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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.07 22:05:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 07/03/2006 22:06:13 (For you physics gurus).
How to accelerate a spaceship very fast to near-light speed without much exotic physics and without much energy..
Ingredients: (1) Stellar mass black hole (3-10 solar masses is reasonable, higher can't hurt though) (1) Large asteroid (1) Spaceship with inertia dampeners (1) Strong cable a few hundred thousand to a million kilometers long, strong enough to tug the spaceship.
Directions: 1. Aim the spaceship on a path above the black hole (a few thousand kilometers above at closest approach) at a high velocity, high enough that it won't nearly be sucked in. This doesn't need to be that fast at all. Have its starting position be about 1 million km away from the black hole. 2. Attach the asteroid with the cable to the front of the spaceship. 3. Place the asteroid a few thousand kilometers from the black hole, in line with the spaceship. 4. The asteroid will now be sucked into the hole and gain a vast amount of kinetic energy before it finally disintegrates near the event horizon. It will probably near half light speed or even more. 5. The spaceship will of course be tugged at the same speed. It will use its thrusters to ensure that its trajectory stays well above the hole as it began, however, it will have gained an incredible amount of forward velocity.
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.03.07 22:18:00 -
[2]
i think i have all those things stashed someowhere in my rooom. i'll give it a try later
sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault Stop spamming with "QFT" >:|. - Teblin
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.03.07 22:21:00 -
[3]
Sci-Fi? ----------------
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.07 22:23:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Sci-Fi?
No, the entire idea is that its using real physics. I want to know from a real physics guy whether it would work, or if there's something wrong with it
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.03.07 22:25:00 -
[5]
@jenny, your sig scares me
sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault Stop spamming with "QFT" >:|. - Teblin
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.03.07 22:32:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Sci-Fi?
No, the entire idea is that its using real physics. I want to know from a real physics guy whether it would work, or if there's something wrong with it
1. Cable breaks (dont think there is strong enough to resist tensile strength) when roid is pulled into the event horizon.
2. Basically the idea is to sling shot the spaceship? ----------------
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.03.07 22:33:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 07/03/2006 22:32:42
Originally by: HippoKing @jenny, your sig scares me
Well, I have to try to appreciate Sarmual's artwork. ----------------
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.07 22:36:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Sci-Fi?
No, the entire idea is that its using real physics. I want to know from a real physics guy whether it would work, or if there's something wrong with it
1. Cable breaks (dont think there is strong enough to resist tensile strength) when roid is pulled into the event horizon.
Thats exactly the point. It automatically will break AT the event horizon, because the bosons that carry the electromagnetic force between the atoms of the cable will not be able to cross the event horizon, and thus the cable if not already broken will always disintegrate at the event horizon. However, the whole point of this is that the asteroid and cable break up before hitting the horizon anyways. You still gain loads of energy.
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
2. Basically the idea is to sling shot the spaceship?
Yup.
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Abbadon
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Posted - 2006.03.07 22:37:00 -
[9]
I like your thinking DS, but....
I believe the gravitational shear on the craft will tear it apart, and if the thrusters were powerful enough to move the ship away from the blackhole I'm guessing they would be powerful enough to get the ship to near light speed velocities on their own.
plus...what Jenny said
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Dancers plz. o/ --Jorauk *boogies*-eris *booty bounces* - Cortes |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.07 22:39:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Abbadon I like your thinking DS, but....
I believe the gravitational shear on the craft will tear it apart, and if the thrusters were powerful enough to move the ship away from the blackhole I'm guessing they would be powerful enough to get the ship to near light speed velocities on their own.
Read it again. The craft NEVER gets close enough to the hole for the gravitation attraction to be an issue. It starts moving in a direction that would keep it away from the hole, and continues thrusting the whole time to make sure it stays well out of the area surrounding it. The slingshot is near the hole, but the cable keeps the ship away.
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RogueWing
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Posted - 2006.03.07 22:45:00 -
[11]
I would imagine that the strain on the cable (from the amount of acceleration) would cause it to snap where it connected at the ship (or at the asteroid) before the asteroid hit the event horizon.
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.03.07 22:47:00 -
[12]
I think the tensile vibrations will destroy the ship. But you have inertia dampeners so not sure what exactly it does. The inertia dampeners counter vibrations? ----------------
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.07 22:47:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 07/03/2006 22:48:05
Originally by: RogueWing I would imagine that the strain on the cable (from the amount of acceleration) would cause it to snap where it connected at the ship (or at the asteroid) before the asteroid hit the event horizon.
Well lets assume the cable is good enough to handle that
BTW here's a little diagram I drew in paint: diagram.
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.03.07 22:48:00 -
[14]
I prefer hyperspace journey. ----------------
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.07 22:49:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire I think the tensile vibrations will destroy the ship. But you have inertia dampeners so not sure what exactly it does. The inertia dampeners counter vibrations?
Isn't that the whole point
The Enterprise goes from 0 to 0.5c in a matter of minutes.
The real energy drain is in those engines
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Abbadon
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Posted - 2006.03.07 22:49:00 -
[16]
I see what you mean.
This LInky suggests something very similar (without the asteroid idea tho).
I wonder what relativistic effects would do to the ship tho. (time dilation, mass increase and length contraction) ?? .
Dancers plz. o/ --Jorauk *boogies*-eris *booty bounces* - Cortes |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.07 22:50:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Abbadon I see what you mean.
This LInky suggests something very similar (without the asteroid idea tho).
I wonder what relativistic effects would do to the ship tho. (time dilation, mass increase and length contraction) ??
Relativistic effects would be the least of your worries, especially as the ship hardly gets near the hole. You'd have more relativistic effects from your velocity.
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Abbadon
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Posted - 2006.03.07 22:52:00 -
[18]
Sorry that what I meant, at 0.5c the ship would probably have the mass of a titan, the dimensions of a pod and with the time dilation effect it would feel like the worst patch day ever .
Dancers plz. o/ --Jorauk *boogies*-eris *booty bounces* - Cortes |
Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.03.07 22:56:00 -
[19]
Mebbe a more philosophical question. If you can haul a cable to an asteroid to the black hole and wait for "surf up" so you can be sling shot around, I think you would be able to travel near FTL in the first place, isnt it? ----------------
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.07 22:58:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 07/03/2006 22:57:46
Originally by: Abbadon Sorry that what I meant, at 0.5c the ship would probably have the mass of a titan, the dimensions of a pod and with the time dilation effect it would feel like the worst patch day ever
Remember, from your perspective, you aren't moving, so you would experience none of those effects.
And at just 0.5C, the effect would be minimal--just 14% time dilation.
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Mebbe a more philosophical question. If you can haul a cable to an asteroid to the black hole and wait for "surf up" so you can be sling shot around, I think you would be able to travel near FTL in the first place, isnt it?
