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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8419
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 10:21:00 -
[1] - Quote
The actual definition of "capital ship" in EVE has been a point of contention among pedants such as myself. While most people would look at this subject and say "who gives a ****" I say there needs to be clear and consistent definitions. Definitions which include the carriers, supercarriers, dreadnoughts, titans, and the Rorqual as all of the ships belonging to the capital ship class. This does not include the Orca, freighters, or jump freighters.
Whenever somebody brings this subject up the usual response is that freighters, jump freighters, and the Orca are all listed under the market category of capital ships. I however do not believe that such a categorization is correct. The market has, in the past, had modules and other items which were improperly categorized, and even today certain modules are in categories that don't make sense.
For example, everyone knows that the Nanofiber Internal Structures is used as a propulsion module. The reason they're used is to increase speed and agility, which are attributes combined from two listed propulsion modules, the Overdrive Injector System and the Inertia Stabilizers. Yet the nanofiber is listed under hull upgrades, despite the fact that like the overdrive and the istab, its hull effects are detrimental. It's like saying the Warp Core Stabilizer is an electronics and sensor upgrade because it reduces lock range and scan resolution, or that the Improved Cloaking Device II is a propulsion module since it decreases speed while cloaked. It should be pretty evident that this categorization is improper and the nanofiber should be considered a propulsion upgrade.
Similarly, the categorization of the Orca and freighters don't share any attributes that are common to the the real capital ships. The only thing that can be said about them is that they're really big. Jump freighters are freighters with jump drives, which capital ships do have, but then so do the Black Ops. Clearly a jump drive does not automatically make a ship a capital ship.
So what defines a capital ship? For a clear set of attributes a capital ship is:
- Any ship that cannot use stargates
- Any ship that requires the capital ships skill
- Any ship with a mass of greater than 1,000,000 tons
- Any ship which, should it happen to be in highsec, is subjected to severely restrictive rules on its usage
Supercapitals are of course a subclass of capitals which all have the following attributes
- Cannot dock in a station
- Cannot use any wormholes
- Are immune at all times to all forms of E-war
- Must be constructed in a Capital Ship Assembly Array
I propose that freighters and jump freighters be moved into the separate category of Freighters, which will encompass Standard Freighters and Advanced Freighters. The Orca would be moved into its own category of Industrial Command Ship. Technically supercapitals shouldn't be on the market at all, since they cannot be docked except by GM intervention.
(And move nanofibers to propulsion modules, seriously.) My EVE Videos |
hedge betts Shiyurida
State Protectorate Caldari State
128
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Posted - 2014.01.15 10:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
I define them as very big ships Pog mo thoin |
Thebriwan
LUX Uls Xystus
170
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Posted - 2014.01.15 10:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Just because OP wrote that he is a pedant:
A Nanofiber Internal Structure is no propulsion module because it does not propel anything. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1075
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Posted - 2014.01.15 10:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
In before someone post about "Capitol Ships" with "Turrents" "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8422
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 11:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
Thebriwan wrote:Just because OP wrote that he is a pedant:
A Nanofiber Internal Structure is no propulsion module because it does not propel anything. You're right, what I meant to write was propulsion upgrade. My EVE Videos |
Alduin666 Shikkoken
Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore
374
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 11:01:00 -
[6] - Quote
Posting in Features and Ideas is too hard right?
I would expect a new pubbie to make this mistake, but a well known face in goonswarm?!?
You are bad and you should feel bad. Honor is a fools prize. Glory is of no use to the dead.
Be a man! Post with your main! ~Vas'Avi Community Manager |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8422
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 11:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
Alduin666 Shikkoken wrote:Posting in Features and Ideas is too hard right?
I would expect a new pubbie to make this mistake, but a well known face in goonswarm?!?
You are bad and you should feel bad. It's only partially a feature request. It's mostly to start a discussion on how we've categorized these things and why. My EVE Videos |
Fix Lag
619
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Posted - 2014.01.15 11:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
Alduin666 Shikkoken wrote:You are bad and you should feel bad.
okay mister test alliance |
Julius Rigel
119
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Posted - 2014.01.15 11:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:It should be pretty evident that this categorization is improper and the nanofiber should be considered a propulsion upgrade. No. Nanofiber Internal Structure is listed under hull because it changes the hull of a ship. It is not listed under propulsion because it doesn't change the propulsion system of a ship. Overdrive Injector System and Inertia Stabilizers are modules which plug into the propulsion system of a ship, so they are listed under propulsion.
