you're aiming to encourage? EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5335
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Posted - 2013.12.20 06:03:00 -
[296] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:How about an anchorable unit with a rather short reinforce timer? Whoever want to get out shoots it and people who want to keep the trap up can rep it. It has a reinforce timer to prevent blobbing it with all your force from being optimal. Both side are of course locked while it's in system and un-anchoring it require as much time as the reinforce timer to make sure the side using it cannot just bail out of it.
They can put the reinforced timer as short as 5 minutes if they want but at least a little bit more would be preferable so the trap is at least trapping people for some time. You can't install a new one in system for at least 1 hour after one has been removed to prevent trap spamming. The trap module also spawn a beacon so you don't have to look for it much. So.... I find a staging system, launch this, and nobody from there gets to join the fight? This encourages sending one guy to your enemy's staging system with one of these set to the longest possible RF timer. While they're stuck, you do whatever it is you need to do. 5 minutes is more than long enough to knock things down if you know you'll go unopposed. How does something that allows one guy to render a fleet irrelevant to a fight encourage anyone to split forces the way you're aiming to encourage? ooo SNAP
caught There are no goons. The goons; 0.0 dream is over.
Progodlegend said the goal of N3 is to destroy Goonswarm Federation, but in reality NCdot is in Fountain due to the fact it is virtually the last place there is action. ~NC., Fountain 2013 |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
802
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 08:41:00 -
[297] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:How about an anchorable unit with a rather short reinforce timer? Whoever want to get out shoots it and people who want to keep the trap up can rep it. It has a reinforce timer to prevent blobbing it with all your force from being optimal. Both side are of course locked while it's in system and un-anchoring it require as much time as the reinforce timer to make sure the side using it cannot just bail out of it.
They can put the reinforced timer as short as 5 minutes if they want but at least a little bit more would be preferable so the trap is at least trapping people for some time. You can't install a new one in system for at least 1 hour after one has been removed to prevent trap spamming. The trap module also spawn a beacon so you don't have to look for it much. So.... I find a staging system, launch this, and nobody from there gets to join the fight? This encourages sending one guy to your enemy's staging system with one of these set to the longest possible RF timer. While they're stuck, you do whatever it is you need to do. 5 minutes is more than long enough to knock things down if you know you'll go unopposed. How does something that allows one guy to render a fleet irrelevant to a fight encourage anyone to split forces the way you're aiming to encourage?
What if you didn't put all your eggs in the same basket? What if you used a "firewall" of those ahead of your staging systems with scouts to counter potential attack like that? |
Pipa Porto
1424
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Posted - 2013.12.20 08:49:00 -
[298] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:What if you didn't put all your eggs in the same basket? What if you used a "firewall" of those ahead of your staging systems with scouts to counter potential attack like that?
What's this "firewall", and how does it stop your staging system(s)'s resident neutral/hostile eyes from decloaking and pressing the anchor button on this thing? EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
802
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 08:59:00 -
[299] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:What if you didn't put all your eggs in the same basket? What if you used a "firewall" of those ahead of your staging systems with scouts to counter potential attack like that? What's this "firewall", and how does it stop your staging system(s)'s resident neutral/hostile eyes from decloaking and pressing the anchor button on this thing?
The firewall would be a wall of system ahead of your where you deploy the units preventing new people from getting in. If you had neut/hostile in your staging, then you have the same defense as if it was a cyno alt. You deal with it or stage elsewhere. You could also form up early to force the deployment early or have at least part of your force out of system if the trap is sprung. |
Pipa Porto
1424
|
Posted - 2013.12.20 09:22:00 -
[300] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:The firewall would be a wall of system ahead of your where you deploy the units preventing new people from getting in. If you had neut/hostile in your staging, then you have the same defense as if it was a cyno alt. You deal with it or stage elsewhere. You could also form up early to force the deployment early or have at least part of your force out of system if the trap is sprung.
What's this firewall meant to do? Nobody's moving through these systems, unless they don't have a Titan available (so this is one way that this is a nerf to any possibility of new groups joining the party in any meaningful way).
Cyno alts, you can shoot what comes through. This thing is a magic "sit out the fight" button. There's a neutral/hostile set of eyes in any system that you choose as a staging system. It's part of the standard staging system upgrade package.
The timers are fixed. How does forming early change the fact that one side only has to spend one person to trap your fleet wherever? How does this in any way encourage splitting your fleets?
You have absolutely no idea how a sov war works, do you? EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
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