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jgjkgkjgjkg
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Posted - 2006.04.21 05:59:00 -
[1]
Contrary to CCP's belief, large lazers use way more energy than a projectile. Way more energy. If the game strived to be accurate, then one large lazer blast would drain an appocolypse's capacitor in a single shot. Crystals shmitsals, the damage behind lazers isn't in some stupid lense, its the amount of energy focused by the lense.
Theres no reason that lazer turrets shouldn't use batteries. Its almost commical how it runs off the ships capacitor and the ship is still able to do other things.
The way I see it, lazer turrets should have their own reactors, just like real lazers. They require way more energy than a battery can afford, so each turret should be comprised of a reactor and focusing lense, of course in one turret unit.
Ammo could be in provided by containers of antimatter (antimatter is the most efficient power source, ever), and instead of firing rounds, would consume a percentage of the container, and upon reaching zero percent, you'd have to reload.
I dont see why CCP didnt do this. Its not fair for some guns to not use expensive ass ammo while others do. Not only that its completely unrealistic. Fix please.
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Ghyran
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Posted - 2006.04.21 06:05:00 -
[2]
point 1: Amarr guns only do one type of dammage 2: if you look on the crystals they have a volitility lvl and percentage. look at the t2 crystals aswell, you only get about 100 shots with them before they wear out and we pay how much for them compared for 1000 units of t2 ammo? 3: All ships get a base resistance to Amarr race dammage EM 60% and minmitar with base of 70%... do we really need to nerf them further? enough said.
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The ArchWarder
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Posted - 2006.04.21 06:06:00 -
[3]
Bah! alt posting 4tl
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2006.04.21 06:09:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Ghyran point 1: Amarr guns only do one type of dammage 2: if you look on the crystals they have a volitility lvl and percentage. look at the t2 crystals aswell, you only get about 100 shots with them before they wear out and we pay how much for them compared for 1000 units of t2 ammo? 3: All ships get a base resistance to Amarr race dammage EM 60% and minmitar with base of 70%... do we really need to nerf them further? enough said.
1. hybrids only do kinetic/thermal 2. i think it's more like 1,000 shots 3. all ships have racial resists to some degree
if all crystals did degrade they should be cheaper really but they probably should degrade ------ FPDOMS MINER KILLBOARD |
jgjkgkjgjkg
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Posted - 2006.04.21 06:10:00 -
[5]
Using up crystals doen't make sense either. Its a lense. A freaking lense. You dont use up a lense, they just focus light, and they dont focus it so strong in the lense itself to damage the lense, its damage is cause at points in which its focused. So in no way should a lazer damage its lense unless a noob engineered it. I can't believe how inaccurate CCP got with lazer technology.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2006.04.21 06:11:00 -
[6]
This thread is dumb _ __
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Sergeant Spot
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Posted - 2006.04.21 06:13:00 -
[7]
I fly Caldari missile ships (weapons use NO cap), most Amarr ships, and Minmatar Frigs.
I'm also familar with other weapon types by talk and observation (sometimes on the recieving end...)
All weapon types have good and bad point. One of the specific CCP designed and intended good points for lasers was the lack of a need to reload. Lasers are the lazy man's weapon.
When I have flown Missile and Projectile ships, I've NEVER run out of ammo. Amarr advantage is not that you never run out ammo, as anyone with brains never runs out of ammo. Amarr advantage is more free hold space (because its not packed with ammo) and the luxury to be lazy.
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Sergeant Spot
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Posted - 2006.04.21 06:14:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Meridius This thread is dumb
agreed. The thread author is truly thick.
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Mind
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Posted - 2006.04.21 06:17:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Mind on 21/04/2006 06:16:47 well, they realy need to up the cap use on lasers by a good %'age. Atm with "no skills" a blaster takes more cap then a frikking laser.
how is that for veird?
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Phaese
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Posted - 2006.04.21 06:24:00 -
[10]
Don't start ranting about what is and isn't realistic; last time I checked, we didn't have any massive spaceship-sized lasers for you to base anything off of. We don't even have decent rifle-sized lasers, either. (Not to mention combat-worthy spaceships in the first place.)
