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Gori Thane
Takahashi Syndicate Takahashi Alliance
0
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Posted - 2014.02.28 23:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
When Retribution 1.1 was released, players were finally given an official method of hi-sec dueling in lieu of of can flipping. The banner given to dueling by CCP was "A proper 1 on 1 for the modern pilot." The idea of dueling is not to eliminate risk of losing your ship or even your pod, but to create an avenue for players to be able to choose their engagements and to know what they kind of fight they are getting into, which would be a nice alternative to engagements in low or null sec space where you may be tricked into thinking you have a fair engagement only to have a fleet warp in on you.
Problem #1: Contrary to the advertised premise of an "honorable duel" between two (or more if multiple simultaneous duels are accepted) pilots, players may bring in assistance via logistical support and thus destroying any chance of a fair fight and they can use logistical support both without agreement from the other dueling pilot(s) OR retaliation! Why don't pilots receive a suspect flag for RRing a ship in a duel? Any retaliation against any ships providing logistical support would actually result in CONCORD intervention! Several people told me that I was wrong about there being no suspect flag, so here is a link to previous forum thread that pointed out the same issue - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=250522
An example of how current mechanics allow for completely unfair combat: I undock in a frigate from Jita and have a pilot (also in a frigate) issue me a duel challenge. I unwisely accept to the supposed terms of a "frig 1v1". The enemy pilot then immediately has a nearby logi transport shields with a medium or large remote shield booster. Obviously my frigate would never be able to brake a tank supported by logi, so I never stood a chance. I never got a window pop up telling me "Eveplayer002" would like to join the duel and asking me to accept or decline. I never even got the chance to fire upon the logi when he gave reps. CONCORD never intervened. I just died.
Problem #2: A far more common issue with the current dueling system's premise of a "fair fight" come from the ability of pilots to dock after accepting a duel. This leads to two common abuses. The first is that pilots will issue a duel and once their target accepts, they immediately dock and then quickly undock in a completely different (and often much larger and/or more expensive) ship and then proceed to quickly destroy the unsuspecting pilot who thought he or she as agreeing to a duel with so-called even odds. The second, less grievous way pilots abuse the ability to dock with an active duel is that they will agree to a duel and engage, but once the fight tips against their favor, they will wait out the combat timer and then simply dock.
Obviously, there is basically no such thing as an actual "fair" fight with perfectly even odds of each side winning or losing. I'm not asking for that. If one or both sides are in fleets with OGB's, so be it. Perhaps look up the other side's corp/alliance info or kb's first if you're worried about that. Perhaps one side has a super shiney fit or a really unusual fit and you never stood a chance with your fit. Such is the nature of Eve. But the idea of a duel is that you can agree to a fight and when you agree you have a general idea of what you're getting yourself into. If any number of people can join one side of a duel in the form of remote repping, then there's not much of a point to dueling besides stuffing the killboards in the case of the side with the logi.
My proposed solution for problem 1 is to simply make any logistical support illegal unless a duel request has been issued by the logistical pilot and accepted by the enemy pilot. This would allow the opposing pilot to know what he's getting into and also for him or her to retaliate! I think is solution is very intuitive and I"m at a loss as to why this isn't the way dueling was from the start. A second option would be to allow logistical support without permission from the opposing pilot(s), but then to allow the opposing pilot(s) to retaliate against the ship providing logistical support as soon as aid is given to an opposing pilot in a duel. I think this second option is by far less preferable, but I wanted to give more than one solution.
My proposed solution to problem 2 would be to start a combat timer as soon as a duel is accepted, making it impossible for a dishonorable duelist to dock and return with a larger ship. A second solution would be to immediately end the duel when one or more pilots dock. Again I like the first option better. As far as stopping pilots from waiting out the combat timer and docking when the tide turns against them...I"m not so sure this needs to be fixed. Waiting out the combat timer does give the other pilot ample time to destroy you before you dock.
Please let me know what you think and I welcome any and all additional ideas for solutions for making the honorable dueling system a little more honorable!
