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Lormus
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Posted - 2006.03.15 20:47:00 -
[1]
One thing is making me headaches. Players wich started 2 years before me will always be ahead of me. How can i have equality when figthing a pirate wich is 2 years older then i am. Isnt he superior all the time? Doesnt this skill system have a big problem that is that newer players will always stay behind?
This skill system uses real time so older player have an advantage newer ones never can catch upto right?
Regards.... Lormus.
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Mudkest
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Posted - 2006.03.15 21:05:00 -
[2]
hmm well, the 2 year old will mostly be specialized, and while it is an advantage it's not so big that you dont stand a chance. Yes he'll have a lot more skill points, and probably quite a few of those coem from leel 5 skills. training a skill from 4 to 5 takes roughly 4 times longer then triaing that skill to level4, and it's effect increases by 1/5th most of the time, so it's a long training time for a small increase. biggest advantage theye have over you right now is pvp experience. skillpoint wise, you cant catch up with them no, but that does not mean you're chancless.
In most other games, if you would lead 40 2 month old players agasint 2 2 year old veterans, you dont stand a chance. In eve, if you manage to get them organized then theye pose a serious thread to the veterans.
I'm sure others will be able to explain better, but you're not a the mercy of the veterans in eve
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Karol Kei
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Posted - 2006.03.15 21:08:00 -
[3]
No. The point of Eve is it is different. You have to let go of what you have learned in other games first, then you can understand it. Eve is not linear there is no absolute ahead and behind.
In the beginning you will be in disadvantage in many ways. This won't matter that much because it's the time that you will use to learn the game anyway and no number of skill points would save you. Pretty soon you will be able to perform a role well enough.
The veterans may (or may not depending) be able to perform the role marginally better. The real difference is that a lot of us old timers can do this and that - but using myself as an example a 2 month old will be as good a frig tackler as I am. Or better if he actually has a clue which he may well have at that point.
There are also some roles that you will have to wait for a long time or may not ever be able to perform. The extreme one would be the titan pilot. But then again. I will never be able to pilot a titan either so it's not as much about being an older character and having more skill points as it is about many many other things.
Skill points are just a number. What you are willing and able to do and what sort of people you will fly with are much more important.
The important part to remember is Eve is not like other games. Eve skills are not like skills in other games. My 40 million skill points won't save me against a good PvP pilot with 4 let alone two of them with 3. This is completely different from other games where a level X character will afkwtpwn twenty lvl X-3 level characters.
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Brisi
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Posted - 2006.03.15 21:11:00 -
[4]
How is this different from any other game?
Sure, you could possibly reach lvl 60 in WoW or whatever game and then be 'equal' level to the other guys, but how would that change the others 2-year experience and equipment?
Anyways, in EVE (as opposed to almost any other MMO) personal skill > Skillpoints (levels). You can 5m SP and still beat a guy with 30m, it all comes down personal skill. And if you specialize in a ship, you'll become even more competitive.
One thing you've got to remember. Even if I have 35m SP, they're all diversed over many different ships. I.E, if I fly a Megathron I probably utilize about 20m of my SP, but if I fly a Crow I only use about 8m. Also, ship setups in general will decide a fight, not skillpoints.
I guess the true question to ask oneself, is: Would you rather have a limited system, with an endgame that would just turn out to be grinding for isk? Or would you rather give EVE a chance?
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retric
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Posted - 2006.03.15 21:24:00 -
[5]
Edited by: retric on 15/03/2006 21:24:54 Having started 2 months ago I was faced with the same question when you really look at the skill trees a lot of skill points are only useful some of the time.
EX: Looking at Amarr ship's most of them have vary few slot's for rockets so you can skip that skill tree and get ahead of anyone that "wasted all those point's in that area."
Their is a limit to this but if you focus on mining and then jumping in an aeon (Carriers) you can be rich AND evil in PVP without wasting points in rockets or guns. There are a lot of skills that help outside of combat but they only really give you more cash or save you time.
My advice is to get learning skills to 4 (takes about a week) then spend point's on whatever seem like fun for a month or two then start training adv learning skills and then focus on some area that looks fun. Chances are you will have "maxed" your first target in 6 months to a year and a lot of people that started before you will have moved on to new games or a new area of eve where most of their investment is "wasted" at which point you can start feeling like the king a world, one of many but hey it's a world
PS: Granted some people will have a lot more diversity than you and some will have more cash, but all that really means is they get to feel all smug in their pod.