So basically you're whining about how Amarrians don't have to spend a couple thousand isk here and there to keep ammo in their guns... And you want CCP to completely redesign a vital game mechanic that already works.
No wonder you posted with jgjkgkjgjkg.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2006.04.21 06:26:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Mind Edited by: Mind on 21/04/2006 06:16:47 well, they realy need to up the cap use on lasers by a good %'age. Atm with "no skills" a blaster takes more cap then a frikking laser.
how is that for veird?
the fact that the race which is supposed to use the most energy hungry weapons in the game can generally run their tanks and weapons indefidently is pretty annoying yes
shield tanks generally fail in a matter of seconds and obviously blasters eat through quite a lot of cap too ------ FPDOMS MINER KILLBOARD |
Meridius
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Posted - 2006.04.21 06:27:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Meridius on 21/04/2006 06:28:37
Originally by: Mind Edited by: Mind on 21/04/2006 06:16:47 well, they realy need to up the cap use on lasers by a good %'age. Atm with "no skills" a blaster takes more cap then a frikking laser.
how is that for veird?
O'RLY
Mega Pulse Laser II: Activation cost: 40
Neutron Blaster Cannon II: Activation cost: 26
40 is a larger number then 26, last i checked. I will go to the mathmobile to confirm now ._.
VERY VIERD INDEED
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jgjkgkjgjkg
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Posted - 2006.04.21 06:31:00 -
[13]
Lazers dont just hit a target like a projectile. Their damage is caused through heating up a target. To do this it needs to be focused accurately on a spot. This isn't viable for highly long range targets. So this would be the difference in your ranged classifications. Like rails to blasters.
Long range lazers would need intense amount of energy to fire a "pulse" of a retarded amount of focused light to a far off target, damaging it, but not as well as a streaming accurately focus lazer. CCP even got this much wrong. Their long guns are duration focused while their close guns are pulsed, lol. What noob designed that?
So heres the way it would work. Lenses would determine the range in which the lazer light is focused enough to cause significant damage. So instead of the different types of ammo, your lenses would determine the range/damage modifiers. Obviously the closer, the less the light is being interfered with by the surrounding atmosphere.
The turret reactors would determine the amount of light able to be focused, essentially the caliber of light, and would determine how long it could be fired without reloading a new drum of antimatter.
Tech 2 ammo would be in the form of advanced antimatter or whatever. And obviously, the long guns would be pulsed supercharges of not so accurate yet highly focused light, while the close guns would be less intensely focused light, but more accurately aimed at the same point over longer durations thus causing more DPS. This means the graphics for short and long would need to be reversed. Pulse lazers would logically be longe, while stream lazers would be close.
This is just how it should be. They probably wont change it, but for shame anyways CCP.
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Phaese
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Posted - 2006.04.21 06:38:00 -
[14]
CCP did manage to spell laser correctly though.
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jgjkgkjgjkg
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Posted - 2006.04.21 06:40:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Phaese Don't start ranting about what is and isn't realistic; last time I checked, we didn't have any massive spaceship-sized lasers for you to base anything off of. We don't even have decent rifle-sized lasers, either. (Not to mention combat-worthy spaceships in the first place.)
First Airborne Laser Aircraft Arrives at Boeing Wichita http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/abl/news/2000/012200.html Laser technology is real.
Originally by: Phaese
So basically you're whining about how Amarrians don't have to spend a couple thousand isk here and there to keep ammo in their guns... And you want CCP to completely redesign a vital game mechanic that already works.
No wonder you posted with jgjkgkjgjkg.
No actually I just think its hilarious first, and unfair second. Its just something that up to date science geeks like me want to scream at the developers about. Like WTF!! Have you been living under a rock!?
And I post with an alt when I whine and complain because, well, I like to be known for my happy, pleasant side. :) You'll see this alt posting a lot, you just wont connect the two.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2006.04.21 06:51:00 -
[16]
Originally by: jgjkgkjgjkg
Originally by: Phaese Don't start ranting about what is and isn't realistic; last time I checked, we didn't have any massive spaceship-sized lasers for you to base anything off of. We don't even have decent rifle-sized lasers, either. (Not to mention combat-worthy spaceships in the first place.)