-Gori Thane |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19727
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Posted - 2014.03.01 00:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
Gori Thane wrote:Any retaliation against any ships providing logistical support would actually result in CONCORD intervention! Several people told me that I was wrong about there being no suspect flag, so here is a link to previous forum thread that pointed out the same issue - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=250522 No, you do not get CONCORDed. If you actually read the thread, you'll notice that it does not say that the logis don't get flagged as suspect. They do GÇö any kind of interference with a limited engagement (which is what a duel is) results in a suspect flag.
If they don't, you should bug report it.
Since your entire suggestion rests on a misunderstanding of the mechanics and their purpose, as mentioned in your original thread, it is pretty much completely invalid. It tries to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Gori Thane
Takahashi Syndicate Takahashi Alliance
0
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Posted - 2014.03.01 01:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
Thank you for pointing our my error, Tippia. I did go back and examine that thread. With my instance there must have been a bug. However, the entirety of my post did not rely on my mistake of thinking that there was no suspect flag for RRing someone in a duel. First, I do think that upgrading a suspect flag to a criminal flag would improve the dueling system. Secondly, the 2nd problem I mentioned is not affected at all by my misunderstanding of the suspect flag for RRing as RRing has nothing to do it it. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1139
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Posted - 2014.03.01 02:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
whomever told u duels were meant to be fair fights lied.
all they do is create a limited engagement between two pilots. everything after is sandbox and fair game 'such is the nature of eve' as u say. CCP were well aware that they created duels such that RR can still happen, though they go suspect. working as intended.
what u can try to do is get that person in fleet with u first, and then warp to a safe before u start the duel. its not perfect, but at least u have more time to react when u see him drop fleet.
would be cool for a few reasons if logi turned up on killboards though. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
1827
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Posted - 2014.03.01 02:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
Canflip fights were never fair. Why would duels be any fair than their canflip-fight ancestors? |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
403
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Posted - 2014.03.01 03:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
If you get into a fair fight, at least one of you has already screwed up.
Now, that's not to say that I'm opposed to a fair dueling system. I have no problem with it in concept. I'm just pointing out that one has never existed before, and that fairness exists nowhere in EVE. Being surprised that duels are not necessarily fair is definately a 'fool me once...' situation. - Mission Overhaul - Bridging the PVP / PVE Gap - -áIf the game stops teaching people to fear lowsec, maybe people will start going there? |
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
352
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Posted - 2014.03.01 11:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
Gori Thane wrote:fair fight.
[snippety snip]
honorable duel
Here we go again Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene. |
Gori Thane
Takahashi Syndicate Takahashi Alliance
0
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Posted - 2014.03.01 16:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
To me, the fact that I have to private convo someone first and hope they don't reject a random person convo invite, and then agree to meet a planet or somewhere just so I have decent chance of 1v1 feels pretty broken. I don't see any downsides of creating at least the addition of an option of duels to be an avenue for fair fights. I think it'd be an excellent learning opportunity for players trying to learn pvp and the art of the 1v1. If a lot players feel strongly that a fair fight is "wrong" for Eve, then I'd say keep the dueling system as is, but why not add an alternate dueling system that doesn't allow for docking and coming back in a larger ship. And possibly give a criminal flag for the stupid RR game. I like options, I think a lot of people do. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1142
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 19:09:00 -
[9] - Quote
i hear fw is great for 1v1's. u dnt have to join fw, just hang around that space.
if u find ppl who are honourable within the sandbox, great. but eve is about the ultimate freedom of being anything u want, even unhonourable, anywhere at anytime. creating mechanics that mean ur opponent can not be dishonourable is yet another un-sandbox, themepark, safety system eve can do without.
