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Ethan Tomlinson
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Posted - 2006.03.21 21:54:00 -
[1]
Is this going to be fixed in kali or are penalties allways going to be multiplied by the number of guns. its ******* lame and i believe it needs a fix at least by kali if not sooner.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.03.21 21:56:00 -
[2]
Yep. Plz fix as follows:
1. Remove T2 amo. 2. Rework T2 amo to do secondary effects, not damage. 3. Readd new T2 amo. 4. Add faction missiles.
Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command |
Norvys Kerens
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Posted - 2006.03.21 21:57:00 -
[3]
I agree the penalties are too severe when applied to each individual gun, it should just be one effect to the ship regardless of how many guns are loaded with tech II ammo.
out of interest is the way t2 ammo works now a bug or was it designed to have multiple penalties?
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Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster. And if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes into you. |
Agnar Koladrov
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Posted - 2006.03.21 22:01:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Yep. Plz fix as follows:
1. Remove T2 amo. 2. Rework T2 amo to do secondary effects, not damage. 3. Readd new T2 amo. 4. Add faction missiles.
Has there already been a discussion on what those secondary effects might be like? What should the term "secondary effects" mean regarding a reworkj of the current tec2 ammo?
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ParMizaN
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Posted - 2006.03.21 22:01:00 -
[5]
/agree with maya
failing that, at least balance them plz!
Phenomena of ironies, cast the litany aside How intelligible, blessed be the forgetful |
Mike Yagon
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Posted - 2006.03.21 22:06:00 -
[6]
If I remember right someone asked the devs about this on the Las Vegas thing, their answer was that they T2 items were designed around these penalties stacking, so it's not a bug but rather working as intended.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.03.21 22:33:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Agnar Koladrov
Originally by: Maya Rkell Yep. Plz fix as follows:
1. Remove T2 amo. 2. Rework T2 amo to do secondary effects, not damage. 3. Readd new T2 amo. 4. Add faction missiles.
Has there already been a discussion on what those secondary effects might be like? What should the term "secondary effects" mean regarding a reworkj of the current tec2 ammo?
Ideas which have been mooted include...
energy neutralisation, sig radius bloom, minor* versions of most current ECM effects, webbing...and a lot more. All minor, but significant in some situations.
(*talking less than a light drone per turret)
Note that different damage TYPES should still be possible, just with slightly reduced damage over the default. And give minmatar a very low damage AC amo which hits straight to structure. Plus T2 missiles with splash damage, or 100% more speed but 5% less damage.
Barrage type amo's with lower damage I also have no problem with, but sniper types I do in general. (+60% range is enough, thanks).
I posted a LOT of ideas back before they hit TQ.
Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command |
Maxlis
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Posted - 2006.03.21 22:42:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Mike Yagon If I remember right someone asked the devs about this on the Las Vegas thing, their answer was that they T2 items were designed around these penalties stacking, so it's not a bug but rather working as intended.
Yep, the devs said that T2 ammo was working exactly as intended. Sorry guys, but if you want the benifits, you gotta take the nerfing. Extra damage on that level isn't going to be free. And it doesn't make sense to put actual fitting reqs(CPU/Grid) so they hit cap and speed.
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Shayla Sh'inlux
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Posted - 2006.03.21 23:13:00 -
[9]
If they at least SAY it:
"Tech II ammo is working as intended. Our goal was to create several ridiculously overpowered ammo's such as the large sniper ammo which is ruining the whole idea of mixed fleets and makes tech 1 fitted battleships a joke for alliance scale fleet fighting. We also wanted to have a lot of utterly useless ammo's such as all the medium longrange gun ammo's as well as for example Hail ammo that gets 4 penalties for a little bit of extra damage. We also created 'omgwtfpwn precision missiles of undoing missile changes' to give the caldari some love after their missiles stopped BBQ'ing every ship out there, but to compensate we made rage/fury missiles that gimp your ship to the point of it being pointless to fly. Everything is fine and we are not looking at it anymore".
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.22 00:19:00 -
[10]
Edited by: j0sephine on 22/03/2006 00:20:05
"Ideas which have been mooted include..."
One thing i'd like to see about tech.2 ammo would be...
* the base damage being identical with matching tech.1 ammo, and the exact degree of 'secondary effect' attached to it scaling up with one's level in relevant specialization skill.
e.g. for say, 'tracer' ammo which affects the signature radius of ship it's being fired at, the exact effect goes 3% -> 6% -> 9% -> 12% -> 15% depending on specialization skill level. These 'debuffs' are treated like effects of regular modules, that is stack with one another and with regular EW ... meaning, loading more than 3-4 turrets with single tech.2 ammo type has no further benefits, so might as well try to mix them some.
