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Claud Tiberius
Falcon United
8
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Posted - 2014.02.19 04:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
Would like some feedback on this fit and its controversial views, if you don't mind
I haven't use fit in combat, but I am curious as to how people think it will go.
Ship: Raven Navy Issue
High
- Cruise Missile Launcher II
- Cruise Missile Launcher II
- Cruise Missile Launcher II
- Cruise Missile Launcher II
- Cruise Missile Launcher II
- Cruise Missile Launcher II
- Cruise Missile Launcher II
- Cruise Missile Launcher II
Med
- Large Shield Extender II
- Large Shield Extender II
- 100MN Microwarpdrive II
- Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II
- EM Ward Amplifier II
- Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
- Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Low
- Overdrive Injector System II
- Nanofiber Internal Structure II
- Ballistic Control System II
- Ballistic Control System II
- Ballistic Control System II
Rigs
- Large Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I
- Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I
- Large Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Stats (lvl 5 skills):
- EHP: 30.3 k
- Max Damage: 838 DPS (T2 Fury Missiles. 7299 Volley, with 15.75 s missile flight time at 220 km).
- Max Target Lock Range: 228 km.
- Max Weapon Range: 220 km (228km if using Faction of T1).
- Capacitor: 2 minutes.
- Targets: 7
- Align time: 12.8 s
Missile details (all 8 slots fitted. Range/Flight-time/DPS):
Faction: 294 km (out of lock range) 21 s 688 dps
T1: 294 km (out of lock range) 21 s 561 dps
T2 (Fury): 220 km 15.75 s 838 dps
T2 (Precision): 147 km 10.5 s 599 dps
Notes:
Drones were not included, however the Ravens are perfectly capable of carrying and using them. The regular Raven will do exactly the same DPS (even though it has only 7 missile slots), missile range, missile flight time and target locking range with similar fitting. Plenty of power and CPU left over for both Raven and Navy Issue. I do not consider this fit to be the best it can be, feel free to throw in some suggestions.
Now the interesting information:
Is it possible that this Raven fit has...
more DPS then the average Sniper Rokh more range then the average Sniper Rokh moves faster then the average Sniper Rokh
Could it be the King of Snipers is not really the King? From my observations on the internet, I think for each case, this is true. If we compare the details:
- Missile damage is subject to the targets signature radius and its speed. This in turn will drop the DPS, but not by much if you take notice. A Raven sniper should be targeting large ships, who are ideal targets for cruise missiles. Meaning most of the damage is not lost. If however the target is still quite fast, the Faction or Precision cruise missiles can be used instead (688 dps with Faction missiles against a fast moving target means you are more likely to see ~400 - 500 damage delt per second). Note prevision missiles have a much less ideal sniper range. In the end though, a sniper should always have a tackler to help out right?
- If we observer the damage at max range from each ship, the Raven (838 dps Fury missiles) will do almost double the DPS then that coming from a Rokh (~400 dps) and the Ravens range will generally be 40 km longer (the Rokh Sniper usually has a range of ~180 km).
- The Raven moves and aligns faster, meaning better speed tank and mobility.
In conclusion the Raven can never be hit because it can always be out of the enemies range and as a bonus, it does more damage. To me this means the Rokh is going to be at a huge disadvantage.
However...
The Rokh I think has a better tank which makes the Ravens DPS less impressive. But this tank can only be improved significantly, if it sacrifices something like its turret tracking, locking range, or speed. All 3 fairly vital to a sniper.
The other also more obvious problem with the Raven is the missile flight time. 15.75 s at 220 km means that it is possible if your sniper fleet is large enough you will deal no damage because the target will be dead by the time the missiles arrive. However this problem is manageable. A fleet commander can direct the missile damage from his/her fleet, so that all missiles are doing max damage. This can be done by diverting the missile sniper fleet to other targets and/or distributing the missile damage over multiple targets, instead of just one.
All things (and other things) considered, the idea of a Raven Sniper is not as bad as what other people make it out to be. I believe in combat this fit can be equal or better then the Rokh. The Raven is after all, designed to do this. The Navy Scorpion and Rokh are more suited to be brawlers.
So any suggestions, comments? The fit I do not think is perfect but for the most part I think it will do the job well. |
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
1079
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Posted - 2014.02.19 05:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
EFT paper DPS does not translate into in-game damage done. The Rokh is better by a large margin. |
ACE McFACE
IronClad Victory Slightly Sexual
1753
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Posted - 2014.02.19 09:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
More DPS, but the Rokh will be doing that DPS right from the start while for the first volley the Raven will be doing no damage at all until the missiles hit, and at 220km, thats going to take quite some time.
Also the Rokh has a chance of actually doing decent damage to non-BS targets. You should be notified if someone quotes your post so you can continue the argument! |
Claud Tiberius
Falcon United
8
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Posted - 2014.02.19 10:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
Fury Cruise missiles take 15.75 seconds to travel 220km. If using Faction or T1's its almost half that time (but also less damage). Destroying BC's is trivial. Cruisers are a different story.
I made a mistake. The Rokh's max weapon range is 238km (optimal) with +34km in fall off, if using spike charges. But to reach targets at that range, the Rokh needs at least 2 sensor boosters, with the targeting range scripts. That will make most EHP float around 85k. tl;dr, it shoots further then the Raven.
I need to rethink all these numbers however. I don't know the exact damage Fury missiles would do against a Rohk that is moving (111m/s), and isn't moving. I assumed when it isnt moving the damage was ~ 500 dps (from 838dps, given all the resistances) but now I'm not sure. I also do not know how well the Rohk will do against a moving Raven (~460m signature radius, 154 m/s).
There is also the whole matter of moving targets and the ehp of each ship, boosters/cap (inc better understanding of my fit - I swapped for a booster and its hard to say how this will improve things).
