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Marc McIntyre Crendraven
Knights of Vindication
36
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 19:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
I was recently ganked in Niarja. the thing is I was running a courier contract with a large collateral. The character that issued the contract is the one that attacked me. Now I have never complained about high sec not being safe enough because I like the sandbox element. But common sense says that if I am attacked by my own contracter than the contract should be canceled. I can understand if a different character was used to initiate the gank but this is just ridiculous. Eat Lead!!! Err....Antimatter...whatever! |
Malthus Dethahal
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 19:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:I was recently ganked in Niarja. the thing is I was running a courier contract with a large collateral. The character that issued the contract is the one that attacked me. Now I have never complained about high sec not being safe enough because I like the sandbox element. But common sense says that if I am attacked by my own contracter than the contract should be canceled. I can understand if a different character was used to initiate the gank but this is just ridiculous.
That is a pretty good point. Any sane person would consider the contract void. But then again, what if the guy that attacked you is your friend and he is just testing his guns on your ship. You should be able to manually cancel the contracts. That would make more sense. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
3508
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 20:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:I was recently ganked in Niarja. the thing is I was running a courier contract with a large collateral. The character that issued the contract is the one that attacked me. Now I have never complained about high sec not being safe enough because I like the sandbox element. But common sense says that if I am attacked by my own contracter than the contract should be canceled. I can understand if a different character was used to initiate the gank but this is just ridiculous.
Why is this an exploit?
Did you know people put up courier contracts to Nullsec stations that most players can't even dock in, thereby making it nearly impossible to complete the contract?
Also, how would you fix this? Everyone in EvE can make a 1-day alt to create the courier contract. You should appreciate that this person didn't bother to hide his identity, so you have a better chance at retribution.
I suggest naming the characters & corp responsible, over in the Crimes and Punishment forum. Sorry about your loss. Hopefully you'll take these risks into account on future contract activities.
|
Endovior
Osmosis Inc Li3 Federation
174
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 20:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:I was recently ganked in Niarja. the thing is I was running a courier contract with a large collateral. The character that issued the contract is the one that attacked me.
Translation: "I was greedy, and took a large risk involving a courier contract that led me through a predictable pipe. I did not bother to take any precautions. The contract was bait, and I got burned."
There's a reason why Red Frog accepts contracts with low-skilled contracting alts, and does the actual shipping on an out-of-corp basis. You are now aware of the reason. Bait contracts are a pretty ancient thing in EVE. If you plan to make money as a courier, you need to be prepared for it. |
Marc McIntyre Crendraven
Knights of Vindication
36
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 20:14:00 -
[5] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:I was recently ganked in Niarja. the thing is I was running a courier contract with a large collateral. The character that issued the contract is the one that attacked me. Now I have never complained about high sec not being safe enough because I like the sandbox element. But common sense says that if I am attacked by my own contracter than the contract should be canceled. I can understand if a different character was used to initiate the gank but this is just ridiculous. Why is this an exploit? Did you know people put up courier contracts to Nullsec stations that most players can't even dock in, thereby making it nearly impossible to complete the contract? Also, how would you fix this? Everyone in EvE can make a 1-day alt to create the courier contract. You should appreciate that this person didn't bother to hide his identity, so you have a better chance at retribution. I suggest naming the characters & corp responsible, over in the Crimes and Punishment forum. Sorry about your loss. Hopefully you'll take these risks into account on future contract activities.
Yes, I am aware of all of that, this however was a high sec contract exclusively. I have lost ships to gankers before and have not complained because it was within reasonable mechanics. I think it is fine for a corp mate to grief you in this way because corps are built on trust anyways. But this outside of sane reasoning. If attacked by someone who issued you a contract than im sorry the contract should be cancelled if they are not a corp member. I mean the way it works now goes against all reason and sense. I was actually surprised I didn't get the money back because usually things in EVE are fair and reasonable. Eat Lead!!! Err....Antimatter...whatever! |
Marc McIntyre Crendraven
Knights of Vindication
36
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 20:17:00 -
[6] - Quote
Endovior wrote:Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:I was recently ganked in Niarja. the thing is I was running a courier contract with a large collateral. The character that issued the contract is the one that attacked me. Translation: "I was greedy, and took a large risk involving a courier contract that led me through a predictable pipe. I did not bother to take any precautions. The contract was bait, and I got burned." There's a reason why Red Frog accepts contracts with low-skilled contracting alts, and does the actual shipping on an out-of-corp basis. You are now aware of the reason. Bait contracts are a pretty ancient thing in EVE. If you plan to make money as a courier, you need to be prepared for it.
Dude, I am not against ganking, in fact it adds flavor to the game as I myself have been ganked before and lost much more than i did this time. What I am against is a mechanic that is absolutly, undeniably, ridiculous. I mean in real life this would be laughable, of COURSE i would get my money back, no question. And you need to read the post again, If I was attacked by someone other than the contract holder it would be fine.
Greedy? the payout was only like 20 mil for 12 jumps, come on dude. Eat Lead!!! Err....Antimatter...whatever! |
Mazzara
Gale Force Contractors
1
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 20:22:00 -
[7] - Quote
This is true, you shouldn't be able to attack with the same pilot that issued the contract, or if its a corp contract any members of the corp that issued the contact, if they do there should be a punishment for contract fraud. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
3509
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 20:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:I was recently ganked in Niarja. the thing is I was running a courier contract with a large collateral. The character that issued the contract is the one that attacked me. Now I have never complained about high sec not being safe enough because I like the sandbox element. But common sense says that if I am attacked by my own contracter than the contract should be canceled. I can understand if a different character was used to initiate the gank but this is just ridiculous. Why is this an exploit? Did you know people put up courier contracts to Nullsec stations that most players can't even dock in, thereby making it nearly impossible to complete the contract? Also, how would you fix this? Everyone in EvE can make a 1-day alt to create the courier contract. You should appreciate that this person didn't bother to hide his identity, so you have a better chance at retribution. I suggest naming the characters & corp responsible, over in the Crimes and Punishment forum. Sorry about your loss. Hopefully you'll take these risks into account on future contract activities. Yes, I am aware of all of that, this however was a high sec contract exclusively. I have lost ships to gankers before and have not complained because it was within reasonable mechanics. I think it is fine for a corp mate to grief you in this way because corps are built on trust anyways. But this outside of sane reasoning. If attacked by someone who issued you a contract than im sorry the contract should be cancelled if they are not a corp member. I mean the way it works now goes against all reason and sense. I was actually surprised I didn't get the money back because usually things in EVE are fair and reasonable.
Did the contract you agreed to specifically state they weren't allowed to attack you?
Public contracts can be accepted by anyone, even pilots you are at war with. I see no reason that the contract brokers would even pay attention to who prevented you from delivering the package you were contracted to deliver. They only care about whether you successfully completed the contract, which you didn't.
|
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
4824
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 20:37:00 -
[9] - Quote
Quote: I mean the way it works now goes against all reason and sense. I was actually surprised I didn't get the money back because usually things in EVE are fair and reasonable. Calling troll.
