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Abbadon
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Posted - 2006.03.07 23:35:00 -
[31]
I think an easier way would be to find a dome headed alien and get him to snort some melange....job done .
Dancers plz. o/ --Jorauk *boogies*-eris *booty bounces* - Cortes |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.07 23:36:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Meridius If the cable is strong enough the gravitational field from the blackhole will pull it in, all of it. Bye bye ship
The whole point is you cut the cable when the asteroid is sucked in
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Ralus
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Posted - 2006.03.07 23:45:00 -
[33]
if you've got an inertial stabaliser (by which i assumed a device that can control the effects of inertia) then you don't need any of those big cables, black holes etc.., inertia is connected to momentum decrease the effect of inertia and inertial mass will decrease, so your ship will acclerate faster from the same aceleration force.
You decrease your inertia enough you'll can hit your 0.5c in a few secs using a firework straped to the back of your ship, its all a mater of relative mass.
ps. appologies for any horrible errors in that, last time i did physics at Uni was 2 years ago
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.07 23:48:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Ralus if you've got an inertial stabaliser (by which i assumed a device that can control the effects of inertia) then you don't need any of those big cables, black holes etc.., inertia is connected to momentum decrease the effect of inertia and inertial mass will decrease, so your ship will acclerate faster from the same aceleration force.
You decrease your inertia enough you'll can hit your 0.5c in a few secs using a firework straped to the back of your ship, its all a mater of relative mass.
ps. appologies for any horrible errors in that, last time i did physics at Uni was 2 years ago
But... that's cheating
I guess we'd have to have the ship be remote controlled then, as humans could not survive the acceleration without inertia dampeners
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Scorpyn
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Posted - 2006.03.08 00:09:00 -
[35]
Perhaps if we only considered the characteristics of the cable to begin with...
I suppose that it would have different dimensions in the different ends, but it would still be interesting to know approximately how much it would cost and what dimensions it would have - and if it's even possible to make it not snap just by trying to keep ahold of itself.
It would be a bummer if we came to the conclusion that we would have to use all iron on the moon or something for that one time project... _____________________________________ meep meep |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.08 00:20:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Scorpyn Perhaps if we only considered the characteristics of the cable to begin with...
I suppose that it would have different dimensions in the different ends, but it would still be interesting to know approximately how much it would cost and what dimensions it would have - and if it's even possible to make it not snap just by trying to keep ahold of itself.
It would be a bummer if we came to the conclusion that we would have to use all iron on the moon or something for that one time project...
It would probably be quite possible with a carbon nanotube cable of a few meters in diameter.
If it isn't, then you could simply use a larger black hole and start from farther away with a longer cable--it'll happen slower, and thus exert less tension on the cable.
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Ralus
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Posted - 2006.03.08 00:27:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Scorpyn Perhaps if we only considered the characteristics of the cable to begin with...
I suppose that it would have different dimensions in the different ends, but it would still be interesting to know approximately how much it would cost and what dimensions it would have - and if it's even possible to make it not snap just by trying to keep ahold of itself.
It would be a bummer if we came to the conclusion that we would have to use all iron on the moon or something for that one time project...
tbh with the sort of forces your dealing with it'll have to be woven carbon nanotubes otherwise you're looking at a steel cable with a diameter in tens of meters
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Ralus
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Posted - 2006.03.08 00:28:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Scorpyn Perhaps if we only considered the characteristics of the cable to begin with...
I suppose that it would have different dimensions in the different ends, but it would still be interesting to know approximately how much it would cost and what dimensions it would have - and if it's even possible to make it not snap just by trying to keep ahold of itself.
It would be a bummer if we came to the conclusion that we would have to use all iron on the moon or something for that one time project...
It would probably be quite possible with a carbon nanotube cable of a few meters in diameter.
