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Grenn Putubi
Swag Co. SWAG Co
49
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Posted - 2013.12.18 02:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm not sure if there's a metric available to the devs regarding what modules are being used by the players, but I don't recall ever using a Shield Flux Coil or a Capacitor Flux Coil module or even seeing one in a linked fit that wasn't full of fail. So I'm wondering how many people use them in successful fits? Is there a niche for these modules that I'm just not aware of or are they really as bad as they seem? According to EVE Central the market movement on these modules is far less than the other Cap or Shield support modules, so I can guess they really are used much less than the others or at least are being replaced much less often.
If these modules are being used as infrequently as they seem to be I'm wondering what could be done to maybe improve them so they see more use and open more fitting options? My first idea was to make a skill that reduces the penalty associated with their use. Perhaps a 5% per level reduction in the Capacitor or Shield Capacity penalty on a rank 3 or 4 skill? But balancing a module around a skill sometimes doesn't work to well so perhaps they should just have the penalties reduced by about 25% or so to make them slightly more useful.
I've always liked the idea of the Flux Coil modules, trading Capacity or Recharge seems like a great idea. But the way these modules are currently balanced leaves them pretty much useless because the reduction in Capacity far outweighs the increase to Recharge in effect. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd CAStabouts
1470
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Posted - 2013.12.18 02:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
I've been known to put a capacitor flux coil here and there, but most of the time it actually reduces my cap life instead of increasing it. The only ship I've gotten a good result with is the Loki. |
Coyote Laughing
3
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Posted - 2013.12.18 03:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
The whole flux/cap coil mechanic does seem to be messed up.
A quick and dirty solution would be to move capacitor batteries and shield rechargers to low slots, then eliminate coils completely.
l8r \o/ |
Travasty Space
Pilots of Epic
32
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Posted - 2013.12.18 04:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
The issue with Flux coils is that the bonus to recharge rate isn't strong enough to counteract the recharge loss from the cap amount penalty compared to the gain you get from the CPR. |
Dato Koppla
PillowFighters Inc Stealth Wear Inc.
410
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Posted - 2013.12.18 05:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
I have never come across a fit that gets less cap recharge when using a flux coil, an example would be nice if anyone can provide one. Currently flux coils aren't completely useless because they do have a niche in active shield fits cause capacitor power relays give a reduction to shield boost amount, other than that there is no reason to use it over a CPR. I think a decent solution to this would be to remove the penalty from CPRs and then just completely remove the capacitor flux coil module, I doubt this would break the balance of the game as going for cap recharge + active tank is almost exclusively a PvE thing and PvE balance doesn't matter much (unless I'm missing something else).
Now Shield Flux Coils on the other hand are damn near useless as when going for a passive shield tank, you need very little cap (often only for active hardeners/prop/guns) or sometimes none at all and thus the Shield Power Relay is a better choice 99.9% of the time. The Shield Flux Coils reduction to total shield amount is counterproductive to passive shield tanking and thus its often detrimental. |
Zvaarian the Red
Evil Leprechaun Brigade
253
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Posted - 2013.12.18 06:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
Cap flux coils seem like they work as intended from what I've seen (and yes I've used them and seen them used by others).
Shield flux coils are utterly useless on the other hand. |
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
401
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Posted - 2013.12.18 06:28:00 -
[7] - Quote
Weren't Shield Flux Coils used on the passive Drake PVE fits, once upon a time? Or am I misremembering?
edit: No, sorry, that was almost certainly Shield Power Relays. |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
614
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Posted - 2013.12.18 07:28:00 -
[8] - Quote
I always use a PDUII over the "flux" modules.
You get about 15% more recharge to what you want, more buffer, and a bonus to both cap and shield (which on an armor fit, is sort of useless, but its still 5% more shield buffer) |
Viki Katana
Circulus Exousias
0
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Posted - 2013.12.18 07:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
Grenn Putubi wrote:If these modules are being used as infrequently as they seem to be I'm wondering what could be done to maybe improve them so they see more use and open more fitting options? My first idea was to make a skill that reduces the penalty associated with their use. Perhaps a 5% per level reduction in the Capacitor or Shield Capacity penalty on a rank 3 or 4 skill? But balancing a module around a skill sometimes doesn't work to well so perhaps they should just have the penalties reduced by about 25% or so to make them slightly more useful.
I do like the skill idea. 1-2 new skills with 10% reduction to cap/shield capacity per level.