Margin trading scam, trade-box scam, null-sec contract scam, 1 Tritainium for 1 Billion ISK scam, Double your ISK scam... and then you have suicide ganking, spies, AWOXers, blobbing, etc...
Nothing in EVE is fair or reasonable. Anyone who has actually played the game knows this. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Tavaz
Veldspar Industries Brave Collective
3
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 20:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
Use a contracting alt. Don't take contracts from sketchy sources. Limit yourself to what you can afford to lose. Learn from your mistake and move on. Sorry, but this isn't the first time this has happened and won't be the last. EVE is a harsh mistress, but if you're a good |
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
3509
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 20:51:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mazzara wrote:This is true, you shouldn't be able to attack with the same pilot that issued the contract, or if its a corp contract any members of the corp that issued the contact, if they do there should be a punishment for contract fraud.
Why?
Seriously, why?
A courier contract is: You will move this package from point A to point B for this reward. If you fail to complete it, you lose any collateral.
It is neutral to politics, and I see no reason to enforce "I failed because xxx... " Frankly, the reason for your failure is irrelevant!
And contract Fraud. I can put up a contract for a Raven, rename it to CNR, advertise it as a CNR, and if someone buys the raven for the CNR price there is no retribution. Have you seen this trailer by CCP: Causality
Deception, Theft, and Espionage are a fundamental component of the EvE universe, why should courier contracts be exempt from this?
|
Marc McIntyre Crendraven
Knights of Vindication
36
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 20:52:00 -
[12] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Quote: I mean the way it works now goes against all reason and sense. I was actually surprised I didn't get the money back because usually things in EVE are fair and reasonable. Calling troll. Margin trading scam, trade-box scam, null-sec contract scam, 1 Tritainium for 1 Billion ISK scam, Double your ISK scam... and then you have suicide ganking, spies, AWOXers, blobbing, etc... Nothing in EVE is fair or reasonable. Anyone who has actually played the game knows this.
ahh, playing the troll card I see. let me clarify sometihng = fairness in terms of logical sense.
margin trading scam = although this one is debated, it's kind of like declaring bankrupcy where you don't have to but something from market. the sale never actually goes through.
trade box scam = you get exactly what you see, your fault if you were not looking what that is.
null-sec contract scam = everyone know you go to null-sec be prepared to die because there is no law there, duh
1 trit for 1 bil = same as trade-box scam
double your isk scam = completely relying on someone's honesty, not smart
suicide ganking, spies, awoxers, blobbing = all makes perfect sense with game mechanics.
Attacking person who you have made a legal contract for = completely ok? dafug im sorry but common sense demands a change Eat Lead!!! Err....Antimatter...whatever! |
Marc McIntyre Crendraven
Knights of Vindication
36
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 20:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Mazzara wrote:This is true, you shouldn't be able to attack with the same pilot that issued the contract, or if its a corp contract any members of the corp that issued the contact, if they do there should be a punishment for contract fraud. Why? Seriously, why? A courier contract is: You will move this package from point A to point B for this reward. If you fail to complete it, you lose any collateral. It is neutral to politics, and I see no reason to enforce "I failed because xxx... " Frankly, the reason for your failure is irrelevant! And contract Fraud. I can put up a contract for a Raven, rename it to CNR, advertise it as a CNR, and if someone buys the raven for the CNR price there is no retribution. Have you seen this trailer by CCP: CausalityDeception, Theft, and Espionage are a fundamental component of the EvE universe, why should courier contracts be exempt from this?
Geez, will you please please read the post again, I'm sorry but it's like you are skipping everything.
I am all for courier contracts being traps and everything, like I have said numerous times, it's part of the sandbox. but if you enter into a legal contract and then attack the person you have working for you, why can't they cancel contract? If the person alerts corpmates to attack me than thats fine, at least it wasnt him. I have lost more than this from gankers and did not complain because it was within reason, but a mechanic that is not within reason is not a good mechanic. Eat Lead!!! Err....Antimatter...whatever! |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
3511
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 21:16:00 -
[14] - Quote
Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Mazzara wrote:This is true, you shouldn't be able to attack with the same pilot that issued the contract, or if its a corp contract any members of the corp that issued the contact, if they do there should be a punishment for contract fraud. Why? Seriously, why? A courier contract is: You will move this package from point A to point B for this reward. If you fail to complete it, you lose any collateral. It is neutral to politics, and I see no reason to enforce "I failed because xxx... " Frankly, the reason for your failure is irrelevant! And contract Fraud. I can put up a contract for a Raven, rename it to CNR, advertise it as a CNR, and if someone buys the raven for the CNR price there is no retribution. Have you seen this trailer by CCP: CausalityDeception, Theft, and Espionage are a fundamental component of the EvE universe, why should courier contracts be exempt from this? Geez, will you please please read the post again, I'm sorry but it's like you are skipping everything. I am all for courier contracts being traps and everything, like I have said numerous times, it's part of the sandbox. but if you enter into a legal contract and then attack the person you have working for you, why can't they cancel contract? If the person alerts corpmates to attack me than thats fine, at least it wasnt him. I have lost more than this from gankers and did not complain because it was within reason, but a mechanic that is not within reason is not a good mechanic.
To be frank, I don't see a way you could implement it fairly.
If you still have the contracted goods, you can still complete the contract. If you can't copmlete the contract, I can see some type of mechanic where you return the goods and get some of your collateral back (-15% restocking fee). However, is that a fair or legitimate conclusion? There are lost opportunity costs on behalf of your contractor that he'll feel you need to pay, and you feel you shouldn't have to pay anything because you blame him (whether true or not) for your inability to complete the contract.
If you lost the contracted goods, you can't return them. So there is no way you can make the contract right with him. And I can think of several insidious reasons to take a contract from an enemy: Perhaps you only accepted his contract as a ploy to move contraband through his patrolled area. If you got the collateral back, and he loses his package, then you just opened the door for any of his enemies (you) to cause financial loss if he stopped your weapon smuggling operation!
