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Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 07:43:00 -
[61] - Quote
ElCholo wrote:Sebastian N Cain wrote:Fast ships using projectile weapons... in no way there are similarities... oh, wait. Yet some how.... all the angel ships have more speed and more range than Minmatar.... so yah, let's lump them together so we can say that Minmatar needs to be nerfed. Then obviously Gallente is OP. Seen the Vindi, Vigilant, and Daredevil? Hell, the Vigilant can hit out to 21k with high damage blaster ammo! The Daredevil can put out Cruiser DPS! Nerf Gallente! Idiots like you constantly astound me. Well, those three don-¦t show up in the top 20, so how OP could they be? It just might be possible that they have some serious downsides to their strengths that you forgot to mention?
You know, just because they look good in EFT doesn-¦t mean jack. "You either need less science fiction or more medication."
"Or less medication and more ammo!" |
DarkAegix
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
308
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 08:53:00 -
[62] - Quote
ElCholo wrote:Sebastian N Cain wrote:Fast ships using projectile weapons... in no way there are similarities... oh, wait. Yet some how.... all the derp ships have more herp and more derp than Minmatar.... so yah, let's derp them together so we can say that derp needs to be herped. Then obviously Gallente is derp. Seen the Derpi, Herpilant, and Derpdevil? Derp, the Herpiilant can hit out to 21k with derp damage herp ammo! The Derpdevil can put out Herp DPS! Herp Derp! Idiots like me constantly astound you. What Sebastian N Cain said is true.
Also, most ships in EVE are simply out-classed by the Minmatar version. Rupture vs Moa Wolf vs Retribution Cyclone vs Ferox Sleipnir vs Astarte Maelstrom vs Rokh Thrasher vs Every other destroyer Vagabond vs Deimos
Finally, Vindicator vs Machariel. Ever heard of kiting? Even an armour-fit Machs can MWD faster than a Rupture. |
ElCholo
BURN EDEN Northern Coalition.
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 09:09:00 -
[63] - Quote
DarkAegix wrote:ElCholo wrote:Sebastian N Cain wrote:Fast ships using projectile weapons... in no way there are similarities... oh, wait. Yet some how.... all the derp ships have more herp and more derp than Minmatar.... so yah, let's derp them together so we can say that derp needs to be herped. Then obviously Gallente is derp. Seen the Derpi, Herpilant, and Derpdevil? Derp, the Herpiilant can hit out to 21k with derp damage herp ammo! The Derpdevil can put out Herp DPS! Herp Derp! Idiots like me constantly astound you. What Sebastian N Cain said is true. Also, most ships in EVE are simply out-classed by the Minmatar version. Rupture vs Moa Wolf vs Retribution Cyclone vs Ferox Sleipnir vs Astarte Maelstrom vs Rokh Thrasher vs Every other destroyer Vagabond vs Deimos Finally, Vindicator vs Machariel. Ever heard of kiting? Even an armour-fit Machs can MWD faster than a Rupture.
I see wut yoo did thar.
And only a carebear, eftwhore, or complete tard wouldn't. |
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 10:36:00 -
[64] - Quote
ElCholo wrote:DarkAegix wrote:ElCholo wrote:Sebastian N Cain wrote:Fast ships using projectile weapons... in no way there are similarities... oh, wait. Yet some how.... all the derp ships have more herp and more derp than Minmatar.... so yah, let's derp them together so we can say that derp needs to be herped. Then obviously Gallente is derp. Seen the Derpi, Herpilant, and Derpdevil? Derp, the Herpiilant can hit out to 21k with derp damage herp ammo! The Derpdevil can put out Herp DPS! Herp Derp! Idiots like me constantly astound you. What Sebastian N Cain said is true. Also, most ships in EVE are simply out-classed by the Minmatar version. Rupture vs Moa Wolf vs Retribution Cyclone vs Ferox Sleipnir vs Astarte Maelstrom vs Rokh Thrasher vs Every other destroyer Vagabond vs Deimos Finally, Vindicator vs Machariel. Ever heard of kiting? Even an armour-fit Machs can MWD faster than a Rupture. I see wut yoo did thar. And only a carebear, eftwhore, or complete tard wouldn't. Even if he brought up more competitive examples than Rokh and Ferox you can hardly deny that the Minmatar belongs to the best anywhere in the subcap area. There might be some ships equally good as their Minmatar counterpart but hardly any better (Tengu or Apoc maybe... but you really have to look hard to find those very very few examples).