What you are proposing is to classify "carbon fiber body" as an "engine upgrade for a car", because "if you give a car a carbon fiber body, the engine (an unrelated component) will make the entire car go faster". Nanofibers aren't propulsion upgrades, they don't change the way ships propel themselves.
A capital ship is any ship that requires the "Capital Ships" skill, or in the case of industrial ships, the "Capital Industrial Ships" skill. Do YOU like to undock? |
Alduin666 Shikkoken
Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore
374
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Posted - 2014.01.15 11:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
Fix Lag wrote:Alduin666 Shikkoken wrote:You are bad and you should feel bad. okay mister test alliance
Mmmm . . . forum alt . . . so scared.
Edit: Forgot to check player Bio. I am bad and I should feel bad.
But its just another Goon vOv Honor is a fools prize. Glory is of no use to the dead.
Be a man! Post with your main! ~Vas'Avi Community Manager |
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Digital Messiah
Heroic Era
363
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Posted - 2014.01.15 11:08:00 -
[11] - Quote
Actually makes sense. Though for the sake of not having to open more tabs, I don't care whether they change it or not. We have gone so far down the rabbit hole that a lot of logical changes can not be done. Or can be done but at more cost than necessity. This is due to old code and while eve fills a niche role. Difficulties it has with keeping up with other games will eventually sink the title. In the mean time I accept small illogical features and content, simply to enjoy eve while it is around.
On a side note, CCP recode the game already. I am sick and tired of exiting out just to log onto an alt. Something clever |
Artemis Ellery Sazas
Shock and Awe Inc.
19
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Posted - 2014.01.15 11:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
TEST Alliance is still alive???? |
Alduin666 Shikkoken
Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore
374
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 11:12:00 -
[13] - Quote
Artemis Ellery Sazas wrote:TEST Alliance is still alive????
No we are dead. We went off to Faction Warfare to die remember? Honor is a fools prize. Glory is of no use to the dead.
Be a man! Post with your main! ~Vas'Avi Community Manager |
Alduin666 Shikkoken
Unholy Knights of Cthulhu Test Alliance Please Ignore
374
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 11:14:00 -
[14] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Alduin666 Shikkoken wrote:Posting in Features and Ideas is too hard right?
I would expect a new pubbie to make this mistake, but a well known face in goonswarm?!?
You are bad and you should feel bad. It's only partially a feature request. It's mostly to start a discussion on how we've categorized these things and why.
Ok . . . well . . . I categorize this under the same quality of posts as Knights Armament. Honor is a fools prize. Glory is of no use to the dead.
Be a man! Post with your main! ~Vas'Avi Community Manager |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8422
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 11:16:00 -
[15] - Quote
Julius Rigel wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:It should be pretty evident that this categorization is improper and the nanofiber should be considered a propulsion upgrade. No. Nanofiber Internal Structure is listed under hull because it changes the hull of a ship. It is not listed under propulsion because it doesn't change the propulsion system of a ship. Overdrive Injector System and Inertia Stabilizers are modules which plug into the propulsion system of a ship, so they are listed under propulsion. Both the overdrive and the istab have detrimental effects to the hull - they reduce a ship's cargo capacity and increase its signature radius, respectively. Similarly the nanofiber reduces a ship's hull HP, while altering both attributes (speed and inertia modifier) which make the overdrive and istab propulsion upgrades in the first place. It's not a hull upgrade, because it doesn't upgrade the hull. It upgrades the propulsion by making the ship faster and more agile. It's basically the same as having both of these propulsion upgrades fitted, except using one slot instead of two for slightly less of a gain in both areas, with a different drawback. It most certainly is a propulsion upgrade.