You see, contracts must remain politically neutral, because the contract commission just doesn't have the resources to investigate why you lost the packages you contractually agreed to deliver! |
Marc McIntyre Crendraven
Knights of Vindication
36
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 21:23:00 -
[15] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Mazzara wrote:This is true, you shouldn't be able to attack with the same pilot that issued the contract, or if its a corp contract any members of the corp that issued the contact, if they do there should be a punishment for contract fraud. Why? Seriously, why? A courier contract is: You will move this package from point A to point B for this reward. If you fail to complete it, you lose any collateral. It is neutral to politics, and I see no reason to enforce "I failed because xxx... " Frankly, the reason for your failure is irrelevant! And contract Fraud. I can put up a contract for a Raven, rename it to CNR, advertise it as a CNR, and if someone buys the raven for the CNR price there is no retribution. Have you seen this trailer by CCP: CausalityDeception, Theft, and Espionage are a fundamental component of the EvE universe, why should courier contracts be exempt from this? Geez, will you please please read the post again, I'm sorry but it's like you are skipping everything. I am all for courier contracts being traps and everything, like I have said numerous times, it's part of the sandbox. but if you enter into a legal contract and then attack the person you have working for you, why can't they cancel contract? If the person alerts corpmates to attack me than thats fine, at least it wasnt him. I have lost more than this from gankers and did not complain because it was within reason, but a mechanic that is not within reason is not a good mechanic. To be frank, I don't see a way you could implement it fairly. If you still have the contracted goods, you can still complete the contract. If you can't copmlete the contract, I can see some type of mechanic where you return the goods and get some of your collateral back (-15% restocking fee). However, is that a fair or legitimate conclusion? There are lost opportunity costs on behalf of your contractor that he'll feel you need to pay, and you feel you shouldn't have to pay anything because you blame him (whether true or not) for your inability to complete the contract. If you lost the contracted goods, you can't return them. So there is no way you can make the contract right with him. And I can think of several insidious reasons to take a contract from an enemy: Perhaps you only accepted his contract as a ploy to move contraband through his patrolled area. If you got the collateral back, and he loses his package, then you just opened the door for any of his enemies (you) to cause financial loss if he stopped your weapon smuggling operation! You see, contracts must remain politically neutral, because the contract commission just doesn't have the resources to investigate why you lost the packages you contractually agreed to deliver!
It's extremely easy to implement fairly, if contractor attacks me than it's on him. if it was someone else than it's on me. I means here is an example. I agree to move stuff for a guy named tim, tim shakes my hand and when I turn around he stabs me. How is it hard to determine who's fault it is that the contract wasn't completed? Why do I have to pay when he stabbed me? if a friend of his was around the corner and stabbed me than tim could claim innocence and there is no way to prove him guilty, in which case it's on me that the contract wasn't completed. I mean come on people. this is extremly simple Eat Lead!!! Err....Antimatter...whatever! |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
372
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 21:55:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mazzara wrote:This is true, you shouldn't be able to attack with the same pilot that issued the contract, or if its a corp contract any members of the corp that issued the contact, if they do there should be a punishment for contract fraud.
You got got by one of the older tricks in eve. Welcome to eve......
When you take the contract they know (or can guess pretty good) what route you will take.
You got 3 options here.
1. Do not take the autopilot shortest route to desto. Most times they will be camped on a gate on this route.
2. do it the professional courier way. Alt takes contract, re rewraps in their own courier contract and hauler takes that contract up. this would be how red frog runs business as usual even if you bother to war dec them. YOu also don't know when the hell the actual red frog hauler pilot is coming. And you don't even have the real name to locator agent either.
3. Don't rush the courier job, Its got several days, don't be looking to pick it up and drop off in an hour or less. They see contract accepted, they will assume a rush delivery and get a real good estimate of your eta to gate. they are playing mind games, play them back and deliver several hours to days later. Camping psychology 101....longer they are there with no action more bored they will be.
In 0.0 you would have got me maybe for an hour of this crap detail before the urge to lie and say oh crap, wifey needs me would arise and I'd log off and get more excitement mission running on an empire alt. The punchline being mission running is boring, but less boring than camping lol. Life is too short to have circle jerks on gates for hours on end imo.
You can also see this coming down the road to know if you need to do the above. If the cargo you are carrying is collateral'd high but looking at the package its not worth the collateral.....its usually a sign.
|
Marc McIntyre Crendraven
Knights of Vindication
36
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 22:08:00 -
[17] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote:Mazzara wrote:This is true, you shouldn't be able to attack with the same pilot that issued the contract, or if its a corp contract any members of the corp that issued the contact, if they do there should be a punishment for contract fraud. You got got by one of the older tricks in eve. Welcome to eve...... When you take the contract they know (or can guess pretty good) what route you will take. You got 3 options here. 1. Do not take the autopilot shortest route to desto. Most times they will be camped on a gate on this route. 2. do it the professional courier way. Alt takes contract, re rewraps in their own courier contract and hauler takes that contract up. this would be how red frog runs business as usual even if you bother to war dec them. YOu also don't know when the hell the actual red frog hauler pilot is coming. And you don't even have the real name to locator agent either. 3. Don't rush the courier job, Its got several days, don't be looking to pick it up and drop off in an hour or less. They see contract accepted, they will assume a rush delivery and get a real good estimate of your eta to gate. they are playing mind games, play them back and deliver several hours to days later. Camping psychology 101....longer they are there with no action more bored they will be. In 0.0 you would have got me maybe for an hour of this crap detail before the urge to lie and say oh crap, wifey needs me would arise and I'd log off and get more excitement mission running on an empire alt. The punchline being mission running is boring, but less boring than camping lol. Life is too short to have circle jerks on gates for hours on end imo. You can also see this coming down the road to know if you need to do the above. If the cargo you are carrying is collateral'd high but looking at the package its not worth the collateral.....its usually a sign.
good advice here, I appreciate it, but I am addressing a poor game mechanic right now, not the best way to move freight. Eat Lead!!! Err....Antimatter...whatever! |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
3512
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 22:27:00 -
[18] - Quote
Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Mazzara wrote:This is true, you shouldn't be able to attack with the same pilot that issued the contract, or if its a corp contract any members of the corp that issued the contact, if they do there should be a punishment for contract fraud. Why? Seriously, why? A courier contract is: You will move this package from point A to point B for this reward. If you fail to complete it, you lose any collateral. It is neutral to politics, and I see no reason to enforce "I failed because xxx... " Frankly, the reason for your failure is irrelevant! And contract Fraud. I can put up a contract for a Raven, rename it to CNR, advertise it as a CNR, and if someone buys the raven for the CNR price there is no retribution. Have you seen this trailer by CCP: CausalityDeception, Theft, and Espionage are a fundamental component of the EvE universe, why should courier contracts be exempt from this? Geez, will you please please read the post again, I'm sorry but it's like you are skipping everything. I am all for courier contracts being traps and everything, like I have said numerous times, it's part of the sandbox. but if you enter into a legal contract and then attack the person you have working for you, why can't they cancel contract? If the person alerts corpmates to attack me than thats fine, at least it wasnt him. I have lost more than this from gankers and did not complain because it was within reason, but a mechanic that is not within reason is not a good mechanic. To be frank, I don't see a way you could implement it fairly. If you still have the contracted goods, you can still complete the contract. If you can't copmlete the contract, I can see some type of mechanic where you return the goods and get some of your collateral back (-15% restocking fee). However, is that a fair or legitimate conclusion? There are lost opportunity costs on behalf of your contractor that he'll feel you need to pay, and you feel you shouldn't have to pay anything because you blame him (whether true or not) for your inability to complete the contract. If you lost the contracted goods, you can't return them. So there is no way you can make the contract right with him. And I can think of several insidious reasons to take a contract from an enemy: Perhaps you only accepted his contract as a ploy to move contraband through his patrolled area. If you got the collateral back, and he loses his package, then you just opened the door for any of his enemies (you) to cause financial loss if he stopped your weapon smuggling operation! You see, contracts must remain politically neutral, because the contract commission just doesn't have the resources to investigate why you lost the packages you contractually agreed to deliver! It's extremely easy to implement fairly, if contractor attacks me than it's on him. if it was someone else than it's on me. I means here is an example. I agree to move stuff for a guy named tim, tim shakes my hand and when I turn around he stabs me. How is it hard to determine who's fault it is that the contract wasn't completed? Why do I have to pay when he stabbed me? if a friend of his was around the corner and stabbed me than tim could claim innocence and there is no way to prove him guilty, in which case it's on me that the contract wasn't completed. I mean come on people. this is extremly simple I have updated the OP to reflect some more thoughts
But the case you just described NEVER happens in EvE. The contract is public, and handled through brokers. With a public contractor, the contractor has no say who the broker gives the contract to. You only shake hands with a broker, and the broker never stabs you in the back!