edit- imagine if the mechanic u want was introduced. ppl who want 1v1's would have a guaranteed way to 1v1. and those that want to use underhanded tactics will say 'nah, lets just do a typical duel'. it becomes pretty obvious, and completely defeats the point of being underhanded and sneaky. so there is no point where ur thinking: is he going to honour this, or is he going to screw me over. which is the very fun that is eve. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Your Dad Naked
State War Academy Caldari State
134
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Posted - 2014.03.01 21:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Gori Thane wrote:Any retaliation against any ships providing logistical support would actually result in CONCORD intervention! Several people told me that I was wrong about there being no suspect flag, so here is a link to previous forum thread that pointed out the same issue - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=250522 No, you do not get CONCORDed. If you actually read the thread, you'll notice that it does not say that the logis don't get flagged as suspect. They do GÇö any kind of interference with a limited engagement (which is what a duel is) results in a suspect flag. If they don't, you should bug report it. Since your entire suggestion rests on a misunderstanding of the mechanics and their purpose, as mentioned in your original thread, it is pretty much completely invalid. It tries to solve a problem that doesn't actually exist. His point is clearly that there is no mechanism in which you can 1v1 a stranger and be certain it will remain a 1v1 engagement without any outside interference. It's a fair point but perhaps harder to see if you're intent on simply nitpicking at small portions of a post. |
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Gori Thane
Takahashi Syndicate Takahashi Alliance
0
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Posted - 2014.03.01 22:07:00 -
[11] - Quote
Your Dad Naked wrote: His point is clearly that there is no mechanism in which you can 1v1 a stranger and be certain it will remain a 1v1 engagement without any outside interference. It's a fair point but perhaps harder to see if you're intent on simply nitpicking at small portions of a post.
Exactly, Your Dad Naked (wow what a great name). I think there should be a, as in just ONE, method of being able to get an assured 1v1 versus a stranger. That would provide a valuable way to practice combat for new players, solo players, or players who don't always want to wait for a corpmate to log on and be available.
If you want the excitement of knowing that your opponent can bring in superior forces and wipe you out, ultimately that is what all of lowsec and nullsec is for. Even high sec wars can give you that. But currently there is not even one option for a guaranteed 1v1. It's not like there wouldn't be any risk in a guaranteed 1v1, you can always loose your ship and even your pod. I seriously think it would add a lot more to the game than it would harm it to have a solitary way to get a good old one versus one. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
4931
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 22:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
I don't believe that mechanical enforcement of "fairness" should be a thing. It's smacks of "instancing" and, to be perfectly honest, there should ALWAYS be a way to tip the odds in your favor outside of mere ships and modules.
Just as in the real world... fairness should never be guaranteed. If you want to 1v1 then you should first trust (or find your own ways to ensure/enforce that trust) that the person isn't going to shoot you at pace #7 when you "agreed" that you would draw and shoot at pace #10.
That said...
Gori Thane wrote:but why not add an alternate dueling system that doesn't allow for docking and coming back in a larger ship. And possibly give a criminal flag for the stupid RR game. I like options, I think a lot of people do. For the same reason why Arenas are opposed; if you provide a "fairer"/"safer" alternative for people to get their PvP rocks off then they will automatically gravitate towards that option and diminish the alternatives.
Also... Logistics that rep someone you are dueling ALREADY become "suspects" (meaning ANYONE can shoot them without CONCORD interference). Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Gori Thane
Takahashi Syndicate Takahashi Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.01 22:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
While this game is known being realistic for having risk in everything, it is still just a game. Games are for people to have fun. If a lot of people would have fun with a way to have a guaranteed 1v1, then why not add that option? If you think it's fun to fight in an arena where unfair fights are possible and abound, go everywhere else in Eve. =)
P.S. It's not as if garunteed duels would be adding a risk-free aspect of Eve and thus going against the game's founding principle! These duels are to the DEATH! haha |
Phaade
The Lonetrek Militia Rapidus Incitus Pactum
149
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Posted - 2014.03.02 00:15:00 -
[14] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:whomever told u duels were meant to be fair fights lied.
all they do is create a limited engagement between two pilots. everything after is sandbox and fair game 'such is the nature of eve' as u say. CCP were well aware that they created duels such that RR can still happen, though they go suspect. working as intended.
what u can try to do is get that person in fleet with u first, and then warp to a safe before u start the duel. its not perfect, but at least u have more time to react when u see him drop fleet.
would be cool for a few reasons if logi turned up on killboards though.
