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Oedus Caro
Caldari Caldari Deep Space Ventures
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Posted - 2006.10.11 23:45:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Sarmaul
Originally by: Ahop Yol Is it just BPO owners
correction: BPO owner. one guy owns pretty much all the COCDII bpos and so can charge whatever the **** he wants for them
So um, whatever happened to antitrust law? Nerf his inventory!
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Nanobotter Mk2
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Posted - 2006.10.12 00:02:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Same old nonesense for everything t2. Flawed implementation has allowed for easily monopolized markets because of the poor choice ot implement a fixed number of bpo's for tech2. Instead of have limited run t2 bpos that are constantly being introduced to move around the suppliers.
I don;t blame the player charging, I blame CCP for creating such a easily monopolized system, that totaly destroy's any risk reward concept supposedly ingrained in this game.
If you don't like it, don't buy it. Every time you complain about T2, Vagabond prices go up by 1M.
I don't buy it, but it doesnt mean the system isnt broken lol. you are just a lucky benificiary of an extremely broken aspect of EVE and lord knows why it has been allowed to last this long. Most every other broken risk vs reward aspect gets immediate fixing t2 market allowed to go on forever /boggle. Heck I would say the t2 monopoly is even more broke than the complex spawns, but those got fixed asap, atleast the complex farmers were at some risk, t2 bpo holder never have to undock and barely have to put any playtime in for thier ISK duping
PS: You don;t have the guts to up your prices by 1 million for every complaint so save the tough talk lucky.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.12 00:05:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 PS: You don;t have the guts to up your prices by 1 million for every complaint so save the tough talk lucky.
CBA to read your post but saw the last sentence. Dont tempt me. --------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness and God is kind. Vagabond pilots want http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=405915 |
Flesh Eater
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Posted - 2006.10.12 02:08:00 -
[64]
I'm sick of people who come in and claim to be experts on the eve economy coz they studied economics at uni or whatever. I'm sure Eve is sufficiently different to make such knowledge be of limited use.
The supply and demand argument isn't really valid when we have a monopoly on the BPOs - people can just charge whatver they like. Also, unlike real life, we have GMs/Devs who can do anything they want to the environment - this is why people are making comments of what the prices should be, in the hope that changes will be made which affect prices.
I don't think anyone can dispute that CCP can manipulate things to change prices of tech II modules fairly easily. Given this, it then depends on your values - are the centred on economics, or on the consumers- the people who have to spend money to get them. Unfortunately, in the real world, there is a massive value on economics - for example, Ive seen recently stories about how the economies of various countries might be ruined by rising waterlevels. In these very same articles, the fact that millions of people would be displaced and many die of disease was a side note.
So, what should be done in Eve? Value the economy above the "quality of life" of the players, or change things so that players come first and pay the value which the devs envisioned that the tech II ships were worth.
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zeKzn
Empire of Destiny
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Posted - 2006.10.12 02:15:00 -
[65]
The sheer number of people spouting vitriol about economics and evil rich people saddens me. It also explains why the US ends up funding the rest of the world's economies.
If you haven't studied economics, dont try to talk about it, really.
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Itty-Bitty Crow <3 |
Miss Overlord
Gallente Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2006.10.12 02:26:00 -
[66]
kali is coming soon enough that will halve prices overnight- tho u may make a reasonable profit trading the new data cores
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zeKzn
Empire of Destiny
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Posted - 2006.10.12 02:27:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Miss Overlord kali is coming soon enough that will halve prices overnight- tho u may make a reasonable profit trading the new data cores
It wont be anywhere close to overnight, and the prices probably wont even halve.
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Itty-Bitty Crow <3 |
Miss Overlord
Gallente Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2006.10.12 02:33:00 -
[68]
u can assume the smart traders will begin to stockpile t1 cloaking devices before kali goesi n and quickly lock in supplies of the new fangled stuff once KALI goes in
That said HACs will see the most benefit and AF prices might also be cut from 20-25m down to say 10 ot 15 mil
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zeKzn
Empire of Destiny
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Posted - 2006.10.12 02:35:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Miss Overlord u can assume the smart traders will begin to stockpile t1 cloaking devices before kali goesi n and quickly lock in supplies of the new fangled stuff once KALI goes in
That said HACs will see the most benefit and AF prices might also be cut from 20-25m down to say 10 ot 15 mil
It still depends on just how much the invention process ends up costing people, as well as the time involved. The only thing that would be guaranteed to effectively halve prices is to double the amount of bpos and ensure they dont end up with the same guy.