Let me give you a more entertaining example: You are a trucker, accepting contracts from some moving company. You pickup a contract to move some soldiers belongings to a house on a military base. That soldier, who happened to be guarding the base, stops your van from coming on base because you don't have the proper clearance. It is NOT the soldiers fault you can't complete the contract, because you took the contract from the moving company claiming you could deliver to the military base. Whether you realized it was military base is irrelevant. Whether the soldier personally destroyed the UHAUL as it forced its way onto base is irrelevant. Your contract says you will take FULL responsibility for delivering the package to the destination, or you will forfeit the collateral.
The ENTIRE EvE universe is a war zone, irregardless of whether you are taking sides in any particular conflict. Ship destruction happens everywhere, for many reasons, and it makes complete sense that the broker's commission just doesn't have the resources to determine if you were "fairly" blown up by the character or corp that setup the courier contract. And if they DID start refunding collateral in the manner you suggest, they'd drown in political hurricane to ensue. To keep business simple and practical, they stay neutral. You know who requested the contract, you know where the contract is heading to, it is your responsibility to move the contract to the destination, and deal with any and all potential threats you may encounter. Failure forfeits your collateral, plain and simple! |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
4828
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 22:28:00 -
[19] - Quote
Quote:I am addressing a poor game mechanic right now, not the best way to move freight.
And we're telling you it isn't a poor game mechanic... it's like every other mechanic in the game; it doesn't care of someone screws you over. It's YOUR job to protect yourself... even from your friends/employers (especially from your friends/employers). Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1585
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 22:30:00 -
[20] - Quote
There's no point to changing the mechanics, because its so trivially easy to issue the contract through an alt. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
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Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
644
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 22:35:00 -
[21] - Quote
its an exploit due to people useing low isk items with a high collateral and then pastic wrapped so you dont know its a simple 1 isk item or something so its a case of Bait then gank.. its literally a mechanic to pay people to gank you and its flawed and wrong _______________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg
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Endovior
Osmosis Inc Li3 Federation
175
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 22:53:00 -
[22] - Quote
Seranova Farreach wrote:its an exploit due to people useing low isk items with a high collateral and then pastic wrapped so you dont know its a simple 1 isk item or something so its a case of Bait then gank.. its literally a mechanic to pay people to gank you and its flawed and wrong You can look inside the package, y'know. Sure, some people set ridiculous collateral values so they can wreck you and profit... but some other people are idiots, and set low collateral values, which make it possible for people to profit by intentionally failing the contract and keeping the loot. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
13754
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 22:54:00 -
[23] - Quote
Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:I was recently ganked in Niarja. the thing is I was running a courier contract with a large collateral. The character that issued the contract is the one that attacked me. Now I have never complained about high sec not being safe enough because I like the sandbox element. But common sense says that if I am attacked by my own contracter than the contract should be canceled. I can understand if a different character was used to initiate the gank but this is just ridiculous.
As it currently stands, If I am doing work for a person and they decide to keep me from doing that work I am the one who has to pay for it. I'm sorry but that's a completely broken game mechanic. If you don't want your own contract completed than you should pay the price. The authorities would make you forfeit the contract. However, if it was another character who attacked then the contract issuer could claim innocence.
Nothing else in EVE really works this way, here are some examples.
I join corp, corpies attack me and I lose ISK, guess what, I can leave the corp, yay!!!
I go into low-sec and get killed, guess what, I can leave low-sec, yay!!!
I make contract with guy and give put up tons of collateral to reflect my honesty, he turns around and kills me in high sec, guess what, he gets the collateral given to him for his crime, dafug?!?!? there is no way out like other aspects of EVE.
The collateral is held by the SCC, an NPC corp, why would they give it to the criminal?
Welcome to EVE. We're allowed to be mean, deceiful and greedy if we like. CCP regard those as issues to be solved between ourselves.
1 Kings 12:11
|
Marc McIntyre Crendraven
Knights of Vindication
37
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 23:05:00 -
[24] - Quote
Concord knows who's fault it is, the broker would simply give the collateral back if the issuer was the one that attacked. This still allows someone to use friends or alts to kill the courier for collateral. Eat Lead!!! Err....Antimatter...whatever! |
Aurora Fatalis
Stillwater Corporation
74
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 23:19:00 -
[25] - Quote
Write your own contracts instead of using the supplied contracts that lack small print. If Chribba told you not to trust him, would you? |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
3514
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 23:19:00 -
[26] - Quote
Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:Concord knows who's fault it is, the broker would simply give the collateral back if the issuer was the one that attacked. This still allows someone to use friends or alts to kill the courier for collateral.
No one is denying that the guy issuing the contracted ganked the guy that accepted the contract.
What is being disputed is whether that was a fair and appropriate thing for the guy issuing the contract to do.
|
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
55
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 23:27:00 -
[27] - Quote
Not an exploit. It is a game Feature.
If the payout relation to the collateral is too big, don't take the contract or, simply use another character to accept the contract then move it to the pilot for delivery.
Basically: suspect everything is a trap and you will fare better in this game than you did before. Having an Alt accept the contract for you so you can move it is safer since it makes it nearly impossible for the potential ganker to target you. Unless, of course, you do something silly like have the contract acceptor and contract mover in the same corp or similar name. But that should be obvious. |
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
55
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 23:30:00 -
[28] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:Concord knows who's fault it is, the broker would simply give the collateral back if the issuer was the one that attacked. This still allows someone to use friends or alts to kill the courier for collateral. No one is denying that the guy issuing the contracted ganked the guy that accepted the contract. What is being disputed is whether that was a fair and appropriate thing for the guy issuing the contract to do.
Its not fair.
It was stupid of the ganker to reveal his hand that way however. He should have used an alt to create the contract.
