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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2006.04.18 17:46:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Jim Raynor on 18/04/2006 17:47:04
Originally by: Jin Entres
Originally by: Jim Raynor
Can someone please explain to me why Minmatar ships with a shield boosting bonus get 7.5%/lvl and Caldari ships with a shield boosting bonus get 5%/lvl?
All these Minmatar ships are Battlecruisers: Cyclone, Sleipnir, Claymore. There is only one Caldari ship with a shield boosting bonus: Hawk, and it's an assault ship. Comparing bonuses of two different ship classes is hardly valid.
If you meant the more common 5% resistance bonus, It's because of balance and two different attributes are rarely balanced with identical bonuses. If you wish to argue about the usefulness of these two bonuses, provide some math.
No I mean the 5% shield boost per level of the hawk (and previously moa/eagle) compared to the new 7.5% shield boosting of serveral minmatar ships.
Why should the hawk only get 5% and the cyclone and its variants should get 7.5% per level? It doesn't make much sense to me, if 5%/lvl was deemed too weak for the cyclone why is it not too weak for other ships that have the same bonus? Last time I checked the Hawk was hardly an offensive powerhouse.. ------
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Asnar
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Posted - 2006.04.18 18:15:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Jim Raynor Edited by: Jim Raynor on 18/04/2006 17:47:04
Originally by: Jin Entres
Originally by: Jim Raynor
Can someone please explain to me why Minmatar ships with a shield boosting bonus get 7.5%/lvl and Caldari ships with a shield boosting bonus get 5%/lvl?
All these Minmatar ships are Battlecruisers: Cyclone, Sleipnir, Claymore. There is only one Caldari ship with a shield boosting bonus: Hawk, and it's an assault ship. Comparing bonuses of two different ship classes is hardly valid.
If you meant the more common 5% resistance bonus, It's because of balance and two different attributes are rarely balanced with identical bonuses. If you wish to argue about the usefulness of these two bonuses, provide some math.
No I mean the 5% shield boost per level of the hawk (and previously moa/eagle) compared to the new 7.5% shield boosting of serveral minmatar ships.
Why should the hawk only get 5% and the cyclone and its variants should get 7.5% per level? It doesn't make much sense to me, if 5%/lvl was deemed too weak for the cyclone why is it not too weak for other ships that have the same bonus? Last time I checked the Hawk was hardly an offensive powerhouse..
Cause 5% boost sucks compaired too 5% resists per lvl, 5% shield boost doesn't suck compaired too other assualt frigate bonuses. End of story kthxbye. And how exactly do you adapt to potentially getting killed by everybody you kill? -Nero Scuro If I miss you, it will be because my tracking is a little off. - Grey Area |
LUKEC
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Posted - 2006.04.18 18:56:00 -
[93]
Me waits for hawk to get retardedly overpowered by getting 4x launchers.
Die, die, die. |
Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.04.18 19:11:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi Why would Pottsey need WCS when her domi can rip just about any BS to streds in a 1 on 1 or even 2 on 1. Passive Tanks are pretty bad arse tbh especially on a Domi, Scorp and Raven.
no one is saying wcs, they are saying warp desrupters, u know the mod taht stops people warping out
since his domi is close range i assume, i dont think pottseys shield tanked domi would stand much of a chance agaist most proper fitted BS. only thing its got is the ability to zap lots of cap well 80% or more close range ships have a heavy injecter on so that isnt gona be a problem!
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Decrease blaster CPU useage Decrease Hybrid cap useage Balance all weapon systems DO IT SOON |
xKillaH
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Posted - 2006.04.18 19:20:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Gronsak
Originally by: Pottsey
this cant be true, im not saying it isnt, but no way! the best active tank on a CS i know of is 750 DPS, so i cant think of any way you could get 1000DPS passive tank!
you obviously haven't seen the bonus on Astarte. with ions it can have 1000dps Need a Sig? Gallery |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2006.04.18 19:21:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Asnar
Originally by: Jim Raynor Edited by: Jim Raynor on 18/04/2006 17:47:04
Originally by: Jin Entres
Originally by: Jim Raynor
Can someone please explain to me why Minmatar ships with a shield boosting bonus get 7.5%/lvl and Caldari ships with a shield boosting bonus get 5%/lvl?
All these Minmatar ships are Battlecruisers: Cyclone, Sleipnir, Claymore. There is only one Caldari ship with a shield boosting bonus: Hawk, and it's an assault ship. Comparing bonuses of two different ship classes is hardly valid.