(maxed out effect of such full 'stack' of ammo of given type should perhaps be similar to what a single matching ship module can do, to keep things reasonable o.O;
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Ashelth
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Posted - 2006.03.22 00:21:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux If they at least SAY it:
"Tech II ammo is working as intended. Our goal was to create several ridiculously overpowered ammo's such as the large sniper ammo which is ruining the whole idea of mixed fleets and makes tech 1 fitted battleships a joke for alliance scale fleet fighting. We also wanted to have a lot of utterly useless ammo's such as all the medium longrange gun ammo's as well as for example Hail ammo that gets 4 penalties for a little bit of extra damage. We also created 'omgwtfpwn precision missiles of undoing missile changes' to give the caldari some love after their missiles stopped BBQ'ing every ship out there, but to compensate we made rage/fury missiles that are completely useless unless you're shooting a POS that isn't moving without guns fitted because you'll die almost instantly with a full rack of those equipped. Everything is fine and we are not looking at it anymore".
Sorry had to fix that for ya ;)
From my experience... precision cruise missiles are the only think keeping the stealth bombers from being a joke. And work really well on inty pilots who wander into web range (if they have half a brain and stay out of web range you do 2 damage).
On the other hand, I can go fit a t1 gunboat bs and instapop frigs from 100km with much less effort, cost and thought on my part.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.22 00:30:00 -
[12]
Edited by: j0sephine on 22/03/2006 00:31:53
"From my experience... precision cruise missiles are the only think keeping the stealth bombers from being a joke."
uhmm stealth bombers already have the 'hidden' built-in bonus to explosion radius of cruise missiles, that brings the base of regular cruise missiles down to 50 m (37m with precision skill) ... short of maybe firing at interceptors charging at full speed what do you need precision cruises for..? o.O;
(and it doesn't really change bombers from being a joke either way, because they're utterly dumb as far as the very ship concept goes...)
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Macky Oriley
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Posted - 2006.03.22 00:38:00 -
[13]
Originally by: j0sephine Edited by: j0sephine on 22/03/2006 00:31:53
"From my experience... precision cruise missiles are the only think keeping the stealth bombers from being a joke."
uhmm stealth bombers already have the 'hidden' built-in bonus to explosion radius of cruise missiles, that brings the base of regular cruise missiles down to 50 m (37m with precision skill) ... short of maybe firing at interceptors charging at full speed what do you need precision cruises for..? o.O;
(and it doesn't really change bombers from being a joke either way, because they're utterly dumb as far as the very ship concept goes...)
An inty travelling over a set speed (this speed is easily attainable with mwd switched on) gets very little damage from cruise missiles fired by a manti, either normal or precision...
The precision missile makes the manti slightly better against intys as those intys that fly in the buffer zone between stopped and max speed will take larger damage, but overall even the greater explosion velocity of the precision missile is not enough to hurt an inty...
I know this for a fact as I flew mantis extensivly in pvp, and throughout the only ship I trully feared was the inty. Everything else I would happily fight against, but even at great range I would think twice about uncloaking my manti to fire at an inty.
Why did I just post this? Not really sure - just wanted to clarify some points...
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.22 00:56:00 -
[14]
"An inty travelling over a set speed (this speed is easily attainable with mwd switched on) gets very little damage from cruise missiles fired by a manti, either normal or precision..."
That's why i asked what difference does picking the precision cruises make ^^; because when firing at something other than interceptor they aren't really different from regular cruises, and when firing at interceptors the difference isn't exactly that much ... so just puzzled how they make the bomber 'not a joke' ^^;;
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Ishen Villone
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Posted - 2006.03.22 00:58:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Macky Oriley
Originally by: j0sephine Edited by: j0sephine on 22/03/2006 00:31:53
"From my experience... precision cruise missiles are the only think keeping the stealth bombers from being a joke."
uhmm stealth bombers already have the 'hidden' built-in bonus to explosion radius of cruise missiles, that brings the base of regular cruise missiles down to 50 m (37m with precision skill) ... short of maybe firing at interceptors charging at full speed what do you need precision cruises for..? o.O;
(and it doesn't really change bombers from being a joke either way, because they're utterly dumb as far as the very ship concept goes...)
An inty travelling over a set speed (this speed is easily attainable with mwd switched on) gets very little damage from cruise missiles fired by a manti, either normal or precision...
The precision missile makes the manti slightly better against intys as those intys that fly in the buffer zone between stopped and max speed will take larger damage, but overall even the greater explosion velocity of the precision missile is not enough to hurt an inty...