CFC II goes from -10% cap capacity to -5% at L5 SFC II goes from -15% shield capacity to -7.5% at L5
Might even make them useful.
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Grenn Putubi
Swag Co. SWAG Co
49
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Posted - 2013.12.18 14:54:00 -
[10] - Quote
Viki Katana wrote:Grenn Putubi wrote:If these modules are being used as infrequently as they seem to be I'm wondering what could be done to maybe improve them so they see more use and open more fitting options? My first idea was to make a skill that reduces the penalty associated with their use. Perhaps a 5% per level reduction in the Capacitor or Shield Capacity penalty on a rank 3 or 4 skill? But balancing a module around a skill sometimes doesn't work to well so perhaps they should just have the penalties reduced by about 25% or so to make them slightly more useful. I do like the skill idea. 1-2 new skills with 10% reduction to cap/shield capacity per level. CFC II goes from -10% cap capacity to -5% at L5 SFC II goes from -15% shield capacity to -7.5% at L5 Might even make them useful.
If we're gonna promote using a skill as a solution it should probably be just 1 skill that affects both modules. It could be named Flux Coil Tuning or something similar. I originally thought a 10% reduction per level would be a good starting place, but I'm not overly familiar with the math involved in their operation and I'd guess that CCP would need to do some testing to find the best spot for these modules to be at. So I lowered my expectations to 5% per level as a better starting point, see if that's enough and if not go to 7.5% per level and retest it. After spending some time thinking about it something tells me a 50% reduction in the penalty may be just a little too much and make these modules clearly superior to their alternatives, but that's just intuition :) |
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Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
463
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Posted - 2013.12.18 15:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
Capacitor flux coils are used sometimes when you desperately need crap stable active shield tank (meh!) and PDS just isnt enough and CPR is not an option as it reduces tank. Working as intended imo. Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks. |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
663
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Posted - 2013.12.18 15:12:00 -
[12] - Quote
cap flux coils have their niche, and I daresay they're perfectly okay. Shield flux coils could use a buff or complete removal from the game.
Coyote Laughing wrote:The whole flux/cap coil mechanic does seem to be messed up.
A quick and dirty solution would be to move capacitor batteries and shield rechargers to low slots, then eliminate coils completely.
Would make shield tanking absolutely broken (OP). "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Viki Katana
Circulus Exousias
1
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Posted - 2013.12.18 19:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
Grenn Putubi wrote:If we're gonna promote using a skill as a solution it should probably be just 1 skill that affects both modules. It could be named Flux Coil Tuning or something similar. I originally thought a 10% reduction per level would be a good starting place, but I'm not overly familiar with the math involved in their operation and I'd guess that CCP would need to do some testing to find the best spot for these modules to be at. So I lowered my expectations to 5% per level as a better starting point, see if that's enough and if not go to 7.5% per level and retest it. After spending some time thinking about it something tells me a 50% reduction in the penalty may be just a little too much and make these modules clearly superior to their alternatives, but that's just intuition :)
% math is easy multiply base by ratio where 100% = 1.00
So the skill idea i suggested is -10% per level = -0.10
Find ratio At level 5, 50% off = -0.50 <- add to ratio base (- turns it into subtract) 1.00 - 0.50 = 0.50 <- multiply that by the base stat of module (in this case -10% cap capacity)
-10 * 0.5 = -5% cap capacity
Basically 10% per level will only take off 1% cap reduction per level. Half that for 5% per level, would remove 0.5% per level. So CFC would give -7.5% at L5 of our proposed skill. 7.5% per level off leaves you at -6.25% cap capacity at L5.
I don't think 5% off would do much. Though i'm sure that if CCP looks at this seriously they will come up with their own numbers.
FYI(got nothing to do with flux topic) calculating your mwd speed is pretty cool too. +500% base = +5.00 <- add to ratio base 1.00 + 5.00 = 6.00 <- mutiply by base speed
all at 5 is 625% faster = 7.25 times faster than your base speed |
Grenn Putubi
Swag Co. SWAG Co
49
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Posted - 2013.12.18 20:04:00 -
[14] - Quote
Well, that's not exactly the math I was talking about.
