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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Sheha
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Posted - 2006.04.05 11:44:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Sheha on 05/04/2006 11:48:33 Edited by: Sheha on 05/04/2006 11:44:34 Imagine Wal-Mart hiring a fleet of white vans to bring produce to its stores. Imagine an Alliance mining op relying on expanded 4-5km3 haulers to bring ore to it's stations. Ridiculous huh? Freighters are fine. Transports are fine. Haulers are fine. But there is no real 'Truck' in Eve to handle the vastly increase capabilities of mining barges and the mining operations of 20-30 miners who regularly gang to plunder the roids.
I'd like to see expandable 25km3 (base cargo) haulers that can empty a jet can or two in one run. Maybe they could be restricted to .4 and below to keep the noobs happy and npc markets busy. Maybe they should be for ore only, (Ships Class - Ore Carrier) but heavy mining ops, with six Badgers whizzing around grabbing 1/3 of a jet can each in low sec, are a joke. Itty V, though a beautiful indy, only makes the grade when fully fitted local hulls (33km3 approx). That should be the basic standard for an Ore Carrier.
Sheha is Gorath Vaan's alt
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.05 12:23:00 -
[2]
"Carrier"
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Drizit
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Posted - 2006.04.05 13:04:00 -
[3]
There was a suggestion that a hauler that could only pick up cans was brought in. Maybe this would be what you are looking for. A container ship that picks up the can on it's back and trundles off to dump the contents in the station.
Limitations: Can't put/take from the container unless docked. Can't carry anything but cans, either secure or jet.
Other use: Can be used for ammunition drops.
Role bonus: Has 35% more speed when not carrying cargo.
Maybe a bigger version that carries two cans as well requiring skill lvl4 to fly.
Skill Bonus: 5% more speed per level
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Sheha
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Posted - 2006.04.05 18:16:00 -
[4]
Well yeh... food for thought Drizit. Part of the haulers job is also lugging ores from stations near high end ores to refineries, which are never anywhere near them (always 10-12 jumps). To make high end mining worthwhile you need to mine a lot of it. Battleships take a lot of ore, but bigger stuff needs even more yet we are left with a max cargo hauler of 33km3 (Itty 5 expanded) to haul sometimes ten/fifteen/fifty times that much ore, but you can't use that many expanders in 0.0 if you want your payload to survive. Incidentally a corp mate got a 50million unit Trit drop from a convoy that took him two hours to haul and he lost some 20% because the cans popped. A mid sized hauler (even 50km3) would have made the 'gift' worthwhile, instead he vowed never to loot another convoy. I think a med sized hauler is needed quite urgently and moreover has to be as versatile as the existing transports and with a lot more cargo space. If restrictions are needed (and we all know how ccp love their restrictions) the hold could be itself a Plank Container and therefor incapable of accepting GSCs. The cargo could be enhanced with Plank Expanders... another BPO to drop... and a specialised skill added to enhance volume or speed or solidity.
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Gorath Vaan
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Posted - 2006.04.06 22:11:00 -
[5]
A Carrier is not a hauler... it is a Capital class combat ship that uses jump drive and flies drones. It does have a sub5000 cargo bay and 8 low slots, but an Impel has a ~4500 cargo bay with 7 lows. Transports/Industrials are cruiser class equivalent ships. IMHO there is a need for a B/S class equivalent in the industrial sector.
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SentryRaven
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Posted - 2006.04.06 22:28:00 -
[6]
Check out my signature :)
Many people ask for it, but we never got an echo from DEVs... :(
Include Small Freighters into EVE |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.06 22:39:00 -
[7]
Carriers can pack in multiple ships with large cargo holds.
And the "omission" of a ship there is really quite deliverate and clever. There's a LOT of good balance reasons for the current setup.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
SentryRaven
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Posted - 2006.04.06 22:41:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Carriers can pack in multiple ships with large cargo holds.
And the "omission" of a ship there is really quite deliverate and clever. There's a LOT of good balance reasons for the current setup.
But packing Indys into a carrier is more going into a direction of "exploit" rather then game mechanics, cause I doubt they have been designed for that purpose....
Include Small Freighters into EVE |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.06 22:45:00 -
[9]
CCP had a chance to fix that...they instead made the bay larger. I think it's safe t say it's as-designed.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
SentryRaven
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Posted - 2006.04.06 22:50:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Maya Rkell CCP had a chance to fix that...they instead made the bay larger. I think it's safe t say it's as-designed.
I am not concerned about it being safe/unsafe... just not the way it should be. I think you'd agree on that :)
How do you like the idea of a Cargo-Carrier? Take the Carrier, give it another color (not pink again pls) and: -90% drone and ship bay 250k m¦ Cargo
No new ship textures... (compare Tech1 Destroyer and Interdictors... )
cost around 250-400M ISK? (Would need adjustment to the Cargo/Price Ratio...)