The main problem with the Minmatar is their flexibility. It-¦s fine to have a generalist race that is competitive everywhere, but it must not be outstanding anywhere as well or else it becomes OP. If you want outstanding performance anywhere, the race has to be their competitiveness restricted to those areas. "You either need less science fiction or more medication."
"Or less medication and more ammo!" |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
93
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 11:04:00 -
[65] - Quote
Sebastian N Cain wrote:Even if he brought up more competitive examples than Rokh and Ferox you can hardly deny that the Minmatar belongs to the best anywhere in the subcap area. There might be some ships equally good as their Minmatar counterpart but hardly any better (Tengu or Apoc maybe... but you really have to look hard to find those very very few examples).
The main problem with the Minmatar is their flexibility. It-¦s fine to have a generalist race that is competitive everywhere, but it must not be outstanding anywhere as well or else it becomes OP. If you want outstanding performance anywhere, the race has to be their competitiveness restricted to those areas.
Merlin is on-par with the Rifter. Hookbill is better than a Firetail. Zealot is a better armor HAC than a Muninn (by far). Drakes are better than Canes. Tengus better than Lokis. Scorpion more useful than the Phoon. Abaddon is superior to the Maelstrom.
Nidhoggurs? lol Hels? lol Naglfar, at least, on-par with other dreads. |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
37
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 11:51:00 -
[66] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:Sebastian N Cain wrote:Even if he brought up more competitive examples than Rokh and Ferox you can hardly deny that the Minmatar belongs to the best anywhere in the subcap area. There might be some ships equally good as their Minmatar counterpart but hardly any better (Tengu or Apoc maybe... but you really have to look hard to find those very very few examples).
The main problem with the Minmatar is their flexibility. It-¦s fine to have a generalist race that is competitive everywhere, but it must not be outstanding anywhere as well or else it becomes OP. If you want outstanding performance anywhere, the race has to be their competitiveness restricted to those areas. Merlin is on-par with the Rifter. Hookbill is better than a Firetail. Zealot is a better armor HAC than a Muninn (by far). Drakes are better than Canes. Tengus better than Lokis. Scorpion more useful than the Phoon. Abaddon is superior to the Maelstrom. Nidhoggurs? lol Hels? lol Naglfar, at least, on-par with other dreads.
omg ... noobmatar .... merlin is onpar with the rifter???? loooooool , maybe in your dreams noobi hookbill is better than a firetail... zealot is better armor hac than a muninn , oh no an armor hac is better than a skirmish hac in armor tank fit drakes are better than canes... no not rly different yes , better no tengus better than lokis , one ship which outclass matar , this cant be happening scorp vs phoon.... pff just pff ,compare them is so stupid only a matar pilot could come up with that abaddon vs mael , oh yeah heavy tanked armor resist bonused ship is better than a shield boost bonused ship, yep shield boost bonus sux for fleet pvp
nidhoggurs ?? is fine , consider shield capital vs armor capital unbalance naglfar is fine,still better than the caldari dread for sure
|
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
56
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 12:23:00 -
[67] - Quote
Sebastian N Cain wrote:ElCholo wrote:DarkAegix wrote:ElCholo wrote:Sebastian N Cain wrote:Fast ships using projectile weapons... in no way there are similarities... oh, wait. Yet some how.... all the derp ships have more herp and more derp than Minmatar.... so yah, let's derp them together so we can say that derp needs to be herped. Then obviously Gallente is derp. Seen the Derpi, Herpilant, and Derpdevil? Derp, the Herpiilant can hit out to 21k with derp damage herp ammo! The Derpdevil can put out Herp DPS! Herp Derp! Idiots like me constantly astound you. What Sebastian N Cain said is true. Also, most ships in EVE are simply out-classed by the Minmatar version. Rupture vs Moa Wolf vs Retribution Cyclone vs Ferox Sleipnir vs Astarte Maelstrom vs Rokh Thrasher vs Every other destroyer Vagabond vs Deimos Finally, Vindicator vs Machariel. Ever heard of kiting? Even an armour-fit Machs can MWD faster than a Rupture. I see wut yoo did thar. And only a carebear, eftwhore, or complete tard wouldn't. Even if he brought up more competitive examples than Rokh and Ferox you can hardly deny that the Minmatar belongs to the best anywhere in the subcap area. There might be some ships equally good as their Minmatar counterpart but hardly any better (Tengu or Apoc maybe... but you really have to look hard to find those very very few examples). The main problem with the Minmatar is their flexibility. It-¦s fine to have a generalist race that is competitive everywhere, but it must not be outstanding anywhere as well or else it becomes OP. If you want outstanding performance anywhere, the race has to be their competitiveness restricted to those areas.