The way Flux Coils work you trade Capacity for Recharge, but the way Capacitor and Shields recharge in EVE isn't a constant. Their recharge rate is based on your Max Capacity and a % of that capacity per second. So these modules work very oddly when compared to the others because they lower the Max Capacity and by doing so lower the recharge rate, but then give a recharge rate a boost bigger than the loss they're imposing. By reducing the capacity penalty you're in effect increasing the recharge rate these modules provide and I'm not familiar enough with the math to say how much of a boost this would give them in effectiveness.
The stats on a T2 Cap Flux Coil gives a 26% bonus to regen, but a 10% penalty. So imagine a ship with a 100 Capacity and a 10 regen/s peak regen (reached at 30 cap remaining) would be lowered to 90 Max with a 9 regen/s peak but then adjust that to increase by 26% to 11.34 regen/s peak (reached at 27 cap remaining). So you're increasing your peak regen but lowering your max and thus moving your peak regen to a lower point on the scale.
If we start lowering the penalty to Cap the effects become much more pronounced. Imagine the same ship (100 Cap, 10/s peak regen) using a module that provides the same regen bonus, but only a 5% penalty to cap would be lowered to 95 Max Cap with a 9.5/s max regen but then increased to 11.97 peak regen/s at 28.5 cap remaining. That doesn't seem like a whole lot but it's a bit more than a 6% increase in effectiveness over the current version and that may be a bit too much of a buff. I'm not totally sure how that would affect the modules in the long term and I'd guess CCP would have a better grasp on the numbers and mechanics than I do. |
Viki Katana
Circulus Exousias
1
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Posted - 2013.12.18 20:46:00 -
[15] - Quote
Grenn Putubi wrote:Well, that's not exactly the math I was talking about. The way Flux Coils work you trade Capacity for Recharge, but the way Capacitor and Shields recharge in EVE isn't a constant. Their recharge rate is based on your Max Capacity and a % of that capacity per second. So these modules work very oddly when compared to the others because they lower the Max Capacity and by doing so lower the recharge rate, but then give a recharge rate a boost bigger than the loss they're imposing. By reducing the capacity penalty you're in effect increasing the recharge rate these modules provide and I'm not familiar enough with the math to say how much of a boost this would give them in effectiveness. The stats on a T2 Cap Flux Coil gives a 26% bonus to regen, but a 10% penalty. So imagine a ship with a 100 Capacity and a 10 regen/s peak regen (reached at 30 cap remaining) would be lowered to 90 Max with a 9 regen/s peak but then adjust that to increase by 26% to 11.34 regen/s peak (reached at 27 cap remaining). So you're increasing your peak regen but lowering your max and thus moving your peak regen to a lower point on the scale. If we start lowering the penalty to Cap the effects become much more pronounced. Imagine the same ship (100 Cap, 10/s peak regen) using a module that provides the same regen bonus, but only a 5% penalty to cap would be lowered to 95 Max Cap with a 9.5/s max regen but then increased to 11.97 peak regen/s at 28.5 cap remaining. That doesn't seem like a whole lot but it's a bit more than a 6% increase in effectiveness over the current version and that may be a bit too much of a buff. I'm not totally sure how that would affect the modules in the long term and I'd guess CCP would have a better grasp on the numbers and mechanics than I do. Edit: For the record I know these numbers aren't really relevant. I'm just using them as an example to illustrate how complicated this module really is. No ship that I'm aware of actually gets a 10% peak regen and if you're interested in the math involved in how it's all really working in the game check out this short article on Capacitor recharge function. I believe that shields recharge using the same function as described in that article so the math should work the same for both Shield and Capacitor Flux Coils.
Good point, but doesn't the cap buff apply to the total time it takes to recharge the cap from empty and not the peak recharge? Just playing with some numbers in EFT on a moa (all at L5) with a single CFC. I get -26% to recharge time but only 21% to peak recharge. With a single CPR i get -24% to recharge time and 31% to peak. Which is why CPRs are the prefered choice. |
Grenn Putubi
Swag Co. SWAG Co
49
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Posted - 2013.12.18 21:11:00 -
[16] - Quote
Viki Katana wrote: Good point, but doesn't the cap buff apply to the total time it takes to recharge the cap from empty and not the peak recharge? Just playing with some numbers in EFT on a moa (all at L5) with a single CFC. I get -26% to recharge time but only 21% to peak recharge. With a single CPR i get -24% to recharge time and 31% to peak. Which is why CPRs are the prefered choice.