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Itty-Bitty Crow <3 |
Miss Overlord
Gallente Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2006.10.12 02:36:00 -
[70]
Originally by: zeKzn
Originally by: Miss Overlord u can assume the smart traders will begin to stockpile t1 cloaking devices before kali goesi n and quickly lock in supplies of the new fangled stuff once KALI goes in
That said HACs will see the most benefit and AF prices might also be cut from 20-25m down to say 10 ot 15 mil
It still depends on just how much the invention process ends up costing people, as well as the time involved. The only thing that would be guaranteed to effectively halve prices is to double the amount of bpos and ensure they dont end up with the same guy.
im still in favour of agents giving out less t2 BPOs and more mid range 100 BPC run offers to a greater variety of ppl (and also perhaps overall boosting total supply by 30%) in cases where prices are out of sync.
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zeKzn
Empire of Destiny
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Posted - 2006.10.12 02:39:00 -
[71]
What people dont realise is if you remove the opportunity to make obscene profits in the long run by going into the research/production path, the player economy would die a horrible, slow death. The only reason it works irl is because there's no option like running missions, and people have to make money somehow - in eve the opportunities have to exceed those available to pure mission farming, which is considerable.
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Itty-Bitty Crow <3 |
Flesh Eater
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Posted - 2006.10.12 03:13:00 -
[72]
Originally by: zeKzn
Edit: Pretty much the only things that make EVE differ from a real world economy in any significant fashion are the lack of other currencies (although GTC sales ingame makes this not a huge difference, really)
Originally by: zeKzn
and the fact that CCP could, if they felt inclined to make SOE's mistake, tamper with the economy at will.
Thats a pretty big difference....
Also: - The money is not real. It's just a game, people will be much more rash with their money in Eve than in real life. Economically, this could have many results...
- Items can be recycled into minerals
- Little market regulation in Eve. True capitalism requires the market to be "free", but that never happens in real life.
...Im sure there are craploads more differences in the eve economy and the real world economy. Having said that, there are probably more similarities than differences, but the differences (of which probably are not fully understood) shouldn't be ignored.
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Brenda Bloom
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Posted - 2006.10.12 03:14:00 -
[73]
Originally by: zeKzn Edited by: zeKzn on 12/10/2006 02:17:08 Edit: Pretty much the only things that make EVE differ from a real world economy in any significant fashion are the lack of other currencies (although GTC sales ingame makes this not a huge difference, really) and the fact that CCP could, if they felt inclined to make SOE's mistake, tamper with the economy at will.
I guess you missed the part where this is a game and REAL PEOPLE can't add ideas and their own inventions to the game. Go back in time and tell Harrison Ford that he couldn't make the manufactoring of cars more efficient. Or hey, go tell some generic soda manufactorer that they can't make their cheap, knock-off Coke-Cola because Coke-Cola did it first, and god gave them and ONLY THEM the blueprints to make it.
Get a clue please, comparing the economy to EvE to real life is like comparing apples to oranges.
Yes, CCP put time and effort into it but it has it's flaws and this is also a game.
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Wrayeth
Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.10.12 03:36:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 12/10/2006 03:36:53
Originally by: Brenda Bloom
Go back in time and tell Harrison Ford that he couldn't make the manufactoring of cars more efficient.
Harrison Ford is a manufacturing guru?
In all seriousness, if I remember correctly it was HENRY Ford. -Wrayeth
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
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zeKzn
Empire of Destiny
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Posted - 2006.10.12 03:37:00 -
[75]
Edited by: zeKzn on 12/10/2006 03:42:05
Originally by: Flesh Eater Also: - The money is not real. It's just a game, people will be much more rash with their money in Eve than in real life. Economically, this could have many results...
Its as real as any money you've ever used. Money has no value except that attached to it by people, the value of the paper your money is printed on is very little removed from the value of the code that represents a single ISK, or whatever. Find me proof that people are more rash with their money in EVE as opposed to RL that isn't a direct result of the circumstances present in EVE, and I may relent on this point.
Quote:
- Items can be recycled into minerals
And?
Edit: Furthermore, this isn't a difference. You can do this irl as well, its just not very cost-effective.
Quote: - Little market regulation in Eve. True capitalism requires the market to be "free", but that never happens in real life.
Economics is not the study of real life. Economics is the study of economic forces in action. Yes, regulation occurs more than it should irl, but it doesn't (thank god) occur almost at all in EVE. This is the result of such unbridled capitalism, and frankly I fail to see the downside from an economic standpoint. The only downside is for selfish idiots who think only of themselves, rather than the economy as a whole. Rather like RL, in that regard.