FTL travel may very well be impossible or impractical.
Moving an asteroid and making a big cable, on the other hand, is very easy by comparison.
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Abbadon
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Posted - 2006.03.07 23:03:00 -
[21]
True, from my perpective things would be peachy...I'm a little worried about the thrusters tho.
As the ship accelerates toward lightspeed its mass increases and the thrusters would have to be designed with that in mind.
So does that give us a catch 22 situation, make the thrusters powerful enough to manage the extra mass but these extra large thrusters would also increase in mass thus negating their extra power ....hmmmm...time for coffee :P .
Dancers plz. o/ --Jorauk *boogies*-eris *booty bounces* - Cortes |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.07 23:05:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Abbadon True, from my perpective things would be peachy...I'm a little worried about the thrusters tho.
As the ship accelerates toward lightspeed its mass increases and the thrusters would have to be designed with that in mind.
No they wouldn't--the thrusters accelerate along with the spaceship, and are not moving relative to the rest of the spaceship.
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Abbadon
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Posted - 2006.03.07 23:07:00 -
[23]
The ship would still increase in mass though, meaning the thrusters have more and more mass to move? .
Dancers plz. o/ --Jorauk *boogies*-eris *booty bounces* - Cortes |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.07 23:11:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Abbadon The ship would still increase in mass though, meaning the thrusters have more and more mass to move?
Does that make a difference? It would simply mean the ship would accelerate slower--one wouldn't need "bigger thrusters."
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Abbadon
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Posted - 2006.03.07 23:15:00 -
[25]
If you were relying on the thrusters to keep you out of the black hole, the extra mass would have to be factored in.
Any idea what the added mass would be at 0.5c ? .
Dancers plz. o/ --Jorauk *boogies*-eris *booty bounces* - Cortes |
Abbadon
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Posted - 2006.03.07 23:22:00 -
[26]
Ahh found it....the effects are quite small at 0.5c
if stationary mass = 10 mass @ 0.5c = 11.5 mass @ 0.99c = 70.89 mass @ 0.9999c = 707.12
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Dancers plz. o/ --Jorauk *boogies*-eris *booty bounces* - Cortes |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.07 23:23:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Abbadon Ahh found it....the effects are quite small at 0.5c
if stationary mass = 10 mass @ 0.5c = 11.5 mass @ 0.99c = 70.89 mass @ 0.9999c = 707.12
Meh those aren't that accurate.
Mass at 0.5c = 11.1803399
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Abbadon
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Posted - 2006.03.07 23:27:00 -
[28]
LOL splitter!
Do you, by any chance, create CCPs equations for stacking .
Dancers plz. o/ --Jorauk *boogies*-eris *booty bounces* - Cortes |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.07 23:30:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Abbadon LOL splitter!
Do you, by any chance, create CCPs equations for stacking
No, I didn't, or they'd be simpler.
The Lorentz factor, gamma, used for all special relativistic effects, is merely sqrt(1-v^2/c^2).
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Meridius
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Posted - 2006.03.07 23:33:00 -
[30]
If the cable is strong enough the gravitational field from the blackhole will pull it in, all of it. Bye bye ship _ __
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Abbadon
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Posted - 2006.03.07 23:35:00 -
[31]
I think an easier way would be to find a dome headed alien and get him to snort some melange....job done .
Dancers plz. o/ --Jorauk *boogies*-eris *booty bounces* - Cortes |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.07 23:36:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Meridius If the cable is strong enough the gravitational field from the blackhole will pull it in, all of it. Bye bye ship
The whole point is you cut the cable when the asteroid is sucked in
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Ralus
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Posted - 2006.03.07 23:45:00 -
[33]
if you've got an inertial stabaliser (by which i assumed a device that can control the effects of inertia) then you don't need any of those big cables, black holes etc.., inertia is connected to momentum decrease the effect of inertia and inertial mass will decrease, so your ship will acclerate faster from the same aceleration force.
You decrease your inertia enough you'll can hit your 0.5c in a few secs using a firework straped to the back of your ship, its all a mater of relative mass.
ps. appologies for any horrible errors in that, last time i did physics at Uni was 2 years ago
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.07 23:48:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Ralus if you've got an inertial stabaliser (by which i assumed a device that can control the effects of inertia) then you don't need any of those big cables, black holes etc.., inertia is connected to momentum decrease the effect of inertia and inertial mass will decrease, so your ship will acclerate faster from the same aceleration force.
You decrease your inertia enough you'll can hit your 0.5c in a few secs using a firework straped to the back of your ship, its all a mater of relative mass.
ps. appologies for any horrible errors in that, last time i did physics at Uni was 2 years ago
But... that's cheating
I guess we'd have to have the ship be remote controlled then, as humans could not survive the acceleration without inertia dampeners
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Scorpyn
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Posted - 2006.03.08 00:09:00 -
[35]
Perhaps if we only considered the characteristics of the cable to begin with...
I suppose that it would have different dimensions in the different ends, but it would still be interesting to know approximately how much it would cost and what dimensions it would have - and if it's even possible to make it not snap just by trying to keep ahold of itself.
It would be a bummer if we came to the conclusion that we would have to use all iron on the moon or something for that one time project... _____________________________________ meep meep |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.08 00:20:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Scorpyn Perhaps if we only considered the characteristics of the cable to begin with...
I suppose that it would have different dimensions in the different ends, but it would still be interesting to know approximately how much it would cost and what dimensions it would have - and if it's even possible to make it not snap just by trying to keep ahold of itself.
It would be a bummer if we came to the conclusion that we would have to use all iron on the moon or something for that one time project...
It would probably be quite possible with a carbon nanotube cable of a few meters in diameter.
If it isn't, then you could simply use a larger black hole and start from farther away with a longer cable--it'll happen slower, and thus exert less tension on the cable.
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Ralus
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Posted - 2006.03.08 00:27:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Scorpyn Perhaps if we only considered the characteristics of the cable to begin with...
I suppose that it would have different dimensions in the different ends, but it would still be interesting to know approximately how much it would cost and what dimensions it would have - and if it's even possible to make it not snap just by trying to keep ahold of itself.
It would be a bummer if we came to the conclusion that we would have to use all iron on the moon or something for that one time project...
tbh with the sort of forces your dealing with it'll have to be woven carbon nanotubes otherwise you're looking at a steel cable with a diameter in tens of meters
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Ralus
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Posted - 2006.03.08 00:28:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Scorpyn Perhaps if we only considered the characteristics of the cable to begin with...
I suppose that it would have different dimensions in the different ends, but it would still be interesting to know approximately how much it would cost and what dimensions it would have - and if it's even possible to make it not snap just by trying to keep ahold of itself.
It would be a bummer if we came to the conclusion that we would have to use all iron on the moon or something for that one time project...