Yeah and when you're Armor tanking the CPR is a clear choice, but for a shield tank it's a big downer. The penalty to shield boosting means the only low slot module that really doesn't have a downside is the PDS and it's usually nowhere near enough to get you stable. Trying to stack Flux Coils is usually pointless because you'll end up without enough cap to actually run your modules and stacking CPRs means the amount you're getting from your booster is lower than required. Combine that with the fact that an active shield tank usually requires at least 4 mid slots for tank modules (2 invuls, 1 EM, 1 booster) and few ships have more than 5 mids means your choice for that last mid slot is between a cap recharger, a cap booster, a prop mod, or some other mid slot module that you probably need to make the ship worth flying in the first place.
I have to admit that active and passive shield tanking are really the only things that would benefit from any changes to the Flux Coils. The CPR has less fittings with the same skill requirements as the Cap Flux Coil and the Shield Flux Coil's only purpose is for passive tanking to begin with. So if you're not shield tanking the CPR is the clear choice even after the changes proposed. Changes to the Shield Flux Coil could improve the viability of passive tanking on cap hungry ships (ie ships with lasers or hybrids). |
Coyote Laughing
13
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Posted - 2013.12.23 03:05:00 -
[17] - Quote
Why is it even necessary to have a shield booster for passive ships when there is shield logistics? This just encourages AFK play.
Perhaps change them into "shield diagnostic systems", then splitting the capacitor bonus off from "power diagnostic systems", along with my idea above.
Auxillary power cores and reactor controls are sufficient for increasing power grid already - there is no need for a universal system that gives a feeble bonus to all attributes in a game that has stacking penalties.
Getting out occams razor and slashing is probably the only solution to this unnecessary complexity. l8r \o/ |
Daenika
MMO-Mechanics.com
23
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Posted - 2013.12.23 03:45:00 -
[18] - Quote
Flux coils always boost your total regen. They can't not, mathematically.
The equation for your peak regen with both capacitor and shield is Peak = 2.5 * Capacity / RegenTime. For example, a Harbinger, baseline, has a cap capacity of 3125 and a recharge time of 822. That means it's average regen rate (Capacity / RegenTime) is 3.801703, and it's peak regen rate (which occurs precisely at 1 - Sqrt(2)/2, or ~29.29%) is 9.504258.
A Capacitor Flux Coil II reduces the RegenTime by 26%, but also reduces the Capacity by 10%. As a result, it increases the peak regen by (1 - 0.1) / (1 - 0.26) = 0.9 / 0.74 = 1.216_ = 21.6%. It can't ever be anything else. There are no additive terms within the cap regen formula, and neither effect is stacking penalized, so applying the same factors to the equation will always yield the same results.
A Capacitor Power Relay II is simply a flat 24% reduction to RegenTime, translating to a 31.6% increase in peak regen. Cap Power Relays are thus 46.1% more potent than a Capacitor Flux Coil, in exchange for reducing shield boost by 10%.
Shield Flux Coils work in a similar manner. They are less powerful than Shield Power Relays (though by a different factor than for Cap), but Shield Power Relays reduce your capacitor regen as a penalty. Shield Flux Coil IIs are a 30% reduction in regen time, 15% reduction in HP, and thus a 21.43% increase in peak regen rate (which also occurs at 29.29%, since shield and cap use the exact same formula to calculate their regen rate). Shield Power Relays are identical to Cap Power Relays, 24% reduction in regen time. Thus Shield Power Relays are 47.4% more potent than Shield Flux Coils, but in exchange reduce cap regen (rather significantly, incidentally. Shield Power Relay II is a 26% reduction in peak cap regen).
The two fill valid roles. One penalizes itself, making it roughly a third less powerful, while the other penalizes a competing metric. Shield penalizes cap, cap penalizes shield. If you need both, that's what the flux coils are for.
Edit: On a related side note, cap flux coils actually serve a secondary purpose now, as they make you less vulnerable to nosferatu, and place your peak regen at a lower actual cap level (same percentage, lower megajoule level). On the flip side, this translates to an increased vulnerability to to neuts, both because your peak is lower, your total capacity is lower, and because the neuts have an easier time pushing you past your peak regen, as they remove a larger percentage of your cap per cycle (and thus you can more easily skip the "peak" of the cap regen hill). Given that the latter are still more common than the former, however, this probably serves more to weaken flux coils rather than strengthen them. |
Grenn Putubi
Swag Co. SWAG Co
51
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Posted - 2013.12.25 15:41:00 -
[19] - Quote
Daenika wrote:Flux coils always boost your total regen. They can't not, mathematically.
