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Phyrr
The Gosimer and Scarab
1
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Posted - 2014.01.02 04:57:00 -
[121] - Quote
Garandras wrote:If they nerf drone assist then it will just mean that the slow cats wouldnt be able to go get a cup of coffee in the middle of the battle.. wont change a great deal..
This |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8035
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 04:57:00 -
[122] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Pinky Hops wrote:Perhaps if blobbing isn't working out so well you could consider not blobbing.
That's usually my approach to problems. When something works like ****, I try a different approach.
Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. Some people prefer to do the same thing over and over and hope that one day the outcome is different than all the other times. This kind of person is also known to lose lots of money on slot machines. And how exactly will a smaller fleet break the tank of a slowcat fleet when the firepower of two full fleets of battleships isnt enough to even scratch them? By being creative, duh. Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
9709
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 05:19:00 -
[123] - Quote
Phyrr wrote:Garandras wrote:If they nerf drone assist then it will just mean that the slow cats wouldnt be able to go get a cup of coffee in the middle of the battle.. wont change a great deal.. This
Locking time, range, having to mix repping and combat targets. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8035
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 05:25:00 -
[124] - Quote
Or of course the big one: focusing fire becomes much more difficult. Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6038
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 06:34:00 -
[125] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Phyrr wrote:Garandras wrote:If they nerf drone assist then it will just mean that the slow cats wouldnt be able to go get a cup of coffee in the middle of the battle.. wont change a great deal.. This Locking time, range, having to mix repping and combat targets. Since this is clearly the case, just let it get nerfed then.
Nope? Well that's ok. ^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6038
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Posted - 2014.01.02 06:35:00 -
[126] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:baltec1 wrote:Pinky Hops wrote:Perhaps if blobbing isn't working out so well you could consider not blobbing.
That's usually my approach to problems. When something works like ****, I try a different approach.
Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. Some people prefer to do the same thing over and over and hope that one day the outcome is different than all the other times. This kind of person is also known to lose lots of money on slot machines. And how exactly will a smaller fleet break the tank of a slowcat fleet when the firepower of two full fleets of battleships isnt enough to even scratch them? By being creative, duh. Go back to highsec, slowcats can't go there ^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers. |
Debora Tsung
The Investment Bankers Guild
818
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 11:15:00 -
[127] - Quote
Just a quick question to those of you with a greater understanding on fleet tactics than mine.
As far as I understand the slowcat doctrine, removing the ability to assign sentry drones would mean that the ability to simulaneously apply all the damage of the entire fleet at once would vanish. But wouldn't that mean, that a slowcat fleet of sufficient size would in essence still be almost unkillable due to all the awesome remote reps?
To me it looks like the only thing that would change if that ability was removed is that the time a slowcat fleet needed to kill anything would increase, but not by much.
Am I wrong with that or am I lacking some information? Stupidity should be a bannable offense.
Also This --> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=216699 Please stop making "afk cloak" threads, thanks in advance. |
Movarer
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
19
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Posted - 2014.01.02 12:15:00 -
[128] - Quote
Debora Tsung wrote:Just a quick question to those of you with a greater understanding on fleet tactics than mine. As far as I understand the slowcat doctrine, removing the ability to assign sentry drones would mean that the ability to simulaneously apply all the damage of the entire fleet at once would vanish. But wouldn't that mean, that a slowcat fleet of sufficient size would in essence still be almost unkillable due to all the awesome remote reps? To me it looks like the only thing that would change if that ability was removed is that the time a slowcat fleet needed to kill anything would increase, but not by much. Am I wrong with that or am I lacking some information?
The biggest difference: No instant application of damage (it would be just as any gun/missile fleet trying to apply "perfect alpha" its not entierly doable due to variables) This is obviously a MASSIVE nerf.
Other downsides would be far lesser range, a slowcat archon now with drone assist as it is can apply damage up to about 180km or something stupid like that, it can also do this while being fully tanked and this is obviously also with an assistee so locktimes are irrelevant. Popping frigs as fast as the FC ship can lock with carriers is wierd in my opinion.