First Airborne Laser Aircraft Arrives at Boeing Wichita http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/abl/news/2000/012200.html Laser technology is real.
Yes and eve is a GAME. A game where nobody gives a flying **** about pimped out boeing 747's that house a ghetto laser, mmkay
Gameplay > RL _ __
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Phaese
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Posted - 2006.04.21 06:55:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Phaese on 21/04/2006 06:56:02 It could also be possible that, with all the other technologies they have in EVE, they might've also made some technological breakthroughs in laser technology. Or energy storage. Or your mom.
Lasers, as they are right now, work more or less fine. At the very most, they could swap the beam and pulse names and graphics around. It'd also be cool if the beam cycle time and damage was reduced drastically in a 1:1 ratio, so the beam and cap usage would be constant. Otherwise, there's no reason to destroy the diversity of our weapons because they don't fit into your perception of realistic.
(edit) grammar errors
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jgjkgkjgjkg
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Posted - 2006.04.21 06:56:00 -
[18]
Heh, I suppose you wouldn't care if projectiles used metal to fire the gunpowered eh? ;p Or how about a railgun where the ammo fired the magnets!
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Purifier
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Posted - 2006.04.21 06:58:00 -
[19]
1. The game isnt real 2. Laser is spelled with an S not a Z. 3. Blasters essentially use more cap then lasers because almost all, if not all amarrian ships, get a 10% bonus to energy use. 4. Real lasers don't necessarily have their own reactors. 5. Batteries come in all different voltages and amperages so I don't see how you can argue that a fictional laser would use more power than a fictional battery of unknown potential. 6. Antimatter is not a power source in itself and we currently cannot harness its power, stop watching so many movies. 7. You have no idea what the fictional bs's capacitors capacitance is or the amount of energy the fictional laser would use so once again the weapon would not necessarily consume the Apoc's cap in one shot. 8. "Theres no reason that lazer turrets shouldn't use batteries" and then yo u said " They require way more energy than a battery can afford"... well thats one reaosn according to you....
Yes... |
Cvuos
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Posted - 2006.04.21 07:01:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Meridius
Mega Pulse Laser II: Activation cost: 40
Neutron Blaster Cannon II: Activation cost: 26
But Amarr ships usually get a bonus to cap usage + have better base cap. But then again I don't know how the exact math works out with regards dps divided by cap recharge per second to the power of tanked dps multiplied with veldspar pr cycle. All I know is if there's anything unbalanced, it's way within tolerances to give different flavours. If everything was perfectly balanced, then there wouldn't really be any incentive to explore other races' ships - you would just be doing the same stuff with different 3D models.
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jgjkgkjgjkg
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Posted - 2006.04.21 07:04:00 -
[21]
I meant battery in that the reactor isn't attached to the storage drum. It wouldn't be efficient to have an antimatter reactor mounted on each drum of antimatter.
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samuel222
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Posted - 2006.04.21 07:09:00 -
[22]
Are you honestly expecting a nerf cause u dont like the game how its been since release? u think they care for 1 persons opinion how many people have honsetly agreed with you in this thred? get a life ___________________________ Now thats a face for radio!
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Waragha
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Posted - 2006.04.21 07:10:00 -
[23]
In before the WHOLE freaking world starts flaming you :D
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Spartan239
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Posted - 2006.04.21 07:12:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Meridius Edited by: Meridius on 21/04/2006 06:28:37
Originally by: Mind Edited by: Mind on 21/04/2006 06:16:47 well, they realy need to up the cap use on lasers by a good %'age. Atm with "no skills" a blaster takes more cap then a frikking laser.
how is that for veird?
O'RLY
Mega Pulse Laser II: Activation cost: 40
Neutron Blaster Cannon II: Activation cost: 26
40 is a larger number then 26, last i checked. I will go to the mathmobile to confirm now ._.
VERY VIERD INDEED
put void in that blaster and see what you get, and are you accounting for any bonus the ship gets?
I post on the forums for MaxSuicide that makes me cool?