Oh this sounds like what i was saying. . .
its an easy fix - Mini get their dps cut, keep their kiting range, speed, versatility and arti alpha (which is super cool feature btw - the radically different nature of AC/Arti. . .). And believe me, it will still be a great fight. It will take a little more skill and a lot more time to kill your enemy, but he still can't catch you or track you or both.
I know a lot of people disagree with this, but its really quite obvious in the game how big it is.
And don't compare ship examples - like Sebastian said - it will take effort to find the exceptions. |
Phill C
Broham and Associates GmbH
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 12:45:00 -
[68] - Quote
Ruah Piskonit wrote: Oh this sounds like what i was saying. . .
its an easy fix - Mini get their dps cut, keep their kiting range, speed, versatility and arti alpha (which is super cool feature btw - the radically different nature of AC/Arti. . .). And believe me, it will still be a great fight. It will take a little more skill and a lot more time to kill your enemy, but he still can't catch you or track you or both.
I know a lot of people disagree with this, but its really quite obvious in the game how big it is.
And don't compare ship examples - like Sebastian said - it will take effort to find the exceptions.
F U, Also its mostly CCP's fault for nerfing the crap out of speed back in the day. before the nano Nerf it wasn't like this. Minmatar guns are ON PAR with all other racial guns. For the most part blasters cant do thier job to be viable (its an issue with thier ships being SLOW or sumthing idk... ) BUT I THINK THATS GETTING FIXED READ A DEVBLOG YOU UNSAVORY NUCKLE HEADS.
so.. can we call this a end to yet another "PLEASE NERF THAT IT MAKES ME CRY AT NIGHT" thread
|
m0cking bird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 13:27:00 -
[69] - Quote
Since there is a Amarr conspiracy trying to destroy Minmatar. I think it only fitting I point it out. These hating c0unt focks are always trying to keep the MInmatar down. With so many Minmatar slaves! You'd think these pricks would be happy. NERF AMARR! They're to golden and Scorch is to purple. NERF WINAMARR (see what i did there). |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
37
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 13:31:00 -
[70] - Quote
Phill C wrote:Ruah Piskonit wrote: Oh this sounds like what i was saying. . .
its an easy fix - Mini get their dps cut, keep their kiting range, speed, versatility and arti alpha (which is super cool feature btw - the radically different nature of AC/Arti. . .). And believe me, it will still be a great fight. It will take a little more skill and a lot more time to kill your enemy, but he still can't catch you or track you or both.
I know a lot of people disagree with this, but its really quite obvious in the game how big it is.
And don't compare ship examples - like Sebastian said - it will take effort to find the exceptions.
F U, Also its mostly CCP's fault for nerfing the crap out of speed back in the day. before the nano Nerf it wasn't like this. Minmatar guns are ON PAR with all other racial guns. For the most part blasters cant do thier job to be viable (its an issue with thier ships being SLOW or sumthing idk... ) BUT I THINK THATS GETTING FIXED READ A DEVBLOG YOU UNSAVORY NUCKLE HEADS. so.. can we call this a end to yet another "PLEASE NERF THAT IT MAKES ME CRY AT NIGHT" thread
weapons maybe balanced but the hulls arent , matar hulls are way too good , nerf them ,nerf them hard
|
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Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
136
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 13:34:00 -
[71] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:Phill C wrote:Ruah Piskonit wrote: Oh this sounds like what i was saying. . .
its an easy fix - Mini get their dps cut, keep their kiting range, speed, versatility and arti alpha (which is super cool feature btw - the radically different nature of AC/Arti. . .). And believe me, it will still be a great fight. It will take a little more skill and a lot more time to kill your enemy, but he still can't catch you or track you or both.