Its a huge nerf and it should never have gotten this far along, its by far the most boring **** ever, assist drones, watch netflix. Even pressing F1 and locking stuff every 5-10minutes is more engaging. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
673
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 12:20:00 -
[129] - Quote
if you have to deal with slowcats, you're probably on the wrong side of the blob anyways and rightfully receive punishment in this manner for a very good reason of supporting blue donut 0.0 politics regimes. |
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die Retribution.
114
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Posted - 2014.01.02 12:23:00 -
[130] - Quote
drone assist should be nerfed, simple.
Having 200 archons now as a standard fleet is wrong somehow. Everyone is running around in carrier fleet just as if they are like sub cap fleets. Theres something wrong there. And i used to be one of them! but still think from a game perspective, the carrier needs another role balance. We shouldn't be having 200 carrier.super fleets. |
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Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
673
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 12:24:00 -
[131] - Quote
tiberiusric wrote:drone assist should be nerfed, simple.
Having 200 archons now as a standard fleet is wrong somehow. Everyone is running around in carrier fleet just as if they are like sub cap fleets. Theres something wrong there. And i used to be one of them! but still think from a game perspective, the carrier needs another role balance. We shouldn't be having 200 carrier.super fleets.
who is everyone? Show me people who do that. |
tiberiusric
Comply Or Die Retribution.
114
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 12:25:00 -
[132] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:tiberiusric wrote:drone assist should be nerfed, simple.
Having 200 archons now as a standard fleet is wrong somehow. Everyone is running around in carrier fleet just as if they are like sub cap fleets. Theres something wrong there. And i used to be one of them! but still think from a game perspective, the carrier needs another role balance. We shouldn't be having 200 carrier.super fleets. who is everyone? Show me people who do that.
lol dont comment on something you clearly no nothing about.
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Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
673
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 12:27:00 -
[133] - Quote
tiberiusric wrote:Robert Caldera wrote:tiberiusric wrote:drone assist should be nerfed, simple.
Having 200 archons now as a standard fleet is wrong somehow. Everyone is running around in carrier fleet just as if they are like sub cap fleets. Theres something wrong there. And i used to be one of them! but still think from a game perspective, the carrier needs another role balance. We shouldn't be having 200 carrier.super fleets. who is everyone? Show me people who do that. lol dont comment on something you clearly no nothing about.
how about killboard link? I know PL/N3 massively use slowcats but they are far off from "everyone". |
Alphea Abbra
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
521
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 12:56:00 -
[134] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Pinky Hops wrote:Perhaps if blobbing isn't working out so well you could consider not blobbing.
That's usually my approach to problems. When something works like ****, I try a different approach.
Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. Some people prefer to do the same thing over and over and hope that one day the outcome is different than all the other times. This kind of person is also known to lose lots of money on slot machines. And how exactly will a smaller fleet break the tank of a slowcat fleet when the firepower of two full fleets of battleships isnt enough to even scratch them? One idea would be that if our opponent was less than 500 BS on grid, we'd use another tactic. There's no reason to risk the big guns if the smaller ones can do the job too. Apart from that, I have yet to see some good CFC arguments for slowcat nerfs. It can really be boiled down to "we won't beat it the ways we know how to, therefore it needs nerfing" - working towards Omegafleet and all that is fine, but if you know how to counter the fleet concepts we use, your cries for nerfs are really just whining.
tiberiusric wrote:lol dont comment on something you clearly no nothing about. Take your own advice?
I'd ask if Alavaria Fera is just setting up an ironic act of a total imbecile, but at this point I have realised it's not an act. My enjoyment of these forums went up by hiding its posts. |
Movarer
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 13:28:00 -
[135] - Quote
Alphea Abbra wrote:baltec1 wrote:Pinky Hops wrote:Perhaps if blobbing isn't working out so well you could consider not blobbing.
