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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
magickangaroo
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Posted - 2006.04.05 18:09:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Invisible Touch
However, the bottom line is what Blacklight said. And tbfh I feel kinda relief.
tbh if you belive everything been said here i wouldnt feel relief. after all isnt one of your allaince leaders (at least higher up) the one who has been implicated for starting a war lasting a year, involivng thousands of people and shapin the future of the game just so he can pay a mortgage??
if that was his first round would love to see his second !
(GAL11) Brigadier General yay |
Halseth Durn
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Posted - 2006.04.05 18:25:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Halseth Durn on 05/04/2006 18:26:30 please delete this double post.
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Halseth Durn
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Posted - 2006.04.05 18:25:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Halseth Durn on 05/04/2006 18:26:02
Originally by: j0sephine "So imo it was bound to happen that JF were going to be booted from the alliance or leave. I felt the way they were removed was handly with great honour, we could have turned on them and started shooting (which many including CDI wanted to do) but the decision was made to let them leave peacfully out of respect for what they had tried to do for the alliance."
There's no "great honour" in 'choosing to not shoot' people who you keep in belief they're allied with you until the last second. It's basic civility, and PA couldn't even handle that part with common standard, and did the whole "hey guess what, you're kicked" thing without any sort of forewarning and out of the blue.
It's long dead issue by now, no point in trying to dress the corpse in flowers so it stinks some less.
Allthough I usually agree with you, here's an instance that needs clarification.
A few weeks before JF was informed that we would be continuing without them, Krullz posted to the alliance forum a chat between Jade and Miso where they severely belittled the alliance and its members. Many called for the immediate expulsion of JF. The alliance decided against it, but Jade knew from that point on that JFs days were numbered. (ask Jade)
Myself and KIAEDDZ were given the crappy task of informing JF. To this day, our convo with Athule is still one of the hardest things I've ever done in eve. But he took it like a man and admited that they had seen this coming. JF corporation was then given no time limit on leaving venal and lingered for more than a month in the area.
So, from my standpoint, I see no "out of the blue" or lack of civility.
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2006.04.05 18:37:00 -
[94]
hmmm, I'm seeing some connections here ...
Originally by: DB Preacher Krulldari spent his time manipulating the NVA command and then the PA command so he could mine for his mortgage in peace. Jade saw through it and Krullz manipulated the rest to bully, abuse and eventually get Jade thrown out.
Originally by: Halseth Durn A few weeks before JF was informed that we would be continuing without them, Krullz posted to the alliance forum a chat between Jade and Miso where they severely belittled the alliance and its members. Many called for the immediate expulsion of JF. The alliance decided against it, but Jade knew from that point on that JFs days were numbered. (ask Jade)
Krulldari = Krullz right? So this is the master manipulator at the heart of the PA who gave a made up piece of evidence to the NVA council to get a rival who'ed seen his plan thrown out maybe?
Seriously Halseth, I was in JF at the time, I was in the NVA too and I fought in those wars. The evidence you are talking was taken by an unattributed spy from the JF forums and presented as a fait accompli. There was absolutely no substantive proof of the source and the text I finally got to see from the new NVA forums bore no resemblence to anything miso or Jade had said.
Maybe you just got played.
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Halseth Durn
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Posted - 2006.04.05 19:34:00 -
[95]
The Jade-Miso chat was not fabricated. The NVA forums were also the forums of many NVA corps. Myself, Jade, Athule, Gafton and Cormyat were admins. I didnt know it, but admins had access to corp sections as well. Cormyat knew about this flaw, read the JF section and then gave the posts to Krullz. Shortly before Krullz exposed the log to the NVA general membership, Cormyat informed Gafton and myself. We confirmed the logs as legitimate without question.
There was no "timing" planned for when Jade was gone. A fleet was forming to confront the FE fleet and we figured since there were a few JF pilots in gang and that we had decided to leave JF out of our future plans, it would be unfair to ask them to risk ships for a group of people they would no (soon) longer be allied with.