Include Small Freighters into EVE |
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.06 22:54:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 06/04/2006 22:54:08 Completely against until they fix the entire stupid cynclosure/jump thing
And if they did fix it, 3 bil would MAYBE be fair as the price.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Viktor Fyretracker
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Posted - 2006.04.06 22:55:00 -
[12]
how would BS class industrials and transports effect balance? considering they would probally only mount a puny frigate class gun and have no tank just like all indys its not like they would be a threat.
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SentryRaven
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Posted - 2006.04.06 22:58:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 06/04/2006 22:54:08 Completely against until they fix the entire stupid cynclosure/jump thing
And if they did fix it, 3 bil would MAYBE be fair as the price.
A ship with less cargo than a freighter? and it should cost 3 times the price of the Freighter? You must be kidding me....
Include Small Freighters into EVE |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.06 23:06:00 -
[14]
Why?
Freighters have to go system by system, not skipping over 20 jumps in a moment.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
SentryRaven
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Posted - 2006.04.06 23:10:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 06/04/2006 23:06:57 Freighters have to go system by system, not skipping over 20 jumps in a moment.
I see where you are heading.... hmm... well... that would need to get nerfed.... Make them use gates not cynos... :) (only the Cargo Version... of course..)
:)
Include Small Freighters into EVE |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.06 23:12:00 -
[16]
Then we're right back to why CCP will NOT introduce a mid-sized freighter for game balance reasons.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
SentryRaven
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Posted - 2006.04.06 23:17:00 -
[17]
hehe... vicious circle, ain't it?
Include Small Freighters into EVE |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.06 23:18:00 -
[18]
No, it's just not gonna happen.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Kittamaru
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Posted - 2006.04.07 03:27:00 -
[19]
it needs to happen though, cause atm we're stuck with a system that don't work.
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Darpz
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Posted - 2006.04.07 03:52:00 -
[20]
I agree no mid size frieghter, full size freighters are too easy to get the way it is. make a new ship the size of a carrier that costs 2-3B and like the frieghter can fit no mods, and can hold about 100-200k m3 of cargo. give it a jump range simlar to a dread (shorter than a full blown carrier) and make it farily fuel ineficient (2-3 times the fuel required to jump a dread)
The only good fix is a DEAD fix |
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Ellaine TashMurkon
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Posted - 2006.04.07 09:05:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Darpz I agree no mid size frieghter, full size freighters are too easy to get the way it is. make a new ship the size of a carrier that costs 2-3B and like the frieghter can fit no mods, and can hold about 100-200k m3 of cargo. give it a jump range simlar to a dread (shorter than a full blown carrier) and make it farily fuel ineficient (2-3 times the fuel required to jump a dread)
The ultimate smugling solution? With such ships, pirates and alliance teritory guards loose their ecologic niche. No blockade wuld stop it :)
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.07 12:47:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Kittamaru it needs to happen though, cause atm we're stuck with a system that don't work.
It works fine. You just don't like it.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Valator Uel
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Posted - 2006.04.07 16:23:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Maya Rkell It works fine. You just don't like it.
Maya you could at least back up your arguements, your posts up to now hold no water.
Imagine fighters only had the choice between cruisers and carriers, nothing inbetween. Wouldn't everyone also complain the day they bring in battleships saying it'll "unbalance" things and nerf the smaller cruisers? This is exactly what is happening now with industrials, people like you are simply afraid that something a little bit bigger will "unbalance" the economy system and nerf the smaller indies. Not true. If the new indy is unbalanced, in terms of cargo space, skills, slots, price, ect, then yes, duh it will unbalance things. If it is balanced in those same terms, then no it won't unbalance things.
The problem with the freighter is it is in a class on it's own, nothing even comes a hundredth of a fraction close to it: you have a 5k m3 0.5 million isk indy compared to the 750k m3 780 million isk freighter. Only those who really want to be big time traders, or huge corps would go for the freighter. Those who just want to be middle-class traders are stuck with small indies. Make the new indy cost 50-100mil, make it slow as hell, give it little to no slots, whatever, as long as we have something to play with.
And in conclusion, look at todays world: you have your big multi-billion dollar ships to haul all that huge cargo and oil, but you also have those with medium sized ships and the small tiny trucks that do the occasional delivery. If you only had to transport 100k m3 of cargo, would you use a 750k m3 freighter? No it's retarded. Just like you need BC and BS inbetween cruisers and motherships/dreads, so do you need a middle-class indy between the current indies and the freighter.
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ragewind
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Posted - 2006.04.07 17:24:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Originally by: Kittamaru it needs to happen though, cause atm we're stuck with a system that don't work.
