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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
47
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 20:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
First, a disclaimer:
- The real-time training concept is great - The 'order of magnitude' of the current training time feels right too. It gives you time to learn to fly stuff and makes that new ship class that you've waited weeks/months to get into all the more rewarding. It also gives progression in EVE that 'epic' pace that is pretty cool.
But...
Why not speed up things just a little bit? Say, 5% to 10% max.
To make it fair for everybody, all active accounts would receive an SP bonus of exactly ( 1 / 0.95-0.9 -1 = ) 5.26%-11.11% of their current SP.
So all EVE players, new and old, would be able to do a little bit more stuff in the game. A new ship class, a bonus to the preferred weapon system, whatever.
My assumption here is: a bit more opportunites for all = a bit more fun for all. And since it would be percentage-based, it shouldn't really make things easier for new players at the expense of the vets. The vets would get a hefty SP bonus indeed! That they could maybe use to more easily kill that HAC that the younger player just got into a few weeks earlier than before... Win-win maybe?
Wouldn't we all love this? Wouldn't it also boost active player numbers ('hey lemme go try that brand new toy')?
Final disclaimer: I know most threads are whiney these days. I'm not complaining, I'm a patient dude and I have tons of fun flying just frigs and dessies atm. Just thought this could be reasonable and a nice present for every EVE player |
Bernie Nator
4U Services Inc. Upholders
976
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Posted - 2014.03.03 20:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
Buy implants.
Or, be patient and learn what you can do without those modules/ships. Eve isn't about instant gratification. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19784
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Posted - 2014.03.03 20:51:00 -
[3] - Quote
Nah. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
unidenify
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
65
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Posted - 2014.03.03 20:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
implants help (no idea if tutorial make mention about implants, but if they don't. Then I recommend they include this stuff)
not mention there are special booster or pill for newbie that temporary boost their training time |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
4947
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Posted - 2014.03.03 20:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
The justify a change, you need a compelling reason. "It feels slow" isn't a reason and "it might be more fun" also isn't a reason.
There isn't a day that goes by that I don't look at EVE mon and want to yell, "TRAIN FASTER damn it" because I want to do things with the characters that are training (for example, I'm training up a low sec lvl 5 mission running team, 23 days to go till they have the skill I need them to have to pull it off).
But the "slow" training time makes getting the result mean something. The current training times holds a player accountable to himself for his decisions about what to train and when to remap. I don't see a compelling reason to speed things up. |
GreenSeed
950
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Posted - 2014.03.03 20:56:00 -
[6] - Quote
the rate is fine, given the absolutely ZERO risk in gaining it. unless you are stupid and like to pvp with a set of +5s...
would be nice to get all the way to +7s, but say, you must have a "training slot" available on a POS module of sorts. that way you are forced to join/create a corporation, and also forced and rewarded by having and defending a POS.
so long as the POS is standing and enough slots are available every character on that corp can benefit from the training bonus.
i don't think its a terrible idea, and training implants need to die. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
378
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Posted - 2014.03.03 21:21:00 -
[7] - Quote
Just rememeber the old EVE adage that 20% of training gets you 80% of the benefits. Only train to V if it leads to something like a new ship/module, opens up a new skill or, very rarely, the skill is stupidly OP (did I hear someone mutter Drone Interfacing?) .
More importantly do not get focussed on "bigger is better" and obsessed with skill training. New players can get far to stuck on accumulating SP and struggling to qualify for something like a Maurauder when the most fun in the game often comes from things like interceptors that you can feasibly fly within 2 weeks of subbing your trial account. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
47
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Posted - 2014.03.03 21:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:The justify a change, you need a compelling reason. "It feels slow" isn't a reason and "it might be more fun" also isn't a reason. The reason would be: people having some more tools at their disposal would lead to people doing more things in EVE would lead to EVE gameplay being more fun for all (assuming having fun is the main objective in a videogame).
Not stating that it's a 'compelling' reason, of course, that's up to personal opinion.