I think there is a "sweet spot" the raven can get into, where its able to deal damage in its range, and take the least amount of damage from a Rohk, but it looks fairly leveled.
So maybe a new strategy is in order. |
Silvetica Dian
Manson Family Advent of Fate
731
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Posted - 2014.02.19 12:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
The Raven is an appalling PVP ship for many reasons. 1st missiles have a long flight time meaning when ships pop many missiles are still in flight thus wasting DPS. They are very slow. Missiles can be countered with smartbombs. The time to target allows logi to lock before damage is applied. Cruise missile damage drops massively as the speed of the target increases. Manson Family kill ravens preferentially over all other ships. I could go on but i will stop at this point. Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85 |
John Ratcliffe
Sarumans Hand
267
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 12:44:00 -
[6] - Quote
The best RNI templates have been posted so many times it's not funny. OP, stop trying to reinvent the wheel posting **** fits and use the search function. Plus +ša change, plus c'est la m+Žme chose |
Claud Tiberius
Falcon United
8
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Posted - 2014.02.19 13:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
Silvetica Dian wrote:The Raven is an appalling PVP ship for many reasons. 1st missiles have a long flight time meaning when ships pop many missiles are still in flight thus wasting DPS. They are very slow. Missiles can be countered with smartbombs. The time to target allows logi to lock before damage is applied. Cruise missile damage drops massively as the speed of the target increases. Manson Family kill ravens preferentially over all other ships. I could go on but i will stop at this point. These pvp fits are getting old but people still like and use them:
http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/66447-Odyssey-PVP-Raven-Maelraven.html http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/44454-Epic-PVP-Raven.html http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/686-PvP-Tank-Gank-Raven.html
Missiles are not really slow. My cruise missiles move at + 9000 m/s
Smartbombs - Yeah I don't think many pvp fits are going to sacrifice high slots just for destroying missiles.
I haven't had a problem with locking time.
The targets speed is a necessary drawback of missiles, otherwise the missiles would do much more damage then their turret counter parts all the time, regardless of the targets speed. Fortunately for you that isn't the case. But look at it this way, if a rail boat is targeting a webbed ship, the damage is going to remain the same. But for a missile boat it wont be losing any damage to speed, thus more damage is applied then the turret.
Missiles deal consistent damage no matter if you are at 1km or 100km away, meaning u only have to reload if you want to change damage types or target a different type of ship (ie precision missiles for smaller ships). Missile boats can also move all over the place and it will have no effect unlike turret tracking.
Missiles can choose their damage types to do max dmg vs their target, (such as EM or EXP) while hybrids and lasers mostly use Therm and Kinetic (makes it easy to tank them). - more or less a Caldari thing.
The Manson Family sound like very bad people.
So missiles - they are ok.
Quote:The best RNI templates have been posted so many times it's not funny. OP, stop trying to reinvent the wheel posting **** fits and use the search function. Thank you for advising me to do some more searching, although I had already done so before my post (you ignorant *******). I found some new fits that look promising. But I did post here asking for help/advice. This is the right place. So if you don't like it, then gtfo. |
bubble trout
Sky Fighters
187
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Posted - 2014.02.19 14:53:00 -
[8] - Quote
Who the **** is going to shoot a rokh with a raven at 200km+ ?
I don't even. |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1823
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Posted - 2014.02.19 15:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
i guess that will work if you're trying to shot pos mods from outside the range of the pos, but I see no other use for it.
If you want to shoot players, you need to use application rigs, and a MJD would probably be good to have. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Origin. Black Legion.
433
|
Posted - 2014.02.20 09:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
Assuming you are not alone and have people holding your targets for you as well as TP support:
- You don't really need the speed and agility from a MWD, overdrive, nanofiber and polycarb. Rely on a MJD and always be aligned to something
- Firing missiles at ranges greater than 150km, even with the velocity bonuses, is counterproductive. Cruise missiles may be really fast, but it still will take them 15 seconds to fly 150km. By the time your first missile volley has landed if you're firing at 220km, a railgun sniper will have fired 4 to 5 times, a beam sniper 3 times and an artillery sniper 2 times, all for more applied upfront damage. As a sniping ship, the longer you are firing the more at risk you are.
- If you lose your support and your targets aren't tackled, you are effectively useless. In the time it takes for your missiles to land even a carrier has a chance to warp out from a standstill.
Now the RNI is probably the best cruise missile platform between its eight hardpoints and explosion radius bonus, meaning it can apply tremendous volley damage to smaller hulls with just a little help, but the issues with "missile sniping" remain and make an unsupported Raven unable to do much.
If you want to have better chances of success with this setup, refit to a MJD and limit yourself to firing at no more than 100km. WIth a single missile speed rig it'll take normal cruise missiles 8-10s to reach its target based on skills. That delay is about equal to your module cycle time and is a more acceptable compromise than an initial 15s+. Make sure you fly with proper tackling ships (a Huginn and Lachesis pair is perfect for this) and with 2 or 3 missile spewing friends for better alphastrike potential. Don't be alone, not because of the implied risk but because you simply will not achieve anything.
A nifty if risky trick you can do is to coordinate your volleys with MJDing towards your target. With proper timing, you can have two missile volleys land at the same time, resulting in potential alpha on par or surpassing that of a triple gyro Maelstrom. No sig. |
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
6299
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Posted - 2014.02.20 22:09:00 -
[11] - Quote
One time bump to fix forum. |
Hagika
Hipsters In Space
208
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Posted - 2014.03.22 17:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
Missiles in pvp in general suck. CCP seems to have a unbelievable hate against the phoenix and torps. On top of that, missiles just arent worth the time.
For the ridiculous flight time of missiles, the alpha needs to be higher than arty. |
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