It would probably be quite possible with a carbon nanotube cable of a few meters in diameter.
If it isn't, then you could simply use a larger black hole and start from farther away with a longer cable--it'll happen slower, and thus exert less tension on the cable.
lol great minds think alike
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Yezah
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Posted - 2006.03.08 00:37:00 -
[39]
Would not work.
To keep the ship away from the black hole you would need thrust of a similar proportion as the pull from the black hole. So there could be gain but only similar to what is gained by a shuttle when it slingshots round the moon. I.e you would already need incredibly powerful engines for this to work, which kind of negates the point of it.
If we look at your diagram and the ships thrusters can produce 0.001c and you're being pulled towards the hole at 0.5c then even if you pointed the ship perpendicular to the pull from the hole you would have a trajectory 0.1146 degrees from directly into the blackhole, and you would sucked in then proceed to go on magical adventure to the land of singularity where there is fairies and pie and EVE 24/7 no downtime.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.08 01:05:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Yezah Would not work.
To keep the ship away from the black hole you would need thrust of a similar proportion as the pull from the black hole. So there could be gain but only similar to what is gained by a shuttle when it slingshots round the moon. I.e you would already need incredibly powerful engines for this to work, which kind of negates the point of it.
Read it again. The ship is FAR away from the hole, where it won't be pulled much. The acceleration is entirely in the X direction, but the ship has an initial Y velocity, which will keep it from getting too close to the hole. Its powerful, short-burn engines will add to the Y velocity during the X acceleration.
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Pwyle Kenobi
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Posted - 2006.03.08 04:21:00 -
[41]
I guess we can assume there's junk like asteroids already in "near" orbit of the selected BH and let's assume we've solved all the engineering issues with the strength of the cable and attaching it at either end (no breaks and no whip-back of any broken section).
How do we get our spaceship from Earth to near the 3 to 10 solar mass BH (eg. the closest one we know of is roughly 15,137 TRILLION kilometers away) to begin with (without FTL drives, folding space, worm-holes, etc)? Let's assume we find one closer and that we can get there using some reasonably conventional means (eg. perhaps with a generation ship fitted with ion drives or nuclear drives and a truck load of crazy peeps).
A stellar sized BH should have some angular momentum from the days when it was a star. Anyway, I'm assuming this one does. So why not stay outside the event horizon and steal some of that angular momentum with a gravitational slingshot? Keeping in mind that it is angular momentum and not gravity itself that provides the effect. The net effect of gravity itself is zero as the pull of gravity as the spaceship is inbound will be the same as that pulling the spaceship back as it is outbound.
However, the Ergosphere (produced if the BH is spinning) which is beyond the Schwarzschild radius of the BH also does something odd to surrounding space (causing matter to spin with the BH) and perhaps you'd have to keep your ship, cable and asteroid beyond the Ergosphere as well if you want to pull the Shikari Maneuver. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can explain the effect of the Ergosphere. To what extent would the Ergosphere modify the course of the asteroid and cable so that when they cross the event horizon they are no longer traveling on their initial vector? I guess that will depend on the mass of the asteroid and it's initial velocity?
BTW, would you attach motors to the asteroid to get it moving in the first place? Assuming you find the asteroid orbiting the general vicinity of the BH.
Back to the asteroid and the cable. Once they cross the event horizon they will cease to provide pull to the spaceship. So why not keep the mass of the spaceship limited to the ship itself (and not the ship plus cable plus asteroid) and stay outside the event horizon for a gravitational slingshot (from a BH with angular momentum).
However, the cable idea sounds good if: (#1) the BH has no angular momentum relative to where you want to travel; and (#2) the spaceship can generate sufficient thrust to push it onto a new vector away from the BH - your thrust would have to be enough to drag the mass of the cable for a time assuming the asteroid acts like a pivot point - I'm not sure if the effect of the Ergosphere might assist or hinder with (#2).
So, in conclusion ... my brain hurts and I wish I knew a hell of a lot more about BHs!
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Yezah
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Posted - 2006.03.08 11:40:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Yezah Would not work.
To keep the ship away from the black hole you would need thrust of a similar proportion as the pull from the black hole. So there could be gain but only similar to what is gained by a shuttle when it slingshots round the moon. I.e you would already need incredibly powerful engines for this to work, which kind of negates the point of it.
Read it again. The ship is FAR away from the hole, where it won't be pulled much. The acceleration is entirely in the X direction, but the ship has an initial Y velocity, which will keep it from getting too close to the hole. Its powerful, short-burn engines will add to the Y velocity during the X acceleration.
But it will be pulled much, by the asteroid-on-string. Which is the whole basis of your plan - to get a lot of pull.
Read my last bit, you will need a very much increased Y velocity to stop you going into the hole. With the ship's thrust of 0.001c you put on the diagram that is simply not enough to keep it away if the acceleration is pulling you to a speed of 0.5c.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.08 11:48:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Yezah
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Yezah Would not work.
To keep the ship away from the black hole you would need thrust of a similar proportion as the pull from the black hole. So there could be gain but only similar to what is gained by a shuttle when it slingshots round the moon. I.e you would already need incredibly powerful engines for this to work, which kind of negates the point of it.
Read it again. The ship is FAR away from the hole, where it won't be pulled much. The acceleration is entirely in the X direction, but the ship has an initial Y velocity, which will keep it from getting too close to the hole. Its powerful, short-burn engines will add to the Y velocity during the X acceleration.
But it will be pulled much, by the asteroid-on-string. Which is the whole basis of your plan - to get a lot of pull.
Read my last bit, you will need a very much increased Y velocity to stop you going into the hole. With the ship's thrust of 0.001c you put on the diagram that is simply not enough to keep it away if the acceleration is pulling you to a speed of 0.5c.
Lets do the math then.
Lets say you begin 10 million km from the hole to be safe, and with 0.01 c Y velocity. I raised this a bit because 0.001c is probably not enough. The attraction towards a 3 solar mass hole at this point would be about 4 meters per second squared.
Lets say the asteroid accelerates you to <0.5c,0.01c>. This would mean you would end up at closest approach about 200,000km from the hole, where the acceleration would be 10,000 meters per second squared. However, this acceleration would only last a fraction of a second, as you'd be going so fast.
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Grimwalius d'Antan
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Posted - 2006.03.08 13:10:00 -
[44]
I just had a very funny vision in my head. Everything goes to plan, the asteroid is attracted by the black hole and it is time to cut the cable. Since this cable has been designed to withstand the immense force required to stay intact this long, the crew realizes their box cutters isn't sharp enough to cut it =D
Sorry, just adding to these off topic, beside the point replies about "You can't make a cable that is strong enough blah blah blah I missed the point blah". Sorry.