Originally by: Dark Shikari Dragonball Z> all other anime
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Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2006.04.21 07:13:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 21/04/2006 07:13:58 yes please, and also make planets and stuff orbit other stuff, implement newtonian physics and gravitation effects, propulsion/fuel, and while you're at it also implement relativistic effects .. of wait how do we emulate time distortion caused by high speed traveling?
aahh crap, screw it, let's just play the game we have now, it's already fun enough as it is ain't it?
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Cvuos
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Posted - 2006.04.21 07:18:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe
yes please, and also make planets and stuff orbit other stuff, implement newtonian physics and gravitation effects, propulsion/fuel, and while you're at it also implement relativistic effects .. of wait how do we emulate time distortion caused by high speed traveling?
Also please to be adding option to test new ships in space with trained monkeys.
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Hectaire Glade
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Posted - 2006.04.21 07:20:00 -
[27]
Wth is a 'lazer' ?
its LASER : Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation
What assumptions are you making regarding the physics of laser amplification that indcate the power input modelling in EVE does not equate to the damage output of the same hypothetical device?
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KenchaSha
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Posted - 2006.04.21 07:31:00 -
[28]
http://www.realultimatepower.net/
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Twilight Moon
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Posted - 2006.04.21 07:32:00 -
[29]
Originally by: KenchaSha http://www.realultimatepower.net/
Welcome to 1999.
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KenchaSha
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Posted - 2006.04.21 07:35:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Twilight Moon
Originally by: KenchaSha http://www.realultimatepower.net/
Welcome to 1999.
well thats what this thread reminded me of....
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Twilight Moon
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Posted - 2006.04.21 07:36:00 -
[31]
Originally by: KenchaSha
Originally by: Twilight Moon
Originally by: KenchaSha http://www.realultimatepower.net/
Welcome to 1999.
well thats what this thread reminded me of....
True, True.
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New Soi
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Posted - 2006.04.21 07:58:00 -
[32]
That said, I think I completely collapsed your entire argument, and thus this matter is finished. Your proposition of a new ammo-type is nonsense, as lasers dont use antimatter, but just normal energy. Also, as said before, dont change what works well, and as intended. You are the one being unrealistic, and not CCP's implementation of lasers.
There. I have nothing to say anymore.
Yours faithfully,
Soi.
P.S. Note that there also is a "Multifrequency" crystal in Eve that is supposed to modulate a laser beam to all frequencies. Physically this would mean that a laser frequency would be modulated into an entire random wave, which could have damaging potential. (But also requires the most power to generate). Although it might seem powerful, it will probably be less damaging than gamma or cosmic radiation.
______________________________
Time flows where it wants to flow |
New Soi
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Posted - 2006.04.21 07:58:00 -
[33]
jgjkgkjgjkg, by posting this thread, it is quite clear that you do not understand the way lasers work in Eve and how they work in reality.
First of all, in reality we know 2 types of (gas)lasers: - Beam lasers - Pulse lasers "Coincidentally", in Eve these 2 types of lasers can be distinguished as well.
Beam lasers Beam lasers need a constant supply of energy in order to sustain the atoms in its medium in their triggered state. This is done by sending electrons through the medium, of which the medium will absorb part of its energy to get to a higher energy state. The triggered medium atoms will then release photons, which in turn will trigger other medium atoms, etc. Which will end up in a chain reaction. It is in no way true that lasers have "their own reactor".
Pulse lasers Pulse lasers are almost the same as beam lasers, but their difference is that the pulse lasers are triggered by a single signal of electricty that causes an immense chain reaction in its medium. Meaning, it needs only a little amount of power to create a laser pulse. Pulse lasers have a higher peakpower than normal beam lasers, but their duration is shorter (because the chainreaction will die out fast after the pulse because there is no constant feed of energy). With only this little power input, the power generated can be in the order of several Megawatts (MW).
Beam lasers and pulse lasers are commonly used in the space industry and satellites.
Now to get back to the way lasers work in Eve. Lasers in eve require "ammo". This ammo is a small "lense"-like object that combines a lense with a frequency modulator. If you see the Show Info tab on a laser Frequency Modulator, you can see the ranges differ, as well as the needed power.