I know a lot of people disagree with this, but its really quite obvious in the game how big it is.
And don't compare ship examples - like Sebastian said - it will take effort to find the exceptions.
F U, Also its mostly CCP's fault for nerfing the crap out of speed back in the day. before the nano Nerf it wasn't like this. Minmatar guns are ON PAR with all other racial guns. For the most part blasters cant do thier job to be viable (its an issue with thier ships being SLOW or sumthing idk... ) BUT I THINK THATS GETTING FIXED READ A DEVBLOG YOU UNSAVORY NUCKLE HEADS. so.. can we call this a end to yet another "PLEASE NERF THAT IT MAKES ME CRY AT NIGHT" thread weapons maybe balanced but the hulls arent , matar hulls are way too good , nerf them ,nerf them hard
2 nerfs to matari hulls:
1 - axe falloff bonuses by half 2 - make blaster ships faster [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Byteflux
Southern Cross Incorporated Flying Dangerous
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 14:09:00 -
[72] - Quote
Nerf whining slavers |
Nimrod Nemesis
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
66
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 18:18:00 -
[73] - Quote
Grimpak wrote: 2 possible nerfs to matari hulls:
1 - axe falloff bonuses by half 2 - make blaster ships faster
do both and balance is achieved.
Get ready to be gored by the minmatar balance-police. |
Cambarus
Clearly Compensating
27
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 18:35:00 -
[74] - Quote
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:Grimpak wrote: 2 possible nerfs to matari hulls:
1 - axe falloff bonuses by half 2 - make blaster ships faster
do both and balance is achieved.
Get ready to be gored by the minmatar balance-police. TBH 2 shouldn't be needed if the blaster buffs prove effective, and 1 is one of the few nerf ideas that actually makes sense. The 10% falloff bonus is a remnant of the days before TEs gave 30% falloff, and it's perfectly valid to claim it needs nerfing. |
Nimrod Nemesis
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
66
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 18:47:00 -
[75] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:Nimrod Nemesis wrote:Grimpak wrote: 2 possible nerfs to matari hulls:
1 - axe falloff bonuses by half 2 - make blaster ships faster
do both and balance is achieved.
Get ready to be gored by the minmatar balance-police. TBH 2 shouldn't be needed if the blaster buffs prove effective, and 1 is one of the few nerf ideas that actually makes sense. The 10% falloff bonus is a remnant of the days before TEs gave 30% falloff, and it's perfectly valid to claim it needs nerfing.
I wasn't attempting to say which, if either, were needed. Just noting that anyone willing to say more than "herp, hybrids need to better." Tends to get crucified by the obvious minmatar fanbois. Both posts sound reasonable, so they probably won't last long. |
Phill C
Broham and Associates GmbH
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 19:01:00 -
[76] - Quote
they are already buffing BLOATS(see what I did there)
on sisi i watched a catalyst rip a t2 cruiser hull in half? yea flown by someone who know how to use it.
with the new blaster and blaster boat buffs they may stand up well to other pvp ships.
i think its stupid to try and nerf one part of a game to make another more reliant. sense they are already buffing blaster boat hulls blasters and blaster ammo. i think they will be fixed.
as for minmatar ships being in the top 20 on the eve kill board. suck it.. OR put the stats here for everyone to see and comment on. and a link to your source so we can verify what it says... if your going to pull that crap into here back up your story so i can rip it in half. |
Phill C
Broham and Associates GmbH
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 19:03:00 -
[77] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:Phill C wrote:Ruah Piskonit wrote: Oh this sounds like what i was saying. . .
its an easy fix - Mini get their dps cut, keep their kiting range, speed, versatility and arti alpha (which is super cool feature btw - the radically different nature of AC/Arti. . .). And believe me, it will still be a great fight. It will take a little more skill and a lot more time to kill your enemy, but he still can't catch you or track you or both.
I know a lot of people disagree with this, but its really quite obvious in the game how big it is.
And don't compare ship examples - like Sebastian said - it will take effort to find the exceptions.