Griefing is to ruin a friendly game, which Eve is not. |
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2006.03.08 13:33:00 -
[45]
I love the whole McGuiver solution but I think it won't work.
First in order to do something as insane as this idea is you would have to be getting a considerable increase. So the power that the blackhole pulls you in is much bigger than the velocity so you would probably end up to close to the black hole and get sucked in.
This would work in a Hollywood movie though _______________ |
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.08 15:54:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Tuxford I love the whole McGuiver solution but I think it won't work.
First in order to do something as insane as this idea is you would have to be getting a considerable increase. So the power that the blackhole pulls you in is much bigger than the velocity so you would probably end up to close to the black hole and get sucked in.
This would work in a Hollywood movie though
Read the math above--it certainly could work
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Lanfear's Bane
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Posted - 2006.03.08 16:11:00 -
[47]
Blue Peter badges all round!
Lanfear's Bane. ___ {o.O} |)_(| -"-"- YA RLY Put what in your sig? -Oiri Yusko
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Tuxford
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Posted - 2006.03.08 16:24:00 -
[48]
I'm not saying that this is impossible but you can count me out for the first ride _______________ |
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Laocoon
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Posted - 2006.03.08 17:47:00 -
[49]
anyone thougt about the mass of a cable of some sort 0.001c long? That's quite a lot of mass... Then you'd acelerate slower and wouldn't go as fast...
(not a physicist so correct me if im wrong somewhere \o/) --------------------------------------------
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.08 17:57:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Laocoon anyone thougt about the mass of a cable of some sort 0.001c long? That's quite a lot of mass... Then you'd acelerate slower and wouldn't go as fast...
0.001c is a speed, not a length. The length is like 1 million kilometers.
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.03.08 17:59:00 -
[51]
Now I know where all the geeks hang out. ----------------
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My grandfather
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Posted - 2006.03.08 19:16:00 -
[52]
The technique you are describing is actually the same as a gravitational slingshot, now used to increase the speed of spaceships. The only big difference is the asteroid and the black hole. The asteroid is a nice addition, but I doubt it will do much extra. I think the cable will break before it even comes close to providing enough energy. And not because of the event horizon, but simply because of the tensions that will arise from the difference in gravitational pull.
It would work, but you'd save yourself a lot of trouble without the roid
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.08 19:24:00 -
[53]
Originally by: My grandfather The technique you are describing is actually the same as a gravitational slingshot, now used to increase the speed of spaceships. The only big difference is the asteroid and the black hole. The asteroid is a nice addition, but I doubt it will do much extra. I think the cable will break before it even comes close to providing enough energy. And not because of the event horizon, but simply because of the tensions that will arise from the difference in gravitational pull.
It would work, but you'd save yourself a lot of trouble without the roid
Doesn't the gravitational slingshot take its energy from the orbital velocity of the target, not the gravitational energy?
Unless the black hole is orbiting very fast, you couldn't do the same with the slingshot, IIRC.
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oDDiTy V2
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Posted - 2006.03.08 19:50:00 -
[54]
Dunno if anyone has pointed this out but, 1 million kilometers... good luck finding a cable that long. Thats almost 25 times the circumference of the Earth, and the thickness of the cable you would have to have in order to withstand the forces acting on it by the black hole would have to be massive in diameter itself. Then we'd have to get that cable into space.
Essentially, before this plan could even come into fruition, you'd need space-stations capable of large scale production, and by the time we perfect THAT technology, I think we'll have figured out how to make our spaceships vroom vroom around the universe really fast.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.08 20:01:00 -
[55]
Originally by: oDDiTy V2 Dunno if anyone has pointed this out but, 1 million kilometers... good luck finding a cable that long. Thats almost 25 times the circumference of the Earth, and the thickness of the cable you would have to have in order to withstand the forces acting on it by the black hole would have to be massive in diameter itself. Then we'd have to get that cable into space.
I'd assume you'd build it in space. The entire volume of the cable would be minimal compared to the volume of even a tiny asteroid.
Originally by: oDDiTy V2
Essentially, before this plan could even come into fruition, you'd need space-stations capable of large scale production, and by the time we perfect THAT technology, I think we'll have figured out how to make our spaceships vroom vroom around the universe really fast.
Its quite possible that FTL travel is impossible/impractical.
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My grandfather
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Posted - 2006.03.08 20:01:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: My grandfather The technique you are describing is actually the same as a gravitational slingshot, now used to increase the speed of spaceships. The only big difference is the asteroid and the black hole. The asteroid is a nice addition, but I doubt it will do much extra. I think the cable will break before it even comes close to providing enough energy. And not because of the event horizon, but simply because of the tensions that will arise from the difference in gravitational pull.
It would work, but you'd save yourself a lot of trouble without the roid
Doesn't the gravitational slingshot take its energy from the orbital velocity of the target, not the gravitational energy?
Unless the black hole is orbiting very fast, you couldn't do the same with the slingshot, IIRC.
not really. The gravitational slingshot method now is by using the gravity to go in lower, and therefore faster orbit around the target, then activating your engines to get out of that orbit again. In total, you used the gravity to catapult you. It would also work with stationary objects and such, no problem.
One thing though: practically every black hole in existance rotates at an immense speed, so even if I'm wrong, it would still work
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oDDiTy V2
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Posted - 2006.03.08 20:34:00 -
[57]
Edited by: oDDiTy V2 on 08/03/2006 20:36:02
Originally by: Dark Shikari Its quite possible that FTL travel is impossible/impractical.
Nothing is impossible, we just haven't figured out how to do it yet. ;)
Go back to say the 1500's. If you told someone then that one day we'd have pictures that moved on a screen (TV), he'd tell you that was impossible, hell you'd probably get hung for being a witch or something. :P
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Vult
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Posted - 2006.03.08 21:00:00 -
[58]
I think the big picture that we're all missing here is how you would just "set" the asteroid in place attached to the cable without it...
a) getting sucked into the black hole b) getting the cable sucked into the black hole before it's attached to the roid and... c) pulling the ship prematurely towards the black hole before a or b occur.
Think about this (and I'm interested to hear DS's response)...
Put ship in place a far enough distance from black hole (BH for short) that it won't get sucked into BH, or at least fit it with reverse thrusters of some sort to hold it in place away from pull of BH. Now... attach cable to ship. Unravel cable towards BH and attach to asteroid that's already in place at a point where BH is already starting to pull the roid in.
........wait a sec... I think I just answered my own problem. If ship and roid are in the same place at a point where BH's gravity has no pull on either object, attach cable between roid and ship, then send roid toward BH. Aim ship at angle just enough away to send ship hurdling past BH once the cable is cut off of ship.
...but this creates another interesting issue. If the roid is going toward the BH and is pulling the ship towards BH, how do you get the ship to not follow the roid into the BH and instead have it travel in a direction past the BH?