NVA procedures were not followed because the NVA was being abandoned by 90% of its corps. The alliance no longer existed for most of us and its buerocracy no longer applied.
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Red Six
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Posted - 2006.04.05 19:47:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Red Six on 05/04/2006 19:47:13 So what you are saying Halseth is that you and the other admins violated the trust of the other corps using these common forums with private corp areas where they privately grumbled about their unhappiness of that day. Way to build trust there buddy.
I hated crap like that when I was a corp leader. I hate it now. Corp private forums are private and any violation by any non-corporate personnel are reason enough to fight.
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Halseth Durn
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Posted - 2006.04.05 19:52:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Red Six Edited by: Red Six on 05/04/2006 19:47:13 So what you are saying Halseth is that you and the other admins violated the trust of the other corps using these common forums with private corp areas where they privately grumbled about their unhappiness of that day. Way to build trust there buddy.
I hated crap like that when I was a corp leader. I hate it now. Corp private forums are private and any violation by any non-corporate personnel are reason enough to fight.
No. As soon as this incident happened, those forums were scrapped for ones without individual corp sections. The only spying done was by Cormyat. He gave the Information to Krullz, the obvious gap in security was realized and the problem corrected.
Comprende?
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.05 20:12:00 -
[98]
No. Because it's lies, untruths and bluntly crawling.
You've managed to drag this thread down to your level, and I'm sure that you'll be rewarded in full. Shortly.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Harisdrop
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Posted - 2006.04.05 20:13:00 -
[99]
Now I know why Trip created our own RONA forums for gods sake, -------------------------- I have big balls of Plasma coming out of my guns.
Come chat eveteamspeak.com
RSS |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.04.05 20:14:00 -
[100]
"A few weeks before JF was informed that we would be continuing without them, Krullz posted to the alliance forum a chat between Jade and Miso where they severely belittled the alliance and its members. Many called for the immediate expulsion of JF. The alliance decided against it, but Jade knew from that point on that JFs days were numbered. (ask Jade)"
Hmmm i see. i wasn't keeping tabs on the NVA forum, plus the whole fallout thing happened very shortly after i joined JF ... so i wasn't aware of what Jade might've known. Still not convinced about that "it's great honour to refrain from shooting former allies on the spot" thing, but i can see your point. Thanks for clarification. ^^
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YodaMasterJedi
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Posted - 2006.04.05 20:23:00 -
[101]
Edited by: YodaMasterJedi on 05/04/2006 20:23:36
Originally by: pershphanie While we are all confessing things I'd like to confess that I have no idea if xelas was really napped with bob or not. I just wanted something to shoot at and no one was attacking us. Frankly the prospect of having to travel for pvp scared me so we needed an enemy closer to home. But im not sorry, it was fun.
WHAT THE FECK????????
Karma is a b*tch persh
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Vishnej
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Posted - 2006.04.05 20:50:00 -
[102]
Krullz as a 'master of manipulation' 4tw. Contribute to the Eve Wiki |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.04.05 21:32:00 -
[103]
"Krullz as a 'master of manipulation' 4tw."
As long as manipulation doesn't have underlying motive of securing one's access to mass amount of assets, they can then peddle for RL welfare...
because then it's anything but "4tw"
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Shittake
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Posted - 2006.04.05 22:16:00 -
[104]
I feel duped.
And to think I sat in a safespot with Krullz in D7 getting ready to attack RKK and the station after 18 hours of gameplay and 15 beers, and then drunkenly calling Cao Cao a pirate of the FU TS server and getting kicked off - all for the wrong reasons?
Wow
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Furious Raccoon
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Posted - 2006.04.05 22:25:00 -
[105]
WOW I am not sure how many times I have posted on these forums but it is a small handful. This was just a crazy read. I joined the game just before the GNW broke out and at the time my corp was a member of the PA. I too cut my teeth on PvP during this war and as a simple grunt I too believed we were fighting the great evil of the universe. When my corp (and me) left the PA I too had felt there was something pretty seriously wrong, but somehow I guess I still held on to the belief that I was fighting the just cause.
