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Dasmallredboat
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2014.02.18 01:21:00 -
[1] - Quote
o/
i tend to build a lot of stuff, often with really nice ISK/hr and profit margins
other people in the market usually play the .01 ISK game, sometimes the good old 89899 thing. i can deal with them.
however, there is this one person who has a massive stockpile. he adjusts his sell order two or three times a day and constantly undercuts by a wide marging, usually down to the next full million, sometimes more. he is hardly selling anything and there is no way this is in any way a profitable endeavour. he probably got the minerals for free or something
his stock is too big for me to just buy him out and he is slowly but painfully killing my ISK/hr
any ideas how to deal with that ? the only thing i can think of is to sit it out and i don't really like that idea. |
Erik Sokarad
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2014.02.18 01:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
there are a few things to consider- 1- this person may have much lower costs than you. 2- this person may not know or care about the costs. plus if he needs to liquidate his stock, even at a loss, then he can do so fastest by undercutting. 3- the large undercut strategy is a good one for those who cant be online all day to 0.01 snipe, and i have seen blogs that recommend this strategy.
not much you can do. either sell at a loss, or move to another station, or wait him out. but keep an eye on his price drops, and if he lowers enough then reprocessing to minerals may be a valid idea.
remember, some stuff is on the market because the hauling ship got ganked and looted. |
Silvetica Dian
Manson Family Advent of Fate
727
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Posted - 2014.02.18 01:54:00 -
[3] - Quote
You have a few options.
Firstly what is his motive? He may make a ton of stuff and just doesn't like playing the 0.01 isk game and so drives everyone else away until he is gone. The question you must ask is this. Why is he making so much of just a few things? Most likely he is not. Most likely he is trying to manipulate the market in order to buy stuff cheaply. ie he is a trader and not a manufacturer. As a trader he doesn't care about the manufacturing costs just what did he buy it for and what can he sell it for (and where). Maybe he wants to drive a bunch of manufacturers below a certain price, buy their stuff and then resell either in that market or another. If he is a trader then he doesn't really want to sell that stuff. He relies on people undercutting so that his stack remains intact. Its very size is what intimidates people into the undercut. So a) don't bother undercutting and you have no need to wait it out. b) Keep your manufacturing diverse so you can wait out market swings on some items and profit from the ones that swing in your favour.
NB there are a ton of manufacturers that just don't play 0.01 isk games. they put up reasonable buy orders and reasonable sell orders knowing that the 0.01 isk crowd will happily wait out their smallish orders. These are different and you won't see them adjust orders very often if at all. Just try and spot what patterns are going on and who is doing what and why. Market PVP is pretty complex and i haven't paid enough attention to have much of it worked out so i offer this as a beginners guide rather than an in depth analysis. Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85 |
Scipio Asanari
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
7
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Posted - 2014.02.18 10:06:00 -
[4] - Quote
I've seen people do that before, and while it is annoying, I typically just end up buying out the order and re-listing it for a small profit. This however, does depend on how much below the next sell order it is, also work out the margins and buy it quickly before someone, and someone will, does the 0.01 isk thing |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
101108
|
Posted - 2014.02.18 12:44:00 -
[5] - Quote
Also, EVE Trolls come in a wide variety of forms. This is just one of their methods. "He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."-á - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882 |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1807
|
Posted - 2014.02.18 15:28:00 -
[6] - Quote
if he has a lot more stock than you, and he's willing to sell cheaper than you, then you probably shouldn't try to compete.
If he's willing to operate and no profit or slight loss and you can recognize this, then you should have patience and let your stock sit on the market if you can afford to. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
101221
|
Posted - 2014.02.18 15:52:00 -
[7] - Quote
Batelle wrote:if he has a lot more stock than you, and he's willing to sell cheaper than you, then you probably shouldn't try to compete.
If he's willing to operate and no profit or slight loss and you can recognize this, then you should have patience and let your stock sit on the market if you can afford to.
....or just drag the lot to one of the other 3 trade hubs. This sounds like Jita nonsense imho. "He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."-á - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882 |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1807
|
Posted - 2014.02.18 15:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Batelle wrote:if he has a lot more stock than you, and he's willing to sell cheaper than you, then you probably shouldn't try to compete.
If he's willing to operate and no profit or slight loss and you can recognize this, then you should have patience and let your stock sit on the market if you can afford to. ....or just drag the lot to one of the other 3 trade hubs. This sounds like Jita nonsense imho.
Which takes time and costs money. If this guy's order is a blip rather than a market trend, and you can afford to wait, then moving it to a different hub could very well be a waste of time and money. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1874
|
Posted - 2014.02.18 16:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Also, EVE Trolls come in a wide variety of forms. This is just one of their methods.