How they work In fact put right after the medium, when the laser beam exits the semitransparent conductor, it focuses the laser beam on a specific point in space, and modulates the outgoing laser beam to another frequency. Even though this concept of photonic frequency modulation is physically possible, we dont know how to make one yet, but Eve uses it (it's a sci-fi after all). It works by adding energy to a laser beam (which would mean you have to add energy to photons, which isn't possible, but it is possible to absorb them and emit in another wavelength), by which the wavelength (or frequency) of the laser beam changes. Hence the name "Frequency Modulators".
Behold here the important part of the electromagnetic spectrum we're talking about. Assuming the standard laser emits normal light, we could add energy to get to the higher frequency radiation (UV, X-Ray, Gamma), or somehow extract energy to get to the lower frequency radiation (IR, MW, Radio). The short wavelength radiations have a strong dissipation, whereas the long wavelengths do not. This means the laser will have dissipated sooner with Gamma than with Radio waves. This explains the different ranges on the laser frequency crystal. And as already explained, the frequency crystal seems to add or extract energy from the laser beam to modulate it into another frequency. High frequencies need more energy than the low frequencies, and that's why the Frequency Crystals also need some extra, or some less capacitor depending on the wave length (and depending on what you take as reference point, although this seems a little bit mixed up in Eve, and should be corrected).
Now, I already said that higher frequencies have a stronger dissipation than lower frequencies; I add to it that the higher frequencies also contain more energy and are thus also more damaging. In real life, gamma radiation is highly damaging, whereas radio waves are not (we use it all the time, if we used gamma we'd be all dead by now). As a general rule, the higher the frequency, the more damaging. (Cosmic radiation is higher frequency than gamma, and luckily our atmosphere blocks it).
______________________________
Time flows where it wants to flow |
Baraak Tizhaan
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Posted - 2006.04.21 08:03:00 -
[34]
There always seems to be a nerf lasers thread. Points to remember: 1. This is a game. 2. In Eve laser turrets have the worst falloff distance of any weapon, hence the need for quick crystal changes to keep targets at optimum. 3. Yes, Amarr ships tend to get bonuses in cap usage, but very few get bonuses in weapon damage, unlike other races. 4. Lasers tend to have high fitting requirements, particularly for powergrid. 5. Admittedly real life lasers do not rely on their lenses to generate power, but then neither do electromagnetic rails nor projectile guns rely on the material of the projectile. Electromagnetic rails rely on the power and speed of switching of the electromagnets used in the rail and projectile guns rely on the charge of "explosive" used.
Remember this is a game. Points about energy usage, beam refraction, focusing etc. do not apply. Please don't try and use real life arguements to qualify your complaint about gme mechanics without being thorough. If we are going to get technical and bring real life physics into the equation then can I also point out the following: 1. Ship combat is taking place in a vacuum, therefore laser beam diffraction and energy disipation due to particulate interaction between the laser emitter and it's target is going to be negligable over the combat distances involved. 2. Laser emitters tend to have power sources designed for their use, therefore any combat craft mounting a laser would obviously be given a power source sufficent to power it's weaponry. 3. Lasers currently in use don't use any form of "ammunition" to power them. They are all powered electrically. 4. Current 21st century technology tends to favour pulse lasers for high energy applications over beam lasers, purely because they rely on capacitors and inductive coils for energy storage as it is the most cost effective method of powering them. Future implementation of laser power sources are bound to be more efficient. 5. I see no complaint about the time of flight for projectile and hybrid gun "ammunition" to the target. They're certainly not going to be travelling at the speed of light to their target and so really should have a longer period of flight between firing and impacting their target. 6. I see no complaint about ships behaving as atmospheric aircraft, with maximum speeds and obvious resistance to their travel (hence speed reduction when microwarp drives and afterburners are deactivated).
I could go on, but wont.
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Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2006.04.21 08:41:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Baraak Tizhaan
2. In Eve laser turrets have the worst falloff distance of any weapon, hence the need for quick crystal changes to keep targets at optimum. 3. Yes, Amarr ships tend to get bonuses in cap usage, but very few get bonuses in weapon damage, unlike other races.
damage potential of lasers however is much more than of other weapons.. so by fitting a laser on non-amarr ship you get very decent damage even without damage bonuses. For the cost of the higher cap usage of course.
