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Justin Cody
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
91
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Posted - 2014.02.13 17:10:00 -
[1] - Quote
In W/J-Space we don't have local as intel unless you actively participate in that system. We like this and don't understand why the rest of null sec gets free intel.
Proposal: CONCORD like the rest of the empires are losing influence and power to a degree as we post/trans-human capsuleers assume greater and greater responsibilities and powers.
CONCORD should cease providing local channel monitoring services for free.
- New Sov related POS module (1 per system similar to a cyno jammer in hp and also being outside the shields) would enable instant and constant local traffic monitoring. This would be allowed at strategic level 2
- The rest of null would have a local like W-space
- NPC null would be instant but only in those systems where the NPCs hold sov (here's looking at you Fountain Core).
Low Sec would be a delayed response...say to coincide with a standard decloak timer of 30 secs and no change would be made to high sec where CONCORD would still exercise its ruthless authority.
What this achieves:
- Group efforts for mining and other isk making activities becomes more encouraged
- ISBoxers put at disadvantage (because screw your free intel thats why)
- Staying aligned is no longer enough of a tactic for people who only NPC
- Acts as additional sink or resource sov entities have to put forward to secure ratting areas
- Allows meta-gamer spies to sabotage NPCing areas
- Creates pockets of uncertainty that everyone can exploit for more destructo-goodness fun
- Small gangs could disable the intel mechanism in system and deny safety to unprepared denizens.
- Brings back ninja ratting as a thing
/flame away guys |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1715
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Posted - 2014.02.13 17:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
this definitely has never been suggested before.
Why would npc nullsec get instant local while local gets delayed response? that doesn't make sense.
No major changes to local should happen without a proper overhaul of dscan, integrating it with the sensor overlay and taking away the requirement to constantly click. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
535
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Posted - 2014.02.13 17:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
+1, Except the Local IFF module should be attached to gates rather than POSes, so it can be attacked. This also makes sense since the gate activation is presumably what triggers the appearance in local.
It's also actually useful for defenders, because it does not give away intel to attackers - something that us W-space pilots also like and often use to our advantage.
You'd also have to remove jump metrics from the map when the local IFF modules are not in place.
Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1715
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Posted - 2014.02.13 17:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:You'd also have to remove jump metrics from the map when the local IFF modules are not in place
Why would that be necessary? "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Justin Cody
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
93
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Posted - 2014.02.13 18:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
Batelle wrote:this definitely has never been suggested before.
Why would npc nullsec get instant local while local gets delayed response? that doesn't make sense.
No major changes to local should happen without a proper overhaul of dscan, integrating it with the sensor overlay and taking away the requirement to constantly click.
npc null would get instant local due to npc sov as this is a sov based mechanic.
as to the rest of your statement...you should have to click, but they could have the scan cycle a few times before you need to reclick (10 second cycle) so spamming isn't needed. But in no way should you just get intel for having the window open. The sensor overlay is for sites and anoms that have a special beacon that is broadcasting. This system has already been overhauled and while iteration should occur there is no reason to say no to changes without jesus overhaul.
#dealwithit |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
537
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Posted - 2014.02.13 18:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:You'd also have to remove jump metrics from the map when the local IFF modules are not in place
Why would that be necessary?
Because the issue is free intel. Jump metrics on the map are intel that we use when selecting null sec systems to harass. The lack of this information in w-space is one of the things that makes W-space much more engaging, at least to me.
There is another piece of intel available on the map and via API that we use, which is the number of NPC kills. This is available for w-space which is why you don't see that many PVE guys in w-space these days.
Here's how:
We scan down a chain of WHs and collect the J-numbers. Then we sit nice and safe in a POS casually glancing at wormnav or similar now and again. When we see NPC kills rising in a w-space system we know someone is in there in a nice expensive ship killing rats.
Then we mobilise a small fleet and return with some loot and a few corpses.
Such as this: http://www.toha-conglomerate.org/killboard/index.php/kill_related/6296/
These guys were unusual in that they didn't drop faction modules, but they did kindly leave us 400m in sleeper loot. Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1723
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Posted - 2014.02.13 18:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:Batelle wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:You'd also have to remove jump metrics from the map when the local IFF modules are not in place
Why would that be necessary? Because the issue is free intel. Jump metrics on the map are intel that we use when selecting null sec systems to harass. The lack of this information in w-space is one of the things that makes W-space much more engaging, at least to me. There is another piece of intel available on the map and via API that we use, which is the number of NPC kills. This is available for w-space which is why you don't see that many PVE guys in w-space these days. Here's how: We scan down a chain of WHs and collect the J-numbers. Then we sit nice and safe in a POS casually glancing at wormnav or similar now and again. When we see NPC kills rising in a w-space system we know someone is in there in a nice expensive ship killing rats. Then we mobilise a small fleet and return with some loot and a few corpses. Such as this: http://www.toha-conglomerate.org/killboard/index.php/kill_related/6296/These guys were unusual in that they didn't drop faction modules, but they did kindly leave us 400m in sleeper loot.