...I'll have to build something here at my shop to test this... ----- I want my sig h4xx0r3d by Oveur! ...but I'll settle for any mod since Oveur can't h4x like the best of 'em... |
Minsc
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Posted - 2006.03.08 21:26:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 07/03/2006 23:36:35 (For you physics gurus).
How to accelerate a spaceship very fast to near-light speed without much exotic physics and without much energy..
Ingredients: (1) Stellar mass black hole (3-10 solar masses is reasonable, higher can't hurt though) (1) Large asteroid (1) Spaceship with inertia dampeners (1) Strong cable a few hundred thousand to a million kilometers long, strong enough to tug the spaceship.
Directions: 1. Aim the spaceship on a path above the black hole (a few thousand kilometers above at closest approach) at a high velocity, high enough that it won't nearly be sucked in. This doesn't need to be that fast at all. Have its starting position be about 1 million km away from the black hole. 2. Attach the asteroid with the cable to the front of the spaceship. 3. Place the asteroid a few thousand kilometers from the black hole, in line with the spaceship. 4. The asteroid will now be sucked into the hole and gain a vast amount of kinetic energy before it finally disintegrates near the event horizon. At this point, you cut the cable. The ship will probably near half light speed or even more. 5. The spaceship will of course be tugged at the same speed. It will use its thrusters to ensure that its trajectory stays well above the hole as it began, however, it will have gained an incredible amount of forward velocity.
That's all well and good, IF you believe in black holes. Which I don't.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.08 21:55:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 08/03/2006 21:56:06
Originally by: Vult ...but this creates another interesting issue. If the roid is going toward the BH and is pulling the ship towards BH, how do you get the ship to not follow the roid into the BH and instead have it travel in a direction past the BH?
You give it an initial velocity in the perpendicular direction.
Originally by: Minsc That's all well and good, IF you believe in black holes. Which I don't.
And I don't believe in gravity. But it exists anyways. I want to belieeevvvveeee!
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Vult
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Posted - 2006.03.08 22:44:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 08/03/2006 21:56:06
Originally by: Vult ...but this creates another interesting issue. If the roid is going toward the BH and is pulling the ship towards BH, how do you get the ship to not follow the roid into the BH and instead have it travel in a direction past the BH?
You give it an initial velocity in the perpendicular direction.
Good call. That would create an arc and you would cut the cable at the highest velocity and angle, which if done right, would solve the problem of the ship getting sucked into the black hole when you cut the cable.
Damn we're nerdy. ----- I want my sig h4xx0r3d by Oveur! ...but I'll settle for any mod since Oveur can't h4x like the best of 'em... |
oDDiTy V2
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Posted - 2006.03.08 22:48:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Minsc That's all well and good, IF you believe in black holes. Which I don't.
And I don't believe in gravity. But it exists anyways. I want to belieeevvvveeee!
I believed in Santa Claus.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.08 22:58:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Vult
Damn we're nerdy.
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Yezah
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Posted - 2006.03.08 23:45:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Lets say the asteroid accelerates you to <0.5c,0.01c>. This would mean you would end up at closest approach about 200,000km from the hole, where the acceleration would be 10,000 meters per second squared. However, this acceleration would only last a fraction of a second, as you'd be going so fast.
That depends on how wide the black hole is (if that can even be quantified?) and I haven't the foggiest.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.08 23:46:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Yezah
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Lets say the asteroid accelerates you to <0.5c,0.01c>. This would mean you would end up at closest approach about 200,000km from the hole, where the acceleration would be 10,000 meters per second squared. However, this acceleration would only last a fraction of a second, as you'd be going so fast.
That depends on how wide the black hole is (if that can even be quantified?) and I haven't the foggiest.
No, it depends soley on its mass and your distance from it.
Newton's law of gravitation: Acceleration = GM/r^2.
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Yezah
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Posted - 2006.03.09 00:04:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Yezah on 09/03/2006 00:05:00 Edited by: Yezah on 09/03/2006 00:04:10
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Yezah
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Lets say the asteroid accelerates you to <0.5c,0.01c>. This would mean you would end up at closest approach about 200,000km from the hole, where the acceleration would be 10,000 meters per second squared. However, this acceleration would only last a fraction of a second, as you'd be going so fast.
That depends on how wide the black hole is (if that can even be quantified?) and I haven't the foggiest.
No, it depends soley on its mass and your distance from it.
Newton's law of gravitation: Acceleration = GM/r^2.
Oh yeah, nvm. However I'm still not sure about gravity coming from black hole, something just makes me think it wouldn't be normal.
Well assuming that it's normal gravity the total gain of momentum of the spaceship (above it's thrusters) is equal to the momentum gained by the asteroid before it hits the hole?
So you just need as big a roid as possible I guess.
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Laocoon
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Posted - 2006.03.09 16:52:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Laocoon on 09/03/2006 16:51:48 Okay i got confused between C and athe symbol for something else but nvm. Okay, a cable one million kilometers long, would be like 785,398,163 m3 of cable. That's still a lot of cable.
Anyway, I was going on to say that 1million kms form a black hole is not very far.... you'd need a damn lot of force to create any real transversal (? bleh i forget the word) motion. Also, imagine it like this though... If you have a rubber sheet, and pull on a section of it so it curves in... then put a car or something with a sail on it and roll it towards the dent whilst blowing it 'away' with a fan, then it woouldn't be able to escape because of the energy loss...
Ok i just realised that's hard to explain. So i'll draw a picture. Maybe The 1st picture is what is proposed. The 2nd is what i think would happen. --------------------------------------------
Channels 'Bar Veto' (IC) & Public Channel 'Veto' for info. |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.09 17:16:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Laocoon Edited by: Laocoon on 09/03/2006 16:51:48 Okay i got confused between C and athe symbol for something else but nvm. Okay, a cable one million kilometers long, would be like 785,398,163 m3 of cable. That's still a lot of cable.
Anyway, I was going on to say that 1million kms form a black hole is not very far.... you'd need a damn lot of force to create any real transversal (? bleh i forget the word) motion. Also, imagine it like this though... If you have a rubber sheet, and pull on a section of it so it curves in... then put a car or something with a sail on it and roll it towards the dent whilst blowing it 'away' with a fan, then it woouldn't be able to escape because of the energy loss...
Ok i just realised that's hard to explain. So i'll draw a picture. Maybe The 1st picture is what is proposed. The 2nd is what i think would happen.
A black hole has a radius of say 10km. We're stayign 100,000 radii away here. The force at that distance is minimal.
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Xrak
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Posted - 2006.03.09 18:46:00 -
[69]
How close is the nearest Black hole, and how are ya gonna get there?
