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Rollaz
AirHogs Zulu People
49
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Posted - 2014.01.05 06:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm the proud owner of 16gb of RAM, and although there was a lengthy thread about why you shouldn't bother with a RAMdisk for eve, I want to install one anyway and test it thoroughly in large fleet battles. I suspect that it will make a difference and I'm all about finding different ways to speed my system up.
I'd like to keep this thread on the topic of cache files and RamDisk usage with Eve and not on other places to speed up the game as we all know a good graphics card is a must... mmmkay?
At first, I downloaded the 4 mb EVE installer and dropped it on my ramdisk and the installer complained that it needed 22gb of free space for the install ?!? Last I heard Eve needed 12gb of space, so what's up wit dat CCP?
I have a PCIe SSD drive to load my ramdisk images from ( I plan to use a RamDisk for each of my games) and load times for a 10gb disk is about 14 secs, so it's a one time startup hit that pays over and over, with Radeon's RamDisk software ($15 USD) I can save an unlimited number of different game installations on my SSD's.
So here are the topics I'd love some feedback on....
1. I'd like to hear from anyone who is ACTUALLY using a RAMDisk with Eve, what were the installation issues/workarounds etc. 2. Will I actually have to have a +22gb Ramdisk to install eve 3. Can I get the performance increases I'm looking for by only moving the cache files (I'm using Windows 8.1, so I can use the new folder "relocate" option to have Windows look on my RamDisk for the files.) But I also can't seem to find a way to tell windows to relocate a user created folder, only seems to be able to relocate system made files.... 4. any other RamDisk tips/hints (OTHER then don't use one lolz)
Thanks I hope to get some yummy tips from all you bleeding edgers out there...
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
871
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Posted - 2014.01.05 07:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
What performance increases are you trying to get? If you want to be able to run a higher graphics level, I expect you will get basically no improvement because that is your GPU mostly. Unless your GPU is vastly better than your HD tech anyway. If you want to run a full overview showing drones that might help a bit (and cover your screen in drones and show nothing useful). If you want faster server responses, that's nothing to do with anything about your computer.
So, I'm not sure what performance increases you expect to be getting? |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
1358
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Posted - 2014.01.05 08:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
If by ramdisk you mean your comp using your harddrive as a sort of psuedo memory like the old dos days smartdrive.exe I think you a) with 16gb won't ever find yourself running out of memory to the extent you would need a ramdisk and b) if you did run out of 16gb of memory be better to find out why your pc is broken...
If by ramdrive you mean sshd, no idea... |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
18723
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Posted - 2014.01.05 08:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
It all depends on what part of the process you want to speed up.
If it's the loading of static and cached data, then you can use junctions to point the EVE cache directories toGǪ pretty much anywhere you want. The main problem here is to figure out a way to save and restore that data to a permanent location to avoid data loss. In this case, you won't need much space.
If it's in the loading of game assets, then you can pretty much just copy the EVE install over to the ramdisk and run it from there. It's reasonably self-contained and makes no real assumptions about where it's installed. In this case, you'll need a big chunk of memory to cover the whole install volume. I'm not entirely sure how much it is on Windows, though.
The 22GB mentioned in the installer sound an awful lot like the space needed for the installer + installed files + temporary update files + cached and static data. Still, 16GB is probably too little for what you want to do.
Infinity Ziona wrote:If by ramdisk you mean your comp using your harddrive as a sort of psuedo memory like the old dos days smartdrive.exe I think you a) with 16gb won't ever find yourself running out of memory to the extent you would need a ramdisk and b) if you did run out of 16gb of memory be better to find out why your pc is broken...
If by ramdrive you mean sshd, no idea... By ramdisk, he probably means ramdisk GÇö using your ram as a disk. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
knobber Jobbler
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
313
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Posted - 2014.01.05 08:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
A RAMdisk allocates a section of RAM as a drive, where you can mount caches and TEMP files etc. Since its faster to write/read to/off RAM you get a performance gain for those sorts of folders.