That's great for you, but so what? Eliminating one form of free intel is not a reason to eliminate another, entirely separate form of intel used for a completely different purpose. Jumps per hour/24 hours is sufficiently broad and anonymous that I don't see any connection to this topic about local, aside from the overly broad concept that all free intel is bad, which is a stretch at best.
Scanning down a long chain and then just waiting for dotlan to light up is pretty devious, however. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Hra Neuvosto
FinFleet Northern Coalition.
246
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Posted - 2014.02.13 18:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
Remove d-scan, local and all jump information from the map. |
Mario Putzo
Welping and Dunking.
274
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Posted - 2014.02.13 19:19:00 -
[9] - Quote
I know they could make a deployable that blocks local chat! Because deployables are fun emergent gameplay. |
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
541
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Posted - 2014.02.13 19:45:00 -
[10] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:Batelle wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:You'd also have to remove jump metrics from the map when the local IFF modules are not in place
Why would that be necessary? Because the issue is free intel. Jump metrics on the map are intel that we use when selecting null sec systems to harass. The lack of this information in w-space is one of the things that makes W-space much more engaging, at least to me. There is another piece of intel available on the map and via API that we use, which is the number of NPC kills. This is available for w-space which is why you don't see that many PVE guys in w-space these days. Here's how: We scan down a chain of WHs and collect the J-numbers. Then we sit nice and safe in a POS casually glancing at wormnav or similar now and again. When we see NPC kills rising in a w-space system we know someone is in there in a nice expensive ship killing rats. Then we mobilise a small fleet and return with some loot and a few corpses. Such as this: http://www.toha-conglomerate.org/killboard/index.php/kill_related/6296/These guys were unusual in that they didn't drop faction modules, but they did kindly leave us 400m in sleeper loot. That's great for you, but so what? Eliminating one form of free intel is not a reason to eliminate another, entirely separate form of intel used for a completely different purpose. Jumps per hour/24 hours is sufficiently broad and anonymous that I don't see any connection to this topic about local, aside from the overly broad concept that all free intel is bad, which is a stretch at best. Scanning down a long chain and then just waiting for dotlan to light up is pretty devious, however.
Wormholes used to emit jumps per hour information, but CCP stopped it a few years ago. I imagine precisely because the intel was so useful to hunters and a complete liability to the hunted. Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
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Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1729
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Posted - 2014.02.13 19:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
I can imagine that being the case for whs, where a single jump could be significant, or allow you to identify the chain someone is using to transport stuff. But in no way do i see that being the case with a local-restricted k-space. I just don't think the comparison is relevant. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Justin Cody
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
93
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Posted - 2014.02.13 21:10:00 -
[12] - Quote
Batelle wrote:I can imagine that being the case for whs, where a single jump could be significant, or allow you to identify the chain someone is using to transport stuff. But in no way do i see that being the case with a local-restricted k-space. I just don't think the comparison is relevant.
It isn't relevant. What is relevant is showing up in local as immediate intel. The map (aside from cynos) has a 15 minute delay in data and isn't instant data that is specific to who and what is in system. Local chat is overpowered as it stands. I have no problem with people being able to upgrade space in null sec to get active intel/local chat but for free I don't think so. The map data is more statistical and not OP in any way. |
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
3946
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Posted - 2014.02.13 21:58:00 -
[13] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:I know they could make a deployable that blocks local chat! Because deployables are fun emergent gameplay. This would be popular with PvE.
Know a hostile is in the area? Plop these down for every system in an area, and let them scan and search every empty system they have between them and you.
Like laying down smoke, they don't know where to look, while you can watch key entry points and know when to react well in advance.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
220
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Posted - 2014.02.13 22:08:00 -
[14] - Quote
Mournful Conciousness wrote:You'd also have to remove jump metrics from the map when the local IFF modules are not in place. I would be much happier to remove local if some of the statistics gained from the star map were removed. It seems silly to me that some statistics are available to everyone in eve that shouldn't be. |
Justin Cody
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
94
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Posted - 2014.02.13 22:12:00 -
[15] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:You'd also have to remove jump metrics from the map when the local IFF modules are not in place. I would be much happier to remove local if some of the statistics gained from the star map were removed. It seems silly to me that some statistics are available to everyone in eve that shouldn't be.