If it isn't, then you could simply use a larger black hole and start from farther away with a longer cable--it'll happen slower, and thus exert less tension on the cable.
lol great minds think alike
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Yezah
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Posted - 2006.03.08 00:37:00 -
[39]
Would not work.
To keep the ship away from the black hole you would need thrust of a similar proportion as the pull from the black hole. So there could be gain but only similar to what is gained by a shuttle when it slingshots round the moon. I.e you would already need incredibly powerful engines for this to work, which kind of negates the point of it.
If we look at your diagram and the ships thrusters can produce 0.001c and you're being pulled towards the hole at 0.5c then even if you pointed the ship perpendicular to the pull from the hole you would have a trajectory 0.1146 degrees from directly into the blackhole, and you would sucked in then proceed to go on magical adventure to the land of singularity where there is fairies and pie and EVE 24/7 no downtime.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.08 01:05:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Yezah Would not work.
To keep the ship away from the black hole you would need thrust of a similar proportion as the pull from the black hole. So there could be gain but only similar to what is gained by a shuttle when it slingshots round the moon. I.e you would already need incredibly powerful engines for this to work, which kind of negates the point of it.
Read it again. The ship is FAR away from the hole, where it won't be pulled much. The acceleration is entirely in the X direction, but the ship has an initial Y velocity, which will keep it from getting too close to the hole. Its powerful, short-burn engines will add to the Y velocity during the X acceleration.
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Pwyle Kenobi
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Posted - 2006.03.08 04:21:00 -
[41]
I guess we can assume there's junk like asteroids already in "near" orbit of the selected BH and let's assume we've solved all the engineering issues with the strength of the cable and attaching it at either end (no breaks and no whip-back of any broken section).
How do we get our spaceship from Earth to near the 3 to 10 solar mass BH (eg. the closest one we know of is roughly 15,137 TRILLION kilometers away) to begin with (without FTL drives, folding space, worm-holes, etc)? Let's assume we find one closer and that we can get there using some reasonably conventional means (eg. perhaps with a generation ship fitted with ion drives or nuclear drives and a truck load of crazy peeps).
A stellar sized BH should have some angular momentum from the days when it was a star. Anyway, I'm assuming this one does. So why not stay outside the event horizon and steal some of that angular momentum with a gravitational slingshot? Keeping in mind that it is angular momentum and not gravity itself that provides the effect. The net effect of gravity itself is zero as the pull of gravity as the spaceship is inbound will be the same as that pulling the spaceship back as it is outbound.
However, the Ergosphere (produced if the BH is spinning) which is beyond the Schwarzschild radius of the BH also does something odd to surrounding space (causing matter to spin with the BH) and perhaps you'd have to keep your ship, cable and asteroid beyond the Ergosphere as well if you want to pull the Shikari Maneuver. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can explain the effect of the Ergosphere. To what extent would the Ergosphere modify the course of the asteroid and cable so that when they cross the event horizon they are no longer traveling on their initial vector? I guess that will depend on the mass of the asteroid and it's initial velocity?
BTW, would you attach motors to the asteroid to get it moving in the first place? Assuming you find the asteroid orbiting the general vicinity of the BH.
Back to the asteroid and the cable. Once they cross the event horizon they will cease to provide pull to the spaceship. So why not keep the mass of the spaceship limited to the ship itself (and not the ship plus cable plus asteroid) and stay outside the event horizon for a gravitational slingshot (from a BH with angular momentum).
However, the cable idea sounds good if: (#1) the BH has no angular momentum relative to where you want to travel; and (#2) the spaceship can generate sufficient thrust to push it onto a new vector away from the BH - your thrust would have to be enough to drag the mass of the cable for a time assuming the asteroid acts like a pivot point - I'm not sure if the effect of the Ergosphere might assist or hinder with (#2).
So, in conclusion ... my brain hurts and I wish I knew a hell of a lot more about BHs!
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Yezah
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Posted - 2006.03.08 11:40:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Yezah Would not work.
