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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19445
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Posted - 2014.02.18 20:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
donmess wime wrote:Hello
Are fittable freighters possible without being too overpowered? Has anyone done the math? Depends what you want to fit them with.
If you want to give them rigs or lowslots, they're going to be a whole lot worse than they are nowGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19445
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Posted - 2014.02.18 20:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
donmess wime wrote:Why would a freighter be worse off with lo and rig slots? Because for every low slot you give them, you have to reduce their cargo space by 22% to ensure that they can't reach 1M m-¦. To get back to their current carrying capacity you'll have to fill them with cargo expanders, each of which reduces their hull HP (i.e. where they have the brunt of their hitpoints) by 20%.
So what you end up with is a ship that carries less and/or dies faster.
I'd prefer my freighter to have lots of cargo space and lots of HP, not one or the other (or neither). If you want to carry less and have more EHP, just use a JF or an Orca. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19445
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Posted - 2014.02.18 21:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
Shizuken wrote:Tippia wrote: Because for every low slot you give them, you have to reduce their cargo space by 22% to ensure that they can't reach 1M m-¦.
Other than the ban on caps in highsec, why is this important? The other reason, to pre-empt the obvious counter, is that special rules and exceptions for what can fit into (or onto) what are bad. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19445
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Posted - 2014.02.18 21:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
donmess wime wrote:I agree, i think the Ore Holds are a strange concept, but where do you draw the line? If you make a rule that capital ships cannot fit into a freighter so that freighters can finally be customizable that would not actually be bad It would be ugly as hell, and there's pretty much zero need to customise freighters anyway since they're already fully optimised for what they're supposed to do.
Introducing a fugly rule to solve a non-problem is actually pretty bad. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19445
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Posted - 2014.02.18 21:35:00 -
[5] - Quote
donmess wime[/quote wrote:Along this line it is bad having a ship with no customization, but because it has no customization it is never optimized. Quite the opposite. That's the whole point: the current freighters are even more optimised for their task than they could be if they were given slots.
[quoteGëêThere could be cases where pilots only need to move 300k m3, and would prefer speed or tank instead of cargospace. There could also be cases where pilots need to move more than 900m3 where tank and to some degree speed is irrelevant.[/quote]GǪand the game already has options that cover those eventualities.
Loraine Gess wrote:I'm assuming CCP modifies the hull HP upwards (or not because that could be ********) to compensate for the new need for expanders Why? The request was that the freighters are given customisation abilities, not that they're given a blanket buff. If people wanted a blanket buff, they could just ask for one and not muck around with all this obfuscation. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19445
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Posted - 2014.02.18 21:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
donmess wime wrote:EVE HQ Allows for custom ships. I made a Fenrir with 2 low slots and 3 rig slots. I added Reinforced Bulkheads II, DCU II, and 3 Capital cargohold optimisation rigs. Then i nerfed the stock attributes until the build would be excactly like the current one, cargo wise, EHP and speed wise. GǪmaking it a pointless measure. You'd also have to nerf the attributes even further to counter the eventuality that they fit expanders instead of the bulkhead and DCU. So no matter what, you'd end up with a ship that was much worse in every way, just because you wanted to decide exactly how it should suck.
Personally, I prefer my freighters not to suck to begin with. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19449
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Posted - 2014.02.18 22:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
donmess wime wrote:Im not convinved fittable freighters is a bad idea. Im not convinced they will be worse of. Have you tried reading the thread? It has been explained pretty thoroughly by nowGǪ
Quote:If that is the case then you might as well not bother. That's the whole point. Anything you do to them ends up in one of two camps: the GÇ£why botherGÇ¥ camp or the GÇ£omgz nerfed to hellGÇ¥ camp.
They're pretty much perfect as is, and there is no real problem with that that requires modules to solve, especially not given how much they'd have to be altered (read: made worse) in order to accommodate that ability. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19449
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Posted - 2014.02.18 22:20:00 -
[8] - Quote
Batelle wrote:This would buff freighters. This isn't a problem, because any proposal asking to making them fittable is implicitly asking for a buff anyway. If they want a buff, they should ask for a buff rather than muck around with all this pointless obfuscation.
