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Da Death
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Posted - 2006.03.20 10:17:00 -
[1]
I think it would be good to nerf the concentrated fire in fleet battles. It would prolong the battle (more RUSH!) and could have help the use of tanking capabilities of different ships. Also I think it is not wise to go with expensive t2 gear in fleet battles where we cant tank anything due to concentrated fire. Tt would give the best pilots their rewards for their 'know how', how to fight.
If you don't know what I talking about, please look at Nyphur's site which explaines it more thoroughly- click here
Selling: Absolution - Curse - Gleam S - BPC's - check my bio
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Ishquar Teh'Sainte
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Posted - 2006.03.20 10:31:00 -
[2]
Some of my corp/alliance mates are using the term "Space Chess" when we talk about Fleet Battles ... and i think it's quite accurate
at the moment - a single skilled pilot (sp wise as well experience wise) won't be so much of an impact on the outcoming of the battle as like a skilled Fleet Commander
the FC is the master of puppets - while the rest are the F1-F8 drones _________________________________________
Originally by: Skellibjalla Life is a garden of perceptions. Pick your fruit.
Originally by: Tool - Hush I can't say what I want to,even if I'm not serious. |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.20 10:42:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 20/03/2006 10:41:53 I just don't see this happening. It doesn't make much sense, and it would make fleet battles even more confusing.
On the other hand, I have a number of ideas that fleet commanders can implement to make Fleet Battles more effective and fun, while doubling or tripling their kills. Maybe you can convo me if you're interested...
[23] Member: Official Forum Warrior
What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
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Wheya
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Posted - 2006.03.20 11:13:00 -
[4]
With current game mechanics (WCS, instas, ECM) it's very hard to catch your prey as a lone pilot. That's one reason why we see so much ganking. There is simply no other way.
Nevertheless I am a keen supporter of the 'disminishing returns' idea. Yes, it will make fleet battles more complex. Skilled groups with lots of experience will learn and take advantage.
Before CCP can implement diminishing returns they must get rid of instas, wcs and change EW (ECM used as a mega wcs). Preferable they should do both at the same time. This would be a huge change of game mechanics that could screw PvP in EVE if not proper implemented.
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Constantine Arcanum
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Posted - 2006.03.20 11:21:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Wheya
Before CCP can implement diminishing returns they must get rid of instas, wcs and change EW (ECM used as a mega wcs). Preferable they should do both at the same time. This would be a huge change of game mechanics that could screw PvP in EVE if not proper implemented.
There are already too many posts about whiners complaining because of the issues associated with WCS and EW! Shut up! ----------------------------------------------- Guys, we win some and we lose some, but please, can we win this one? THIS SIG R UNHACKABLE
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.03.20 11:21:00 -
[6]
Nah, but what would be interesting would be if ship survival time was shifted to hit points instead of tanking ability. A few ways to do this is to either increase hit points by a lot (and possibly ever so slightly increase damage) or increase number of shots that miss. Currently I find it slightly... boring that all shots hit (when standing still). Maybe it's mostly visual stuff I'm getting at here, that I'd like shots to be burst fire (effects), however there's also the the oddity that shooting stuff at range has no effect on your ability to hit, even though the target is much "smaller" at long range. A battleship at 150km range is a lot smaller and harder for a turret to pinpoint than an interceptor at 500m.
Originally by: KilROCK
Originally by: Arkanor Gallente missileboat might be cool.
Pod yourself till you got no skills.[ |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.20 11:23:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Wheya With current game mechanics (WCS, instas, ECM) it's very hard to catch your prey as a lone pilot. That's one reason why we see so much ganking. There is simply no other way.
I get plenty of kills without WCS, instas, or EW. So I don't know what you're talking about.
[23] Member: Official Forum Warrior
What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
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Waut
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Posted - 2006.03.20 11:27:00 -
[8]
I hope it will never come. Everything is fine as it is.
Plan for galaxy domination: Step 1. Steal lots of underpants Step 2. ... Step 3. Get declared as Eve Emperor |
Tobias Sjodin
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Posted - 2006.03.20 11:38:00 -
[9]
Short answer: No, I definitely not want this.
Longer version: There is absolutely no sense whatsoever in having multiple attacks on one single target do less damage, just because they're firing at the same target at the same time.
The ends don't justify the means here. That's how I see it. Picking out the most dangerous target, and coordinating fire to it - is a tactic that shouldn't be nerfed because someone wants longer battles.
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Wheya
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Posted - 2006.03.20 11:47:00 -
[10]
Dark Shikari. I can get some kills against those that are willing to fight. Against the others I would need 2 sensor boosters, several warpscramblers, plenty ECCM and a webifier. I am glad there are still people out there who take a risk in combat and fight in situations where it's not clear who will win.
There are many others who care for killboard statistics. They get the kills with gank fleets and avoid every situation that has a risk. Someone who knows what he is doing is untouchable (in empire space) in a frigate if he avoids combat. What I would love to see is more unconsentual combat but under more fair conditions. Nerf the options to escape and nerf the options to gank at the same time.