At best you punish stupid gankers with the OPs proposal. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1044
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 23:35:00 -
[29] - Quote
didnt even know this still happened.
i read about stuff like this before i even started playing. its incidents like this that lead to me joining in the first place. although the OP may have been exploited, the game has not. bravo. There are no vets in EVE. Only varying levels of Noobery. |
Marsan
Caldari Provisions
202
|
Posted - 2014.02.06 23:59:00 -
[30] - Quote
The OP still doesn't understand that there is no fix for this. Sure CCP could prevent this case from happening, but even if they had the OP would still be in the same boat. Why because the scammer would have simply used an alt to create the contract. Fixing this issue won't change the ability to pull this scam, and then is no way to prevent the scam from happening. Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a hopeful small portion of the community. |
|
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
373
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 00:03:00 -
[31] - Quote
Seranova Farreach wrote:its an exploit due to people useing low isk items with a high collateral and then pastic wrapped so you dont know its a simple 1 isk item or something so its a case of Bait then gank.. its literally a mechanic to pay people to gank you and its flawed and wrong
okay...so poof ccp "fixes" this. Guess what the "griefers" will do. Make a contract alt, out of corp. Lots of coding and testing and minutes later this trick is still in play. Alts sees the pickup, they engage with main (and his friends). There ya go....its all out corp and contract issuer name.....and the hauler is still gettting jumped anyway. No longer an exploit now...happy now?
Well that I have to question the intelligence of independent haulers anyway. Unless player base has become real generous last I even thought about doing these the pay was jsut not there. I'd in fact make out better working for Red Frog when I rolled around in a charon when I had one. Which leads to yet another indicator of potential gank issues. If its too good to be true, it probably is.
That is....if I really need stuff shipped and cba to "rent" a charon and fly it around I would pay red frog (others) for it and get reliable and fast service. With corps like them around you must ask 1 question.
If they exist, why would anyone put up courier contracts that pay equal to if not more than they would for RF hauling? this screams gank setup, or at least should. When you have reliable and established hauling corps where is the business (or common) sense to roll the dice on open contracts. Unless, ofc, one is looking to bait a hauler. Greed kills, even in empire.
|
Marc McIntyre Crendraven
Knights of Vindication
37
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 00:03:00 -
[32] - Quote
Marsan wrote:The OP still doesn't understand that there is no fix for this. Sure CCP could prevent this case from happening, but even if they had the OP would still be in the same boat. Why because the scammer would have simply used an alt to create the contract. Fixing this issue won't change the ability to pull this scam, and then is no way to prevent the scam from happening.
I don't want the scam to be fixed at all, please read my posts. using an alt is a clever way to scam people. I just think they should not be allowed to use the contract issuer because it makes the scam far to easy, and it just doesnt make sense either Eat Lead!!! Err....Antimatter...whatever! |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1044
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 00:34:00 -
[33] - Quote
Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote: because it makes the scam far to easy, and it just doesnt make sense either
it does not make it any easier to carry out the scam. what it makes it easy to do is avoid it or retaliate against lol EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
373
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 00:34:00 -
[34] - Quote
Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:Marsan wrote:The OP still doesn't understand that there is no fix for this. Sure CCP could prevent this case from happening, but even if they had the OP would still be in the same boat. Why because the scammer would have simply used an alt to create the contract. Fixing this issue won't change the ability to pull this scam, and then is no way to prevent the scam from happening. I don't want the scam to be fixed at all, please read my posts. using an alt is a clever way to scam people. I just think they should not be allowed to use the contract issuer because it makes the scam far to easy, and it just doesnt make sense either
Your problem is like I said if "fixed", they'd use a contract alt. And to be "safer"....a courier would still need an alt. Or end up in the same spot they are in now. Still ganked, jsut not by issuer or their corp. Thats dev time and cost that once done is really a waste really.
Its not adding pita factor to the "griefer". This could quite simply be the "jita alt". One of eves most common alts....fire it up and see what jita (or other trade hub of choice) prices are quickly and accurately as online source can have prices off by hours depending on updates sent to them. Contract skills not exactly carrier complexity and length to train to post contracts.
If alt poisoned by too many ganks setups so known its biomass and start again. This is mere minutes if they don't care about wtf they look lke in char creation editor. The "hardest" part of the process is flying to trade hub from noob system they get put in really. |
Nartel Vortok
Love Squad Black Legion.
49
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 00:44:00 -
[35] - Quote
Maybe you should get good? |
F3X5ON
IT'S HAPPENING.
13
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 00:47:00 -
[36] - Quote
So many special snowflakes. |
Ammzi
Love Squad Black Legion.
1656
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 00:48:00 -
[37] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Quote: I mean the way it works now goes against all reason and sense. I was actually surprised I didn't get the money back because usually things in EVE are fair and reasonable. Calling troll.
Actually we did kill him. Was fun.
|
Bane Nucleus
Sky Fighters
904
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 00:53:00 -
[38] - Quote
I understand what the OP is trying to say. A change to that wouldn't matter though. People would just shoot you with alts, and you'd still lose out.
There is one simple solution here. Never haul with the same toon you accepted the contract with. That is a mechanic currently in game that allows you to avoid the situation you have described.
Lastly, well done to whomever shot you hahaha No trolling please |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
2323
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 01:08:00 -
[39] - Quote
Endovior wrote:Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:I was recently ganked in Niarja. the thing is I was running a courier contract with a large collateral. The character that issued the contract is the one that attacked me. Translation: "I was greedy, and took a large risk involving a courier contract that led me through a predictable pipe. I did not bother to take any precautions. The contract was bait, and I got burned." There's a reason why Red Frog accepts contracts with low-skilled contracting alts, and does the actual shipping on an out-of-corp basis. You are now aware of the reason. Bait contracts are a pretty ancient thing in EVE. If you plan to make money as a courier, you need to be prepared for it.
This is the truth about Red Frog, I can confirm. I found this out a bit before Halloween when I attempted to infiltrate them. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Deadonstick Puppyseeker
Scarlet...Widow
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 02:01:00 -
[40] - Quote
OP is totally right. I'm not sure what faction regulates the validity of contracts (I know that for the Caldari it's probably the business tribunal), but they really need to have their heads up their own asses to allow something like this.
Same should go for people making contracts to null stations you're disallowed to dock in. Impossible contracts, or contract givers attacking you should result in a void of the contract.
On a different, albeit related note, I also think that things like not being able to enter the desired system due to congestion should result in an extension of the contract. |
|
FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
345
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 02:46:00 -
[41] - Quote
You should not be asking for this nerf... instead you should be encouraging people like your ganker to act the way he did. Now, people can look up his contracts, and his killboard stats, and then know that he is an untrustworthy bastard who will scam you and kill you. if he used an alt, then his reputation would be intact. http://eveion.blogspot.com/ |
Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
168
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 03:14:00 -
[42] - Quote
Research your contracts before accepting. This is how this scam works. Careless Freighter pilots..... The Law is a point of View |
Dramaticus
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
449
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 03:20:00 -
[43] - Quote
What if the person who assigned the contract and then attacked you has multiple personality disorder.