To keep the ship away from the black hole you would need thrust of a similar proportion as the pull from the black hole. So there could be gain but only similar to what is gained by a shuttle when it slingshots round the moon. I.e you would already need incredibly powerful engines for this to work, which kind of negates the point of it.
Read it again. The ship is FAR away from the hole, where it won't be pulled much. The acceleration is entirely in the X direction, but the ship has an initial Y velocity, which will keep it from getting too close to the hole. Its powerful, short-burn engines will add to the Y velocity during the X acceleration.
But it will be pulled much, by the asteroid-on-string. Which is the whole basis of your plan - to get a lot of pull.
Read my last bit, you will need a very much increased Y velocity to stop you going into the hole. With the ship's thrust of 0.001c you put on the diagram that is simply not enough to keep it away if the acceleration is pulling you to a speed of 0.5c.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.08 11:48:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Yezah
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Yezah Would not work.
To keep the ship away from the black hole you would need thrust of a similar proportion as the pull from the black hole. So there could be gain but only similar to what is gained by a shuttle when it slingshots round the moon. I.e you would already need incredibly powerful engines for this to work, which kind of negates the point of it.
Read it again. The ship is FAR away from the hole, where it won't be pulled much. The acceleration is entirely in the X direction, but the ship has an initial Y velocity, which will keep it from getting too close to the hole. Its powerful, short-burn engines will add to the Y velocity during the X acceleration.
But it will be pulled much, by the asteroid-on-string. Which is the whole basis of your plan - to get a lot of pull.
Read my last bit, you will need a very much increased Y velocity to stop you going into the hole. With the ship's thrust of 0.001c you put on the diagram that is simply not enough to keep it away if the acceleration is pulling you to a speed of 0.5c.
Lets do the math then.
Lets say you begin 10 million km from the hole to be safe, and with 0.01 c Y velocity. I raised this a bit because 0.001c is probably not enough. The attraction towards a 3 solar mass hole at this point would be about 4 meters per second squared.
Lets say the asteroid accelerates you to <0.5c,0.01c>. This would mean you would end up at closest approach about 200,000km from the hole, where the acceleration would be 10,000 meters per second squared. However, this acceleration would only last a fraction of a second, as you'd be going so fast.
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Grimwalius d'Antan
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Posted - 2006.03.08 13:10:00 -
[44]
I just had a very funny vision in my head. Everything goes to plan, the asteroid is attracted by the black hole and it is time to cut the cable. Since this cable has been designed to withstand the immense force required to stay intact this long, the crew realizes their box cutters isn't sharp enough to cut it =D
Sorry, just adding to these off topic, beside the point replies about "You can't make a cable that is strong enough blah blah blah I missed the point blah". Sorry.
Griefing is to ruin a friendly game, which Eve is not. |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2006.03.08 13:33:00 -
[45]
I love the whole McGuiver solution but I think it won't work.
First in order to do something as insane as this idea is you would have to be getting a considerable increase. So the power that the blackhole pulls you in is much bigger than the velocity so you would probably end up to close to the black hole and get sucked in.
This would work in a Hollywood movie though _______________ |
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.08 15:54:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Tuxford I love the whole McGuiver solution but I think it won't work.
First in order to do something as insane as this idea is you would have to be getting a considerable increase. So the power that the blackhole pulls you in is much bigger than the velocity so you would probably end up to close to the black hole and get sucked in.
This would work in a Hollywood movie though
Read the math above--it certainly could work
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Lanfear's Bane
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Posted - 2006.03.08 16:11:00 -
[47]
Blue Peter badges all round!
Lanfear's Bane. ___ {o.O} |)_(| -"-"- YA RLY Put what in your sig? -Oiri Yusko
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2006.03.08 16:24:00 -
[48]
I'm not saying that this is impossible but you can count me out for the first ride _______________ |
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Laocoon
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Posted - 2006.03.08 17:47:00 -
[49]
anyone thougt about the mass of a cable of some sort 0.001c long? That's quite a lot of mass... Then you'd acelerate slower and wouldn't go as fast...