Anyway, I am glad that some of the leaders of the PA have come forth and acknowledged the mess that they created and for Cochise I can only imagine the pain of having to take the reigns after others created such a mess (although I agree with many others that once the truth had been learned it should have then been made public).
Anyway, having now been a director in a few corps and being much further along in my EvE career I can only hope that this never happens again.
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Lunaticdie04
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Posted - 2006.04.05 22:52:00 -
[106]
I was lied to?
The worst bit is my RL mate was fighting for the other side and we'd always have arguments who was right. He'll never let me live this down. Nice to see the truth finally out though.
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Riddari
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Posted - 2006.04.05 23:06:00 -
[107]
"I told you so!"
Well I did!
Good to see some people do fess up at last.
¼+¼ a history |
Recluse XXX
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Posted - 2006.04.06 00:54:00 -
[108]
WTF!!!??
Are you actually telling me that for six months I was a bad guy and no1 told me!
Do you have any idea how many yarrs I have to scream to catch up!!??
//Rec-
----Yarr---- Edited by: sausage jockey on 01/02/2006 22:02:39 We will not give up until we have penetrated the rear entrance to Stain, we hope this will hurt SA to the point they start to cry.
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Faith Rose
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Posted - 2006.04.06 01:16:00 -
[109]
The point is everyone got played bad. Pa members never followed up to see if what was being said "true" in anyway.
the few that did............ well we all know that story now well enough.
If anything this is a hard lesson to all the followers "Never follow blindly ever again" But as with all mistakes someone will fall blindly into that trap again. =============================================== It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected. |
Johnathan Roark
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Posted - 2006.04.06 01:35:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine Re Athule by the way, the reason he wasn't that surprised was his genuine fury at the fact that alliance members were spying on each others forums and fabricating scandal for political advantage. But its worth remembering that the actual kick out manouver was timed for a weekend when Jade was away and we were in the middle of a fleet action - the NVA proceedures were not followed and there was no alliance vote. It wasn't really a very honourable proceedure, more like a coup.
Hmm, I remember voting on this issue, was long time ago. It was done on TS. Problem with the NVA proceedures was voting was done on forums. Desissions took weeks to make.
Honestly, what is the point in this thread. The only allinace from the GNW that is still arround is BoB. Many of the corporations are gone too.
Corporation Management Improvement |
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Dafuzz
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Posted - 2006.04.06 03:18:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Johnathan Roark Honestly, what is the point in this thread. The only allinace from the GNW that is still arround is BoB. Many of the corporations are gone too.
I can answer what the point to this thread is from my perspective.
To me, The GNW is a stone with many facets. Depending on how you hold the stone when you gaze into it, what it reflects is all a very personal perspective. To some there may be immense riches and learning and to others immense depravity and hatred and to still others apathy and sadness, and worst of all, it appears there is betrayal and regret at the core of the whole situation. For me, it is all these things.
Many people cut their teeth during this historical time period and those involved have vivid memories of the events witnessed both in space and in the diplomatic corners and secret back rooms. For fear of cutting out the hearts of all the soldiers still embroiled in daily conflict over that cesspool of a region known as Venal at that present time, it is understandable why Cochise decided to not confront those Demons but to allow someone else to come forward with their tale of woe, as he related to me that it was more their story to tell than it was his.
Truth be told, I urged Cochise to bring the story of The Phoenix Alliance's darkest hours into the light anyway, contemporaneous to his frank and open admission to me of what those varied historical reference materials contained. He explained that he would do so when the time was right. And that time looks to be now which is on the heels of Robeyone's return to the political arena where he opened the door for such a dialogue.
So JR old friend, the reason why this thread is here is because many believe that it is a tale of woe worth being told coupled with a multitude of hatchets that need to be buried on all sides.
Some will forever carry a torch of hate onward. Others will read the publication of the lessons learned by the light of the same torch that will always burn in the hearts and minds of all involved. The torch of fire can burn and it can provide warmth and light. How each person involved chooses to use that torch is up to them. --
-If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, riddle them with bullets.. |
Halseth Durn
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Posted - 2006.04.06 03:30:00 -
[112]
Pure poetry, Fuzz.