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Dynast
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Posted - 2006.03.15 21:31:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Lormus How can i have equality when figthing a pirate wich is 2 years older then i am. Isnt he superior all the time? Doesnt this skill system have a big problem that is that newer players will always stay behind?
It's pretty much guaranteed that you will always have a lower number of SP. However the number of levels to each skill is capped, so you can attain parity in any given skill -- no matter how old a character is, Gallente Cruiser 5 is Gallente Cruiser 5.
The end result is that combat wise, you can catch up, because there's a limited number of skills to be trained that affect any given ship and fitting. The older character may be able to do more stuff.. fly a wider range of ships, or do mining/research well.. but you can be just as good as they are at the ships/fittings you focus on.
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Scake
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Posted - 2006.03.15 21:33:00 -
[7]
These all play a far more important role in the outcome of combat encounters than skillpoints do:
A lot of newer players have similar worries, you just have to think outside the box a little and understand that in eve combat is very rarely 1 vs. 1 and theyÆre are many, many roles that need filling in group combat, all with varying levels of sp required.
Apart from the above you have to also consider that even if that 2 year veteran has 30million sp normally only a limited amount of those skillpoints are taking effect as certain skills areas only have an impact on certain ships, so if you specialise your character you can get to a stage in whatever ship you choose to fly where you are on a par sp wise for that ship.
Just remember that skillpoint totals are very misleading, for example a lot of the older players have trained in multiple races ships so, again, when flying one races ships all the sp invested in another races is moot.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.03.15 22:54:00 -
[8]
Im agreeing with all of this. And 2 guys with low skill points will have a big chance of beating 1 guy with better skills. Team up and have fun taking out the veterans.
--- "Automatic override. Manual control overridden by autopilot. Please wait for operation to complete. You can override the automatic autopilot override in 28 seconds. Then you can make it wait" |
Ademaro Imre
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Posted - 2006.03.15 23:00:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Lormus One thing is making me headaches. Players wich started 2 years before me will always be ahead of me. How can i have equality when figthing a pirate wich is 2 years older then i am. Isnt he superior all the time? Doesnt this skill system have a big problem that is that newer players will always stay behind?
This skill system uses real time so older player have an advantage newer ones never can catch upto right?
Regards.... Lormus.
Eve is like a Union, where the biggest thging that determines your future, is senority.
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Ademaro Imre
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Posted - 2006.03.15 23:04:00 -
[10]
Another question is if players at a certain point are still training skills, because of pod insurance. Players that are uber trained - are workign on dreadnaughts, carriers, and if not already, Hulk skills. Other pilots with lots of senority if you will, are training different race ships and weapons. So in terms of combat, there might be somewhat of a ceiling that is hit. But - no matter what - there will always be a set number maximim training points that can go into a ship - and the modules that are in it - and the support skills.
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votrian alpha
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Posted - 2006.03.15 23:49:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Lormus One thing is making me headaches. Players wich started 2 years before me will always be ahead of me. How can i have equality when figthing a pirate wich is 2 years older then i am. Isnt he superior all the time? Doesnt this skill system have a big problem that is that newer players will always stay behind?
This skill system uses real time so older player have an advantage newer ones never can catch upto right?
Regards.... Lormus.
Just to add my two isk. EVE isn't a numbers game, you have to let that go - just cause a character has 20M SP and you have 5M SP doesn't automatically make him better. Of course, a pilot who has character with 20M should have played long enough to get experience and skills at playing EVE. Its this that usually beats another pilot.
Here's an example: been playing for 1.5years and I have a decent character. With the new Blood characters, I decided to try and get a new Jin-Mei character. I have been training him up and with only 400K skill points, I am doing stuff that my 17M SP can only just do. How come? Experience -> I know certain tricks, weaknesses and strengths that took 1.5 years to gain. The 400K SP pilot has the basic minimum in certain skill areas and nothing else. Its a focused character and it rocks.
So my point? You can give a new player a pilot character with 10M SP and he can go up 1 v 1 with a 2 year vet now playing a 500K SP pilot and I know I would put my money on the vet.
New pilots will also be at disadvantage to the vets, that is true - BUT its not all due to the SPs. Experience, team work and a bit of luck and things even up. I reckon, a pilot with 6 months playing experience (not just through mining!) should be good enough to take on a vet, you may not win all the time but you will win some of the time and the odds get better; the more you try.
I would welcome a couple of new pilots to my corp -> we do a bit of PvP and I am sure within a few days they would be very effective (and feared) tacklers and super useful to any corp. A bit of a ramble, but there you go.
My two isk.
Fly Safe.