That's usually my approach to problems. When something works like ****, I try a different approach.
Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. Some people prefer to do the same thing over and over and hope that one day the outcome is different than all the other times. This kind of person is also known to lose lots of money on slot machines. And how exactly will a smaller fleet break the tank of a slowcat fleet when the firepower of two full fleets of battleships isnt enough to even scratch them? One idea would be that if our opponent was less than 500 BS on grid, we'd use another tactic. There's no reason to risk the big guns if the smaller ones can do the job too. Apart from that, I have yet to see some good CFC arguments for slowcat nerfs. It can really be boiled down to "we won't beat it the ways we know how to, therefore it needs nerfing" - working towards Omegafleet and all that is fine, but if you know how to counter the fleet concepts we use, your cries for nerfs are really just whining. tiberiusric wrote:lol dont comment on something you clearly no nothing about. Take your own advice? I'd ask if Alavaria Fera is just setting up an ironic act of a total imbecile, but at this point I have realised it's not an act. My enjoyment of these forums went up by hiding its posts.
There is no reason to risk the big guns? What do you have that outperforms slowcats in ANY aspect? A titanblob cant do what it does. A superblob cant either. It has great tank, perfect damage application, insane range, cost-efficiency, replacability, etc. If you do NOT put a slowcat fleet to defensive use, you are being stupid, and that is why its broken.
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Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
673
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 13:32:00 -
[136] - Quote
Movarer wrote:There is no reason to risk the big guns? What do you have that outperforms slowcats in ANY aspect? A titanblob cant do what it does. A superblob cant either. It has great tank, perfect damage application, insane range, cost-efficiency, replacability, etc. If you do NOT put a slowcat fleet to defensive use, you are being stupid, and that is why its broken.
here again, who deploys slowcat fleets apart of N3? Noone really enjoys these fleets like I stated above, people would any time fly something where they can press F1 and click things a little more than sitting in a slowcat while watching movie, so if a subcap fleet can do it it will be always preference. |
Movarer
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 13:50:00 -
[137] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:Movarer wrote:There is no reason to risk the big guns? What do you have that outperforms slowcats in ANY aspect? A titanblob cant do what it does. A superblob cant either. It has great tank, perfect damage application, insane range, cost-efficiency, replacability, etc. If you do NOT put a slowcat fleet to defensive use, you are being stupid, and that is why its broken.
here again, who deploys slowcat fleets apart of N3? Noone really enjoys these fleets like I stated above, people would any time fly something where they can press F1 and click things a little more than sitting in a slowcat while watching movie, so if a subcap fleet can do it it will be always preference.
But subcaps cant, thats the entire issue, you cant even specialize ANY ship to do as good of a job as a slowcat does like. Range is unmatched, spiderrepping is unmatched, (perfect) alpha damage is unmatched. Slowcats in my opinion isnt even the issue, just removing the incredibly boring and broken drone assist meaning that slowcats and domis/prophs acctually have to PUSH BUTTONS more then bridge in, anchor, drop drones, assign and come back in an hour to see if you won or lost.
Drone assist is what is making the slowcats so good, if they did NOT have the ability to assign their drones to a fast locking bricktanked fc then all the issues would be fine, they wouldnt be able to do a perfect volley, they wouldnt be able to lock frigs and shoot frigs at 100km+, they wouldnt be able to outtank everything unless they dropped their damage while doing it. All in all, the slowcats are at the breaking edge of drone assist tactics, I myself see the domi's power time and time again and sure, its absolutely terrifying to instapop other battleships, its at the same time a BAD THING FOR EVE. Pilots not doing **** leads to pilots being bored leads to not logging in leads to EVE IS DEAD. So thanks droneassist you killed eve.
But more seriously, why IS the drone assist mechanic in the game? Why should the pilot not handle their own drones? Im not very well in to why that mechanic works as it does, but seeing as how fighters (a mechanic not very unlike drones) does not work with unlimited assigned fighters etc, whats the difference that makes people think that drone assists are OK? |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
673
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 13:56:00 -
[138] - Quote
yet, you didnt answer my question.