(not a physicist so correct me if im wrong somewhere \o/) --------------------------------------------
Channels 'Bar Veto' (IC) & Public Channel 'Veto' for info. |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.08 17:57:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Laocoon anyone thougt about the mass of a cable of some sort 0.001c long? That's quite a lot of mass... Then you'd acelerate slower and wouldn't go as fast...
0.001c is a speed, not a length. The length is like 1 million kilometers.
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.03.08 17:59:00 -
[51]
Now I know where all the geeks hang out. ----------------
RecruitMe@NOINT! |
My grandfather
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Posted - 2006.03.08 19:16:00 -
[52]
The technique you are describing is actually the same as a gravitational slingshot, now used to increase the speed of spaceships. The only big difference is the asteroid and the black hole. The asteroid is a nice addition, but I doubt it will do much extra. I think the cable will break before it even comes close to providing enough energy. And not because of the event horizon, but simply because of the tensions that will arise from the difference in gravitational pull.
It would work, but you'd save yourself a lot of trouble without the roid
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.08 19:24:00 -
[53]
Originally by: My grandfather The technique you are describing is actually the same as a gravitational slingshot, now used to increase the speed of spaceships. The only big difference is the asteroid and the black hole. The asteroid is a nice addition, but I doubt it will do much extra. I think the cable will break before it even comes close to providing enough energy. And not because of the event horizon, but simply because of the tensions that will arise from the difference in gravitational pull.
It would work, but you'd save yourself a lot of trouble without the roid
Doesn't the gravitational slingshot take its energy from the orbital velocity of the target, not the gravitational energy?
Unless the black hole is orbiting very fast, you couldn't do the same with the slingshot, IIRC.
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oDDiTy V2
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Posted - 2006.03.08 19:50:00 -
[54]
Dunno if anyone has pointed this out but, 1 million kilometers... good luck finding a cable that long. Thats almost 25 times the circumference of the Earth, and the thickness of the cable you would have to have in order to withstand the forces acting on it by the black hole would have to be massive in diameter itself. Then we'd have to get that cable into space.
Essentially, before this plan could even come into fruition, you'd need space-stations capable of large scale production, and by the time we perfect THAT technology, I think we'll have figured out how to make our spaceships vroom vroom around the universe really fast.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.08 20:01:00 -
[55]
Originally by: oDDiTy V2 Dunno if anyone has pointed this out but, 1 million kilometers... good luck finding a cable that long. Thats almost 25 times the circumference of the Earth, and the thickness of the cable you would have to have in order to withstand the forces acting on it by the black hole would have to be massive in diameter itself. Then we'd have to get that cable into space.
I'd assume you'd build it in space. The entire volume of the cable would be minimal compared to the volume of even a tiny asteroid.
Originally by: oDDiTy V2
Essentially, before this plan could even come into fruition, you'd need space-stations capable of large scale production, and by the time we perfect THAT technology, I think we'll have figured out how to make our spaceships vroom vroom around the universe really fast.
Its quite possible that FTL travel is impossible/impractical.
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My grandfather
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Posted - 2006.03.08 20:01:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: My grandfather The technique you are describing is actually the same as a gravitational slingshot, now used to increase the speed of spaceships. The only big difference is the asteroid and the black hole. The asteroid is a nice addition, but I doubt it will do much extra. I think the cable will break before it even comes close to providing enough energy. And not because of the event horizon, but simply because of the tensions that will arise from the difference in gravitational pull.
It would work, but you'd save yourself a lot of trouble without the roid
Doesn't the gravitational slingshot take its energy from the orbital velocity of the target, not the gravitational energy?