Quote: ...Im sure there are craploads more differences in the eve economy and the real world economy. Having said that, there are probably more similarities than differences, but the differences (of which probably are not fully understood) shouldn't be ignored.
Until you can name them they are essentially meaningless. Making decisions based on the existance (or lack thereof) of differences, and moreover differences that we do not understand, is out of the question.
As for CCP's ability to tamper, it would be a big difference if you compared it to the US, yes, but not for some economies. Moreover, CCP crucially doesn't tamper, which renders the difference meaningless until they do.
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Itty-Bitty Crow <3 |
zeKzn
Empire of Destiny
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Posted - 2006.10.12 03:40:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Brenda Bloom I guess you missed the part where this is a game and REAL PEOPLE can't add ideas and their own inventions to the game. Go back in time and tell Harrison Ford that he couldn't make the manufactoring of cars more efficient. Or hey, go tell some generic soda manufactorer that they can't make their cheap, knock-off Coke-Cola because Coke-Cola did it first, and god gave them and ONLY THEM the blueprints to make it.
Get a clue please, comparing the economy to EvE to real life is like comparing apples to oranges.
Yes, CCP put time and effort into it but it has it's flaws and this is also a game.
I guess you missed the fact that theses have been written comparing MMO economies to RL economies.
I guess you missed the giant thread that essentially proved that "its a game" is an utterly meaningless statement.
Of course there are differences, because ultimately nobody could code something that would allow for what you're suggesting. But really, even irl, "real people" cant add ideas and inventions of their own very often, because of the amount of education, work, marketing, and capital involved in the process.
I think you need to think out your replies a bit more instead of relying on playing the "lol u r a loser" card to win you arguments.
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Itty-Bitty Crow <3 |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2006.10.12 03:59:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Brenda Bloom Go back in time and tell Harrison Ford that he couldn't make the manufactoring of cars more efficient.
And if they didn't he'd get Chewy to rip their arms out..
I think you mean 'Henry'
___________________________________________________________________________________________________ [2:02:08] Dred'Pirate Jesus > I'm Mexican you dolt.. It's pronouced "hey zeus" not "gee zus" : |
Villaine Vangard
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Posted - 2006.10.12 03:59:00 -
[78]
well, at least its a game. they should introduce mechanics to make wars about T2 BPOs. has there ever been one? didnt hear about that. maybe T2 production only possible in lowsec to make them more "conquerable"? make the names of T2 producers public. well alts, ok. maybe theres a possibility to do it anyway.
well these ideas arent supposed to be good... my point is: enforce war about T2 BPOs
___________________________________________ my main says i look good
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Feta Solamnia
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Posted - 2006.10.12 04:40:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Feta Solamnia on 12/10/2006 04:40:37 Neither proto or impro prices/supply have anything to do with the covops cloak prices (last I checked the market was like 1-2 months ago). I won't bother re-iterating the argument for the 3rd time, check my post history.
I highly doubt that Naal has anything close to 18 of the prints. I have been informed that he did indeed have 3 or 4 somewhere in the past + the prodchain of the other 2 cloaks. Now, that was 6 months ago.
I see no possible way for him, even if investing 100% of profits and ganking the bpo owners 23/7 to get remotely close to 18 out of 20 prints.
Take a look around. Check the killboards. You will see that the cloaking recon cruisers are VERY popular. And they do tend to die a lot (even though this has no effect as long as 100% produce is sold, which it seems to be true at least for the amarr one).
Stable supply, hopping mad fresh demand. I don't see a cap on the cloak prices anywhere below 100m, unless invention changes something.
Originally by: Oveur
I have access to all market data. Believe me, we have not reached anything close to deflation yet.
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DuckM4n Vo
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Posted - 2006.10.12 05:11:00 -
[80]
well if its tooo expensive then dont buy it, wait for kali and its promised invention and such,
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Arashi Miike
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.10.12 05:39:00 -
[81]
Originally by: zeKzn
Edit: Not to mention you can make cheap knock off copies of t2 gear. Its called t1.
This is true for many (most) T2 items in EVE. However, there are a few T2 ships and mods that can do things that no T1 item can do.
For example:
A T1 Cap Recharger and a T2 Cap Recharger do essentially the same thing. Both decrease your capacitor's recharge time by a percent. The T2 version just gives you a greater percent decrease. Similarly, a Thorax and a Deimos do essentially the same things, the Deimos just does them better. (higher resists, extra damage bonus, ect.)
However, this is not the case with all T2 items, most notably with cloaking. If you want to warp while cloaked, you absolutely need a Covert Ops or Recon ship with a Covert Ops cloak. There is no T1 equivalent that can do that, except a bit worse.