That's not a duel.
A duel, in human history, has almost always been honored as one verse one.
Your thinking is flawed.
A Duel is a fight between two (2) individuals. Nothing more, nothing less.
Though CCP is not smart enough to comprehend this, I suspect. |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
651
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 05:16:00 -
[15] - Quote
Gori Thane wrote:If you think it's fun to fight in an arena where unfair fights are possible and abound, go everywhere else in Eve. =) EVE is everywhere in EVE. If you change this, you will break it.
Remove insurance. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1242
|
Posted - 2014.03.02 10:50:00 -
[16] - Quote
Duels are working just fine. The Tears Must Flow |
TehCloud
Mastercard.
218
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Posted - 2014.03.02 12:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
You just have to duel in the right places. Come to Dodixie, the place where neutral Logi gets blapped. My Condor costs less than that module! |
Hairpins Blueprint
Paragraph 22 Aureus Alae
35
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Posted - 2014.03.02 13:51:00 -
[18] - Quote
the are also the BumPing machs .... i think after duel is set there should be special grid spawned in system with ac. gate, and only the two pilots can use it. so there can duel inside ith third party ... |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
993
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 17:38:00 -
[19] - Quote
In addition to not requiring can flips to activate aggression, CCP changed the already existing system to make it easier for friends to join in and make the fight unfair.
OP, I think you've the wrong idea of what CCP considers balanced. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!! |
Batelle
HOMELE55
2037
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 19:08:00 -
[20] - Quote
Since you posted the same thread over here I will paste my response from the other thread:
Gori Thane wrote:When Retribution 1.1 was released, players were finally given an official method of hi-sec dueling in lieu of of can flipping. The banner given to dueling by CCP was "A proper 1 on 1 for the modern pilot." The idea of dueling is not to eliminate risk of losing your ship or even your pod, but to create an avenue for players to be able to choose their engagements and to know what they kind of fight they are getting into, which would be a nice alternative to engagements in low or null sec space where you may be tricked into thinking you have a fair engagement only to have a fleet warp in on you.
WRONG.
The duel system was created so people could get aggression to shoot each other without concord interference, and without making themselves global suspects.
It was never intended to prevent people from dishonoring 1v1s, whatever that banner may have said.
Everything is working as intended, there is no problem here. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
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Gori Thane
Takahashi Syndicate Takahashi Alliance
3
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Posted - 2014.03.03 19:16:00 -
[21] - Quote
Mara Pahrdi, so you are suggesting that creating a dueling mechanic that allow for only 1v1's and thus gives valuable training and enjoyment to any pilots who wish to utilize it would somehow affect all of Eve and not only affect, but destroy it? I think quite the opposite; I think that having a medium for new pilots to learn the basics of 1v1 pvp and for all pilots to enjoy if they choose it would not harm the Eve universe, but would encourage newer pilots to stay in the game and pilots new to pvp to venture out into lowsec and null sec once they attain a grasp on the basics.
Someone mentioned earlier in the original thread I started in general discussion, that leaving the current iteration of dueling and creating a 2nd option for pure 1v1's and no cheap tricks with station docking or outside interference would result in pilots knowing that engaging the the first form of dueling knowing for certain that the other side plans on not fight fair, thus destroying the lure of classic Eve combat. This would also probably result in everyone choosing the new form of dueling and the current version would never get used. While I am unsure why we need an option for unfair combat in highsec when we can always just go to lowsec or null for that, I did think of a possible solution that would provide a sort of harmony for the two modes of dueling should a 2nd mode be introduced.