you're conflating issues. Statistical data isn't updated live except for cynos. |
Bobsled Nutcase Motsu
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
5
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Posted - 2014.02.13 22:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
Justin Cody wrote:Rowells wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:You'd also have to remove jump metrics from the map when the local IFF modules are not in place. I would be much happier to remove local if some of the statistics gained from the star map were removed. It seems silly to me that some statistics are available to everyone in eve that shouldn't be. you're conflating issues. Statistical data isn't updated live except for cynos. Makes it sound like another intel handout, designed to put a dive flag over the heads of anyone active in a system more than an hour or so.... |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
220
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Posted - 2014.02.13 22:17:00 -
[17] - Quote
Justin Cody wrote:Rowells wrote:Mournful Conciousness wrote:You'd also have to remove jump metrics from the map when the local IFF modules are not in place. I would be much happier to remove local if some of the statistics gained from the star map were removed. It seems silly to me that some statistics are available to everyone in eve that shouldn't be. you're conflating issues. Statistical data isn't updated live except for cynos. The point isn't how often its updated, it's how you get it. I could be in branch collecting intel on systems in catch, without moving a single ship, activating a single scan or doing anything else noteworthy of effort involved. Maybe there should be a way to collect this intel yourself if you actually visit the system. It's the same with local. I know of a pilots arrival without having to do anything.
Having this intel usually leads to pilots choosing a system to hunt in, who then use local as a smaller scale tool. they kind of go hand in hand. |
Bobsled Nutcase Motsu
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
5
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Posted - 2014.02.13 22:23:00 -
[18] - Quote
Rowells wrote:The point isn't how often its updated, it's how you get it. I could be in branch collecting intel on systems in catch, without moving a single ship, activating a single scan or doing anything else noteworthy of effort involved. Maybe there should be a way to collect this intel yourself if you actually visit the system. It's the same with local. I know of a pilots arrival without having to do anything.
Having this intel usually leads to pilots choosing a system to hunt in, who then use local as a smaller scale tool. they kind of go hand in hand. Wait, you mean we can gather intel without using local or these handouts that do it all for us?
But, that would take effort, and someone else might do it better than me, what kind of game... ooooo I get it... we're playing a GAME! Sometimes it is easy to forget this is not a MOBA.... the way everything but that command to start firing is pretty much done for you... |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Against ALL Authorities
221
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Posted - 2014.02.13 22:33:00 -
[19] - Quote
Bobsled Nutcase Motsu wrote:Rowells wrote:The point isn't how often its updated, it's how you get it. I could be in branch collecting intel on systems in catch, without moving a single ship, activating a single scan or doing anything else noteworthy of effort involved. Maybe there should be a way to collect this intel yourself if you actually visit the system. It's the same with local. I know of a pilots arrival without having to do anything.
Having this intel usually leads to pilots choosing a system to hunt in, who then use local as a smaller scale tool. they kind of go hand in hand. Wait, you mean we can gather intel without using local or these handouts that do it all for us? But, that would take effort, and someone else might do it better than me, what kind of game... ooooo I get it... we're playing a GAME! Sometimes it is easy to forget this is not a MOBA.... the way everything but that command to start firing is pretty much done for you... I have always fantasized the idea of me in my cheetah silently dropping scout drones and beacons skulking around a contellation collecting information and reporting to my highers. Sounds a lot more fun then checking a map doesn't it? Could bring out a whole new requirement for fleet actions.
And honestly, If you had to work for it, i'd be willing to allow even more intel that isnt even currently available now (number of ships and type logged out in system, scan a station to see who's docked, hack an FC's fleet comms and see some of it's composition, etc.) |
Crasniya
Strange Energy Gentlemen's Agreement
376
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Posted - 2014.02.13 22:51:00 -
[20] - Quote
W-space players are butthurt they don't get things null gets?
One of the most engaging aspects of the different regions of gameplay to me, is that they have unique properties. W-space mechanics work for W-space. Enough said.
I have some intel ideas of my own, but it involves different flavors of things than just manipulating who shows up in the local chat. |
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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
3953
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Posted - 2014.02.13 23:02:00 -
[21] - Quote
Crasniya wrote:W-space players are butthurt they don't get things null gets? I must have missed something, as I never noticed any wormhole dweller express envy towards null having local.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
Justin Cody
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
97
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Posted - 2014.02.17 01:08:00 -
[22] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Crasniya wrote:W-space players are butthurt they don't get things null gets? I must have missed something, as I never noticed any wormhole dweller express envy towards null having local.
It isn't envy...it is disappointment that null has local. I love not having local chat. |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
260
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Posted - 2014.04.01 16:03:00 -
[23] - Quote
Local will never be delayed or removed as Bots rely on local and CCP rely on bots to pay there weekly staff wages. Asking to remove local is like asking a CCP employee to swim the channel when he is barely managing to keep himself from drowning in a puddle.