The equation for your peak regen with both capacitor and shield is Peak = 2.5 * Capacity / RegenTime. For example, a Harbinger, baseline, has a cap capacity of 3125 and a recharge time of 822. That means it's average regen rate (Capacity / RegenTime) is 3.801703, and it's peak regen rate (which occurs precisely at 1 - Sqrt(2)/2, or ~29.29%) is 9.504258.
A Capacitor Flux Coil II reduces the RegenTime by 26%, but also reduces the Capacity by 10%. As a result, it increases the peak regen by (1 - 0.1) / (1 - 0.26) = 0.9 / 0.74 = 1.216_ = 21.6%. It can't ever be anything else. There are no additive terms within the cap regen formula, and neither effect is stacking penalized, so applying the same factors to the equation will always yield the same results.
A Capacitor Power Relay II is simply a flat 24% reduction to RegenTime, translating to a 31.6% increase in peak regen. Cap Power Relays are thus 46.1% more potent than a Capacitor Flux Coil, in exchange for reducing shield boost by 10%.
Shield Flux Coils work in a similar manner. They are less powerful than Shield Power Relays (though by a different factor than for Cap), but Shield Power Relays reduce your capacitor regen as a penalty. Shield Flux Coil IIs are a 30% reduction in regen time, 15% reduction in HP, and thus a 21.43% increase in peak regen rate (which also occurs at 29.29%, since shield and cap use the exact same formula to calculate their regen rate). Shield Power Relays are identical to Cap Power Relays, 24% reduction in regen time. Thus Shield Power Relays are 47.4% more potent than Shield Flux Coils, but in exchange reduce cap regen (rather significantly, incidentally. Shield Power Relay II is a 26% reduction in peak cap regen).
The two fill valid roles. One penalizes itself, making it roughly a third less powerful, while the other penalizes a competing metric. Shield penalizes cap, cap penalizes shield. If you need both, that's what the flux coils are for.
Edit: On a related side note, cap flux coils actually serve a secondary purpose now, as they make you less vulnerable to nosferatu, and place your peak regen at a lower actual cap level (same percentage, lower megajoule level). On the flip side, this translates to an increased vulnerability to to neuts, both because your peak is lower, your total capacity is lower, and because the neuts have an easier time pushing you past your peak regen, as they remove a larger percentage of your cap per cycle (and thus you can more easily skip the "peak" of the cap regen hill). Given that the latter are still more common than the former, however, this probably serves more to weaken flux coils rather than strengthen them.
All true and very valid.
The trouble is that by lowering your absolute cap it makes it easier for many modules to push you past your peak regen much faster. As they are Cap Flux Coils are almost always a detriment when used on a ship with an active tank or any module with an expensive activation cost because you have less cap to work with so you dip past your peak regen faster. You certainly recover faster from it, but in most cases the time spent waiting will get you killed. While Shield Flux Coils are almost never used at all because they lower your resistance to burst damage by reducing your buffer.
The vast majority of the time the benefits of a Flux Coil, Cap or Shield, do not outweigh the penalties involved in their use. You said yourself the Cap Power Relay II is 46% more potent than a Cap Flux Coil in exchange for only a 10% reduction in shield boost, that's a huge difference in effectiveness coupled with a much more easily understood and manageable penalty.
If we plug some different numbers into the math you provided the differences between the 2 modules are lessened, but not removed. If we reduce the Capacity penalty to only 5% we end up with a peak regen of 28.3% from a Cap Flux Coil II. Still less than a Cap Power Relay II, but now the Relay is only about 11% more potent. If we use a penalty of 7.5% the peak regen bonus of a Cap Flux Coil II is 25%, and the Cap Power Relay is now only 26.4% more potent. Either one of these changes would make the Flux Coils far more useful than they currently are, which would lead to more fitting options for pilots, which leads to more engaging and competitive game play because there's more variety on grid. Nothing about these changes would make Flux Coils superior to other modules, just widen their niche and use while expanding the options for pilots to create more varied fittings. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
442
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Posted - 2013.12.25 17:49:00 -
[20] - Quote
I've seen some very niche use on the rattlesnake, tengu and loki where they give the extra cap regen needed without penalising the shield boost amount where the shield boost amount was more important - extremely niche use though.
To me they seem to have been designed to compliment another feature that itself never made it into eve and they just got left there as is. |
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