That and zero ammo usage makes lasers the best choise in situation when you want to fit a lower size weaponry on larger ships, when you want to concentrate on tank instead of firepower for example. Think of a domi with medium pulses or vexor with small beams...
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Grimpak
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Posted - 2006.04.21 08:48:00 -
[36]
hmm...
....I think I remeber similar threads like this one from a few years back.... ----------------
Originally by: Abdalion Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2006.04.21 09:02:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Spartan239
put void in that blaster and see what you get, and are you accounting for any bonus the ship gets?
Void uses 25% more cap and so does Conflagration. So what was your point there?
The person i quoted claimed blasters used more cap with no bonus's, that is what i was responding to.
BTW, Armageddon with a full rack of MP II and max skills uses more cap/second then a blasterthron with neutron blaster IIs. Thats accounting skills...ran the numbers a while back so i don't have them handy. _ __
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Neon Genesis
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Posted - 2006.04.21 09:06:00 -
[38]
Originally by: jgjkgkjgjkg Contrary to CCP's belief, large lazers use way more energy than a projectile. Way more energy. If the game strived to be accurate, then one large lazer blast would drain an appocolypse's capacitor in a single shot. Crystals shmitsals, the damage behind lazers isn't in some stupid lense, its the amount of energy focused by the lense.
So basically what you're doing is creating in your head real technology behind completely fictional ships and weapons and then telling everyone why it dosn't add up in your mind. You sir, are a boob.
There, i just contributed nothing to your thread |
LukaG
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Posted - 2006.04.21 09:06:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: Spartan239
put void in that blaster and see what you get, and are you accounting for any bonus the ship gets?
Void uses 25% more cap and so does Conflagration. So what was your point there?
The person i quoted claimed blasters used more cap with no bonus's, that is what i was responding to.
BTW, Armageddon with a full rack of MP II and max skills uses more cap/second then a blasterthron with neutron blaster IIs. Thats accounting skills...ran the numbers a while back so i don't have them handy.
Yes but doesn't the Armageddon have a bigger cap and faster recharge time?
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Kalaan Oratay
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Posted - 2006.04.21 09:07:00 -
[40]
This is a game. Outside of the game is real life. Real life is subject to the laws of physics. The game is not. Learn the difference and be merry. ---
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Copine Callmeknau
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Posted - 2006.04.21 09:12:00 -
[41]
You know, for someone who is clearly a world renowned expert on the matter you do sure spell LASER (Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation) wrong an awful lot
-------
With five million sheep in this army I seem to be the only one fit to command
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Reite
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Posted - 2006.04.21 09:23:00 -
[42]
Originally by: LukaG
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: Spartan239
put void in that blaster and see what you get, and are you accounting for any bonus the ship gets?
Void uses 25% more cap and so does Conflagration. So what was your point there?
The person i quoted claimed blasters used more cap with no bonus's, that is what i was responding to.
BTW, Armageddon with a full rack of MP II and max skills uses more cap/second then a blasterthron with neutron blaster IIs. Thats accounting skills...ran the numbers a while back so i don't have them handy.
Yes but doesn't the Armageddon have a bigger cap and faster recharge time?
No not really, not as such as it matter atleast:
Arma
recharge time 870,00 sec
capacitor capacity 4250 Energy
4250/870 =4,885
Mega
recharge time 923,90 sec
capacitor capacity 4500 Energy
4500/923=4.875
WHY dont u check it urself?null
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.04.21 09:32:00 -
[43]
Hmm...
@ Activation costs: Mega Pulse Laser II base activation cost should be counted with perfect ship bonuses for accurate comparison. If you don't believe in high skillpoints, then count with level 4 instead. Mega Pulse II - 24 (level 4) cap over 7.875 seconds Neutron Cannon II - 26 cap over 7.875 seconds
@ Realism: Well, if you really strive for realism, then you've got several problems. The amount of energy to activate any projectile weapon is about the same as for missile launchers, all you need is to turn the turret mount around and then arm the targeting systems and fuel the automatic reload system *basically*. It takes a lot more energy to magnetically propel hybrid charges, and by "a lot" I mean nuclear power plant grade energy. This is assuming we want to achieve very high velocities required to accuratly fire upon ships that are tenths, if not hundredth, of kilometers away without them easily dodging the bullets. And as for lasers, it does take even more energy. Because of lasing, however, the energy loss isn't quite as big, while the problem of actually focusing enough energy on a small enough target is more of a problem - also you don't need to bother with velocities. But even so, reactor need to drive the lasers of an Apocalypse would be enourmous, easily taking more place than the ammo bays of any of the projectile based weapons.