Unless the black hole is orbiting very fast, you couldn't do the same with the slingshot, IIRC.
not really. The gravitational slingshot method now is by using the gravity to go in lower, and therefore faster orbit around the target, then activating your engines to get out of that orbit again. In total, you used the gravity to catapult you. It would also work with stationary objects and such, no problem.
One thing though: practically every black hole in existance rotates at an immense speed, so even if I'm wrong, it would still work
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oDDiTy V2
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Posted - 2006.03.08 20:34:00 -
[57]
Edited by: oDDiTy V2 on 08/03/2006 20:36:02
Originally by: Dark Shikari Its quite possible that FTL travel is impossible/impractical.
Nothing is impossible, we just haven't figured out how to do it yet. ;)
Go back to say the 1500's. If you told someone then that one day we'd have pictures that moved on a screen (TV), he'd tell you that was impossible, hell you'd probably get hung for being a witch or something. :P
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Vult
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Posted - 2006.03.08 21:00:00 -
[58]
I think the big picture that we're all missing here is how you would just "set" the asteroid in place attached to the cable without it...
a) getting sucked into the black hole b) getting the cable sucked into the black hole before it's attached to the roid and... c) pulling the ship prematurely towards the black hole before a or b occur.
Think about this (and I'm interested to hear DS's response)...
Put ship in place a far enough distance from black hole (BH for short) that it won't get sucked into BH, or at least fit it with reverse thrusters of some sort to hold it in place away from pull of BH. Now... attach cable to ship. Unravel cable towards BH and attach to asteroid that's already in place at a point where BH is already starting to pull the roid in.
........wait a sec... I think I just answered my own problem. If ship and roid are in the same place at a point where BH's gravity has no pull on either object, attach cable between roid and ship, then send roid toward BH. Aim ship at angle just enough away to send ship hurdling past BH once the cable is cut off of ship.
...but this creates another interesting issue. If the roid is going toward the BH and is pulling the ship towards BH, how do you get the ship to not follow the roid into the BH and instead have it travel in a direction past the BH?
...I'll have to build something here at my shop to test this... ----- I want my sig h4xx0r3d by Oveur! ...but I'll settle for any mod since Oveur can't h4x like the best of 'em... |
Minsc
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Posted - 2006.03.08 21:26:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 07/03/2006 23:36:35 (For you physics gurus).
How to accelerate a spaceship very fast to near-light speed without much exotic physics and without much energy..
Ingredients: (1) Stellar mass black hole (3-10 solar masses is reasonable, higher can't hurt though) (1) Large asteroid (1) Spaceship with inertia dampeners (1) Strong cable a few hundred thousand to a million kilometers long, strong enough to tug the spaceship.
Directions: 1. Aim the spaceship on a path above the black hole (a few thousand kilometers above at closest approach) at a high velocity, high enough that it won't nearly be sucked in. This doesn't need to be that fast at all. Have its starting position be about 1 million km away from the black hole. 2. Attach the asteroid with the cable to the front of the spaceship. 3. Place the asteroid a few thousand kilometers from the black hole, in line with the spaceship. 4. The asteroid will now be sucked into the hole and gain a vast amount of kinetic energy before it finally disintegrates near the event horizon. At this point, you cut the cable. The ship will probably near half light speed or even more. 5. The spaceship will of course be tugged at the same speed. It will use its thrusters to ensure that its trajectory stays well above the hole as it began, however, it will have gained an incredible amount of forward velocity.
That's all well and good, IF you believe in black holes. Which I don't.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.08 21:55:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 08/03/2006 21:56:06
Originally by: Vult ...but this creates another interesting issue. If the roid is going toward the BH and is pulling the ship towards BH, how do you get the ship to not follow the roid into the BH and instead have it travel in a direction past the BH?
You give it an initial velocity in the perpendicular direction.
Originally by: Minsc That's all well and good, IF you believe in black holes. Which I don't.
And I don't believe in gravity. But it exists anyways. I want to belieeevvvveeee!
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