Yes local is dumb and yes supporting IS boxer and botting is dumb long term but all CCP has been doing for the last 3 years is treading water and trying to survive on a weekly basis. Removing the lifeline that is botting and ISboxer would see eve die in days. Stop whining and go get yourself a bot. |
Alundil
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
450
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Posted - 2014.04.01 16:15:00 -
[24] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Local will never be delayed or removed as Bots rely on local and CCP rely on bots to pay there weekly staff wages. Asking to remove local is like asking a CCP employee to swim the channel when he is barely managing to keep himself from drowning in a puddle.
Yes local is dumb and yes supporting IS boxer and botting is dumb long term but all CCP has been doing for the last 3 years is treading water and trying to survive on a weekly basis. Removing the lifeline that is botting and ISboxer would see eve die in days. Stop whining and go get yourself a bot. The tin foil runs strong in this one. Reynolds called. They would like their surplus back.
We don't want local. Would love to see a delayed local everywhere. Especially for ships entering systems not through a gate.
That said, if I recall correctly, local was added waaaaaay back to help people realize that they weren't alone in a system for chat purposes. Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
485
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Posted - 2014.04.01 16:42:00 -
[25] - Quote
Local has been around as long as I can remember, and my first character was made sometime in the first year. |
Ssoraszh Tzarszh
Eschelon Directive Universal Consortium
56
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Posted - 2014.04.01 16:46:00 -
[26] - Quote
Honestly i think that if it was easy for CCP to do so they would have a long time ago. I believe adding it as a feature in W-Space was only possible because they build it in from the ground up. |
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4055
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Posted - 2014.04.01 17:10:00 -
[27] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Local has been around as long as I can remember, and my first character was made sometime in the first year.
However, I am all for replacing local with a /who chat command that lists all pilots in the chat log rather than the visible display we have now. No instant standings, just links to profiles so you have to check.
That would come with intelligent and sensible tools for information though, like an actual persistant scanner, proximity warnings, and customizable alerts for specific pilots, ships, ship types, etc.
These are quasi-sentient ai driven ships.... A bit of automation on repetitious tasks is reasonable. I would specify that presence in the chat roster be voluntary. If you choose to opt out of being seen in it, you cannot poll it for a current member list either.
As for intel tools, I would most definitely recommend that it be possible to convert effort into intel on all levels. As such, it should be possible between ECM and cloaks to apply effort to disrupt intel.
A cloak would conceal an object, while an ECM device would be very obvious while blinding sensors to everything else under specific conditions.
We're in space. Hunting for targets should be more involved and rewarding than just poking your head in a room and glancing at a list. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked... |
Ssabat Thraxx
Dominion Tenebrarum
203
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Posted - 2014.04.01 18:37:00 -
[28] - Quote
Justin Cody wrote:In W/J-Space we don't have local as intel unless you actively participate in that system. We like this and don't understand why the rest of null sec gets free intel.
So if you already have it how you like it where you live, why do you care how it works elsewhere?
Either the rules apply to everyone, or they don't justly apply to anyone.
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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
4055
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Posted - 2014.04.01 19:05:00 -
[29] - Quote
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:Justin Cody wrote:In W/J-Space we don't have local as intel unless you actively participate in that system. We like this and don't understand why the rest of null sec gets free intel. So if you already have it how you like it where you live, why do you care how it works elsewhere? An example where the residents are satisfied with the mechanic's absence has value, especially to a discussion about another area where the residents are not all happy about the same mechanic being present.
We perversely keep seeing fragments of ideas thrown out which would adapt the game to fit the mechanic, rather than try to make the game continuity flow along it's original path more smoothly.
I would suggest this is EVE, the space ship game, and not EVE, the chat channel with occasional space ships present as backdrops. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked... |
Proclus Diadochu
Obstergo Red Coat Conspiracy
1381
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Posted - 2014.04.01 19:26:00 -
[30] - Quote
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:Justin Cody wrote:In W/J-Space we don't have local as intel unless you actively participate in that system. We like this and don't understand why the rest of null sec gets free intel. So if you already have it how you like it where you live, why do you care how it works elsewhere?
A change like this would also impact wormhole residents as many go into other areas of gameplay for content. Why would changing local from automatic to an upgradable mechanic requiring people to cultivate their sovereign homes be a bad idea?
This idea isn't simply "remove local", it's require local to be a option that requires cultivation of null and effort. This similar debate has been going on in our wormhole community regarding the sensor overlay as well. Most of our community thinks that the game should require effort, and that the mechanics should be designed to favor those who are innovative, active, and apply effort to develop and play the game. CSM9 Candidate | Twitter: @autoritare | Gmail: [email protected] Campaign Thread: http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=325889 My Blog: http://casualcapsuleer.wordpress.com | No-Local News Writer/Editor |
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