Now that I think about it would that be account sharing? The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal
The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them |
Infinity Ziona
Drags are Bud
1612
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 03:51:00 -
[44] - Quote
Malthus Dethahal wrote:Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:I was recently ganked in Niarja. the thing is I was running a courier contract with a large collateral. The character that issued the contract is the one that attacked me. Now I have never complained about high sec not being safe enough because I like the sandbox element. But common sense says that if I am attacked by my own contracter than the contract should be canceled. I can understand if a different character was used to initiate the gank but this is just ridiculous. That is a pretty good point. Any sane person would consider the contract void. But then again, what if the guy that attacked you is your friend and he is just testing his guns on your ship. You should be able to manually cancel the contracts. That would make more sense. Yeah legally if you enter into a contract the contract is automatically voided if the person issuing the contract deliberately makes it unable to be fulfilled. At least in English law / Australian law. Want to make billions a week solo running combat sites in null sec? -á Read my Exploratation Guide here -> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=309467 |
Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
168
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 03:56:00 -
[45] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Malthus Dethahal wrote:Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:I was recently ganked in Niarja. the thing is I was running a courier contract with a large collateral. The character that issued the contract is the one that attacked me. Now I have never complained about high sec not being safe enough because I like the sandbox element. But common sense says that if I am attacked by my own contracter than the contract should be canceled. I can understand if a different character was used to initiate the gank but this is just ridiculous. That is a pretty good point. Any sane person would consider the contract void. But then again, what if the guy that attacked you is your friend and he is just testing his guns on your ship. You should be able to manually cancel the contracts. That would make more sense. Yeah legally if you enter into a contract the contract is automatically voided if the person issuing the contract deliberately makes it unable to be fulfilled. At least in English law / Australian law.
All of this is a moot point. Nothing will stop these scams from just having a friend or alt issue the contract. I'm actually REALLY surprised it was the same char and not an alt to begin with. All of this goes back to do your research, KNOW what you're doing, and take every precaution. But Freighter Pilots seem to(judging on thread after thread of 'nerf the gankers/give my freighter infini-EHP') think they can just cruise along afk/autopiloting their merry way along with no risk, consequence, or otherwise.
Well.... to OP and Every other 'My Poor Freighter' thread out there.... Wake up, Buttercup, and welcome to Eve. The Law is a point of View |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2388
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 03:59:00 -
[46] - Quote
So, OP.
Now that you've had a little time to dry your eyes and catch your breath after the beating you just took at the hands your your employer...
...What do YOU plan to do to alleviate your risk of running afoul of this in the future?
Are you going to take the solid advice presented in this thread?
Are you going to make this thread crying foul to CCP, and nothing else?
Are you going to quit EVE?
Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
Linkxsc162534
Traps 'R' Us Bask of Fail
39
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 04:10:00 -
[47] - Quote
My solution.
Add a public standing system for contracts where players can rate people who make contracts (along with maybe giving them a little bit of space to comment about it) Similar to most auction websites, and leaving feedback on sellers. Similarly, have another one where you can rate couriers you hire.
Make it so only people who have done a job for them can rate/comment. Perhaps make it so that players can also post a list of previously done successful/failed contracts.
This however could ALSO be exploited. Players could make alts and run lots of "padding" contracts, and give themselves great ratings. I liek this form of fun better though than the current system. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
373
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 04:38:00 -
[48] - Quote
Linkxsc162534 wrote:My solution.
Add a public standing system for contracts where players can rate people who make contracts (along with maybe giving them a little bit of space to comment about it) Similar to most auction websites, and leaving feedback on sellers. Similarly, have another one where you can rate couriers you hire.
Make it so only people who have done a job for them can rate/comment. Perhaps make it so that players can also post a list of previously done successful/failed contracts.
This however could ALSO be exploited. Players could make alts and run lots of "padding" contracts, and give themselves great ratings. I liek this form of fun better though than the current system.
You also have the issue of players like me are really nice to friends and have broken open sealed packages on free move thier crap runs. This is a failed contract and counts against my freighter alt.
Reason I broke the contract was I'd tell peeps make the package no larger than charon at level 4 size limits. Some could not follow these simple instructions So rather than wait for for them to redo the whole contracting thing (if even online to tell them to do it) I'd break the old one, put thier assembled ships in new personal contracts that fit under level 4 size limits, do the runs needed to move it all and call it done.
Since free there were no collateral games. I go boom we all screwed lol. i am an honest player....all stuff moved and not stolen. This stat would not show that. It would show the opposite in fact. |
Anomaly One
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
261
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 05:19:00 -
[49] - Quote
Quote: I join corp, corpies attack me and I lose ISK, guess what, I can leave the corp, yay!!!
I go into low-sec and get killed, guess what, I can leave low-sec, yay!!!
I make contract with guy and give put up tons of collateral to reflect my honesty, he turns around and kills me in high sec, guess what, he gets the collateral given to him for his crime, dafug?!?!? there is no way out like other aspects of EVE.
WRONG you can check and see that the collateral is much larger than the deposit, when you accept a contract you accept the collateral (common sense?) and the risks that come with shipping it..
Also common sense? really it's like this kind of thing never happens irl insurance embezzlement or anything like that right Also what would prevent the character that issued the contract from hiring a bunch of mercs to shoot you? or do you also want to limit that... Never forget. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8sfaN8zT8E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l_ZjVyRxx4 Trust me, I'm an Anomaly. DUST 514 FOR PC |
Anomaly One
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
261
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 05:21:00 -
[50] - Quote
Linkxsc162534 wrote:My solution.
Add a public standing system for contracts where players can rate people who make contracts (along with maybe giving them a little bit of space to comment about it) Similar to most auction websites, and leaving feedback on sellers. Similarly, have another one where you can rate couriers you hire.
Make it so only people who have done a job for them can rate/comment. Perhaps make it so that players can also post a list of previously done successful/failed contracts.
This however could ALSO be exploited. Players could make alts and run lots of "padding" contracts, and give themselves great ratings. I liek this form of fun better though than the current system.
horrible idea.. one can create multiple alts to down vote his opponents and up-vote himself this is nothing different than the current bounty system completely useless way of measuring someones worth.. Never forget. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8sfaN8zT8E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l_ZjVyRxx4 Trust me, I'm an Anomaly. DUST 514 FOR PC |
|
Marc McIntyre Crendraven
Knights of Vindication
41
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 05:27:00 -
[51] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:Malthus Dethahal wrote:Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:I was recently ganked in Niarja. the thing is I was running a courier contract with a large collateral. The character that issued the contract is the one that attacked me. Now I have never complained about high sec not being safe enough because I like the sandbox element. But common sense says that if I am attacked by my own contracter than the contract should be canceled. I can understand if a different character was used to initiate the gank but this is just ridiculous. That is a pretty good point. Any sane person would consider the contract void. But then again, what if the guy that attacked you is your friend and he is just testing his guns on your ship. You should be able to manually cancel the contracts. That would make more sense. Yeah legally if you enter into a contract the contract is automatically voided if the person issuing the contract deliberately makes it unable to be fulfilled. At least in English law / Australian law. All of this is a moot point. Nothing will stop these scams from just having a friend or alt issue the contract. I'm actually REALLY surprised it was the same char and not an alt to begin with. All of this goes back to do your research, KNOW what you're doing, and take every precaution. But Freighter Pilots seem to(judging on thread after thread of 'nerf the gankers/give my freighter infini-EHP') think they can just cruise along afk/autopiloting their merry way along with no risk, consequence, or otherwise. Well.... to OP and Every other 'My Poor Freighter' thread out there.... Wake up, Buttercup, and welcome to Eve.