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My grandfather
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Posted - 2006.03.09 18:57:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Laocoon Edited by: Laocoon on 09/03/2006 16:51:48 Okay i got confused between C and athe symbol for something else but nvm. Okay, a cable one million kilometers long, would be like 785,398,163 m3 of cable. That's still a lot of cable.
Anyway, I was going on to say that 1million kms form a black hole is not very far.... you'd need a damn lot of force to create any real transversal (? bleh i forget the word) motion. Also, imagine it like this though... If you have a rubber sheet, and pull on a section of it so it curves in... then put a car or something with a sail on it and roll it towards the dent whilst blowing it 'away' with a fan, then it woouldn't be able to escape because of the energy loss...
Ok i just realised that's hard to explain. So i'll draw a picture. Maybe The 1st picture is what is proposed. The 2nd is what i think would happen.
A black hole has a radius of say 10km. We're stayign 100,000 radii away here. The force at that distance is minimal.
well a black hole with a radius of 10 km can't exist, because it doesn't have enough mass then. A normal black hole is about 1/3 to 1/2 the size of the earth. And the masses involved make sure that even at 100.000 radii away, you'll still have _a lot_ of force to cope with.
The overal idea would work, but not at that distance. You'd need a cable more like the radius of the solar system to make it work. And that would make the mass involved a bit too large aye?
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Meridius
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Posted - 2006.03.09 19:22:00 -
[71]
Originally by: My grandfather
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Laocoon Edited by: Laocoon on 09/03/2006 16:51:48 Okay i got confused between C and athe symbol for something else but nvm. Okay, a cable one million kilometers long, would be like 785,398,163 m3 of cable. That's still a lot of cable.
Anyway, I was going on to say that 1million kms form a black hole is not very far.... you'd need a damn lot of force to create any real transversal (? bleh i forget the word) motion. Also, imagine it like this though... If you have a rubber sheet, and pull on a section of it so it curves in... then put a car or something with a sail on it and roll it towards the dent whilst blowing it 'away' with a fan, then it woouldn't be able to escape because of the energy loss...
Ok i just realised that's hard to explain. So i'll draw a picture. Maybe The 1st picture is what is proposed. The 2nd is what i think would happen.
A black hole has a radius of say 10km. We're stayign 100,000 radii away here. The force at that distance is minimal.
well a black hole with a radius of 10 km can't exist, because it doesn't have enough mass then. A normal black hole is about 1/3 to 1/2 the size of the earth. And the masses involved make sure that even at 100.000 radii away, you'll still have _a lot_ of force to cope with.
The overal idea would work, but not at that distance. You'd need a cable more like the radius of the solar system to make it work. And that would make the mass involved a bit too large aye?
Most blackholes have a radius of around 30km, not nearly 1/2 the size of earth. _ __
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Neon Genesis
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Posted - 2006.03.09 20:42:00 -
[72]
Sounds a bit like you need to leave the house and have a drink.
There, i just contributed nothing to your thread |
My grandfather
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Posted - 2006.03.09 21:06:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: My grandfather
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Laocoon Edited by: Laocoon on 09/03/2006 16:51:48 Okay i got confused between C and athe symbol for something else but nvm. Okay, a cable one million kilometers long, would be like 785,398,163 m3 of cable. That's still a lot of cable.
Anyway, I was going on to say that 1million kms form a black hole is not very far.... you'd need a damn lot of force to create any real transversal (? bleh i forget the word) motion. Also, imagine it like this though... If you have a rubber sheet, and pull on a section of it so it curves in... then put a car or something with a sail on it and roll it towards the dent whilst blowing it 'away' with a fan, then it woouldn't be able to escape because of the energy loss...
Ok i just realised that's hard to explain. So i'll draw a picture. Maybe The 1st picture is what is proposed. The 2nd is what i think would happen.
A black hole has a radius of say 10km. We're stayign 100,000 radii away here. The force at that distance is minimal.
well a black hole with a radius of 10 km can't exist, because it doesn't have enough mass then. A normal black hole is about 1/3 to 1/2 the size of the earth. And the masses involved make sure that even at 100.000 radii away, you'll still have _a lot_ of force to cope with.
The overal idea would work, but not at that distance. You'd need a cable more like the radius of the solar system to make it work. And that would make the mass involved a bit too large aye?
Most blackholes have a radius of around 30km, not nearly 1/2 the size of earth.
Oops, messed up my scales a bit... It is indeed around 30 km... /me bangs head on table...
It still holds though. The gravities associated with black holes are huuuuge. You'd need a couple of tens of millions of kilometres of cable to stay safe a bit. More like a couple of AU if u really want to be safe.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.09 22:06:00 -
[74]
Originally by: My grandfather
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: My grandfather
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Laocoon Edited by: Laocoon on 09/03/2006 16:51:48 Okay i got confused between C and athe symbol for something else but nvm. Okay, a cable one million kilometers long, would be like 785,398,163 m3 of cable. That's still a lot of cable.
Anyway, I was going on to say that 1million kms form a black hole is not very far.... you'd need a damn lot of force to create any real transversal (? bleh i forget the word) motion. Also, imagine it like this though... If you have a rubber sheet, and pull on a section of it so it curves in... then put a car or something with a sail on it and roll it towards the dent whilst blowing it 'away' with a fan, then it woouldn't be able to escape because of the energy loss...
Ok i just realised that's hard to explain. So i'll draw a picture. Maybe The 1st picture is what is proposed. The 2nd is what i think would happen.
A black hole has a radius of say 10km. We're stayign 100,000 radii away here. The force at that distance is minimal.
well a black hole with a radius of 10 km can't exist, because it doesn't have enough mass then. A normal black hole is about 1/3 to 1/2 the size of the earth. And the masses involved make sure that even at 100.000 radii away, you'll still have _a lot_ of force to cope with.
The overal idea would work, but not at that distance. You'd need a cable more like the radius of the solar system to make it work. And that would make the mass involved a bit too large aye?
Most blackholes have a radius of around 30km, not nearly 1/2 the size of earth.
Oops, messed up my scales a bit... It is indeed around 30 km... /me bangs head on table...
It still holds though. The gravities associated with black holes are huuuuge. You'd need a couple of tens of millions of kilometres of cable to stay safe a bit. More like a couple of AU if u really want to be safe.
Not true at all. Black holes abide by Newton's laws of motion just as much as any other object.
A black hole with the mass of the sun would have no stronger a gravitational field than the sun did. And a black hole with 5 times the mass of the sun would have a field 5 times as strong as that of the sun, and no more.
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ReaperOfSly
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Posted - 2006.03.10 01:46:00 -
[75]
So assuming it all works out fine and dandy, how are you going to STOP the ship when it reaches its destination?