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Voculus
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Posted - 2006.03.20 11:47:00 -
[11]
Quote: I think it would be good to nerf the concentrated fire in fleet battles.
That just doesn't make any sense. You may as well form the ships up in stationary rows, and have them take turns firing at the ship directly in front of them.
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Max Teranous
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Posted - 2006.03.20 11:47:00 -
[12]
The article is basically saying that it wants tanking to matter in fleet fights. This is a fair enough thought, however in practice even with a concentrated fire nerf it isn't viable, just because of fitting requirements. To fit a full rack of tech 2 long range guns to a BS needs a fitting mod to start with, so you'd probably need a second fitting mod to get the grid for a repairer of some sort. You need to add hardeners, and cap mods to run it for any time at all. And you still need to fit 1 or 2 sensor boosters just to target your enemy !
Max
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Cvuos
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Posted - 2006.03.20 12:31:00 -
[13]
Creating some kind of arbitrary barrier to damage dealing is stepping into hold-my-hand-land in my opinion, particularly if it's only for the sake of combat lasting longer. "Know how" will always be a great help in winning any kind of battle, but when the game mechanics start branching off into this it just leads to more metagaming.
Gathering a big force and concentrating firepower is the most basic of battlefield tactics. Eve's combat has remarkable similarities with real combat tactics, way beyond any "cast spell, drink potion" thing out there, anything that diminshes this causes the game as a whole to suffer.
Besides, the thrill of PvP is a whole lot more than activate tank -> F1-F8 -> wait -> flashing inbox, even hour-long maneuvering without a single shot fired has excitement and satisfaction.
As for soloers not getting kills. I have little sympathy for that, even if I've missed many myself. If you remove the option to avoid combat, you eventually remove the opportunity to get solo combat, because there will be too much risk in travelling alone. This discourages solo 0.0 travel and encourages use of hauler/scout alts in Empire wars.
No one will accept too much risk for too little reward, the very heart of Eve. No one will give you a sympathy kill just because you're sulking alone at a gate with two points of scramble.
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Ephemeron
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Posted - 2006.03.20 12:36:00 -
[14]
Nerfing concentrated fire is a horrible idea
Long long time ago, I have suggested tech 3 type of conbination mods that would have the result of scattering concentrated fire.. no one cared then, no one cares now
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Miss Overlord
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Posted - 2006.03.20 12:42:00 -
[15]
ok so u get called primary in PVP all the time then fit a good tank and be done with it
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Roshan longshot
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Posted - 2006.03.20 12:48:00 -
[16]
Ok so your saying My ten guys against your ten guys... And we cant target just one ship at a time? That would be kinda dumb....
Of all the nerfs that have been done to this game...THAT one would be the worst.
Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter pirate or mixture of them all.
[i]As read from the original box.
We are not ebil forum police, for one thing I don't have a hat :( - Cortes |
Lifewire
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Posted - 2006.03.20 12:54:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Lifewire on 20/03/2006 12:55:10 The concentrated fire nerf must come sooner or later - and with it a revision of damage output. Blobs are the sickness of EVE and need to be cured.
Blobs cause...
...boredome ...lag ...pure numbers are unbeatable ...more blobbing ...mass-napping alliances ...too big alliances
Blobs even makes the game experience for the blobbers themselves boring since ammassing these big fleets needs hours and hours without any action. Smaller battles are really cool in EVE while blob-festivals are usually only boring and stressing.
EVE was originally designed for corpsized battles and it works fine in "smaller battles", for example 20 vs 20. But EVE sucks much in 200 vs 200. Tactics are reduced to "all shoot named target". Lag is horrible. Time waste extreme! RL of players really suffers under this terms. They stay online for hours waiting for the action that finally mostly does not happen. Blobs are the mother of boredome. N00bs are forced by their alliances to blob and get a bad game experience. They get bored and quit so blobber alliances keep recruiting cannon food, wasting those people in their blobwars. Blobs cause smaller groups to be forced into anti-blobbing and napping other corps. In the end all are forced to use blobs.
The blob nerf and the concentrated fire nerf must come sooner or later - it¦s just the question how long it takes to get even the blobbers in a state where they experience EVE as too boring.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.20 13:13:00 -
[18]
"Longer version: There is absolutely no sense whatsoever in having multiple attacks on one single target do less damage, just because they're firing at the same target at the same time."
Well... there is some logic to that, actually.
I mean, picture ten guns shooting the same target. Chances are, more than single shell will hit roughly the same area (say, same turret or same hull section) ... if the first shell hitting that part of ship is enough to destroy it, then the second shell fired right after by another ship and landing there ... is pretty much wasted, there's nothing left to "kill" there.