Votrian Alpha UNION AEROSPACE
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Deileon
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Posted - 2006.03.16 00:35:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Lormus One thing is making me headaches. Players wich started 2 years before me will always be ahead of me. How can i have equality when figthing a pirate wich is 2 years older then i am. Isnt he superior all the time? Doesnt this skill system have a big problem that is that newer players will always stay behind?
This skill system uses real time so older player have an advantage newer ones never can catch upto right?
Regards.... Lormus.
People quit, so as time goes on more players that were older than you will be gone. You also have access to advanced learnings they didn't, so the training time before the release of advanced learnings counted for less. You could also be Achura or Khanid, new bloodlines which are stronger than any of the older bloodlines (read my thread on stat suggestions.) But overall yes, you are still at a disadvantage. But that just means you can't be better at EVERYTHING. It doesn't take 2 years of skills to be good in combat though, and a lot is strategy...
They say bananas are a dish best served cold... |
vylana
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Posted - 2006.03.16 02:31:00 -
[13]
I think the new bloodlines help with this a lot as well. If you roll an Achura or a Khanid, and once you get equally good implants as the older players, you'll be learning faster than they are (since the old characters had less optimal bloodlines). Over time, the skillpoint gap will decrease.
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Sarai Atvar
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Posted - 2006.03.16 03:26:00 -
[14]
In addition to experience, I'd also like to add the money effect.
Let's say you're a 6-month old 5 million SP character with 4 million in Gunnery, and you go up against a 2 year-old character with 20 million SP and 4 million in Gunnery. Now, though you may have the same SP in the relevant category, he's still probably got the edge in experience. This is where the money factor comes in. If you have a better-equipped ship than he does, all the strategy in the world won't save him. -----------------
[ The Coreli Corporation Mainframe ] |
Brimmic
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Posted - 2006.03.16 18:54:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Karol Kei No. The point of Eve is it is different. You have to let go of what you have learned in other games first, then you can understand it. Eve is not linear there is no absolute ahead and behind.
Hehehe. "You must unlearn what you have learned." -Yoda
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4 LOM
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Posted - 2006.03.16 20:21:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Sarai Atvar In addition to experience, I'd also like to add the money effect.
Let's say you're a 6-month old 5 million SP character with 4 million in Gunnery, and you go up against a 2 year-old character with 20 million SP and 4 million in Gunnery. Now, though you may have the same SP in the relevant category, he's still probably got the edge in experience. This is where the money factor comes in. If you have a better-equipped ship than he does, all the strategy in the world won't save him.
I disagree, strategy can beat expensive fitting and skills(depends how bad yours are, talking diffrence between average and really good) any day in eve. i have been beaten bye people in worse ships then me with less expensive mods and visa versa. creative fitting can be the difference between victory and defeat. using mods like tracking disruptors can change a one on one fight drasticly. its not all about skill points and expensive modulas. it is in my experiance 50% about strategy in pvp.then 40% skill poitns and 10% expensive mods (you need high skill points to use alot of the facier mods, so its rated higher).
also people have said you need to toss out the ideas from other mmorg this is true. overall high skill points does not make for a god. you just need to specilize in one area and before you know it you will be very good in that one area and can easily compete with people that have 2-5x your skill points. what they will have over you still is exeriance and knowlage they will know what fittings work and will know how to use them. eve may look like a simple fighting interface, lock activate moduls wait. but its not and if you treat it as that you will be killed, and often. there is alot more to combat then that.
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Master OlavPancrazio
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Posted - 2006.03.17 06:56:00 -
[17]
I don't mind always being behind. It would be nice if they possibly allowed newer chars to gain sp at a higher rate then older chars so mabye in 2/3/4 years, a new char would catch up. Once they catch up there sp rate is reduced to the same as the oldies.
Regardless, the biggest drawback from this skill system is it almost forces you to just be bored for 1-2 months training basic skills/learning skills so you can do stuff 3-4 months down the road. If I hadn't been prepared for the patience it takes to start having fun in this game, I would of quit.
Also, instead of a level grind eve just replaces the grind with isk. Sure you can have 50 million sp, but you still need money to afford the bs's or dread or whatever else you are flying.
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franny
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Posted - 2006.03.17 07:31:00 -
[18]
we are in an alliance war with Black Reign Syndicate, and most of their members have more SP than a large portion of ours this is the quote from TCC's alliance boards
Originally by: Argonaught Take a look at the Ishtar kill myself, Saint and Kehl had, between the 3 of us I think we have the same skills as one of thier pvp guys...the farmers rose up and smote the demon HAC that most run from when they show up in system.