If a new pure 1v1 dueling system is added to the current one, then incentive to use the traditional mode of dueling could be provided through disallowing pilots in fleets to enter a pure 1v1 duel. This would stop pilots from using OGB's in a pure 1v1, thus making it an even more even playing field while providing another motive for traditional dueling besides playing station games or bringing in RR. Additional inventive to engage in the traditional form of dueling could be provided by instituting an exclusive betting system not available for the "safer" pure 1v1 mode. If a pilot invites you to a traditional duel, they can also enter an isk value they wish to bet on outcome of the duel. The other pilot would then have the option to hit "accept terms" and then both pilot's would receive a reduction from their wallets in the amount bet and both bets would be returned to the wallet of the pilot who destroys the ship of the other. If the other pilot does not wish to bet, he pay select "agree to duel without bet" and then the duel would immediately commence. If the other pilot wishes to bet a different amount, they may type in a counter offer in the dueling window. This window would be similar to the current trade window and would only go through once both pilots have entered the same value ranging from 0 to the wallet total of the poorest pilot. If the dueling timer runs out before one ship has been destroyed, then both bets are returned to each player's wallet.
If a 2nd pure 1v1 mode was added as well as these incentives, then I think there would be a harmony between both modes: the classic Eve benefit-to-risk ratio would be maintained. If you wish to bet on a pure 1v1 duel, you will have to do so manually and you will have to trust the other pilot to honor your betting arrangement and give you your isk if you win. If you want to be guaranteed that you will receive your bet should you win or if you wish to use OGB's/fleet bonuses, invite your target to a traditional duel, but at the risk of having your enemy use more unsavory tactics. |
Batelle
HOMELE55
2038
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 19:32:00 -
[22] - Quote
Gori Thane wrote:Mara Pahrdi, so you are suggesting that creating a dueling mechanic that allow for only 1v1's and thus gives valuable training and enjoyment to any pilots who wish to utilize it would somehow affect all of Eve and not only affect, but destroy it?
No, it merely has no place here. Plus it would require screwing with crimewatch a bunch unnecessarily.
Gori Thane wrote:I think quite the opposite; I think that having a medium for new pilots to learn the basics of 1v1 pvp and for all pilots to enjoy if they choose it would not harm the Eve universe, but would encourage newer pilots to stay in the game and pilots new to pvp to venture out into lowsec and null sec once they attain a grasp on the basics.
If they want 1v1 pvp they should duel someone they trust, with someone willing to teach them. The current mechanics (either by joining a corp or using the existing duel system) are more than sufficient for this. Plus there is SiSi, where screwing with someone else's duel is not allowed. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1143
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 19:38:00 -
[23] - Quote
Phaade wrote: That's not a duel.
A duel, in human history, has almost always been honored as one verse one.
Your thinking is flawed.
A Duel is a fight between two (2) individuals. Nothing more, nothing less.
Though CCP is not smart enough to comprehend this, I suspect.
bad troll be bad
ur ability to read is flawed. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
522
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 23:02:00 -
[24] - Quote
There is nothing stopping you from doing this now.. after all what is more honorable than the honor system. Just post your rules... and set up the honor point system with guards against abuse in the form of objective witnesses testimony if necessary. -á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á-
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
Gori Thane
Takahashi Syndicate Takahashi Alliance
3
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Posted - 2014.03.03 23:12:00 -
[25] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:There is nothing stopping you from doing this now.. after all what is more honorable than the honor system. Just post your rules... and set up the honor point system with guards against abuse in the form of objective witnesses testimony if necessary.
That is extremely inconvenient and really isn't a realistic method. Please forget the word honor. Obviously honor cannot be forced on anyone, that is counteractive. What I am proposing is the addition of a system that could be a lot of fun and a valuable resource. Also, if the betting system I proposed were to be implemented, there would remain a large incentive to use the old dueling system as you could make isk from pvp. The solution, as I"ve come up with it thus far, would have a dueling system for people who just want good old 1v1's as well as dueling system for people who want a little more risk and potential rewards. I think both dueling options would be a lot of fun for players of all kinds!
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