F U, Also its mostly CCP's fault for nerfing the crap out of speed back in the day. before the nano Nerf it wasn't like this. Minmatar guns are ON PAR with all other racial guns. For the most part blasters cant do thier job to be viable (its an issue with thier ships being SLOW or sumthing idk... ) BUT I THINK THATS GETTING FIXED READ A DEVBLOG YOU UNSAVORY NUCKLE HEADS. so.. can we call this a end to yet another "PLEASE NERF THAT IT MAKES ME CRY AT NIGHT" thread weapons maybe balanced but the hulls arent , matar hulls are way too good , nerf them ,nerf them hard
nice trollololololol |
Nimrod Nemesis
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
66
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 19:05:00 -
[78] - Quote
Phill C wrote:on sisi i watched a catalyst rip a t2 cruiser hull in half
as for minmatar ships being in the top 20 on the eve kill board. suck it..
Flawless logical argument. You totally demolished them Phil. |
Phill C
Broham and Associates GmbH
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 19:16:00 -
[79] - Quote
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:Phill C wrote:on sisi i watched a catalyst rip a t2 cruiser hull in half
as for minmatar ships being in the top 20 on the eve kill board. suck it.. Flawless logical argument. You totally demolished them Phil.
you must be a liberal... that looks like their kind of tactic.. ya know take it out of context try and twist the meaning.
my point.. Galente Buffs are coming. (alote of people are trying to compare blaster boats to min (idk why) They will have an affect yet undertermend but IT does look promising.
my second point. is that his reference to eve kill is useless with out frame of reference.
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Nimrod Nemesis
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
66
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 19:31:00 -
[80] - Quote
Phill C wrote: you must be a liberal... that looks like their kind of tactic.. ya know take it out of context try and twist the meaning.
What exactly was the context? I think the original meaning was preserved rather well.
Phill C wrote: my point.. Galente Buffs are coming. (alote of people are trying to compare blaster boats to min (idk why) They will have an affect yet undertermend but IT does look promising.
I guess i'll just take your word for it then! Looks promising? I've been on sisi and it didn't look particularly promising there just yet. I assume CCP is still rolling around ideas for how to get hybrids up to par. They've released incremental and small changes thus far and none of them have really changed the paradigm, just made fitting hybrid ships less of a chore to fit and raised their damage and tracking from utterly laughable to a little less laughable given their other drawbacks.
Phill C wrote: my second point. is that his reference to eve kill is useless with out frame of reference.
You did a magnificent job of conveying that message. I don't know how anyone could mis-contrue your fine-tuned prose as belligerent trolling. |
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Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra Gallente Federation
20
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 19:42:00 -
[81] - Quote
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:Phill C wrote: you must be a liberal... that looks like their kind of tactic.. ya know take it out of context try and twist the meaning.
What exactly was the context? I think the original meaning was preserved rather well. Phill C wrote: my point.. Galente Buffs are coming. (alote of people are trying to compare blaster boats to min (idk why) They will have an affect yet undertermend but IT does look promising.
I guess i'll just take your word for it then! Looks promising? I've been on sisi and it didn't look particularly promising there just yet. I assume CCP is still rolling around ideas for how to get hybrids up to par. They've released incremental and small changes thus far and none of them have really changed the paradigm, just made fitting hybrid ships less of a chore to fit and raised their damage and tracking from utterly laughable to a little less laughable given their other drawbacks. Phill C wrote: my second point. is that his reference to eve kill is useless with out frame of reference.
You did a magnificent job of conveying that message. I don't know how anyone could mis-contrue your fine-tuned prose as belligerent trolling. To be fair, he has a point. This point:
He is absolutely correct when he says that he has no clue what he is talking about. "You either need less science fiction or more medication."
"Or less medication and more ammo!" |
Phill C
Broham and Associates GmbH
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 20:00:00 -
[82] - Quote
fail troll is fail.
the real question here is what are you expecting out of blaster boats? as its already been proven by previous posters in this thread that the guns are on par.
you dont want to hear anything other than a scheme by witch to nerf ether min or amarr (you maid that clear) but that is just bad game design you dont nerf bat crap just cause its counter part is unfavored. thats why galente is crap now. because of 2 nerfs that hit it where it hurts the most... ill let you guess what those are. Nimrod.