Relatively small coalition of alliances found a way to fight off hordes of scrubs, how is this a problem? Shows that sheer number of stupids in fleet isnt everything in this game, a good thing actually!
Bring right tool for the job and be done with it?! Amount of supers/dreads will break slowcats, inability to bring that to the table is the core issue - not slowcat fleets. |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA Apex.
183
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 14:15:00 -
[139] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:yet, you didnt answer my question.
Relatively small coalition of alliances found a way to fight off hordes of scrubs, how is this a problem? Shows that sheer number of stupids in fleet isnt everything in this game, a good thing actually!
Bring right tool for the job and be done with it?! Amount of supers/dreads will break slowcats, inability to bring that to the table is the core issue - not slowcat fleets.
No, you're totally wrong.
The game should be such that whichever coalition can get more pilots into the system automatically wins the fight.
No need to calculate things like damage. No need to think about fittings. Just whoever brings more people, wins. I think this would suit goons just fine.
No thinking. Just blobbing. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
9720
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 15:32:00 -
[140] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:yet, you didnt answer my question.
Relatively small coalition of alliances found a way to fight off hordes of scrubs, how is this a problem? Shows that sheer number of stupids in fleet isnt everything in this game, a good thing actually!
Bring right tool for the job and be done with it?! Amount of supers/dreads will break slowcats, inability to bring that to the table is the core issue - not slowcat fleets.
Having 90% of ships invalidated by just one is a massive balance issue. CCP do not want capitals online and nobody wants a situation where it is impossible for a newer alliance to win fights vs the superpowers. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
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MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1645
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 15:38:00 -
[141] - Quote
why not make a new skill? call it multi drone matrix. the skill would allow 5 people per level to assign thier drones to you. so that means at level 5 you can only have 25 peopls drones asigned to you. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
673
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 15:46:00 -
[142] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Having 90% of ships invalidated by just one is a massive balance issue. CCP do not want capitals online and nobody wants a situation where it is impossible for a newer alliance to win fights vs the superpowers.
if CCP wants sheer number play then they will remove capitals from combat, which I dont support. Its not the sole ship type which invalidates 90% of your kitchensink, I posted on previous page why N3 can field them and why others cant.
No newer alliance is going to win something vs. 1000 megathrons either, so whats your point exactly here? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
9720
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 15:54:00 -
[143] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:baltec1 wrote: Having 90% of ships invalidated by just one is a massive balance issue. CCP do not want capitals online and nobody wants a situation where it is impossible for a newer alliance to win fights vs the superpowers.
if CCP wants sheer number play then they will remove capitals from combat, which I dont support. Its not the sole ship type which invalidates 90% of your kitchensink, I posted on previous page why N3 can field them and why others cant. No newer alliance is going to win something vs. 1000 megathrons either, so whats your point exactly here?
They can and do win.
RnK are by far the most deadly force in the galaxy and often murder entire fleets no matter who they belong to. We have countless examples of much smaller alliances beating much bigger superpowers. Numbers alone will not win big fights.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Alphea Abbra
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
521
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 15:57:00 -
[144] - Quote
Movarer wrote:There is no reason to risk the big guns? What do you have that outperforms slowcats in ANY aspect? A titanblob cant do what it does. A superblob cant either. It has great tank, perfect damage application, insane range, cost-efficiency, replacability, etc. If you do NOT put a slowcat fleet to defensive use, you are being stupid, and that is why its broken. Umm, a Dominix can outperform an Archon in some of those aspects, and especially in movability. It's also easier to get people into Dominixes and much cheaper to move such a fleet around.
DPS wise an Archon is comparable to an Armor Instacane (~500 DPS from an Archon, ~400 DPS from this instacane).
If you want combat cost efficiency cruisers or battlecruisers are much better than capitals for almost anything.