I know this for a fact as I flew mantis extensivly in pvp, and throughout the only ship I trully feared was the inty. Everything else I would happily fight against, but even at great range I would think twice about uncloaking my manti to fire at an inty.
Why did I just post this? Not really sure - just wanted to clarify some points...
Makes sense to me that an interceptor counters a bomber ;)
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Grape Juice
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Posted - 2006.04.09 13:22:00 -
[16]
Sorry to bring back an oldish topic just to whine, but what's the point of having T2 ammo if you're going to make it pointless to use?
Why bother training the skills up to use it if a freighter could beat you to a gate?
Why spend the ISK to buy the ammo?
I could almost understand it if the penalties were only applied while you were firing, but ALWAYS?
It's like making T2 ships do little to no damage in return for extra defenses, or like making the doomsday weapons the only weapon available to the Titan, and you have to wait 20 minutes between shots. (I have no idea how they actually work, I'm taking a stab in the dark.)
The extra time spent training the skills necessary to use T2 ammo and the extra ISK spent on it should be rewarded with an added bonus without trying to 'balance' with T1 ammo. T2 ammo should be better than it's T1 counterpart because it costs more time and money wise.
Looking at the above quotes, however, it seems like they're not going to do anything about it. They WANT to gimp the T2 ammo. It makes absolutely no sense to me.
Again, sorry about the whining. I try to refrain from it, but this is beyond messed up.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.04.09 15:24:00 -
[17]
Originally by: G*****Juice
Looking at the above quotes, however, it seems like they're not going to do anything about it. They WANT to gimp the T2 ammo. It makes absolutely no sense to me.
Again, sorry about the whining. I try to refrain from it, but this is beyond messed up.
Personally i dont see the point of having severe penalties for using tech 2 ammo either. What are they going to do when tech 3 ammo is introduced - make the ship take more damage from incoming fire perhaps?
--- "Automatic override. Manual control overridden by autopilot. Please wait for operation to complete. You can override the automatic autopilot override in 28 seconds. Then you can make it wait" |
Grape Juice
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Posted - 2006.04.09 15:47:00 -
[18]
It's like paying full price for a Farrari and getting one with a 4 cylinder engine.
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Malthros Zenobia
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Posted - 2006.04.09 15:57:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Yep. Plz fix as follows:
1. Remove T2 amo. 2. Rework T2 amo to do secondary effects, not damage. 3. Readd new T2 amo. 4. Add faction missiles.
QFT
Originally by: Dark Shikari Istvaan Shogaatsu's ego, when combined with a veldspar asteroid, would create 500 titans. Too bad he's never mined.
RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran |
Destruct
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Posted - 2006.04.09 23:46:00 -
[20]
Originally by: G*****Juice It's like paying full price for a Farrari and getting one with a 4 cylinder engine.
no, you get pedals. this is a bug no matter what they say.
You can get more of what you want with a kind word and a gun than you can with just a kind word. - Al Capone
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Litus Arowar
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Posted - 2006.04.10 00:35:00 -
[21]
I'm amarr and am lucky that most amarr ammo doesn't face these issues
but they're gonna run into more and more problems as a result of the sniper ammos and ones with huge penalties
what they should do is rethink the whole tech2 ammo setup... as was said by Maya, ammo should have a racial benefit designed with balance in mind... everything else about the ammo should be the same, maybe add a minor penalty across the board (perhaps one you can reduce with higher levels of the spec skill?)
as mayas examples went, these could involve targetpainting ammo, webbing ammo (perhaps a 2% web that stacks for 3-4 seconds, could be useful with rapid-firing guns, but anyway), nos/neut ammo, shield/armor-piercing rounds... whatever, but they should merely add another element to the game rather than be things you MUST or must not use due to its insane bonuses (sniper ammo) or insane drawbacks (certain missiles, etc)
I do wanna point out that "And give minmatar a very low damage AC amo which hits straight to structure." is a bad idea simply because it'd be an IWin button against all tanks (cause no one will ever fit a hull repper on their combat ship, not willingly anyway)
just my thoughts
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Dampfschlaghammer
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Posted - 2006.04.10 01:01:00 -
[22]
Quote: 2. Rework T2 amo to do secondary effects, not damage.
Best idea I've read on the forums in a really long time.
I think you shouldnt restrict that to some variation of existing effects like nosferatu or dampening though.
Nice effects would include things like a stun gun, rusting of armour/structure over time, causing damage relative to the charge level of the capacitor etc....
Maybe even some day make the complexity of their use similar to Guild wars spells and abilities?
Dont know if T2 Ammo should be the vessel of these changes alone.
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