Nerfs break game content.
Jacob Holland wrote:ElCholo wrote:Largest in Class:
800mm Repeating Artillery II______Neutron Blaster Cannon II Duration------------------7.85________Duration---------------7.85 Optimal-----------------4,800________Optimal---------------7,200 Falloff------------------19,200________Falloff---------------10,000 Damage Mod----------3.234________Damage Mod----------4.2 Tracking---------------0.0432________Tracking------------0.0433 Signature-----------------400________Signature---------------400
{Snip} This looks to me that they both have the same duration. The optimal of the of the Blasters is almost double which means that while still in optimal the blaster is doing full damage and the AC is having to fight in falloff which means significantly reduce damage. The Blaster has nearly double optimal and the AC has nearly double Falloff. People seems to keep forgetting that even though the DPS may be similar, that the ACs are fighting in falloff which means you can probably cut that actuall DPS in half. The damage mod on the blasters is greater than that on the ACs. Tracking is just a TAD bit better on the ACs which will be getting even better on them in the expansion. Sig is the same. {Snip} Unmodified by skills the ACs need to use approximately 12.5% of their available falloff to hit a target at the edge of Blaster Optimal. The significant reduction in damage you refer to is approximately 1% That's right, one whole percent. Now admittedly, all other factors being equal that one percent will mean that the AC equipped ship would die before the Blaster fit ship... But the difference is minimal. Out at Scram range the Blasters are using approximately 18% of their falloff and losing approximately 4% of their damage while the ACs are using 21%... And losing about 4% of their performance... The significant differences between fighting in Blaster optimal and fighting in Falloff are often overplayed. Even at half falloff the loss of DPS is actually less than 20%. The improvements I've seen to hybrids so far seem rather lacklustre, though I am well aware that the knife edge of EVE combat is often upset by tiny percentages and it's essential that the hybrid rebalance is approached carefully for that reason.
most sense maid in here yet combo power elcholo and Jacob. you stated that the changes to hybrids have been small and haven't added up... erm i think its all starting to add up... CCP makes games for a living.. you beg your mom for change.. But both you and CCP know what you are doing.. they know games and you know TOLLING FORUM THREADS.
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Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra Gallente Federation
20
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Posted - 2011.11.14 20:28:00 -
[83] - Quote
Phill C wrote:fail troll is fail. the real question here is what are you expecting out of blaster boats? as its already been proven by previous posters in this thread that the guns are on par. you dont want to hear anything other than a scheme by witch to nerf ether min or amarr (you maid that clear) but that is just bad game design you dont nerf bat crap just cause its counter part is unfavored. thats why galente is crap now. because of 2 nerfs that hit it where it hurts the most... ill let you guess what those are. Nimrod. Nerfs break game content. Jacob Holland wrote:ElCholo wrote:Largest in Class:
800mm Repeating Artillery II______Neutron Blaster Cannon II Duration------------------7.85________Duration---------------7.85 Optimal-----------------4,800________Optimal---------------7,200 Falloff------------------19,200________Falloff---------------10,000 Damage Mod----------3.234________Damage Mod----------4.2 Tracking---------------0.0432________Tracking------------0.0433 Signature-----------------400________Signature---------------400
{Snip} This looks to me that they both have the same duration. The optimal of the of the Blasters is almost double which means that while still in optimal the blaster is doing full damage and the AC is having to fight in falloff which means significantly reduce damage. The Blaster has nearly double optimal and the AC has nearly double Falloff. People seems to keep forgetting that even though the DPS may be similar, that the ACs are fighting in falloff which means you can probably cut that actuall DPS in half. The damage mod on the blasters is greater than that on the ACs. Tracking is just a TAD bit better on the ACs which will be getting even better on them in the expansion. Sig is the same. {Snip} Unmodified by skills the ACs need to use approximately 12.5% of their available falloff to hit a target at the edge of Blaster Optimal. The significant reduction in damage you refer to is approximately 1% That's right, one whole percent. Now admittedly, all other factors being equal that one percent will mean that the AC equipped ship would die before the Blaster fit ship... But the difference is minimal. Out at Scram range the Blasters are using approximately 18% of their falloff and losing approximately 4% of their damage while the ACs are using 21%... And losing about 4% of their performance... The significant differences between fighting in Blaster optimal and fighting in Falloff are often overplayed. Even at half falloff the loss of DPS is actually less than 20%. The improvements I've seen to hybrids so far seem rather lacklustre, though I am well aware that the knife edge of EVE combat is often upset by tiny percentages and it's essential that the hybrid rebalance is approached carefully for that reason. most sense maid in here yet combo power elcholo and Jacob. you stated that the changes to hybrids have been small and haven't added up... erm i think its all starting to add up... CCP makes games for a living.. you beg your mom for change.. But both you and CCP know what you are doing.. they know games and you know TOLLING FORUM THREADS. It-¦s not proven that the guns are on par, it-¦s proven that there are some leet EFT-warriors talking about things they have no idea about. Learn PVP and then we can talk, until then don-¦t be too sad when the adults don-¦t take you seriously.