Now, since you'll never be able to reach a black hole at STL speeds, you'll prolly have to manufacture one locally. I'm not even going to speculate how you're going to be able to do that. In fact, if you have that much energy at your disposal, you might aswell put it into something more useful like figuring out how bunch the fabric of spacetime together and knocking together a few wormholes. I imagine it will involve lasers...
But practical stuff aside, as a theoretical concept, it might work. But that's gotta be one hell of a rope! .
Hmm quick question - if you had a rope 1 light-year long and you tugged one end of it, would the other end move at the same time? Is it possible to send information faster than light in this way or has God already thought of this and put some restriction in the way? -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.10 01:51:00 -
[76]
Originally by: ReaperOfSly So assuming it all works out fine and dandy, how are you going to STOP the ship when it reaches its destination?
Laser.
One cool trick for both accelerating and decelerating spacecraft is to cover an inner planet (Mercury say) with solar panels and giant lasers. Use the lasers to accelerate and decelerate incoming ships.
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
Now, since you'll never be able to reach a black hole at STL speeds, you'll prolly have to manufacture one locally. I'm not even going to speculate how you're going to be able to do that. In fact, if you have that much energy at your disposal, you might aswell put it into something more useful like figuring out how bunch the fabric of spacetime together and knocking together a few wormholes. I imagine it will involve lasers...
You can also have another black hole at the other end, throw out a rope, and grab onto an asteroid...
Originally by: ReaperOfSly
Hmm quick question - if you had a rope 1 light-year long and you tugged one end of it, would the other end move at the same time? Is it possible to send information faster than light in this way or has God already thought of this and put some restriction in the way?
No, it'll move probably move below the speed of light, as the electromagnetic forces within the rope are what actually moves it.
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Mia Archer
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Posted - 2006.03.10 11:06:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Mia Archer on 10/03/2006 11:09:11 Dark Shikari, I love discussions like this, thank you :)
As you have pointed out, a black hole with the mass of the sun has the same gravitational force as the sun.
Because of the properties of a black hole, and the above statement, I think your plan would work better with a star than a black hole. What makes a black hole so deadly is that because of the density and how close you can get to its centre (compared to a star for instance) the gravitational difference between a set of very close points is hugely different, effectively ripping whatever is unfortunate enough to get that close apart. When the asteroid/cable gets to a point where the black hole's gravitational energy is doing its thing, instead of a pull-from-one-end type situation you have forces that are ripping the object apart rather than having the object accelerate and thus transfer energy to the ship.
There is no way you could get anywhere near 0.5c with a technique like this. If you estimate asteroid diameter and mass, as well as cable mass/unit length and do the acceleration calculations you will see that by the time a significant amount of force is transfered to the ship the asteroid has been ripped to pieces.
Edit: Just saw your gravity formula above, remember that both the masses are products!
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.10 11:26:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Mia Archer
Edit: Just saw your gravity formula above, remember that both the masses are products!
No, thats the force. Acceleration does not depend on the mass of the object being moved.
Tidal forces ripping apart the black hole could be an issue, however, remember that tidal force is proportional to the inverse of the radius CUBED, which means that they are minimal until you get fanastically close, in which case they shoot through the roof. Thus, the asteroid wouldn't fall apart until it had actually gained a great deal of momentum.
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lasarith
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Posted - 2006.03.10 19:58:00 -
[79]
considering a black hole the size of 1km-can effect a solar size system 13 billion km across -1 million km is a little too close-
you need to reduce the ships mass-while keeping the same power required to push the vessle at lightspeed -or faster-i have my own idears for this-power not the reduce mass part)
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.10 20:00:00 -
[80]
Originally by: lasarith considering a black hole the size of 1km-can effect a solar size system 13 billion km across -1 million km is a little too close-
I've already plugged in the numbers into Newton's laws of gravity, as I have said before, so there's really nothing to worry about.
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Francis Verdictio
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Posted - 2006.03.10 21:53:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
I've already plugged in the numbers into Newton's laws of gravity, as I have said before, so there's really nothing to worry about.
This sounds like something out of a sci-fi movie. "Don't worry, if my calculations are correct, there should be nothing to worry about." goes the mad scientist, and we ALL know what happens next. :D
Anyways, care to give us your equations and math on the subject? I'm not qualified to go through it with a fine-toothed comb to see if you remembered to carry the zero, but I have friends who do that for fun, and I'd like to have a second opinion on whether this could work or not.
Originally by: Random Thug So it is with World of Warcraft, it's like the DISCO of mmo's, yeah it's very popular now, but everybody knows its ghey, and 10 years from now we'll all be denying we ever playe |
Vult
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Posted - 2006.03.11 03:22:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: lasarith considering a black hole the size of 1km-can effect a solar size system 13 billion km across -1 million km is a little too close-
I've already plugged in the numbers into Newton's laws of gravity, as I have said before, so there's really nothing to worry about.
That's like saying "Nah, if you push the red button that says "instant death" on it, nothing bad could possibly happen to anything in the world." Then, press the button and suddenly, all African Pygmy Goats instantly learn how to knit sweaters. And do a damn good job.
DS, I must admit... for being a forum wh*re, you sure do put geeks like myself to shame. I ran some of this by one of my dearest female friends (who happens to have very large and bouncy boobies [Hammerhead?]) and even she was astonished that someone else thinks on her intellectual level.
I'm trying to get her to play Eve. ----- I want my sig h4xx0r3d by Oveur! ...but I'll settle for any mod since Oveur can't h4x like the best of 'em... |
Shinnen
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Posted - 2006.03.11 15:47:00 -
[83]
how are you going to "Place the asteroid a few thousand kilometers from the black hole?" ---
A Selfdestruct Proposal My sig is good now?-Shinnen |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.11 15:59:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 11/03/2006 15:59:56
Originally by: Shinnen how are you going to "Place the asteroid a few thousand kilometers from the black hole?"
All you have to do is tow it remotely near the hole and the gravity will do the rest
Originally by: Vult
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: lasarith considering a black hole the size of 1km-can effect a solar size system 13 billion km across -1 million km is a little too close-
I've already plugged in the numbers into Newton's laws of gravity, as I have said before, so there's really nothing to worry about.
That's like saying "Nah, if you push the red button that says "instant death" on it, nothing bad could possibly happen to anything in the world." Then, press the button and suddenly, all African Pygmy Goats instantly learn how to knit sweaters. And do a damn good job.
DS, I must admit... for being a forum wh*re, you sure do put geeks like myself to shame. I ran some of this by one of my dearest female friends (who happens to have very large and bouncy boobies [Hammerhead?]) and even she was astonished that someone else thinks on her intellectual level.
I'm trying to get her to play Eve.
Good luck getting her to play EVE... she'd enjoy herself
And I don't think I put most of the geeks here to shame. I'm currently taking first-year physics .
P.S. This thread is useless without pics.