Since EVE has a cache folder, mounting it on a RAM disk will have some benefit even over an SSD. The only thing to note here is start up and shut down times are slower as the RAM disk has to load and save an image file. I don't think it will help in fleet battles though, the cache is used for logs, portraits etc not ship models.
I tried it for a while using Dataram RAMdisk but it didn't have much appreciable affect on EVE. If you have an older SSD sticking cache and TEMP files on a RAMdisk will save on the number of writes being made and might extend the life of the SSD and some system performance will be a little faster. |
Angelica Dreamstar
Epic Boo Bees
49
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Posted - 2014.01.05 10:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:If by ramdisk you mean your comp using your harddrive as a sort of psuedo memory like the old dos days smartdrive.exe I think you a) with 16gb won't ever find yourself running out of memory to the extent you would need a ramdisk and b) if you did run out of 16gb of memory be better to find out why your pc is broken...
If by ramdrive you mean sshd, no idea... Cute to see how clueless you are. Shows how much you really know. it's okay to look... ;) |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
1359
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Posted - 2014.01.05 10:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:If by ramdisk you mean your comp using your harddrive as a sort of psuedo memory like the old dos days smartdrive.exe I think you a) with 16gb won't ever find yourself running out of memory to the extent you would need a ramdisk and b) if you did run out of 16gb of memory be better to find out why your pc is broken...
If by ramdrive you mean sshd, no idea... Cute to see how clueless you are. Shows how much you really know. except im correct |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
18724
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Posted - 2014.01.05 10:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:except im correct GǪexcept for the part where you think a RAM Disk means anything other than a standard RAM Disk and instead confuse it with virtual ram and a solid-state disk and mix it all up with smartdrv, which was a disk-caching driver.
All that when it's pretty clear that the OP is talking about, you know, a RAM Drive. Hell, he even lists the software he intends to use (which, now that I look at it, solves the problem of getting the data onto and off of the drive between uses GÇö neat). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Angelica Dreamstar
Epic Boo Bees
49
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 11:09:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:except im correct GǪexcept for the part where you think a RAM Disk means anything other than a standard RAM Disk and instead confuse it with virtual ram and a solid-state disk and mix it all up with smartdrv, which was a disk-caching driver. All that when it's pretty clear that the OP is talking about, you know, a RAM Drive. Hell, he even lists the software he intends to use (which, now that I look at it, solves the problem of getting the data onto and off of the drive between uses GÇö neat). Hey hey now ... don't confuse easily googleable facts with the virtual reality she got in her head, sweety.
Nice behind you have, btw. ;) it's okay to look... ;) |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
16411
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Posted - 2014.01.05 12:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Angelica Dreamstar wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:If by ramdisk you mean your comp using your harddrive as a sort of psuedo memory like the old dos days smartdrive.exe I think you a) with 16gb won't ever find yourself running out of memory to the extent you would need a ramdisk and b) if you did run out of 16gb of memory be better to find out why your pc is broken...
If by ramdrive you mean sshd, no idea... Cute to see how clueless you are. Shows how much you really know. except im correct Oh good lord, just stop.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9957
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 12:34:00 -
[11] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:except im correct
except you're not and you're piping up and spewing out totally unrelated computing terms like if you were on a detective show
unless you want to tell us how you could possibly think that the OP is confusing an SSD - a dedicated storage device - and a software ramdisk Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9957
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 12:39:00 -
[12] - Quote
im going to enhance a python shell in ruby and compile a visual dns trace on ur mac address lol
also op tippia and knobbler basically answered your question entirely just ignore the rest of the thread Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation Boarderline Cartel
1644
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 15:01:00 -
[13] - Quote
Of course there's always arcane windows programming to consider, as the actual OS might start swapping memory to disk despite your ram disk for whatever reason (alignment of the planets, Ballmer's trouser size, Windows 8 sales, etc). In fact make the ram disk large enough and you're pretty much guaranteed to have more and more windows page swaps. Has to do with blocks of memory being handed out to processes by the OS, which prefers to give the largest contiguous block it can to any process that needs it. At one point the memory starts fragmenting and you start allocating blocks from one side and the other of your reserved ramdisk memory and fun things start to happen. It's all pretty transparent to the user, but the OS will start needed more and more virtual memory even if it's sitting on a pile of free RAM.