As many have said before, market activities in EveO are pvp, just like shooting ships. Calling someone who's market aggressive a troll is bit much, really.
As long as I can still make an acceptable margin on my T2 stuffs, I will ALWAYS undercut using my own personal formula. If I can't make a profit that's acceptable to me, I shelf it and wait a few weeks or a month. For high meta stuffs from mission drops, I will always price it good enough to sell. Don't care about margins, don't care about anything else but selling it. Sorry, but it's market combat. I really don't care who gets bad feelz over me undercutting someone else who is manufacturing T1 stuff at hair-thin margins.
Edit: I don't play the .01 isk game; it's a waste of my time. "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |
voetius
BITB Support Services
188
|
Posted - 2014.02.18 17:45:00 -
[10] - Quote
Alot of good advice above and to repeat, it really depends on what the item is, what the build cost is. Also whether the trader bought or built the items before the materials changed in a patch, in which case, he can sell way under the price it costs you to build.
It also depends on how many days, or weeks stock he is sitting on, market history will tell you whether people buy from sell orders, sell to buy orders, or there is some split between the two, so you can work out from that how long it would take to clear his stack, presuming no-one undercuts him.
If it's not a patch speculation item I'd probably be inclined to keep a small stack on the market just to keep the pressure on him and keep his price low while moving the bulk of your stock somewhere else to sell it. Just depends on how much stuff he has, how patient you are, whether you think the market will turn, etc. Many variables involved means there isn't a simple solution or heuristic for you to use.
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Dasmallredboat
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2014.02.19 01:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
Quote:
1- this person may have much lower costs than you. 2- this person may not know or care about the costs. plus if he needs to liquidate his stock, even at a loss, then he can do so fastest by undercutting. 3- the large undercut strategy is a good one for those who cant be online all day to 0.01 snipe, and i have seen blogs that recommend this strategy.
1 - that does not explain his behaviour. minerals are not free. 2 - more likely. however, he could just dump into buy orders or undercut much deeper. that would help him sell. right now, he is hardly selling anything. 3 - it makes some sense (gevlon was an advocate back in his wow days), but he is not undercutting deep enough for this, and he could move to a much more volatile market where the .01 isk game is not relevant enough. he could make MUCH more money that way.
Quote:b) Keep your manufacturing diverse so you can wait out market swings on some items and profit from the ones that swing in your favour.
i am working on that, sadly, BPO research takes time
Ginger Barbarella wrote: WORDS
your behaviour does not help you sell anything. if you want to sell quick dump into buy orders or find a volatile market. in a slow moving market the lowest sell order sells. you loose money if you are not doing the .01 ISK thing, no matter how often you update your orders.
Quote:....or just drag the lot to one of the other 3 trade hubs. This sounds like Jita nonsense imho.
for some items the only market that moves enough to justify production is jita
Quote:Alot of good advice above and to repeat, it really depends on what the item is, what the build cost is. Also whether the trader bought or built the items before the materials changed in a patch, in which case, he can sell way under the price it costs you to build.
i followed Taus advice on ships ;) |
SJ Astralana
Syncore
29
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 08:41:00 -
[12] - Quote
To directly answer the question of how to deal with a deep undercutter, you should use an adaptive production model that directs your resources toward the items that deliver the best value. You should also have a predetermined per-item minimum markup where you either undercut or stand pat. By all means you should remove the wild-ass-guess and all emotion from the equation. Just as surely as the fastest interceptor gets the tackle, the best set of production management rules gets the highest isk/hour.
Eve Production Manager addresses all of these issues, and provides a competitive advantage that causes your competition to feel like it's trying to fight a machine with no soul. Advanced business rules include slicing the profit out of oversupplied items, holding back for overheated items, and much more. SJ Astralana = Danari = Alak D'bor. I don't fuss about which account/toon is logged in, nor do I hide behind alts. |
Andromeda Zero
Hedion University Amarr Empire
4
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Posted - 2014.02.19 15:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
This topic is super amazing to me. I cannot understand any of you, and this topic is in fact about how you cannot understand someone like me.
As a deep undercutter, let me fill you in on my thought process...
1) Make stuff (kinda boring). 2) Place on market and adjust prices with wild abandon. Run out of patience and drop prices like crazy. 3) Laugh like a lunatic. 4) Say to the wife "Just playing EVE" when she asks why I'm laughing like a crazy person. 5) Look at the market graph after a week or two, and find more amusement with how it used to be flat and stable, and since I joined in it got all crazy looking. 6) Repeat!
Through all of this, my wallet just keeps growing, as does my stockpile of raw materials.