[23] Member: Official Forum Warrior
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GoGo Yubari
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Posted - 2006.03.11 16:40:00 -
[85]
Edited by: GoGo Yubari on 11/03/2006 16:40:34
Even if we forget the two problems of a) wtb: 1,000,000 km of cable and b) spaceship getting sucked into the blackhole ...
So, great, now you're hurtling through space at an immense speed (LEEEROY!!!!!) that will take quite a bit of time to slow down from, going towards ... nowhere? Good luck aiming that thing (and breaking in time).
I think we should send Ginger Magician to try it out, anyway.
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lasarith
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Posted - 2006.03.11 18:43:00 -
[86]
all you need to do now is find the 10 million or so black holes in our galaxy alone, and your laughing -
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Dukath
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Posted - 2006.03.11 18:48:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 07/03/2006 23:36:35 (For you physics gurus).
How to accelerate a spaceship very fast to near-light speed without much exotic physics and without much energy..
Ingredients: (1) Stellar mass black hole (3-10 solar masses is reasonable, higher can't hurt though) (1) Large asteroid (1) Spaceship with inertia dampeners (1) Strong cable a few hundred thousand to a million kilometers long, strong enough to tug the spaceship.
Directions: 1. Aim the spaceship on a path above the black hole (a few thousand kilometers above at closest approach) at a high velocity, high enough that it won't nearly be sucked in. This doesn't need to be that fast at all. Have its starting position be about 1 million km away from the black hole. 2. Attach the asteroid with the cable to the front of the spaceship. 3. Place the asteroid a few thousand kilometers from the black hole, in line with the spaceship. 4. The asteroid will now be sucked into the hole and gain a vast amount of kinetic energy before it finally disintegrates near the event horizon. At this point, you cut the cable. The ship will probably near half light speed or even more. 5. The spaceship will of course be tugged at the same speed. It will use its thrusters to ensure that its trajectory stays well above the hole as it began, however, it will have gained an incredible amount of forward velocity.
Besides getting materials strong enough to withstand the difference in gravitational pull (cable breaks) there is one slight practical issue. Getting to the black hole itself at normal speed :p
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Dukath
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Posted - 2006.03.11 19:07:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 07/03/2006 23:36:35 (For you physics gurus).
How to accelerate a spaceship very fast to near-light speed without much exotic physics and without much energy..
Ingredients: (1) Stellar mass black hole (3-10 solar masses is reasonable, higher can't hurt though) (1) Large asteroid (1) Spaceship with inertia dampeners (1) Strong cable a few hundred thousand to a million kilometers long, strong enough to tug the spaceship.
Directions: 1. Aim the spaceship on a path above the black hole (a few thousand kilometers above at closest approach) at a high velocity, high enough that it won't nearly be sucked in. This doesn't need to be that fast at all. Have its starting position be about 1 million km away from the black hole. 2. Attach the asteroid with the cable to the front of the spaceship. 3. Place the asteroid a few thousand kilometers from the black hole, in line with the spaceship. 4. The asteroid will now be sucked into the hole and gain a vast amount of kinetic energy before it finally disintegrates near the event horizon. At this point, you cut the cable. The ship will probably near half light speed or even more. 5. The spaceship will of course be tugged at the same speed. It will use its thrusters to ensure that its trajectory stays well above the hole as it began, however, it will have gained an incredible amount of forward velocity.
Besides getting materials strong enough to withstand the difference in gravitational pull (cable breaks) there is one slight practical issue. Getting to the black hole itself at normal speed :p
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Carth Jared
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Posted - 2006.03.12 02:05:00 -
[89]
...... My head hurts ><
ATUK
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Flying Squirrel
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Posted - 2006.03.12 02:19:00 -
[90]
First of all, the tensile strenght of the material used for the cable, has to be factored into the calculations. I am, however, in no way capable of doing this, as ive just learned astrophysics (with a beer or two to many), I have however deduced this: newtons gravitational laws are not acurate concerning celestial bodies, einstein figured that out(and his equations are to complicated for me!! lol). But my calculations are based on the assumptions that: The cable and asteroid does not exist, and wont do, untill someone shows the vector/mass/tensile strenght of them.( and they are essentially useless, as gravity does the trick.......) The Black hole(BH) has a mass of 5*1.99*10^30kg G=6.67x10^-11 Nm^2Kg^-2 d =1.00x10^6km H=2.36*10^-5 r(adius)=30km V=escape velocity F=grav field
F=Gm2BH/d^2
Thus to AVOID the gravitational field of the black hole, d>=(Gm2BH/F)^-1/2
To escape the gravitational pull(event horizon=0) of the black hole the following APPROXIMATION is used(allowing slingshot): V=H*r*(density of BH)^-1/2
I cant finish this post, my math/physics books are at home, and I need them to continue on my calculations. I cant combine the desired ęorbitĘ radii with the equations I haveą I need a clear mind for that, especially since orbital calculations are vectors, and I cant do that from the top of my head, without a calculatorą ill return.. lol
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oDDiTy V2
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Posted - 2006.03.12 03:01:00 -
[91]
Well since we've never been into a blackhole or really close to one before, we don't REALLY TRULY know exactly what they do/what they are.
So uh, doesn't that kinda void the possibility of calculating these things?
I mean, yeah, scientists have come up with all sorts of theories/equations for the black holes but how can they PROVE that their ideas are right when we've never been in one before? :P
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Turiya Flesharrower
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Posted - 2006.03.12 03:01:00 -
[92]
It's all a moot point really, since you can't have inertial dampeners; they pretty much contradict all of the physical laws you're using to make this work in the first place.
Can't have that cake and eat it too
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Samirol
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Posted - 2006.03.12 03:15:00 -
[93]
Originally by: oDDiTy V2 Well since we've never been into a blackhole or really close to one before, we don't REALLY TRULY know exactly what they do/what they are.
So uh, doesn't that kinda void the possibility of calculating these things?
I mean, yeah, scientists have come up with all sorts of theories/equations for the black holes but how can they PROVE that their ideas are right when we've never been in one before? :P
AFAIK, when you would go into a black hole, you would be....unable to give a fully objective report on what you are seeing.
Nerf Black Holes, they are wayyyyy overpowered IMO
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.12 03:20:00 -
[94]
Originally by: oDDiTy V2 Well since we've never been into a blackhole or really close to one before, we don't REALLY TRULY know exactly what they do/what they are.
So uh, doesn't that kinda void the possibility of calculating these things?
I mean, yeah, scientists have come up with all sorts of theories/equations for the black holes but how can they PROVE that their ideas are right when we've never been in one before? :P
Because it can generally be assumed that things will abide by the laws of physics where those laws make sense.
By the same token, you can say that you don't know that the cup in your hand will drop to the floor when you let go, because there is no way you can know what will happen until after you've measured it.
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