Sums it up very nicely.
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Karol Kei
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Posted - 2006.04.06 04:55:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Johnathan Roark
Honestly, what is the point in this thread. The only allinace from the GNW that is still arround is BoB. Many of the corporations are gone too.
The point, my old friend, is to set the record straight. The war spilled over to areas that it should have not. A lot of bad vibes were generated. A lot of people stopped flying altogether including myself for a long time. There are a lot of people if not corps and alliances still around including your own former and likely current members and they know for sure that we were the bad guys. We started it. We wanted it. We planned it. We kept it going. We ate the babies. And they were and they are wrong despite Halseth's emergency damage control efforts.
The point is that GNW was a turning point and a low point of the galaxy. There are thousands of threads in these forums and quite frankly finally setting an issue of the magnitude of GNW straight to half the galaxy is easily one of the issues that deserves a thread.
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Lama Zpiff
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Posted - 2006.04.06 07:46:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Dafuzz
To me, The GNW is a stone with many facets. Depending on how you hold the stone when you gaze into it, what it reflects is all a very personal perspective. To some there may be immense riches and learning and to others immense depravity and hatred and to still others apathy and sadness, and worst of all, it appears there is betrayal and regret at the core of the whole situation. For me, it is all these things.
Couldn't write it better myself.
To the PA leadership; Thanks for coming clean. If you had done so earlier, during the war, maybe your beloved alliance hadn't fallen. Karma at its best.
/LZ
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Invisible Touch
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Posted - 2006.04.06 08:13:00 -
[115]
Originally by: magickangaroo
Originally by: Invisible Touch
However, the bottom line is what Blacklight said. And tbfh I feel kinda relief.
tbh if you belive everything been said here i wouldnt feel relief. after all isnt one of your allaince leaders (at least higher up) the one who has been implicated for starting a war lasting a year, involivng thousands of people and shapin the future of the game just so he can pay a mortgage??
if that was his first round would love to see his second !
We were in PA up to the day the evac order was given. Deciding to join Gods, although we had old and trusted (although sometimes on the "other" side) friends in Gods was not an easy one, especially for pilots who had a strong RP aspect in their evelives.
Imho what Co. said is true, although not the whole truth. Maybe one needs a 10-page long essay just to briefly summarize the key facts and milestones in PA's history. I, among many others, preferred to believe the we were the "good" guys part, always in defense, united north, "good" north, "evil" bob and other similar thingies.
Regarding that RP aspect, I certainly feel relief these things are somewhat more clear, since I have "devils" set not to show up on overview. However, I wish I had known better, I was always an info-freak, many of our past decisions ingame would have been reversed.
Hey I know you mgk have been called a "traitor" many many times. I remember one convo of ours after a 5hr hunt of your lucky rax, and if I recall we both had a good view of the larger picture involved.
Nowadays, we are among ppl who want to have fun, dont really care about politics, we log, join a gang, fight, shoot, die, all things are much more simple.
As per leadership issues, I am so fed up with councils, reps, etc., I trust pers wants to keep us all busy, and we will see where this goes. As for mortgages all my Eve-assets are paid in full
Originally by: Blacklight There is no black and white, good vs evil in Eve. Only shades of grey all coloured by self interest. |
KingAc
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Posted - 2006.04.06 08:19:00 -
[116]
GNW did make me eat Kladdkaka Yarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
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DB Preacher
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Posted - 2006.04.06 09:49:00 -
[117]
Still playing the eloquent frontman huh halseth?
You were shown what Krullz wanted you to see in order to finally get rid of Jade so he could be back in full control.
The PA council then believed his word over ours even though we had given no reason to be mistrusful and infact were only looking to secure the gates of venal for all of the north.
But there isn't really any point in discussing it in here.
Just remember the reason for the post.
dbp
Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
Drop by and say hi in Reikoku Forums.