Making the best ISK/hr.? ------ No way. Having the most fun? -------- HELL YES!!!!!!!!!!
Have a profitable day and fly safe! |
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
30
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Posted - 2014.02.19 18:23:00 -
[14] - Quote
Lol isk per hour on sales..... Sales is done by profit per item/ volume. Welcome to market pvp |
Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1875
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 19:10:00 -
[15] - Quote
Dasmallredboat wrote:
your behaviour does not help you sell anything. if you want to sell quick dump into buy orders or find a volatile market. in a slow moving market the lowest sell order sells. you loose money if you are not doing the .01 ISK thing, no matter how often you update your orders.
This really just proves you still don't understand it. I price to sell knowing what profit margin is acceptable to me, AND to actually sell the stuff and not waste my time on the .01 isk thing. If I undercut the .01isk'ers by a good chunk of isk, and my stuff sells with an acceptable profit margin, who wins? I sell to sell... I don't sell for the .012 isk or "opportunity cost" epeen. I leave that up to you elite marketeers. "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |
SJ Astralana
Syncore
29
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Posted - 2014.02.19 20:27:00 -
[16] - Quote
Agondray wrote:Lol isk per hour on sales..... Sales is done by profit per item/ volume. Welcome to market pvp
Isk/hr is precisely where the endgame lies. If I spend 20 minutes per day rather than 10 twitching obsessively over the latest undercut, my isk/hr falls to perhaps 800mil/hr rather than 1.4bil/hr. It's bluntly a waste of time watching a market screen like a coked up day trader. Factory efficiency and capital utilisation of course are factors, but high turnover high isk/hr come more from price/cost ratio volatility than any other factor that I've observed over the past seven years. SJ Astralana = Danari = Alak D'bor. I don't fuss about which account/toon is logged in, nor do I hide behind alts. |
Rashnu Gorbani
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
13
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Posted - 2014.02.20 17:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
SJ Astralana wrote:Eve Production Manager Is that a tool you're charging for to collect people's entire isk making plans? That's nice. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
6299
|
Posted - 2014.02.20 21:48:00 -
[18] - Quote
One time bump to fix forum. |
SJ Astralana
Syncore
29
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Posted - 2014.02.21 08:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
Rashnu Gorbani wrote:SJ Astralana wrote:Eve Production Manager Is that a tool you're charging for to collect people's entire isk making plans? That's nice.
Mate, an industrialist teaching me anything about T1 production is like a 16yo teaching a gynaecologist about vaginas. Production is an isk-printing machine, and I get a rise out of slicing the technical cost of entry so that any 3-month character can compete from a superior footing. Hell, I've got a beta tester competing against me in my own factory using my own tools. It's like watching two computers play chess against each other.
I'm currently working on a data mining project which will expose all the juicy niches in the top 10 hubs. I know what I'm looking for, and all of the information is freely downloadable. This compiled information isn't available anywhere, and it will come as a free integrated report to EPM subscribers. The germ of this idea was planted by my in-factory tester.
SJ Astralana = Danari = Alak D'bor. I don't fuss about which account/toon is logged in, nor do I hide behind alts. |
Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1876
|
Posted - 2014.02.21 16:54:00 -
[20] - Quote
SJ Astralana wrote:Rashnu Gorbani wrote:SJ Astralana wrote:Eve Production Manager Is that a tool you're charging for to collect people's entire isk making plans? That's nice. Mate, an industrialist teaching me anything about T1 production is like a 16yo teaching a gynaecologist about vaginas. Production is an isk-printing machine, and I get a rise out of slicing the technical cost of entry so that any 3-month character can compete from a superior footing. Hell, I've got a beta tester competing against me in my own factory using my own tools. It's like watching two computers play chess against each other. I'm currently working on a data mining project which will expose all the juicy niches in the top 10 hubs. I know what I'm looking for, and all of the information is freely downloadable. This compiled information isn't available anywhere, and it will come as a free integrated report to EPM subscribers. The germ of this idea was planted by my in-factory tester.
It's this kind of ingenuity that makes the EveO community ten times better than any other! Keep up the good work! "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |
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Dasmallredboat
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.21 17:14:00 -
[21] - Quote
btw: i never said it's a bad idea to undercut deep. it makes sense in some situations. but undercutting deep with a sell order that is worth billions and covers multiple days of market volume is.
right now the person in question is selling his stuff at a LOSS (-800k ISK/hr with a good BPO). an even bigger loss if you consider the fact that prices for the intermediate stuff have fallen in the last weeks. |
Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1876
|
Posted - 2014.02.21 20:14:00 -
[22] - Quote
Dasmallredboat wrote:btw: i never said it's a bad idea to undercut deep. it makes sense in some situations. but undercutting deep with a sell order that is worth billions and covers multiple days of market volume is.
right now the person in question is selling his stuff at a LOSS (-800k ISK/hr with a good BPO). an even bigger loss if you consider the fact that prices for the intermediate stuff have fallen in the last weeks.