If you meant the more common 5% resistance bonus, It's because of balance and two different attributes are rarely balanced with identical bonuses. If you wish to argue about the usefulness of these two bonuses, provide some math.
No I mean the 5% shield boost per level of the hawk (and previously moa/eagle) compared to the new 7.5% shield boosting of serveral minmatar ships.
Why should the hawk only get 5% and the cyclone and its variants should get 7.5% per level? It doesn't make much sense to me, if 5%/lvl was deemed too weak for the cyclone why is it not too weak for other ships that have the same bonus? Last time I checked the Hawk was hardly an offensive powerhouse..
Cause 5% boost sucks compaired too 5% resists per lvl, 5% shield boost doesn't suck compaired too other assualt frigate bonuses. End of story kthxbye.
amazing, 37.5% shield boost sucks? thats better than a full lowgrade crystal implant set and like having a free dread guristas shield boost amp on your ship.. ok.
guess crystal sets suck ass now right? ------
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LUKEC
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Posted - 2006.04.18 19:23:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Gronsak
Originally by: Kaylana Syi Why would Pottsey need WCS when her domi can rip just about any BS to streds in a 1 on 1 or even 2 on 1. Passive Tanks are pretty bad arse tbh especially on a Domi, Scorp and Raven.
no one is saying wcs, they are saying warp desrupters, u know the mod taht stops people warping out
since his domi is close range i assume, i dont think pottseys shield tanked domi would stand much of a chance agaist most proper fitted BS. only thing its got is the ability to zap lots of cap well 80% or more close range ships have a heavy injecter on so that isnt gona be a problem!
Vampadomi makes baby jesus cry unless you either shield tank it with injector & neuts or EW in mids. Shield tank has issues with scrambling stuff. I think you need at least 2 slots to keep blasterthron there. And guess what, good luck tanking with 3 meds:P
Die, die, die. |
Copine Callmeknau
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Posted - 2006.04.19 07:47:00 -
[98]
Assuming you have enough money (and a tackler) the claymore can get resists of 90.6/85/88.6/85 and boost 1003 hp every 4 seconds (b type deadspace gear, and lg crystal) . This'd give you a tank of 2055 dps vs lasers, and 1899 dps vs hybrids.
Though as people have said, the fleet command has the damage output of a wet paper towel, and this claymore is no different. If it can't kill the enemy within 3 minutes it'll run out of cap, sooner if it's being nossed.
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With five million sheep in this army I seem to be the only one fit to command
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Deathbarrage
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Posted - 2006.04.19 09:32:00 -
[99]
I know for a fact that dual repper astarte/absolution really owns ass.... Just about impossible to break tank and they hit damned hard
Astarte with 7 ions with void and dual repper with 3 energized platings = OUCH
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Theron Gyrow
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Posted - 2006.04.19 09:38:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Jim Raynor
Originally by: Asnar Cause 5% boost sucks compaired too 5% resists per lvl, 5% shield boost doesn't suck compaired too other assualt frigate bonuses. End of story kthxbye.
amazing, 37.5% shield boost sucks? thats better than a full lowgrade crystal implant set and like having a free dread guristas shield boost amp on your ship.. ok.
guess crystal sets suck ass now right?
You know, it is usually considered good manners to read the post to which you respond... The comparison was between the 5%/level resistance bonus and the old 5%/level boost bonus, not the current 7.5%/level boost bonus.
As to why the boost bonus is currently 7.5%/level:
25% additional shield resistance effectively increases the size of your shield by 33.3%, the boosting amount by 33.3% _and_ the passive regen rate by 33.3%. I'd say that that at least matches the 37.5% boost bonus. When compared to the old 25% bonus to boosting amount, it was... not balanced.
-- Gradient's forum |
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.04.19 10:22:00 -
[101]
dont you think we are going about this the wrong way?
lets compair CS to a BS that costs the same, example would be compairing a astarte to a blasterthron with
7x t2 neutrons [mid nos if it fits] 15km webber [a blasterthron pilots wet dream tbh], 30km desrupter. mwd t2. med cap injecter] 3x 22.5% faction energized adaptives, 1x best named dcu, 2x t2 dmg mods, 1L t2 repper.
should cost a total of. 100mil webber, 100mil faction hardeners, might need to drop the 30km desrupter to keep price sub 200mils. the rest like guns are about the same price ect.
so would you want that mega or an astarte for pvp. also there is the chance that if that mega pops and ur side wins they will loot your can and getting some faction mods back where a astarte looses almost all its value on poping, so its still cheaper to have the BS.