This is all very theoretical though I doubt you'd notice much with your client :) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
18728
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 15:07:00 -
[14] - Quote
GǪalso, there's the hilarious recursion of making windows swap to a RAM drive when running out of RAM. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Spurty
V0LTA Triumvirate.
1178
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 19:07:00 -
[15] - Quote
I have a batch file somewhere that does all of the copying and creating of ram drive, format, setup junctions etc.
You just need to remember to run it before you try to start up eve or you get sort of stuck (just need to kill a process).
Will hunt it down for you if you want it. Only reason I don't use it is not sure if I like windows 8.1 yet. GûÇGûêGûÇ GûêGûÇGûê GûÇGûêGûÇ-á-á-á-á-á GûêGûÇGûê GûêGûÇGûê GûêGûÇGûêGûÇGûê GûêGûæGûê GûæGûêGûæ GûêGûÇGûä GûæGûêGûæ-á-á-á-á-á GûêGûÇGûê GûêGûÇGûä GûêGûæGûêGûæGûê GûÇGûêGûÇ GûæGûÇGûæ GûÇGûæGûÇ GûÇGûÇGûÇGûæGûÇ GûÇGûæGûÇ GûÇGûæGûÇ GûÇGûæGûÇGûæGûÇ GûæGûÇGûæ |
Jasmine Assasin
State War Academy Caldari State
146
|
Posted - 2014.01.05 19:18:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tippia wrote:GǪalso, there's the hilarious recursion of making windows swap to a RAM drive when running out of RAM.
When I explain my RAM drive to people I get the "Deer in headlights" look sometimes because of this exact reason.
Of course it works like a champ and you get around the "image" issue by using it as a FAT32 drive instead of NTFS (no slow shutdown/bootup, file created on the fly at startup), although it limits the file size but I run a 4GB pagefile in there no sweat and have another 2GB for random TEMP/TMP folders and such to save the SSD. Works great for that.
Unless it's a very simple game you're going to need more than 16GB of RAM to make it all work IMHO, start with at least 32 and 64 would be even better. And at the end I'm not sure it's worth it if you have SSD drive really, especially in an online game where there are so many other bottlenecks to performance. |
Chinwe Rhei
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
71
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Posted - 2014.01.05 19:43:00 -
[17] - Quote
Seriously don't use a RAM drive. Ramdrives were popular back when the ratio of disk speed to RAM speed was a LOT worse than today and memory management was a lot simpler.
The system basically already automagically manages disk and RAM memory together as efficiently and safely as it thinks it should - the read/write cache keeps the most recently accessed data in memory if RAM is available and the memory manager swaps portions of RAM to disk if it needs more available RAM. Disk cache + virtual memory do the work of the old RAM drive except transparently and smarter and those are the things you should tweak for speed.
While it might be possible to gain a bit of speed boost with a RAM drive over a SSD, if you're inexperienced most likely you will see very little or may even slow down your system because your RAM drive causes disk swapping or because your EvE cache never gets updated because you always load the old image. If there's a speed boost it's probably going to be at login/station undock and similar things and definetly not during a space-battle where all the assets will likely already be in-memory - if you experience disk access during a large battle it's because of disk swapping and a RAM drive would make that worse |
Rollaz
AirHogs Zulu People
49
|
Posted - 2014.03.30 23:44:00 -
[18] - Quote
So I tried using 32gb of memory but couldn't get my system to be stable with Eve on full graphics, I'll have to try other sticks and see what happens.