And with PVP i am not talking about: "i have ganked lone indys in gatecamps, and because i-¦m not accidentally myself i-¦m so awesome." or "the FC tells me what ship, which skills, which fitting, where to fly, when and who to shoot and because i can do obey without screwing up i-¦m so awesome." "You either need less science fiction or more medication."
"Or less medication and more ammo!" |
Onictus
Legendary Knights Vorpal's Edge
26
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 22:27:00 -
[84] - Quote
Phill C wrote:Nimrod Nemesis wrote:Phill C wrote:on sisi i watched a catalyst rip a t2 cruiser hull in half
as for minmatar ships being in the top 20 on the eve kill board. suck it.. Flawless logical argument. You totally demolished them Phil. you must be a liberal... that looks like their kind of tactic.. ya know take it out of context try and twist the meaning. my point.. Galente Buffs are coming. (alote of people are trying to compare blaster boats to min (idk why) They will have an affect yet undertermend but IT does look promising. my second point. is that his reference to eve kill is useless with out frame of reference.
I fail to see why comparing Gallente to Matar is hard. They are both supposed to be scirmishing brawlers, a a roll wone excels at and the other ...well it doesn't.
I'd be surprised if the buff go far enough. Blaster damage projection is still terrible, and the if the ships use their bonuses they are still going to be to slow due to the speed penalties of armor rigs.
They are talking 20% (which helps larges immesely) fittings which is also pretty huge, and cap somsumption (yay no more capping out a hype with the guns overloaded and a couple hardeners on)
All good things.
Root of the issue remains that unless you shield fit which means only Myrm and Domi gets a cap booster, they are still going to be to slow for their bonuses which doesn't jive with the lack of damage projection
Battlecriusers with still be scarce because you still can't roll primary to primary unless your fleet is 10km apart (because that always happens) so you are still going to be last to arrive on EVERY target so the amount of damage that you are going to do is still going to be inferior to the guy with the cane/harbi/AC myrm that essentially has to click in the general direction and fire on the guns.
The only way I can think of to make Gallente at all desirable is to crank the base speeds about 15% to make up for shield rigging penalties and either knock down Matari falloff or crank the hell out of blaster damage, and I mean 20-25%.
This way you have the option of shield fitting loosing any form of cap protection, being screaming fast, with a crap tank and big damage. Or fitting for balance possibly even active and being able to tank (somewhat) at the expense of speed and DPS.
As it stands you can expect to do 30%-40% of paper DPS due to travel time and falloff losses, made worse by the native armor tanks that don't allow 5 damage mods, and comparatively poor damage project related to both hull speed and weapon system.