I totally agree with your first sentence, and rightly so, people should be able to hire mercs no problem. And I'll say it again because so many here just don't seem to read before they post. I have lost many ships to ganking, griefing, etc. Lost a MAckinaw while mining, lost a navy BS when i shot at a thief, lost an orca to a corp griefer etc etc. I have been playing for 3 years now and I have never complained about these things because they were fair and everything, but when this happened I honestly thought I would be getting my collateral back because my contractor didn't let me do the job. But instead he gets the ISK from me when he prevented me from doing the job? this goes against logic and normal law.
And people please stop saying that people will still have a way to do this scam, OF COURSE THEY WILL. That has nothing to do with the post. Eat Lead!!! Err....Antimatter...whatever! |
Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
170
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 05:36:00 -
[52] - Quote
I'll echo what was said earlier:
That this was the same character that did this is extremely surprising in and of itself. Contract scamming like this has been going on for a LONG time. You should have seen this with some research.
Also like has been said, you accepted the risk when you paid the collateral. I'm also P sure he's not the only one that shot you since 1 ship can't gank a freighter, so how would you define that? The Law is a point of View |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
2388
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 05:47:00 -
[53] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:I'll echo what was said earlier:
That this was the same character that did this is extremely surprising in and of itself. Contract scamming like this has been going on for a LONG time. You should have seen this with some research.
Also like has been said, you accepted the risk when you paid the collateral. I'm also P sure he's not the only one that shot you since 1 ship can't gank a freighter, so how would you define that?
What he didn't tell us was that the contract was for 1 trit at 2bil collateral from Jita -> Hek thru Rancer. Rifterlings pirate corporation is now recruitng members for lowsec PvP operations. Newbie friendly, free T1 frigate and dessy hangar, solo tutoring and PvP classes for new members. Join our in game channel 'weflyrifters' and speak to a recruiter today. |
Marc McIntyre Crendraven
Knights of Vindication
41
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 05:53:00 -
[54] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:I'll echo what was said earlier:
That this was the same character that did this is extremely surprising in and of itself. Contract scamming like this has been going on for a LONG time. You should have seen this with some research.
Also like has been said, you accepted the risk when you paid the collateral. I'm also P sure he's not the only one that shot you since 1 ship can't gank a freighter, so how would you define that?
Basically the contracter attacked in order to give me the log-off timer so I couldn't just disappear after a while, others then came to kill me after a bit, I was being bumped by yet another person so I couldn't align. Eat Lead!!! Err....Antimatter...whatever! |
Marc McIntyre Crendraven
Knights of Vindication
41
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 06:00:00 -
[55] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:Kenrailae wrote:I'll echo what was said earlier:
That this was the same character that did this is extremely surprising in and of itself. Contract scamming like this has been going on for a LONG time. You should have seen this with some research.
Also like has been said, you accepted the risk when you paid the collateral. I'm also P sure he's not the only one that shot you since 1 ship can't gank a freighter, so how would you define that? What he didn't tell us was that the contract was for 1 trit at 2bil collateral from Jita -> Hek thru Rancer.
actually, this post is only about high sec, I don't care about low-sec because there is a lot less law there anyways. and no, it was not for 1 trit, not even close. Eat Lead!!! Err....Antimatter...whatever! |
Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
170
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 06:23:00 -
[56] - Quote
Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:Kenrailae wrote:I'll echo what was said earlier:
That this was the same character that did this is extremely surprising in and of itself. Contract scamming like this has been going on for a LONG time. You should have seen this with some research.
Also like has been said, you accepted the risk when you paid the collateral. I'm also P sure he's not the only one that shot you since 1 ship can't gank a freighter, so how would you define that? Basically the contracter attacked in order to give me the log-off timer so I couldn't just disappear after a while, others then came to kill me after a bit, I was being bumped by yet another person so I couldn't align. If someone other than the contractor had given me that timer this post would not exist as I would simply accept it as another fair loss.
So I don't get why this is an 'unfair' loss cause the guy showed you who and what he was playing at.
Your mistakes, in order:
1. Accepting contracts on your freighter character.
Use an alt, even if it's one of those silly little side slots on your account.
2. Traveling alone.
Freighter ganking is definitely a thing. You may not get ganked today, or tomorrow, but you will.
3. Not scouting your gates.
Basic Low sec Survival is all about scouting your gates. High sec just means we can't sit and camp them all day. Instead we undock and warp only when we have a target.
4. Not bringing friends.
Seems to be a theme this one. High sec players REALLY need to get over this idea that the rules are different just cause we pirates get shot by NPC's. Not just you, bu thread after thread after thread, and we all say the same thing. And we're not lying.
5. Coming here and crying foul.
This scam has been around FOREVER. I am STILL surprised he used the same char. That is just careless. But it goes to show how little attention freighters in particular pay, and why they are so easy and so worth ganking. If they don't pay in isk, they pay in tears, which fuels our lols.
Sorry bud, but this one was on you.
My advice? Buy an Orca, or else another char to web you into warp WELL before the bump can get you, and don't auto pilot to gates.
nb4 'oh webbing doesn't work.'
It does. You can get a freighter/orca off a gate in as short of a time as it takes a rapier to lock which is faster than a stabber can burn out and bump.
Or pay Red Frog to move your stuff and find another isk source, like incursions or missions. The Law is a point of View |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
16654
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 08:30:00 -
[57] - Quote
Still waiting for someone to show me a 'hugh exploit'.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1255
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Posted - 2014.02.07 08:32:00 -
[58] - Quote
Its not an exploit by game mechanics. But the line of tought is reasonable. Cancelling a contract if the owner gank you during its execution seems reasonable and whitin all limits of suspension of disbelief. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
16654
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 08:51:00 -
[59] - Quote
In a game that prides itself on the fact that friends are likely to stab you in the back, it makes perfect sense as it is.
You open yourself up to the loss of any ship by anyone, as soon as you undock. Changing the contract system for the OP in this instance, will not prevent this from happening. People will still seed gank contacts, just as they have since.....forever.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1256
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 10:08:00 -
[60] - Quote
Mag's wrote:In a game that prides itself on the fact that friends are likely to stab you in the back, it makes perfect sense as it is.
You open yourself up to the loss of any ship by anyone, as soon as you undock. Changing the contract system for the OP in this instance, will not prevent this from happening. People will still seed gank contacts, just as they have since.....forever.
Your staementis completely unrelated to the issue. He did not ask for his ship to not be killable. He asked for not needing to payt he collateral for failure when the failure was made by an ambush of the contractor.
That is extremely logical. You open yourself for gankg when you undock. But the guy that made the contract is protected by a magical never fail contract system
The chance to be #@!#!@# shoudl be for BOTH sides. You want to backstab him.. ok.. but do not expect him to pay what he owns you. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
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Mag's
the united SCUM.