Jenn aSide wrote:(for example, I'm training up a low sec lvl 5 mission running team, 23 days to go till they have the skill I need them to have to pull it off). In your own example, other people could gank your team 1 or 2 days earlier. Multiply this for every EVE player doing new things more often.
Please note, it's not about me or you training a bit faster, it would be everybody training faster and doing more things - preferably nasty things to eachother, obviously.
Tippia wrote:The formula for SP requirements to reach any given level of a skill is is 2^(2.5 +ù [lvl -1]) +ù Rank +ù 250. Just found this in an old thread. So another way to put it is: why x 250? Why not x 235? Why not give that 6% bonus to everybody to give EVE a little 'shake up'? |
Spurty
V0LTA Triumvirate.
1239
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Posted - 2014.03.03 21:27:00 -
[9] - Quote
You would absolutely BOmB the character bizarre market *signature is not allowed on the EVE Online forums* |
Nimrod vanHall
Martyr's Vengence Nulli Secunda
70
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Posted - 2014.03.03 21:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
unidenify wrote:implants help (no idea if tutorial make mention about implants, but if they don't. Then I recommend they include this stuff)
not mention there are special booster or pill for newbie that temporary boost their training time
The tutorial gives 1 +1 implant as a reward. I think its a perception one but I'm not shure.
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
47
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Posted - 2014.03.03 21:42:00 -
[11] - Quote
Bernie Nator wrote:good advice to train faster and to make better use of the skills you already have
unidenify wrote:good advice to train faster
Hasikan Miallok wrote:good advice to train more effectively and to make better use of the skills you already have
Nimrod vanHall wrote:good advice to train faster
Thanks for the advice guys, but I'd like to clarify: I wasn't asking how to train faster/more effectively or how to have fun with the skills I have.
I wanted to ask: wouldn't EVE be more fun for everybody - and still remaining pretty much the challenging game we all love - if we had a slight 5-10% boost both to current SP and to new SP progression?
Or in other words: wouldn't you enjoy a slight skill boost? Remember 5-10% boost means you'd still have to train many many months for that Archon... still not 'instant gratification' by any measure. |
DaReaper
Net 7 The Last Brigade
206
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Posted - 2014.03.03 21:49:00 -
[12] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Bernie Nator wrote:good advice to train faster and to make better use of the skills you already have unidenify wrote:good advice to train faster Hasikan Miallok wrote:good advice to train more effectively and to make better use of the skills you already have Nimrod vanHall wrote:good advice to train faster Thanks for the advice guys, but I'd like to clarify: I wasn't asking how to train faster/more effectively or how to have fun with the skills I have. I wanted to ask: wouldn't EVE be more fun for everybody - and still remaining pretty much the challenging game we all love - if we had a slight 5-10% boost both to current SP and to new SP progression? Or in other words: wouldn't you enjoy a slight skill boost? Remember 5-10% boost means you'd still have to train many many months for that Archon... still not 'instant gratification' by any measure.
and the answers you have recived is 'no'. There are already systems in place to help you train faster. Utalize the tools that are there.
When you reach 10 years you will look at 45 days skill's and shrug as its something to fill the time.
And I have never used a single implant on this char... so that should tell you something.
And eve used to have a 'faster training' it was called learning skills. But ccp removed it to make the game more fun. It doenslt need any more reduction |
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
3012
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Posted - 2014.03.03 21:50:00 -
[13] - Quote
Malcanis' Law: "Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of GÇÿnew playersGÇÖ, that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players."
New players benefit: Can get into {shiny ship} much faster!
This can be a counter-benefit by messing with the deliberate slow progression and dumping big stuff on people not ready for it. Believe it or not, hopping into the biggest, most "oh wow!" ship is not a way to success when people in small ships who know what they're doing can crap on your thunder.
Veteran players benefit:
- Easy-mode training of alts
- Character bazaar price crash (not a benefit for some)
- T3 skill point loss more meaningless
- Less dedication/investment in training high-tier skills to V
Vets do not need all this help. I say this being a 5-year player who would absolutely love training stuff faster. As much as I'd enjoy it, it would simply be bad for Eve.
So...