-------------------Sig-----------------------
Decrease blaster CPU useage Decrease Hybrid cap useage Balance all weapon systems DO IT SOON |
Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.04.19 10:30:00 -
[102]
or a better example.
a pulse gedden.
3x 55% faction hardeners, 1x 22.5% to all. 1x best named DCU. 2x dmg mod. 1x large t2 repper. 30km desrupter. webber. med cap injecter. 7x megapulse. medium named nos/neut
it fits with a -3% cpu inplant!
3x faction 55% cost 60mil isk, faction 22.5% less than 35mils. 30km about 80mils. total = 175mils
that ships got 5x heavy drones doing exp. about 900 DPS from guns useing t2 high dmg ammo. 45km range with t2 long range pulse ammo. 15km with t1 multi.
i would love that over an absol !
-------------------Sig-----------------------
Decrease blaster CPU useage Decrease Hybrid cap useage Balance all weapon systems DO IT SOON |
KilROCK
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Posted - 2006.04.19 10:36:00 -
[103]
Gronsak has no knowledge of module values apparently..
Originally by: KilROCK I make sigs, evemail me if interested.
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.04.19 10:49:00 -
[104]
Edited by: Gronsak on 19/04/2006 10:50:57
Originally by: KilROCK Edited by: KilROCK on 19/04/2006 10:40:22 Gronsak has no knowledge of module values apparently..
Oh and, i wish more people would fly their bthrons like you fly yours gronsak, good loot when it pops.
i know some large guns cost more than med guns. but look at neutron blaster cannon vs heavy neutron cannons, its basicly the same price.
if ur talking about the faction stuff ur probably right, but i tend to buy faction 55% hardeners for 3mils, got about 20 of each type stocked too. there are places cheaper than escrow and forums!
or the lower tier large pulse which is only 1 mil a piece!
the problem is killrock with my b-thron, i only loose about 1 per 6months :P
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Decrease blaster CPU useage Decrease Hybrid cap useage Balance all weapon systems DO IT SOON |
KilROCK
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Posted - 2006.04.19 10:51:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Gronsak
the problem is killrock with my b-thron, i only loose about 1 per 6months :P
It has to do with the fact you're in a corp full of 'yourself'.
Originally by: KilROCK I make sigs, evemail me if interested.
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Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2006.04.19 14:00:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Jin Entres ...Thus, the Megathron has 30.3% more effective hitpoints. It should also be noted that since the Megathron has lower base resistances, modules that increase resistances grant greater bonuses to it. Thus, with actual tanks the difference becomes even greater...
Jin, this is incorrect. A resistance module will reduce the amount of damage taken based on its own resistance. This has nothing to do with the base resistance of the ship. An Explosive hardner will reduce explosive damage taken by 50% no matter what ship you put it on (barring any stacking penalties). ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2006.04.19 14:06:00 -
[107]
The problem I have with Pottsey's numbers is she tends to quote peak recharge rate. This is momentary and based on how fast your enemy can push you below that 30% mark.
The rate that should be quoted is probably RMS. Or an average based on integrating the charge rate over time.
Im not tryin to say its not good, but a passive tank is strongly affected by the DPS of your enemy in a non-linear fashion. Peak charge is disingenuous. ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Pottsey
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Posted - 2006.04.19 17:12:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Pottsey on 19/04/2006 17:13:48 ôThe problem I have with Pottsey's numbers is she tends to quote peak recharge rate. This is momentary and based on how fast your enemy can push you below that 30% mark.ö Can you explain how the enemy is going push me below the 30% mark? The reason I do peak is in this case peak is so high the enemy has next to no chance 1v1 to get near peak let alone break it. When you can tank near 1200 DPS against hybrid turrets at peak then average doesnÆt really matter 1v1. Unless you know a hybrid setup that does that much damage then I will happily work out average.
Working out average is only needed if the enemy can break the tank. But you are right, I will try to get in the habit of posting both peak and average. Peak is a 2.5 modifier but average is about 2.2 in normal battles and 2.0 in short battles.