16654
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 12:02:00 -
[61] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Mag's wrote:In a game that prides itself on the fact that friends are likely to stab you in the back, it makes perfect sense as it is.
You open yourself up to the loss of any ship by anyone, as soon as you undock. Changing the contract system for the OP in this instance, will not prevent this from happening. People will still seed gank contacts, just as they have since.....forever. Your staementis completely unrelated to the issue. He did not ask for his ship to not be killable. He asked for not needing to payt he collateral for failure when the failure was made by an ambush of the contractor. That is extremely logical. You open yourself for gankg when you undock. But the guy that made the contract is protected by a magical never fail contract system The chance to be #@!#!@# shoudl be for BOTH sides. You want to backstab him.. ok.. but do not expect him to pay what he owns you. It's completely related because as others have pointed out, changing it will make no difference. So expect to be screwed over and use options available to avoid it.
Also I never mentioned that he wanted his ship to be unkillable. My point was that even your friends may choose to kill you and you should expect that when undocking. This time it was the maker of the contract, next time it could be his friends.
Welcome to Eve.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
348
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 12:19:00 -
[62] - Quote
Eve is full of this kind of exploits and alts In this case he used the same char for gank and creating the contract. He could use 2 different alts - and you could not even know that this was a scam. The main rules every one in eve have to remember: 1.Don't fly what you cannot afford 2.Don't carry more in your cargo/fit than value of ships needed to gank you, or for pleasure to have your ship on killboard.
-=Reopening old corporations=- Do you have old and closed corporation and like to reopen it? Like this topic and keep it on the top by posting. |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
16654
|
Posted - 2014.02.07 17:19:00 -
[63] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Eve is full of this kind of exploits and alts In this case he used the same char for gank and creating the contract. He could use 2 different alts - and you could not even know that this was a scam. The main rules every one in eve have to remember: 1.Don't fly what you cannot afford 2.Don't carry more in your cargo/fit than value of ships needed to gank you, or for pleasure to have your ship on killboard.
What exploits?
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Loki Feiht
Feiht Family Clan
164
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 09:47:00 -
[64] - Quote
Marc McIntyre Crendraven wrote:I was recently ganked in Niarja. the thing is I was running a courier contract with a large collateral. The character that issued the contract is the one that attacked me. Now I have never complained about high sec not being safe enough because I like the sandbox element. But common sense says that if I am attacked by my own contracter than the contract should be canceled. I can understand if a different character was used to initiate the gank but this is just ridiculous.
As it currently stands, If I am doing work for a person and they decide to keep me from doing that work I am the one who has to pay for it. I'm sorry but that's a completely broken game mechanic. If you don't want your own contract completed than you should pay the price. The authorities would make you forfeit the contract. However, if it was another character who attacked then the contract issuer could claim innocence.
Nothing else in EVE really works this way, here are some examples.
I join corp, corpies attack me and I lose ISK, guess what, I can leave the corp, yay!!!
I go into low-sec and get killed, guess what, I can leave low-sec, yay!!!
I make contract with guy and give put up tons of collateral to reflect my honesty, he turns around and kills me in high sec, guess what, he gets the collateral given to him for his crime, dafug?!?!? there is no way out like other aspects of EVE.
The collateral is held by the SCC, an NPC corp, why would they give it to the criminal?
I agree, although they could easily attack you with an alt that would require more work on their part.
More NPC - Randomly Generated Modular Content-áthread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=220858 |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
182
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 11:32:00 -
[65] - Quote
I agree that lore and mechanics wise it doesn't make much sense for the guy that gives you the contract and then proceeds to kill you to also take the collateral.
On the other hand though, even if this mechanic is changed then it is very easy to circumvent.
So the real answer to your problem is to always do what is needed to transport cargo safely.
And thus, you learned a valuable lesson.
I am zen. |
Linkxsc162534
Traps 'R' Us Bask of Fail
41
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 17:07:00 -
[66] - Quote
Anomaly One wrote: horrible idea.. one can create multiple alts to down vote his opponents and up-vote himself this is nothing different than the current bounty system completely useless way of measuring someones worth..
Then lets see you come up with a better one. Heck I thought Eve was the game of scams, in the current system theres no way to look at and judge a player's worth. At least with my idea there would be a little bit of a way to judge a players worth.
Zan Shiro wrote:
You also have the issue of players like me are really nice to friends and have broken open sealed packages on free move thier crap runs. This is a failed contract and counts against my freighter alt.
Reason I broke the contract was I'd tell peeps make the package no larger than charon at level 4 size limits. Some could not follow these simple instructions So rather than wait for for them to redo the whole contracting thing (if even online to tell them to do it) I'd break the old one, put thier assembled ships in new personal contracts that fit under level 4 size limits, do the runs needed to move it all and call it done.
Since free there were no collateral games. I go boom we all screwed lol. i am an honest player....all stuff moved and not stolen. This stat would not show that. It would show the opposite in fact.
Well I figure that your friends wouldn't be giving you crap reviews for the jobs you did now would they? |
Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
147
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 20:17:00 -
[67] - Quote
It's like paying a deposit for your apartment only to have your landlord wreck the place and take your deposit.
CCP Logic Standing Services - Free 3rd Party & Collateral Holding - MD Experiment
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Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
2302
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 21:17:00 -
[68] - Quote
I think Agent 47 would agree with the OP entirely. If you're attacked by the exact same person who put up the contract, you should at the very least get a free killright on them, and a full refund on your collateral deposit. Nullsec in a Nutshell: http://nedroid.com/comics/2006-08-24-2155-arrrdino.gif |
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
1008
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 22:05:00 -
[69] - Quote
From a legal point of view the contract will still be valid unless a clause is inserted to nullify the contract if the other party attacks you, as this doesn't yet exist in eve technically he did nothing wrong and you lost your collateral. Try not to be such a soft target in future, plus you can aways undock in a combat ship and get your revenge. You have the absolute freedom to do this at any time, anywhere, exercise your freedom and revel in your power. Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction... |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10178
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 22:29:00 -
[70] - Quote
This is a horrible idea because you're basically asking CCP to code, test and implement a "fix" that wouldn't fix a damn thing because 1) it is trivial to work around, making it absolutely pointless and 2) it's not even a problem to begin with
It won't stop you from seeing bait contracts, It won't make bait contracts rarer, it won't make them any more difficult.
Maybe, just maybe, you could accept your contracts with an alt, make the run at a less predictable time, double wrap so that they can't recognize you by what you're hauling and not autopilot through the <0.7 parts of the route? Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10178
|
Posted - 2014.02.08 22:32:00 -
[71] - Quote
oh and this isn't an "exploit" no matter how loudly you scream that it is Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
Samuel Wess
Stain Police Happy Cartel
54
|
Posted - 2014.02.11 18:46:00 -
[72] - Quote
Highsec is designed so people can grief each other and there are almost no penalties for the griefers or tools for the victims to retaliate with the same time/effort as the attacker.
Walk into the club like "What up? I got a big cockpit!" |
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