Julius Rigel wrote:What you are proposing is to classify "carbon fiber body" as an "engine upgrade for a car", because "if you give a car a carbon fiber body, the engine (an unrelated component) will make the entire car go faster". Nanofibers aren't propulsion upgrades, they don't change the way ships propel themselves. People don't search market categories based upon lore, they search based upon the intended use of the module. If you want to make your ship faster and more agile, you'd probably think to look in propulsion upgrades first, which is where the nanofibers should be.
Julius Rigel wrote:A capital ship is any ship that requires the "Capital Ships" skill, or in the case of industrial ships, the "Capital Industrial Ships" skill. The Capital Industrial Ships skill is only for the Rorqual, and it requires the Capital Ships skill anyway (the ship also requires the Capital Ships skill at level 2 to fly it anyway). The Orca requires neither Capital Ships nor Capital Industrial Ships. It doesn't even require Advanced Spaceship Command. My EVE Videos |
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
548
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 11:18:00 -
[16] - Quote
James, are you wanting CCP to reclassify items in the market? Because the market window is hard? I don't get it. "You should just create one thread and put all of your complaints in it instead of littering the forums with multiple threads." ~CCP Falcon
Paranoia never killed anyone. -áA complete absence of it has. |
embrel
BamBam Inc.
100
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 11:25:00 -
[17] - Quote
I think on the whole, you're quite right. But especially this one is absolutely correct: James Amril-Kesh wrote: While most people would look at this subject and say "who gives a ****"
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TharOkha
0asis Group
764
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 11:33:00 -
[18] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I propose that freighters and jump freighters be moved into the separate category of Freighters, which will encompass Standard Freighters and Advanced Freighters. The Orca would be moved into its own category of Industrial Command Ship. Technically supercapitals shouldn't be on the market at all, since they cannot be docked except by GM intervention.
And Pirate/faction bpc market. We need BPC market.....
. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8423
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 11:42:00 -
[19] - Quote
TharOkha wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I propose that freighters and jump freighters be moved into the separate category of Freighters, which will encompass Standard Freighters and Advanced Freighters. The Orca would be moved into its own category of Industrial Command Ship. Technically supercapitals shouldn't be on the market at all, since they cannot be docked except by GM intervention.
And Pirate/faction bpc market. We need BPC market..... I don't think that's technically possible though. My EVE Videos |
dexington
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1057
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 11:56:00 -
[20] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Similarly, the categorization of the Orca and freighters don't share any attributes that are common to the the real capital ships. The only thing that can be said about them is that they're really big. Jump freighters are freighters with jump drives, which capital ships do have, but then so do the Black Ops. Clearly a jump drive does not automatically make a ship a capital ship.
The Orca and freighters and jumps freighters are all advanced spaceship command skill ships, which seems to be the only thing all capital ships have in common.
Guess the Orca actually don't need advanced spaceship command. I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous. |
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Jack Miton
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi Unmentionables
2919
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 12:06:00 -
[21] - Quote
If its 'Capital Sized Vessel' attribute is '1', then it's a capital ship. This attribute can be seen in EVEMon and most likely other similar programs.
Basically these ships are capitals:
titans supers carriers dreads freighters jump freighters rorqual
Orca is not a capital, even though it needs cap parts to build.
/thread Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8424
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 12:08:00 -
[22] - Quote
dexington wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Similarly, the categorization of the Orca and freighters don't share any attributes that are common to the the real capital ships. The only thing that can be said about them is that they're really big. Jump freighters are freighters with jump drives, which capital ships do have, but then so do the Black Ops. Clearly a jump drive does not automatically make a ship a capital ship. The Orca and freighters and jumps freighters are all advanced spaceship command skill ships, which seems to be the only thing all capital ships have in common. But it doesn't make sense to call freighters and jump freighters capital ships, because they share none of the unique characteristics that are common to carriers, dreadnoughts, titans, supers, and the Rorqual, except that one. My EVE Videos |
Ramona McCandless
Epic Boo Bees
2297
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 12:09:00 -
[23] - Quote
I dont really see the problem people have with this thread.
Its pretty obvious what its about.