Rails would at least be effective IF they could track worth a damn, and if you add enough modules to get the tracking into a reasonable range, the buff they are getting still only amounts so 2/5s of a single magstab, you run out of slots, so damage is distinctly sub-par. |
Desudes
Federal Defence Union Gallente Federation
24
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Posted - 2011.11.15 01:05:00 -
[85] - Quote
This reminds me of frost mage vs ms warrior discussions back in '05 or so, just with more math and less video representation. Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu? |
m0cking bird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
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Posted - 2011.11.15 01:28:00 -
[86] - Quote
Having only used irregular warfare (Guerilla warfare (solo and small gang pvp)) and primarily with Minmatar. I can tell you that Gallente do not skirmish (atleast well). They do preform raiding (Vikings) tactics well. They come in, cause as much damage as possible and get out (getting out is somewhat difficult above frigates). The most common form of engagement in eve is conventional warfare. Amarr excell @ this and to a lesser extent Caldari (although Caldari can also skirmish). Most armour ships in this game are built for conventional warfare or atleast have filled that role, because they're not able to fill any other. Minmatar (Muslim/east asian) best represent skirmishing, but Amarr are also as capable. If there was no Minmatar for this role then Amarr would fill it (Amarr are the second best skirmishing race in-game). javascript:__doPostBack('forum$ctl00$PostReply','') So, there are infarct only 2 races that for years have filled the main types of warfare in pvp. Amarr and Minmatar. Gallente only do raiding well on the frigate level, because of low hit points and high damage output. So any primes that Gallente skirmish is false (or skirmish well or are suppose to).
(I'm going to stop using "small gang" because every loser in game believe they do now. Skirmishing, raiding and general guerilla tactics is what I do.) |
ElCholo
BURN EDEN Northern Coalition.
6
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Posted - 2011.11.15 01:47:00 -
[87] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:Naomi Knight wrote:Phill C wrote:Ruah Piskonit wrote: Oh this sounds like what i was saying. . .
its an easy fix - Mini get their dps cut, keep their kiting range, speed, versatility and arti alpha (which is super cool feature btw - the radically different nature of AC/Arti. . .). And believe me, it will still be a great fight. It will take a little more skill and a lot more time to kill your enemy, but he still can't catch you or track you or both.
I know a lot of people disagree with this, but its really quite obvious in the game how big it is.
And don't compare ship examples - like Sebastian said - it will take effort to find the exceptions.
F U, Also its mostly CCP's fault for nerfing the crap out of speed back in the day. before the nano Nerf it wasn't like this. Minmatar guns are ON PAR with all other racial guns. For the most part blasters cant do thier job to be viable (its an issue with thier ships being SLOW or sumthing idk... ) BUT I THINK THATS GETTING FIXED READ A DEVBLOG YOU UNSAVORY NUCKLE HEADS. so.. can we call this a end to yet another "PLEASE NERF THAT IT MAKES ME CRY AT NIGHT" thread weapons maybe balanced but the hulls arent , matar hulls are way too good , nerf them ,nerf them hard 2 possible nerfs to matari hulls: 1 - axe falloff bonuses by half 2 - make blaster ships faster do both and balance is achieved.
So, return Minmatar back to the point where nobody played them... and everyone laughed at them in pvp. That's a great idea.
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ElCholo
BURN EDEN Northern Coalition.
6
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Posted - 2011.11.15 01:53:00 -
[88] - Quote
Sebastian N Cain wrote: It-¦s not proven that the guns are on par, it-¦s proven that there are some leet EFT-warriors talking about things they have no idea about. Learn PVP and then we can talk, until then don-¦t be too sad when the adults don-¦t take you seriously.
And with PVP i am not talking about: "i have ganked lone indys in gatecamps, and because i-¦m not accidentally myself i-¦m so awesome." or "the FC tells me what ship, which skills, which fitting, where to fly, when and who to shoot and because i can do obey without screwing up i-¦m so awesome."
Come back when you have a combat record on any killboard or post with a main and quit hiding like a chicken **** behind an alt. Until then, anything you say is trollololol. |
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
57
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Posted - 2011.11.15 02:58:00 -
[89] - Quote
Grimpak wrote: 2 possible nerfs to matari hulls:
1 - axe falloff bonuses by half 2 - make blaster ships faster
do both and balance is achieved.
possibly add -
TE reduction to 15% falloff dps nurf of 3%
blaster ships should not be the fastest - they should have the best agility.
But I agree.
ElCholo wrote:So, return Minmatar back to the point where nobody played them... and everyone laughed at them in pvp. That's a great idea.
I played them. . .and rather well too. It was harder - but I always had combat options to run or fight.
you prefer the current situation where everyone plays mini? |
A'Brantox Foson
SKEET ELITE
3
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Posted - 2011.11.15 04:20:00 -
[90] - Quote
minmatar is fine, validity given to this argument is not. |
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