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Fred0
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Posted - 2006.04.06 11:22:00 -
[118]
If this is the case then thank you krullz mate for giving us the best time we've ever had in this galaxy. I think thousands of star pilots should send lots of isk because you orchestrated the best thing this universe has seen. I wouldn't think it possible by one man tbh.
This boils down to a "It was the janitor" kinda thingy. Krullz always was standing behind, looking and doing his friggen 6 accounts mining and giving away free kit for the pa thing when he really was the mastermind behind it. And to think that in addition to this he never felt the need to brag about it. It truely makes me reevaluate him to something more than I've used to think about him.
Oh and Cochise, which meeting was it you put everything at the table? I can't remember ever being confronted at a council meeting with you saying it was us who started it. ---
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.06 12:44:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Johnathan Roark
Originally by: Jasmine Constantine Re Athule by the way, the reason he wasn't that surprised was his genuine fury at the fact that alliance members were spying on each others forums and fabricating scandal for political advantage. But its worth remembering that the actual kick out manouver was timed for a weekend when Jade was away and we were in the middle of a fleet action - the NVA proceedures were not followed and there was no alliance vote. It wasn't really a very honourable proceedure, more like a coup.
Hmm, I remember voting on this issue, was long time ago. It was done on TS. Problem with the NVA proceedures was voting was done on forums. Desissions took weeks to make.
Honestly, what is the point in this thread. The only allinace from the GNW that is still arround is BoB. Many of the corporations are gone too.
And yet many of us remain, one one side or another. And split open a corperation, and what tumbles out but pilots. A goodly proportion of the oldest Pod pilots in Eve fought through the GNW, and it remains one of the defining parts of Eve history. That its true story be told is in the interests of us all.
One of the chapters of Eve is - mostly - closed. But in closing, it opens others and paves the way for new twists and turns in the political saga, the Game of Empires, which defines the stuggles of the alliances.
In other words, welcome to Eve. And I remind you of the ancient curse: "May you live in interesting times".
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2006.04.06 12:44:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Jasmine Constantine on 06/04/2006 12:53:22
Originally by: Fred0 If this is the case then thank you krullz mate for giving us the best time we've ever had in this galaxy. I think thousands of star pilots should send lots of isk because you orchestrated the best thing this universe has seen. I wouldn't think it possible by one man tbh.
This boils down to a "It was the janitor" kinda thingy. Krullz always was standing behind, looking and doing his friggen 6 accounts mining and giving away free kit for the pa thing when he really was the mastermind behind it. And to think that in addition to this he never felt the need to brag about it. It truely makes me reevaluate him to something more than I've used to think about him.
Oh and Cochise, which meeting was it you put everything at the table? I can't remember ever being confronted at a council meeting with you saying it was us who started it.
As I've said elsewhere Fred0, it boils down to you guys in RAZOR being the last people in Eve to be convinced you were fighting the right cause for the right reasons. If the phoenix "survives" in some way shape or form it does so under the banner of RAZOR. From a simple "having fun" perspective I can see your point, the war was a great experience for all concerned and if you are prepared to admit now that was your primary motivation and you didn't care for the "rights" and "wrongs" of it then fine - I'd actually have more respect for you. But if you are still claiming to be the white hat good guys who acted with faith and honour then thats where the problems arise.
We know it didn't go down like that, and while its excellent for people to apologise and come clean after all this time (thats the kinda stuff that allows people to bury the hatchet and end grudges) its annoying to see people like yourself still claiming you weren't in the wrong and refusing to put your hands up and take responsibility.
The whole basis of your political philosophy is founded on the premis that Band of Brothers is evil and has always been evil and that any of their friends, associations or supportors are evil too. This premis and foundation is utterly blown out of the water by the revelation that PA started the GNW and was responsible for the way things turned out. Changes BoB from being a horrible aggressor force into BoB the descendents of freedom-fighters who destroyed a terrible corrupt regime that you were a part of Fred0.
I can see why thats difficult for you. But until you turn the corner and take some responsibility and move on from the past you simply aren't free of the ghost of the past and will be doomed to continue the old PA arrogance and wrongheaded self-delusion into its current RAZOR incarnation.
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