Im sick of having to explain to cry-hards who say "I wasnt talking about CAPS UUUNNNHHHHHHH" that an Orca isnt a cap. *** Vote MTU For CSM *** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." --áPontianak Sythaeryn Omnis nomiom nom nom nomi |
Jack Miton
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi Unmentionables
2919
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 12:10:00 -
[24] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:But it doesn't make sense to call freighters and jump freighters capital ships, because they share none of the unique characteristics that are common to carriers, dreadnoughts, titans, supers, and the Rorqual, except that one. it's a hard coded flag, sense has nothing to do with it. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ |
Ramona McCandless
Epic Boo Bees
2297
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 12:10:00 -
[25] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:If its 'Capital Sized Vessel' attribute is '1', then it's a capital ship. This attribute can be seen in EVEMon and most likely other similar programs.
Basically these ships are capitals:
titans supers carriers dreads freighters jump freighters rorqual
Orca is not a capital, even though it needs cap parts to build.
/thread
No.
That means its the size of a cap. It doesnt qualify it as a cap *** Vote MTU For CSM *** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." --áPontianak Sythaeryn Omnis nomiom nom nom nomi |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
155
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Posted - 2014.01.15 12:12:00 -
[26] - Quote
Now of course in the real world capital ships were primarily Battlecruisers and Battleships which are clealry not capital ships in EVE and also tended to be ships that led or in many cases even needed a fleet that supported it. Again not always the case in EVE.
As for EVE .. it is a wee bit confused. For example (and correct me if I am wrong as I never built one) doesn't the Orca require capital construction parts to build ? Yet by the same token the same Orca takes large sized rigs rather than the new capital sized ones that came in with Odyssey. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8424
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 12:21:00 -
[27] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:As for EVE .. it is a wee bit confused. For example (and correct me if I am wrong as I never built one) doesn't the Orca require capital construction parts to build ? So do black ops. My EVE Videos |
dexington
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1057
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 12:44:00 -
[28] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:dexington wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Similarly, the categorization of the Orca and freighters don't share any attributes that are common to the the real capital ships. The only thing that can be said about them is that they're really big. Jump freighters are freighters with jump drives, which capital ships do have, but then so do the Black Ops. Clearly a jump drive does not automatically make a ship a capital ship. The Orca and freighters and jumps freighters are all advanced spaceship command skill ships, which seems to be the only thing all capital ships have in common. But it doesn't make sense to call freighters and jump freighters capital ships, because they share none of the unique characteristics that are common to carriers, dreadnoughts, titans, supers, and the Rorqual, except that one.
I that not like arguing that the whale isn't a mammal, because it lives in the ocean? I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
8425
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 12:47:00 -
[29] - Quote
dexington wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:dexington wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Similarly, the categorization of the Orca and freighters don't share any attributes that are common to the the real capital ships. The only thing that can be said about them is that they're really big. Jump freighters are freighters with jump drives, which capital ships do have, but then so do the Black Ops. Clearly a jump drive does not automatically make a ship a capital ship. The Orca and freighters and jumps freighters are all advanced spaceship command skill ships, which seems to be the only thing all capital ships have in common. But it doesn't make sense to call freighters and jump freighters capital ships, because they share none of the unique characteristics that are common to carriers, dreadnoughts, titans, supers, and the Rorqual, except that one. I that not like arguing that the whale isn't a mammal, because it lives in the ocean? No, it's like arguing that a whale isn't a fish just because it lives in the ocean. My EVE Videos |
dexington
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1057
|
Posted - 2014.01.15 12:50:00 -
[30] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:dexington wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:dexington wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Similarly, the categorization of the Orca and freighters don't share any attributes that are common to the the real capital ships. The only thing that can be said about them is that they're really big. Jump freighters are freighters with jump drives, which capital ships do have, but then so do the Black Ops. Clearly a jump drive does not automatically make a ship a capital ship. The Orca and freighters and jumps freighters are all advanced spaceship command skill ships, which seems to be the only thing all capital ships have in common. But it doesn't make sense to call freighters and jump freighters capital ships, because they share none of the unique characteristics that are common to carriers, dreadnoughts, titans, supers, and the Rorqual, except that one. I that not like arguing that the whale isn't a mammal, because it lives in the ocean? No, it's like arguing that a whale isn't a fish just because it lives in the ocean.
Advanced spaceship command = capital. Spaceship command = sub capital.
This would only mean the Orca does not fit the rule. I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous. |
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