"I should have been a pair of ragged claws/ scuttling across the floors of silent seas." |
zeKzn
Empire of Destiny
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Posted - 2006.10.12 05:45:00 -
[82]
and for that kind of unique ability that cannot be cheaply knocked off, would it not make sense that the price rises far above that where there are t1 subsitutes, however bad those substitutes are? _______
zeKzn - Empire of Destiny mods go here :> |
Bermag
Point-Zero Ratel Alliance
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Posted - 2006.10.12 09:02:00 -
[83]
One big difference between real life market and T2 market in Eve is that in real world you can always increase supply, even if it is expensive. But with T2 you can never increase supply.
I think cloaking device market might be a problem even in Kali. To make a T2 cloak you not only need to get the bpc for covert cloaking device from invention, which by itself require a T1 bpc, which doesn't even exist. On top of that you still need a improved cloaking device II (whcih in turn require a prototype cloaking device) to make it.
If it will even work. I am afraid that cloaking devices will be on of those that devs will say "oops didn't think about that"
And how will yuo make a prototype cloaking device? It is in reality a T2 module (require T2 components etc) but there are no T1 item to use for inventing a bpc.
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Ka Lok
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Posted - 2006.10.12 09:17:00 -
[84]
Originally by: zeKzn Edited by: zeKzn on 12/10/2006 02:17:08 It also explains why the US ends up funding the rest of the world's economies.
If you haven't studied economics, dont try to talk about it, really.
this made me LOL, please follow your own advise...
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Morpheus Solo
Minmatar Solaris Technologies Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.12 09:24:00 -
[85]
You can all take it easy about the high T2 proces on some items, like cov ops II, car II and hulk for example. When Kali releases inventions those price are history very quickly
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2006.10.12 09:56:00 -
[86]
Now I see t2 covops cloak sold on 70-75kk. What a great idea with lottery, CCP!
FYI, t2 covops cloak is absolute requirement for the operating in 0.0. This device will be bought at any price. Possibly even 200kk do not stop buying. And now one person monopolize whole market...
P.S. CCP, stop this madness, please.
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Butter Dog
The Dead Miners Society
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Posted - 2006.10.12 10:04:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 12/10/2006 00:07:11
Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 PS: You don;t have the guts to up your prices by 1 million for every complaint so save the tough talk lucky.
CBA to read your post but saw the last sentence. Dont tempt me. When Vagabonds reach 400M, the whole Vagabond community might want to taste your blood.
*cough*invention*cough*
And which ship is everyone going to get BPC's for I wonder? Clue: It won't be the Guardian.
Get ready for a market correction.
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Agama
Dragons Of Redemption Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.10.12 22:22:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Butter Dog
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 12/10/2006 00:07:11
Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 PS: You don;t have the guts to up your prices by 1 million for every complaint so save the tough talk lucky.
CBA to read your post but saw the last sentence. Dont tempt me. When Vagabonds reach 400M, the whole Vagabond community might want to taste your blood.
*cough*invention*cough*
And which ship is everyone going to get BPC's for I wonder? Clue: It won't be the Guardian.
Get ready for a market correction.
Speaking for myself....its this kind of price madness that basically was the final straw that made stop bothering to traing for HACs, Force Recons, etc.
Its just nuts. I really hope that the whole Kali invention feature will fix all of this up. However, as stated before.....there looks like there is no hope for the cloaks.
Side note -> If the server population has doubled....what don't they at least seed more BPO's?
'Death solves all problems- no man, no problem' J.V. Stalin, 1918
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Nymos
Celtic Anarchy Black Reign Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.10.13 08:50:00 -
[89]
how could innovation drive down the prices of cov ops cloaks? (they're >70m in the forge atm. the cloak costs 8-10 times as much as a cov ops frigate and as much as force recon ships)
what i mean is, how will one be able to innovate a cloaking device that has no tech1 counterpart? someone said prototype cloaks were seeded by events so basically there's no way to increase supply because there is no t1 blueprint to innovate.
--
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Faruda
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Posted - 2006.10.13 11:12:00 -
[90]
Do not understand what game CCP is playing with their ashamed BPO lottery?
Evident, that increased player base increase demand for modules. In normal world increased demands *usually* leads to increasing offer. In Eve it always leads to increasing price.
Evident, that Eve t2 market could be monopolized very quickly(e-bay is straightforward road). In normal world monopoly is regulated by the law. In CCP monopoly dictates conditions.
Consequences. As far as I know, CCP want people move to 0.0. Good idea. Even excellent idea. But there is one problem, without *reasonably cheap t2 equipment existance for noobs nad their noob corps in 0.0 area will be short and painful.
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