It works fine. You just don't like it.
ace just the comment from a pvp pirate or NCP'er
if it works fine then i ask ccp to stop all ncp's selling minerals and we will see how well it works when ever 00 area strops geting ships biult due to eve's univers's inability to suport its self make it more realistic you only get itemes at station when they can get the mineral of the players this would shop how good and balanced it is lol fix eves industrial sector! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=319618&page=1 |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.07 18:52:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 07/04/2006 18:52:39
ragewind,
Freespace 0.0 pilot, thanks. We don't pirate (JF have a strict policy on this), and I make my ISKies mostly from trade.
PS, NPC. Not NCP. And they don't sell minerals.
Valator Uel,
I'm afraid that I am not allowed to post the math behind the sort of economics this involves on the forums. Simply because most people won't understand it, apparently.
But suffice to say that a small freighter would mean that NPC trade goods would need removel to prevent a massive ISK influx into the economy, freigher usage would dwindle to near-nothing overnight and logistics greatly simplified, when you are supposed to have to organise to meet logistic needs.
CCP know precisely what they're doing on this.
PS, gameplay>realism
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Pwett
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Posted - 2006.04.07 19:26:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Valator Uel,
I'm afraid that I am not allowed to post the math behind the sort of economics this involves on the forums. Simply because most people won't understand it, apparently.
But suffice to say that a small freighter would mean that NPC trade goods would need removel to prevent a massive ISK influx into the economy, freigher usage would dwindle to near-nothing overnight and logistics greatly simplified, when you are supposed to have to organise to meet logistic needs.
Being a dedicated trader myself, I have to agree with this completely. Small, ostensibly affordable, freighters in combination of sites like eve-central would literally crash the economy. I mean if you follow the bruhaha that occured when CCP released marginal amounts of Zydrine into Empire space, you would see that times seventy-teen gabillion.
But it seems that the OPs problem is mining related more than anything else. What would ne a neat introduction is a 'tug' class mining vessel. Basically something that would use super strong tractors to pull full cans to where you need them. Let them be able to jump with cans in tow. Make it cost and skill-wise comparable to a freighter - but just like how a freighter can't pick up cans in space, this thing can only pick up cans. It can't pick up anything in stations, just dump the cans into your hangar.
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ragewind
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Posted - 2006.04.07 23:05:00 -
[27]
the main drive for a small frighter is down to 2 things the totally junk ability of a freighter the can opening issue aside its lack of any resistance to electro warfair is daft you need capital ship parts to biuld it so that surely classes it has a capital ship but it dont recive the resitance to electronic warfare and scabbling that the others do so it dose seem a lame duck in any hostile area and one hell of a risk to buy
other point of the jerry riged carryers as these are cheeper and unafected by the electro warfair so the main point paps should be that the frighters need a bit better of a bonus to bring them inline with the other capital ships fix eves industrial sector! http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=319618&page=1 |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.08 00:06:00 -
[28]
Carriers can be EW'ed.
Motherships cannot.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Kittamaru
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Posted - 2006.04.08 01:03:00 -
[29]
who really cares?
The biggest problem with solo mining atm is that you have a small can to put it in or a 1 hour jetcan to put it in from which it can be taken. An indy isn't up to the task of grabbing a can in short order!
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Drizit
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Posted - 2006.04.08 11:33:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon The ultimate smugling solution? With such ships, pirates and alliance teritory guards loose their ecologic niche. No blockade wuld stop it :)
So pirates and territory guards don't have the map that shows cyno fields? Nor will they ever see a ship that has to go through to set up the cyno field?
That being said, I am not keen on jumping and setting up cyno fields anyway. This is just an idea for a hauler and not some sort of uber capital ship just for miners. Once you start talking about cyno fields etc, it's a whole new language that even some year or more players can't grasp, let alone a noob looking for a goal to train for. I only have a very basic knowledge of cyno fields and have been playing for a year myself, I only found out that carriers and dreads couldn't use gates about 3 months ago. I think it's best not to even consider jump drives in this.
The impact on the economy that some have stated is more psycological than real. Anyone with 750k m3 of cargo space is always going to have an advantage over someone with less than 1/7th of that space just for the fact that they can do it in one run instead of 8. Those who already own freighters would have a choice of what ship suits the job so they can use a slightly faster medium freighter instead of the huge slow one they use at present if the load requires it.
Existing freighters will still have their niche and people who need to haul large amounts of stuff but not enough to warrant the extortionate cost of a freighter can still move what they need.
If necessary, create a system that only allows the smaller freighters to carry ore and mins. The cargo hold is not sealed against the vacuum of space and so any trade goods will not survive in the hold, the same as dairy products in cans etc currently.
There has to be a way to work around this so that everyone agrees.
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