Also (which was the main reason why RL combat typically had ships spread their fire rather than focus it on single target) with more than single ship shooting at the same target it becomes increasingly difficult to figure out whose shells actually missed in the last salvo, and who should correct their aiming to actually score a hit... leading to less accuracy in general.
This is aside from the whole "should focused fire be nerfed" discussion, though.
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Avon
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Posted - 2006.03.20 13:19:00 -
[19]
It will happen. The driving force is the desire to split blobs in to smaller gangs, and the tools are already promised.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Constantine Arcanum
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Posted - 2006.03.20 13:21:00 -
[20]
Limit the size of gangs by all means, just don't nerf focused fire. Please. Don't. ----------------------------------------------- Guys, we win some and we lose some, but please, can we win this one? THIS SIG R UNHACKABLE
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Shin Ra
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Posted - 2006.03.20 13:34:00 -
[21]
One of the things I never liked about fleet battles is how people call secondaries. When 50 people all lock you up you get ready to warp, so its a bit of a warning system. In small engagements, you can lock up everyone and thats cool.
Also, how cool would it be have 50 people with names ZZZ0000OOO00O0O0OOO0000O0O0O0O. How would u ever call that?
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Xanta
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Posted - 2006.03.20 13:34:00 -
[22]
nerf the scanner no names ftw \o/
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.20 13:50:00 -
[23]
"Also, how cool would it be have 50 people with names ZZZ0000OOO00O0O0OOO0000O0O0O0O. How would u ever call that?"
"sort overview by name, work the list top-down" ... you can't have two people named exactly the same, and sorting works the same for all game clients ;s
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Max Teranous
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Posted - 2006.03.20 14:47:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Shin Ra
Also, how cool would it be have 50 people with names ZZZ0000OOO00O0O0OOO0000O0O0O0O. How would u ever call that?
I'd say "That **** with the silly Z name". I think the fleet could figure that out
Max
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SengH
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Posted - 2006.03.20 15:09:00 -
[25]
could the op then explain how the hell were supposed to kill POSes, Stations and Capital ships without concentrating fire?
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Alexis DeTocqueville
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Posted - 2006.03.20 15:12:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Alexis DeTocqueville on 20/03/2006 15:14:20 Instead of fixing concentrated fire, how about creating friendly fire instead? This is the exact same problem that compelled real-world fleets to create the Line of Battle system, where every ship squared off with one of its equals so that they would avoid killing each other.
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2006.03.20 15:20:00 -
[27]
Quote: could the op then explain how the hell were supposed to kill POSes, Stations and Capital ships without concentrating fire?
I guess a concentrated fire nerf should not nerf 10 ships shooting at one, but it should force fleets of 50-10 ships to split their fire to not loose fleet DPS.
So basically such a possible nerf is not really a "nerf", it just forces to split fire. 50 ships would split into 5 firegroups picking their own targets.
On a POS 10 dreads would still do the same amount of damage but 100 dreads would be an overkill. Dread 11-100 should more an more loose efficiency.
dread 11 does 95% damage dread 12 does 90% damage ... dread 100 does 0% damage
This can be achieved by checking the ammount of damage a target got hit with. If it¦s unbelievable high this target should loose signature radius because "its all over in explosions and smoke" and cannot be targeted well. Not easy to balance but a good way to get away from the stupid and very limited "primary and secondary target" PVP.
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Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2006.03.20 15:22:00 -
[28]
Originally by: SengH could the op then explain how the hell were supposed to kill POSes, Stations and Capital ships without concentrating fire?
Since when do pos, stations and dreads show up in fleet fights?
Plus all 3 of em are so big thered be more then enough room for a whole lot of people to shoot at them. -------
[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
SengH
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Posted - 2006.03.20 15:44:00 -
[29]
yeah but where DO you draw the line on what you are calculating, does the frig thats scrambling the primary also contribute to reducting dmg even though hes not firing a shot? How many ships before the penalty kicks in? 3? 5? 10? Because even 5 decent T2 tempest pilots with Quake L can easily instapop a BS without breaking sweat.
Also as a side effect this would also nerf frig ganksquads if that was the op's intention.
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Rells
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Posted - 2006.03.20 15:50:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Rells on 20/03/2006 15:54:18
This should never happen. It would represent a MASSIVE nerf to frigates and small ships. Frigates can kill a battleship by getting 10 or 15 frigs on that battleship and overwhelming his tank with sheer force like angry bees. If you implment diminishing returns then the game becomes "Biggest gun wins". It would also becoem rediculous from a realistic point of view. If two people shoot you, does the second bullet have less force ?
Never I say.
The problem of the OP is one of his infamiliarity with the game and his limited use of tactics. If you have 40 battlehsips firing on 1 target you are a crappy fleet commander and wasting time. 10 battleships on a target is sufficient. You should break up your gang into 4 squads, each with tacklers and battleships and then call targets on a squad level basis. Such a mechanism for squads in eve would be nice.
-- Rells
◄ PvP University: Isnt it about time you learned to fight back?
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