No. Skill training is fine. Rifterlings - small gang frigate PvP - lowsec pirate operation, newbie-friendly, free ship program; Join today! www.rifterlings.com
Accidentally The Whole Frigate (blog) - Learning how to pew pew, one loss at a time - www.thewholefrigate.com |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
500
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Posted - 2014.03.03 21:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Or in other words: wouldn't you enjoy a slight skill boost? Remember 5-10% boost means you'd still have to train many many months for that Archon... still not 'instant gratification' by any measure. I'm sure many people would say yes, but then not agree that it should happen.
That would be my view. Obviously training faster seems initially to allow you to get into more bling faster, but I still haven't seen any solid reason for a value of 5-10%. That just seems arbitrary.
On the flip side, training is a process that leads to great satisfaction when milestones are reached. Changing the training speed will also change the way reaching those milestones is perceived.
So there is a balance between speed and outcome that you need to consider, which hasn't currently been covered. eve-bazaar - I'm not associated with them, but support it as a worthwhile service |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
4950
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 21:56:00 -
[15] - Quote
Petrus Blackshell wrote:Malcanis' Law: "Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of GÇÿnew playersGÇÖ, that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players." New players benefit: Can get into {shiny ship} much faster! This can be a counter-benefit by messing with the deliberate slow progression and dumping big stuff on people not ready for it. Believe it or not, hopping into the biggest, most "oh wow!" ship is not a way to success when people in small ships who know what they're doing can crap on your thunder. Veteran players benefit:
- Easy-mode training of alts
- Character bazaar price crash (not a benefit for some)
- T3 skill point loss more meaningless
- Less dedication/investment in training high-tier skills to V
Vets do not need all this help. I say this being a 5-year player who would absolutely love training stuff faster. As much as I'd enjoy it, it would simply be bad for Eve. So... No. Skill training is fine.
Well said.
That's something that is usually missing from the people who propose ideas: careful consideration of the potential downsides. "Easy-mode training of alts" is one such point, people are already complaining about how easy it is to make a dessie ganking alt, this idea would make it easier.
No compelling reason (ie, it's not fixing something that is broke or adding anything really new) plus too many poetntial unintended consequences makes this a ver bad idea. Not game breakingly bad , but bad, To answer the OPs question, sure, I'd 'like' (for me personally) faster training, but what I like and what the game needs are 2 different things. |
Frank Millar
473
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Posted - 2014.03.03 21:59:00 -
[16] - Quote
I don't think a whole week passed since the last "skill training is too slow / I am never going to catch up / I want all of it NOAW"-thread.
Truly and remarkably terrible. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
47
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 22:00:00 -
[17] - Quote
Spurty wrote:You would absolutely BOmB the character bizarre market I'm not so sure, actually. If you make skill training 5% faster and ALSO give +5% SPs to every existing toon, including the ones on the bazar, I wonder if and how prices would change? An interesting question for the economists, actually...! |
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
1711
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 22:01:00 -
[18] - Quote
They should create skills that help you train skills faster.
Have 2 types:
1 Standard set for each attribute. 1 Advanced set for each attribute.
The standard set can be just Rank 1 skills and the Advanced set can be like Rank 3 skills. Both the Standard and the Advanced would raise the attribute by 1 point.
And then have one skill that affects all five attributes and adds like 2% per level for each level you train, with +10% at Level V.
Would that help with what the OP is looking for? "Grr Kimmi-á Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide
www.eve-radio.com -áJoin Eve Radio channel in game! |
DaReaper
Net 7 The Last Brigade
206
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 22:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
Kimmi Chan wrote:They should create skills that help you train skills faster.
Have 2 types:
1 Standard set for each attribute. 1 Advanced set for each attribute.
The standard set can be just Rank 1 skills and the Advanced set can be like Rank 3 skills. Both the Standard and the Advanced would raise the attribute by 1 point.
And then have one skill that affects all five attributes and adds like 2% per level for each level you train, with +10% at Level V.