"ur side wins they will loot your can and getting some faction mods back where a astarte looses almost all its value on poping, so its still cheaper to have the BS." I donÆt agree. My Astarte cost me 106.9 million and so well any replacements. Now I donÆt use T2 turrets but pretending I did and using market prices instead of shopping around for the cheapest price. ThatÆs roughly 12 million for tanking modules + 28 million for T2 weapons. Rounded up lets say 150million for the ship + equipment. That seems far better value then a T2 tanked and weapon battleship.
ôsince his domi is close range i assume, i dont think pottseys shield tanked domi would stand much of a chance agaist most proper fitted BS. only thing its got is the ability to zap lots of cap well 80% or more close range ships have a heavy injecter on so that isnt gona be a problem!ö Your right it is close range, well it works well up to 25.2km but I prefer to be closer so turret tracking missÆs me. One heavy injector doesnÆt do much as youÆre getting 800cap every 15seconds from the injector but losing 600cap every 6 seconds from the Energy DestabilizerÆs and 3 seconds before the Energy DestabilizerÆs hit and 3 after they hit your hit by Nos. Depending on how well I stagger the modules you only get roughly a 3 second window to use cap before being out again and having to wait for your next boost cycle. ItÆs very effective in 1v1 matches.
ItÆs not just the ability to zap cap fast the shields alone on the worst resistance have an effective 32,604 hitpoints.
_________________________________________________ Nominate famous people in Eve who had an impact on you. |
Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.04.19 17:20:00 -
[109]
Originally by: KilROCK
Originally by: Gronsak
the problem is killrock with my b-thron, i only loose about 1 per 6months :P
It has to do with the fact you're in a corp full of 'yourself'.
what is the name of the corp?
i just made it to get me some jump clones! and atm i cant pvp much cos i got exams starting in 1 weeks time!
also, even in times like this where i can only log in for an hour or two a night. last 5 kills all done within 48h are.
scorp/raven/navy mega/hauler/tempest so its not too bad kilrock eh!
-------------------Sig-----------------------
Decrease blaster CPU useage Decrease Hybrid cap useage Balance all weapon systems DO IT SOON |
Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.04.19 17:24:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Pottsey
"ur side wins they will loot your can and getting some faction mods back where a astarte looses almost all its value on poping, so its still cheaper to have the BS." I donÆt agree. My Astarte cost me 106.9 million and so well any replacements. Now I donÆt use T2 turrets but pretending I did and using market prices instead of shopping around for the cheapest price. ThatÆs roughly 12 million for tanking modules + 28 million for T2 weapons. Rounded up lets say 150million for the ship + equipment. That seems far better value then a T2 tanked and weapon battleship.
it doesnt matter what price you get your astarte for, its the market price that counts!
its like those morons that mine their own minerals and consider it free.
to point it out, you could sell your astarte for 200mil isk, so you do loose 200mil isk - insurance no matter what price u get it for.
you could sell your astarte for 200mil and buy 100mils worth of afaction gear and fit a megathron to be better than a astarte.
just becase you get something at cost, it doesnt mean that is its value!
to further press the point, say u get deimos for 15mil isk, you can sell that for 175mils, and spend 150 mils buying faction mods ect to pimp up a blasterthron.
you loose isk value of market, no matter what price u get a mod for!
-------------------Sig-----------------------
Decrease blaster CPU useage Decrease Hybrid cap useage Balance all weapon systems DO IT SOON |
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Celesta Croft
Caldari Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.08.11 13:56:00 -
[111]
Pottsey, you should just start fraps'ing some of your fights and post the videos. Its a lot harder for the non-believers and close minded folks to accept what your saying when they are able to see it in action. Folks sometimes have a hard time wrapping their heads around the numbers dropped on the forums.
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Loka
Gallente adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.08.11 14:03:00 -
[112]
Well i went once against a Vulture and a Thorax in my Blasterthron. Well i died, with the Vulture alive at 10% shield. Probably a 1vs1 would be very close, but definitfly i got respect of thos little toys. _________________________ Iam back
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Imhotep Khem
Vortex.
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Posted - 2006.08.11 19:14:00 -
[113]
Potsey, who says you have to reach your peak? Damange is bursty, especially artillery. You can get knocked right past that peak with a large volley and never achieve that rate the entire fight.
Active tanker also enjoys this passive recharging. Furthermore, an active tanker can maintain the peak rate longer since he can boost at the right time to keep him there. Of course his peak is lower, but he can do more to stay there than a passive tanker.