Thanks to some of the posters who read and commented on my OP, I've liked those that made a difference to me, but I'd still like to find out if anyone is actually using a RAM disk with Eve... Only seemed like one of you were and didn't see much difference. I'll post my results after I get other sticks... |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
4776
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 00:04:00 -
[19] - Quote
Not bad guys. You got four whole posts into the thread before starting in on each other and tossing the OP out the window.
I've set up other applications on a ramdisk but not EVE. I've found that, in general, any advantages gained are negated by the hassle involved. Look around tech forums and try some simpler solutions before going that route, in my opinion.
Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass! |
Solecist Project
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
11
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Posted - 2014.03.31 01:40:00 -
[20] - Quote
My brain tells me that playing EVE from the SSD outperforms your solution by far.
Is your idea doable? Yes.
Is there any upside, compared to using an SSD? No.
Necro. |
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Rollaz
AirHogs Zulu People
49
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Posted - 2014.03.31 03:20:00 -
[21] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:My brain tells me that playing EVE from the SSD outperforms your solution by far.
Is your idea doable? Yes.
Is there any upside, compared to using an SSD? No.
Necro.
I already have a PCIe SSD drive for my OS, I'm looking to add RamDrive with 32gb of ram to fully load the game on Ram instead of on the drive... Ram IS faster so I'm just wondering what kind of increase and where I'd see improvements. (under what circumstances) |
Pew Terror
Green Associates TITANS.
209
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 03:39:00 -
[22] - Quote
I played around with ramdisks for gaming, but in the end its more hassle than use. The performance increase is measurable, but i couldnt see a competetive edge with EvE (It didnt affect grid load times at all whereas platter HD vs SSD was very noticeable).
And you will need more then 16gig RAM, thats kinda low end for that. |
masternerdguy
State Protectorate Caldari State
1536
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 04:10:00 -
[23] - Quote
Tippia wrote:It all depends on what part of the process you want to speed up. If it's the loading of static and cached data, then you can use junctions to point the EVE cache directories toGǪ pretty much anywhere you want. The main problem here is to figure out a way to save and restore that data to a permanent location to avoid data loss. In this case, you won't need much space. If it's in the loading of game assets, then you can pretty much just copy the EVE install over to the ramdisk and run it from there. It's reasonably self-contained and makes no real assumptions about where it's installed. In this case, you'll need a big chunk of memory to cover the whole install volume. I'm not entirely sure how much it is on Windows, though. The 22GB mentioned in the installer sound an awful lot like the space needed for the installer + installed files + temporary update files + cached and static data. Still, 16GB is probably too little for what you want to do. Infinity Ziona wrote:If by ramdisk you mean your comp using your harddrive as a sort of psuedo memory like the old dos days smartdrive.exe I think you a) with 16gb won't ever find yourself running out of memory to the extent you would need a ramdisk and b) if you did run out of 16gb of memory be better to find out why your pc is broken...
If by ramdrive you mean sshd, no idea... By ramdisk, he probably means ramdisk GÇö using your ram as a disk.
It's easy to do in the linux world
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UnionFS
You can combine any file systems into one virtual file system that spans many types of devices. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Malcolm Shinhwa
Bad Touches
1651
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 05:26:00 -
[24] - Quote
Slap an SSD in. Copy Eve to it. Job's a good 'un. Anything else is way more hassle than it is worth IMO. I know violence isn't the answer. I got it wrong on purpose. |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
2146
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Posted - 2014.03.31 05:52:00 -
[25] - Quote
This has become another ego war thread.
Pity really. This is not a signature. |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
505
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Posted - 2014.03.31 08:54:00 -
[26] - Quote
Rollaz wrote:Solecist Project wrote:My brain tells me that playing EVE from the SSD outperforms your solution by far.
Is your idea doable? Yes.
Is there any upside, compared to using an SSD? No.