1 BS, 1 Thorax and an Inty all with t1 weapons fought a raven and a HAC and kicked arse
another thing to remember, SP mean nothing when your jammed ----------- /wtb Eris in a cage Sorry, she's not for sale. You can get Imaran for free though - Wrangler can I at least get someone decent? Sure, I'll let you know when I find one - Wrangler |
nahtoh
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Posted - 2006.03.17 15:04:00 -
[19]
Well as others have have stated SPs are not everything, once you max out a skill tree it maxed out.
Fought a ex-moo pilot to alost a stand still once we were both in HACs his was allmost fully Tech 2 fitted if not fully tech 2 fitted mine had some t2 mods, he got out in 50% struture poping me on his warp out and he fired first.
Was my first attempt to PvP in my ishtar he was in a vagabond. Granted I lost but it was a close fight and he probably had 3 times my SP total and his PvP experiance was far in exess of mine.
So catch up no, be compitive on the other hand yes... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |
Heikki
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Posted - 2006.03.17 15:09:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Lormus Players wich started 2 years before me will always be ahead of me.
I don't want to repeat the excellention points in the other posts, so just to remind:
Some characters will always be ahead of yours, but as a player can you can opt to grind (or outsmart) enough ISK, and buy high skilled character legally -> new players can catch up.
-Lasse
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Remedial
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Posted - 2006.03.17 16:08:00 -
[21]
There is nothing that a group of older players can do that a larger group of newer players cannot do.
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Centurin
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Posted - 2006.03.17 16:58:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Centurin on 17/03/2006 17:00:20
Originally by: Remedial There is nothing that a group of older players can do that a larger group of newer players cannot do.
Hmm. Tech 2 Guns come to mind.
Also, being in a gang is the biggest factor. A new player has no chance 1v1 against a 3 year old character in a HAC with all T2 mods. Can you help in fleet battles? Sure. But don't expect to be a force until you have at least 5mil SPs.
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Gretchen Dawntreader
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Posted - 2006.03.17 17:36:00 -
[23]
The topic poster assumes these veterans have spent no time skilling up alts. Now there are intriguing new bloodlines, bet a few of the most fearsome are playing around with them. Also, people at the top quit and go play something else...not all, but always some.
2.5 years from now, the noob of today will be the person the noob of tomorrow will post threads like this about. Will the 2.5 year olds of today be the 5 year olds of tomorrow? Maybe...like 5 or 6 players. Other titles move the player base around.
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Karol Kei
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Posted - 2006.03.17 17:37:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Centurin Edited by: Centurin on 17/03/2006 17:00:20
Originally by: Remedial There is nothing that a group of older players can do that a larger group of newer players cannot do.
Hmm. Tech 2 Guns come to mind.
Guns like skill points are a tool. Taking down an enemy ship with those guns is what they are used for. Whether you die for tech 1 or tech 2 guns makes little difference.
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Netto
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Posted - 2006.03.17 18:42:00 -
[25]
Some of the top guys on killboards roll with tech1 guns, and have under 6 mil skill points. It all depends on how you fly your ship. Fearless and smart and you'll do well no matter what your skillpoints are. I've met people with over 35 mil skill points, mostly in pvp related skills, and they are just too shy.
Aggressiveness and quick thinking will take you far in this game.
A good friend of mine started out with a carebear, mined enough money to just buy a pvp char and there ya have it.
Netto Buy my 11+ mil sp character! Celestial Fleet - We care. |
SonOfAGhost
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Posted - 2006.03.17 20:01:00 -
[26]
People have taken out vets while still on their 14-day trial.
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Asuram
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Posted - 2006.03.17 23:34:00 -
[27]
Remember after a certain amount of SPs reached, the gap between a vet and a regular player is not that much.
A person may have 40mil SPs, but thats divided into many skills. Although this depends on the player, you can bet that all these skills are spread out to skills like trade, learning, and all those different classes of ships.
So if you are fighting a BS, the BS and combat skills are effecting the battle, all the extra skills are not. If you have been focusing on BS and combat skills too, you can match the vets.
They would be more experienced and have better modules, but SP wise, you should be pretty even in that battle. So it would be up to you to learn and procure better items.
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Tripoli
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Posted - 2006.03.18 06:18:00 -
[28]
People obsess with their combat skills as newbies too much. A rookie ship can take out a vet in a cruiser equipped just wrong for the occasion. It's all about your setup and how you use it, not so much about skills. ---
Skill Collector Level 275 skills trained. |
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