Just to deploy Slowcats has costs, even if the enemy stands down right after jump-in. Say that N3+PL has to defend 9-8G in Catch. If all the Archons have Fuel Conservation 5, that's 1 416 Helium Isotopes per Archon, x250 Archons it's 212M (~600 isk/u for the isotopes) just to deploy, and 212M to get home. That's not a lot, especially not per carrier pilot, but it's each time. Each and every time we need to defend 9-8G.
All this with the risk that if things go south, the loss of each slowcat is ~2B, a BS is ~250m, a BC is ~60M, and a cruiser can be what, 30M these days? If, say, you expect at least 1 slowcat to not broadcast for reps and thus die (So only 1 person is watching Netflix or whatever), a fleet of BS can lose 8, a BC fleet can lose 33 and a CR fleet can lose 67 ships and still be equivalent. You only need to kill around 30 T2 sentries for each CR you lost yourself, or 60 per BC, or 250 per BS.
The slowcat has some excellent uses, but the reason it's used so much by N3+PL is not that it's perfect for every situation, but the degree to which it is able to fight outnumbered and survive/hold the grid. The easiest counter to a Slowcat fleet is not to be on the same grid as it is. There, countered. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
673
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 16:01:00 -
[145] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: They can and do win.
RnK are by far the most deadly force in the galaxy and often murder entire fleets no matter who they belong to. We have countless examples of much smaller alliances beating much bigger superpowers. Numbers alone will not win big fights.
what are we talking about here about gud fights or about sov war?
In case of first: why would someone want to try or expect a gud fight against slowcats? These are consensual to some degree and optional you dont need to fight what you dont like. Only strategic objectives at static locations are able to pin someone down for slowcats under the choice of loosing something substantial like sov or station, pretty everyone else can walk away with no losses.
If case of second: show me RnK space they grabbed from goon block? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
9720
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 16:33:00 -
[146] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:baltec1 wrote: They can and do win.
RnK are by far the most deadly force in the galaxy and often murder entire fleets no matter who they belong to. We have countless examples of much smaller alliances beating much bigger superpowers. Numbers alone will not win big fights.
what are we talking about here about gud fights or about sov war? In case of first: why would someone want to try or expect a gud fight against slowcats? These are consensual to some degree and optional you dont need to fight what you dont like. Only strategic objectives at static locations are able to pin someone down for slowcats under the choice of loosing something substantial like sov or station, pretty everyone else can walk away with no losses. If case of second: show me RnK space they grabbed from goon block?
Having a chance of victory is always better than no chance at all. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
673
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 16:36:00 -
[147] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
Having a chance of victory is always better than no chance at all.
so you were talking about consensual, optional gud fight I assume - then you better bring proper ships for that, noone can force you to fight with knife in a gunfight. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
9720
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 16:47:00 -
[148] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:baltec1 wrote:
Having a chance of victory is always better than no chance at all.
so you were talking about consensual, optional gud fight I assume - then you better bring proper ships for that, noone can force you to fight with knife in a gunfight.
Both.
RnK might not have (or want) sov but they did turn battles and often forced one side to stand down with as few as 40 people. If we allow this game to decend into capitals online then it will be impossible for most peopleto do anything againt the two powerblocks.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8054
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 18:13:00 -
[149] - Quote
Robert Caldera seems to forget that we can use the slowcat blob, and you'll have no chance of taking our sov if we do. Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6041
|
Posted - 2014.01.02 18:16:00 -
[150] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Robert Caldera wrote:baltec1 wrote:Having a chance of victory is always better than no chance at all. so you were talking about consensual, optional gud fight I assume - then you better bring proper ships for that, noone can force you to fight with knife in a gunfight. Both. RnK might not have (or want) sov but they did turn battles and often forced one side to stand down with as few as 40 people. If we allow this game to decend into capitals online then it will be impossible for most peopleto do anything againt the two powerblocks. Why worry so much, they can join the coalition that exists to destroy us. ^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers. |
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