Necro. I already have a PCIe SSD drive for my OS, I'm looking to add RamDrive with 32gb of ram to fully load the game on Ram instead of on the drive... Ram IS faster so I'm just wondering what kind of increase and where I'd see improvements. (under what circumstances) tbh, the moment you will see a difference will be when loading assets like opening a hangar with a shitload if items.
that's about the only thing you might notice an increase, and i am not even sure it would be noticeable unless you are close to the item # limit of a hangar.
i do have a corp hangar that is often at that limit, and it doesn't take that long to load, 1-2 second top, running eve from a simple crucial M4 256Gb ssd with 16GB DDR3 and a 2600k.
so it is possible to put the eve folder on a RAM drive, easier is to install on a regular disk, then creat ramdrive, mount ramdrive, copy eve folder to it, start eve from ramdrive, then either setup you pref or copy them from a backup and you are done. (check %appdata%\eve\ for that, the rest is pretty straight forward, ignore/delete the cache, the important settings are a few Mbytes)
for updates, you might have to update on regular disk then copy again from HDD/SSD to RAM drive.
this is the easiest way, now imao, not worth it for eve, on my end i didn't noticed any noticeable gain in performances. |
Caviar Liberta
Moira. Villore Accords
504
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 14:00:00 -
[27] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:If by ramdisk you mean your comp using your harddrive as a sort of psuedo memory like the old dos days smartdrive.exe I think you a) with 16gb won't ever find yourself running out of memory to the extent you would need a ramdisk and b) if you did run out of 16gb of memory be better to find out why your pc is broken...
If by ramdrive you mean sshd, no idea...
I think he means ramdrive ie turning part of his memory into a virtual drive. I wouldn't think you would see any performance increase any more doing that since most drives are as fast as system memory now. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
3348
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 14:17:00 -
[28] - Quote
Caviar Liberta wrote:I think he means ramdrive ie turning part of his memory into a virtual drive. I wouldn't think you would see any performance increase any more doing that since most drives are as fast as system memory now. What you just described would be faster than the fastest SSD, as SSD are currently limited by the SATA III connection.
Typical DDR3 now runs at 2133 million transactions per second, with each one being 8 bytes. SATA III is around 550 MB/s (6 Gbits/s with 10b8 encoding and overhead)
Now that being stated, SSD are pretty frellin' fast. |
Lucas Kell
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
2970
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 14:39:00 -
[29] - Quote
OP, do you understand how computers work on a technical level or have you just followed some guides and heard some buzzwords? If it's the latter, you are going to struggle and in either case are likely to just be wasting your money. A RAMdisk just means that you can speed up your file IO, as the hard drive doesn't need to fetch data, it can all be grabbed straight from the ram. Now that sounds great and all, but when playing games you are not generally waiting on file IO, you're waiting on the GPU, CPU or paging your ram. Now seeing that you are going to be using the majority of your Ram as a hard drive, that's likely to increase paging, meaning your system will be dumping memory to the hard drive.
What you would be better off doing is to keep the installed game running on your SSD, moving your game cache to the RAMdisk and disabling paging (if you are certain that your aren't going to be running enough applications side by side to exceed your RAM limit).
That said, the chances of you seeing any improvement beyond initial load times and first time caching is slim. It certainly won't help with large scale battles as that's not generally the game waiting on the hard drive. The Indecisive Noob - A new EVE Fan Blog for news and stuff. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. |
Muestereate
Minions LLC
269
|
Posted - 2014.03.31 14:42:00 -
[30] - Quote
ASUS and INTERL have a solution that turns your whole ssd into a hybrid. SSD is faster but the hybrid solution of course adjusts to changes in what your playing on the fly without having to move programs around. I'm not sure I recall eve using the disk after intitial load So ramdisk even swapping out for client changes isn't going to be the best use of that memory. You need to be doing video editing or very large format photshop manipulations. Server throughputs are affected by memory too. |
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