It seems to me the obvious option here then is to buy his stock up completely, reprocess it, and list your own stuff back at a decent profit. What's the problem? "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1208
|
Posted - 2014.02.21 20:18:00 -
[23] - Quote
extra material ? We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
Banner was used for this Post |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland Test Alliance Please Ignore
542
|
Posted - 2014.02.21 20:24:00 -
[24] - Quote
If he is listing his product at less than the material value, you have options, most of which start with buying his stock. What you do after depends on where the most profit is.
- Relist for easy-mode profit.
- Reprocess and dump the materials on the market.
- Hold the stock until he goes away and relist it then.
- Wait him out.
If he is listing at or above material value and below the market value, your options are to buy him out and relist, or to wait him out.
You can also try contacting the seller and see if he would be willing to just sell directly to you via contract. If he's in a hurry then he will probably say yes.
Personally, I love when people throw out insanely under-priced sell orders. Free Ripley Weaver! |
Dasmallredboat
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2014.02.21 20:35:00 -
[25] - Quote
Quote:Personally, I love when people throw out insanely under-priced sell orders.
so do i, made a few hundred million ISK that way in the last days. however, i still need enough cash to buy his stock without getting myself trapped in having only a single product on the market. not possible right now.
Quote:Relist for easy-mode profit. Reprocess and dump the materials on the market. Hold the stock until he goes away and relist it then. Wait him out.
relisting is not possible, i don't have enough cash and i really don't like owning almost a week worth of market volume for a single product. i get nervous when i own more than a days volume.
reprocessing is not possible.
holding the stock is something i could do but don't like. i very much prefer cash or running industry jobs.
waiting is probably the best way to deal with the situation. time to give the BPO a few extra levels in PE. |
SJ Astralana
Syncore
30
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Posted - 2014.02.22 00:50:00 -
[26] - Quote
Dasmallredboat wrote:waiting is probably the best way to deal with the situation. time to give the BPO a few extra levels in PE.
On this topic, I've found that researching to the point where you can squeeze even just one more unit per day is worth it, but researching so that you can deliver a day's production a few minutes sooner is probably research wasted.
Hyperdrive your production business: Eve Production Manager |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
298
|
Posted - 2014.02.24 22:37:00 -
[27] - Quote
My solution has always been move the BPO somewhere I can actually be competitive. Alternatively just ship the goods elsewhere.
In some cases the entire market seems to slip below production costs (P4 PI is a good current example, almost all P4s are way below production cost at all trade hubs at the moment). This is generally either a sign of market manipulation or a sudden influx of new and particularly stupid industrialists of the "if I mine it the mats are free" variety. In which case either stockpile or go diversify into something else. |
Jonas Staal
Interstellar Booty Hunters
55
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 09:35:00 -
[28] - Quote
An option is that he can only log on once or twice per day, and got sick of the -0.01isk. As long as he's making profit it's better than not selling anything ever. |
Noah Vikeen
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.26 18:08:00 -
[29] - Quote
So reading through the thread as a newbro, tons of great info to chew on here. I can't really add too much to the conversation but will try.
I think it basically comes down to inventory and cost control. If the market fluctuates violently due to market PvP and you don't want to operate in that fashion yourself, then you have to manage your production flow, acquisition and sales properly.
- How can you reduce the cost to build? Better skils and researched BPOs - How can you reduce the cost of build materials? Buy from different locations, setup deals to buy directly from industrialists, mine yourself - How can you maintain the proper inventory to ride out the low profit times? This will require a lot of spreadsheet work but can be done - What do you do when an item isn't profitable? Use the manufacturing slot to build something that is
Just try to think of it as a real world scenario where you are a manufacturer of multiple product lines and have to balance all aspects from sourcing, building and selling all while maintaining a profitable business overall. Once you have the skills and processes in place to manage your inventory control you can ride out any fluctuations and maximize the profit for each manufacturing line you have running full time.
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Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations CODE.
3895
|
Posted - 2014.02.27 03:54:00 -
[30] - Quote
Andromeda basically said what I was going to lol
Stop trying to get inside the head of the guy on the other side, because at best you'll just have a good guess.
My suggestion would be to bypass the market all together and try to find someone who will buy your entire stock at regular intervals for an agreed upon profit margin. You may think you are leaving some isk on the table, but you will free up time and reduce worry. You can either agree on price or cost plus an agreed profit margin. See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did. |
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