Would that help with what the OP is looking for?
they had this... it was called learning skills |
Tollen Gallen
Glory of Reprisal Enterprise
6724
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 22:06:00 -
[20] - Quote
No
I like Missiles. Zimmy Zeta - I f*cking love martinis. the original ones, with gin, not that vodka martini crap. Carmen Electra - You are also on my block list. |
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Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
1711
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 22:07:00 -
[21] - Quote
DaReaper wrote:n.m, just saw what you doing here
"Grr Kimmi-á Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide
www.eve-radio.com -áJoin Eve Radio channel in game! |
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
1711
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 22:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
Tollen Gallen wrote:I like Missiles.
Me too!!!!!
Warhead Upgrades V finishes this week!!!! \o/
"Grr Kimmi-á Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide
www.eve-radio.com -áJoin Eve Radio channel in game! |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
378
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 22:10:00 -
[23] - Quote
To be honest I actually spend more time in one month trained alts than I do in my battleship owning main. Even then my main logs way more time in Assault Frigates and Interceptors than a battleship.
I recently re-ran Bloodstained Stars (its a once every 3 months arc) and despite owning multiple cruisers, battle-cruisers and battleships from pretty much every faction, I redid the whole arc this time in a T1 artie thrasher (admittedly with T2 artillery ) becasue it would be way more fun that way. next time I think I will do it in a Wolf or a Firetail or possible an interceptor.
This game is not WoW and is NOT about accumulating SP as fast as possible. If you really want huge SP just earn or plex some ISK and go to the character bazaar and buy a character with several years training up.
Do not get obsessed with skill training, if you forget to update your skills its not the end of the world, if you go away for a month and unsub for 4 weeks you are not nerfing your character and having a 3 or 4 week train ahead may be a good thing if it means you play the game rather than fiddle the skill queue. |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
2031
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 22:14:00 -
[24] - Quote
Whatever speed training was set at by CCP, some folk would always want it to be faster, because...... This is not a signature. |
Mister Simms
Society for Miner Education
19
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Posted - 2014.03.03 22:26:00 -
[25] - Quote
Another resounding, No!
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Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
1712
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Posted - 2014.03.03 22:41:00 -
[26] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Whatever speed training was set at by CCP, some folk would always want it to be faster, because......
...they suffer from Veruca Salt-ism...
But Daddy!!! I want faster skills nnnnooooooowwwwwwww.....
"Grr Kimmi-á Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide
www.eve-radio.com -áJoin Eve Radio channel in game! |
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
446
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 22:46:00 -
[27] - Quote
I think that we can all agree that my training should be faster but as a general rule training times for everyone else are fine. NBSI shall be the whole of the Law |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
48
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Posted - 2014.03.03 22:59:00 -
[28] - Quote
To everyone that said 'yeah sure I'd enjoy it personally but it would be bad for the game for thoughtful reasons X, Y, Z':
I don't know if I should thank you for your kind feedback or hate you because a community so awesome is yet another reason why EVE will totally screw my social life for many years to come.
One last question if you're still around, do you think:
A) CCP pretty much found the sweetspot to balance gratification/fun/challenge/lasting appeal with the current training times
or
B) Maybe they didn't but changing things is just too risky and ultimately not worth it (even if - say - training times were actually too fast from a 'gameplay balancing' perspective)
To the only dude that couldn't bother to actually read past the topic: yes, you're right, every single time I solo kill someone with 5 times my SP I sit back and think. 'darn, I am never going to catch up'. |
Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
130
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 23:11:00 -
[29] - Quote
Perhaps some individual skills can use mulitipkier adjustments, but I cant think of any offhand.
Excdpt perhaps the difference between T2 and T3 Cruiser training time, for example, seems off to me personally (but this is perhaps prejudiced by how diverse T3 Cruisers are and multiplied by the fact that thet are also really good at any number of those diverse functions, therefore not related to skilling time, but rather the effectiveness of the two classes in comparison to each other.) |
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
446
|
Posted - 2014.03.03 23:18:00 -
[30] - Quote
To answer your question on the whole CCP have hit the right balance with training. The current system works well and is probably one of those rarest of things in EvE, reasonably fair. NBSI shall be the whole of the Law |
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