There may be a certain number of midslots that turns a passive tanker into better than an active tanker. Maybe Minmatar just don't get that number of mids. I have never seen a better overall passive tanking setup except on the new Jaguar. ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle |
Pottsey
Gallente Dissonance Corp Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.08.13 09:47:00 -
[114]
Edited by: Pottsey on 13/08/2006 09:52:35 Edited by: Pottsey on 13/08/2006 09:48:49 ôDamange is bursty, especially artillery. You can get knocked right past that peak with a large volley and never achieve that rate the entire fight.ö I did extensive testing and that pretty much never happens 1v1. Also itÆs not peak you need to knock it past you need to knock it below 15%. Your right in that you never achieve peak rate during a fight but not for the reason you think. That reason is 1v1 no ship can break your tank or do enough damage to get your shields lower enough so that high HP regen activates. So you hover around 50% or higher shields with a lower but stable HP regen.
Passive tanks heal every second and when you do volleys for burst damage you have a long period with no damage hitting you. That time is usually more then enough to gain back what you lost. What youÆre forgetting is passive tanks have very high hitpoints which when added with high resistance way over 80% often in the 90%+ area artillery burst is not going knock you down more then 1 or 2% if that. Also youÆre at peak or very close to peak for a good amount of your shield regen, so to have a noticeable impact you would have to knock a good 15% off the shield in 1 volly. ThatÆs not going happen unless or 2 or perhaps 3 v1.
Burst damage does hurt of passive tank more then other firing methods but itÆs not the end of the world.
EDIT:If its not 1v1 and your in a group your tank strength shoots up massively as you get 15% Hitpoint boost from mindlink, 10% hitpoint boost from the group skill and a large resistance boost from warfare links. Forgot what it is on the Vulture but its more then 25% resistance from the links.
ôFurthermore, an active tanker can maintain the peak rate longer since he can boost at the right time to keep him there.ö The thing is on the ships we ara talking about the passive tank is so strong you donÆt need any boosts to stay at peak rate. You never hit peak because no ship 1v1 gets you lower enough to get near peak.
Passive shield tanking guide, click here. |
Imhotep Khem
Vortex.
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Posted - 2006.08.15 01:47:00 -
[115]
Right well then like I suggested, perhaps Minmatar do not have enough mid slots in general to produce a good passive shield tanker. ____ "If your not dyin' your not tryin'." "Are you prepared to go all the way, Alexi?" DuGalle |
Fuujin
Hadean Drive Yards
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Posted - 2006.08.15 02:02:00 -
[116]
Someone please tlel me gronsak is someones alt posting on here for comedic value.........please......... _______________
The sword has to be more than a simple weapon; it has to be an answer to life's questions
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fkingfurious
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Posted - 2006.08.15 02:08:00 -
[117]
Command ships are fearsome.
I took a gank neutra thron, ( Neutrons 2's, void ammo, 3 damage mods and a couple of plates ) against a corpies Sleipnir running 220 t2 and an XL booster shield tank with an injector.
I couldnt get thru his tank before my cap was flat.
And Nighthawk, Claymore and Vulture are even tuffer.............
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Shin Ra
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2006.08.15 02:18:00 -
[118]
Rage torp raven with TPs would kill a CS before he had time to turn on his hardners.
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jamesw
Omniscient Order Verisum Family
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Posted - 2006.08.15 03:01:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Ithildin
Megathron: 7x Electron II, 2x mag stab, 2x Rep IIs. Does about 791 dps. Astarte: 8x Neutron II, 2x mag stabs, 2x Rep IIs. Does about 847 dps. In order to tank the Megathron's damage, the Command Ship will need Kinetic and Thermal resistances of 87.8% or better, which is attainable.
I don't mean to poke holes in your theory, but a well set up mega in that config does well over 1000dps.
Unless of course he doesn't use drones --
NEW Vid: Domi For the Win! |
Kldraina
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Posted - 2006.08.15 06:59:00 -
[120]
Just thought I'd add that the 15% bonus to shields from the mind-link replaces the gang bonus. So you just get 15% with it in a gang (though you only need one gang member to have it).
Also, I know that if I had the skills for a Vulture, I could easily tank 600dps with a passive shield tank while in a gang using T2 resistance amps, Large shield extender 2s, shield power relays, and a shield resist gang module. That's assuming they hit my lowest resist. So I can easily believe that a more specialized tank, or one with faction gear could stand up to most BSs without having their tank broken. |
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