Quote:I think the only reason to oppose this is if you don't think they need a buff, in which case you can just say so instead of throwing around crap like OMG CAPITALS. And that just proves that you're presumptive and clueless. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19449
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Posted - 2014.02.18 22:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
Batelle wrote:"Pointless obfuscation" is a perfect descriptor for this side issue of packaged capitals. GǪaside from being the exact reason why they can't just be given rig- and lowslots. So it's not so much a pointless obfuscation as it is a pretty salient and glaring obstacle. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19449
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Posted - 2014.02.18 22:50:00 -
[10] - Quote
Batelle wrote:So, since I'm already being presumptive, I think you're making mountains out of molehills in order to say something can't be done, when in actuality you merely think it shouldn't be done. GǪand I think you should stop presuming things and instead just read what's actually being said. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19449
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Posted - 2014.02.18 22:55:00 -
[11] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Well, I saw the OP specifically ask if it would make them overpowered, and I saw you throw the OMG CAPS argument at him instead of simply saying "yes." So, like I said, I think you should stop presuming things and instead just read what's actually being said. If you did, you'd notice that I said that it would make them underpowered. Fancy that.
That's why presumptions are bad for you. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19463
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Posted - 2014.02.19 09:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
Motoko Innocentius wrote:The opposition claiming capitals being the biggest issue is easily averted with a change to capital sizes when packaged, so this isn't really an issue. GǪaside from the many follow-up effects and balance changes they will entail, all to do something that no-one has been able to explain why it is needed to begin with.
Quote:Freighter building companies must have noticed the need for faster, tankier more capable freighters required in this age, GǪand thus they gave us jump freighters.
They also don't have any real incentive to reduce the amount of ships they sell. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19464
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Posted - 2014.02.19 09:33:00 -
[13] - Quote
Motoko Innocentius wrote:There are no multiple issues when a capitals volume is changed when it is repackaged, GǪaside from all the mechanisms that involve those volumes. The fact that you don't realise this doesn't bode well for any suggestions you're making since you're not considering all those secondary and tertiary effects of your GǣsimpleGǥ change (which again somewhat lacks a good reason for ever happening).
Quote:Jf's have a jump drive, and they do not have slots, they also lack ehp. They are faster, tankier, and more capable. Exactly what the doctor ordered. They have a bit over 200k m-¦ and very high EHP. The solution you're looking for already exists.
Ai Shun wrote:Was there ever an answer to this question? Of course not. GÇ£I wantGÇ¥ doesn't have any reason or reasoning behind it other than GÇ£I wantGÇ¥. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19464
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Posted - 2014.02.19 10:14:00 -
[14] - Quote
Motoko Innocentius wrote:Dear tippia, there are no mechanics involving packaged ship volumes. Volumes are handwritten, decided by someone. Only mechanic a packaged ship effects is eating cargo space. Give us these multiple examples of secondary and tertiary effects. Everything to do with capital ship arrays and hangars on POSes.
Quote:Jf's only have 315k ehp, it is not enough. It's more than enough as it is and you can go much much higher by not picking the weakest of them. Hell, you can quite easily push an Ark into 500k EHP territory.
Quote:You should also consider the requirements of industrials. We require cargo space coupled with ehp. I am one so drop the GÇ£weGÇ¥ nonsense. Between freighters, JFs, Orcas and BRs, you have everything you'd ever need. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19532
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Posted - 2014.02.20 20:50:00 -
[15] - Quote
donmess wime wrote:Why are you saying no to this? How could it hurt that freighters get fitting options? This has already been explained.
Quote:You must understand this is a game where player choices are important. GǪand between the many different hauling ships, you have tons of options and choices to make.
Giving them fitting space for the same of giving them fitting space is meaningless. So again, what is it you actually what to achieve? What is the problem you're trying to solve? How is it not being fulfilled by what's already at your disposal? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19960
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Posted - 2014.03.13 17:23:00 -
[16] - Quote
Hoshi Sorano wrote:Ah, yes, flippancy; the defense against all logic. How is it flippant to give a completely accurate, trivially implemented, and entirely straight-forward answer to your question?
Quote:Forming a fleet reduces the efficiency of the haul, dramatically increasing the man hours needed per m3 of cargo moved, which will only result in higher prices. So? If those are your worries, why are you moving through hostile space to begin with? That is where your efficiency and prices take a hit.
Quote:Even though it is an option to accomplish the same end result, the fact remains that there is still not a ship which can move ~300k m3 cargos while fitting its own defense, therefore, the role is still unfilled. Why does this role need to exist? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19967
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Posted - 2014.03.13 18:06:00 -
[17] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Make them balance agility, capacity, and tank, so you get one of the three, but no more. I prefer them the way they are now, where you don't have to sacrifice one (or two) for the other(s). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20037
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Posted - 2014.03.14 17:34:00 -
[18] - Quote
Hoshi Sorano wrote:Why not? Because it would be too safe and too easy and would render too many existing ships and strategies obsolete. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
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