But it doesn't really stop there, when it comes to realism problems. The main advantage with using magnetic rails to propell munitions is that each charge doesn't need a very large chemical propellant attached to it. The ammunition sizes for 1400mm projectiles would be simply silly, the chemical propellant part of the munition would easily reach the size of a Volks Wagen minibus!
No, the net effect, if you want to go for "realism" is that lasers would use insane capacitor (and simply wouldn't be able to fire for very long, let alone tank). Coilguns that are hybrids woudn't be able to fire very long, either, but a bit longer. Chemically propelled projectiles would be able to fire forever, were it not for that they'd only have about 3-400 rounds at most if they used some of the crew quarters to store ammo. And let's not start with missiles, which would have a slightly higher payload, but use even more room.
It's fine as it is. Except that lasers use less capacitor than hybrids - that is just wrong. They already track a lot better and they already don't use ammunition.
P.S. Nearly forgot. OP: lasers do TWO types of damage, EM and Thermal. Hybrid charges also do only TWO types of damage. Note how EM or EXP is prefered over TH or KIN sort of damage if the target is using damage specific hardeners - regardless of what hit point layer he's tanking.
Latest EVE musing (MC-boards) |
The ArchWarder
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Posted - 2006.04.21 09:51:00 -
[44]
Ty New Soy for that delightful scientific article, perhaps more people should research these matters before calling for the nerf-bat and perhaps remember that this is a game.
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Imperial Coercion
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Posted - 2006.04.21 09:55:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Harry Voyager
the point that poster was trying to make: Amarr ships, despite having the most energy intensive guns, also have the highest endurance tanks in the game, where as the ships with the lowest energy using guns in the game have the weakest tanks, despite energy being vital to any sustainable tank.
Harry Voyager
And the other races has damage bonuses on their ships.
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Daos Leghki
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Posted - 2006.04.21 10:24:00 -
[46]
As an interesting tidbit, frequency crystals, while not being used up, do tend to cost more than ammunition. Consider that you must carry multiple sets of them, that they are somewhat expensive and that if you lose your ship, you lose all of them. It is simply like carrying thousands of rounds in your hold. Yes, it means you'll never run out of ammo, but if you get blown up, that's a lot of ammo that's gone. Also, while the DPS on lasers is quite high, keep in mind that they're using fixed damage types taht are only good against shields. Sure on hardened opponents, they're just as good against armor, but that's because anything you shoot at them is going to be about as good as anything else. Anyway, keep in mind that the Amarr do two things well: shoot and tank. It is the Amarrian design philosophy. If you compare the Armageddon to the Domi or the Phoon/Pest, of course it's going to tank better and have better DPS. You forget that the Arma has only 3 mid slots. The Apocalypse has 4. What they gain in firepower, they lose in versatility.
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Hojidoma
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Posted - 2006.04.21 10:29:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Hojidoma on 21/04/2006 10:30:28 I'll be quiet, just saw the seond page, more or less what I was saying.
Note to self, read full thread
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Skylar Keenan
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Posted - 2006.04.21 10:46:00 -
[48]
This post is wrong on so many levels that I think I got dumber just reading it.
How on earth do you know how good the capacitor of the Apocalypse class battleship is ? I don't believe it is ever mentioned what unit their energy is measured in. It could be measured in zetta-farad for all you know. (Which should be enough to keep most anything running for a good long time) We are in the future after all. And the powerplant charging said capacitor would obviously be insanely powerful.
I'm not really sure if the crystals modulating the light take damage from doing so with current-day technology, but let's assume they've invented something better in the meantime.
As for the whole antimatter part. After just giving a reality rant, you choose to bring STORED antimatter into it. That is so dumb I could scream. We have seen traces of antimatter in those huge-ass accelerator rings, but actually creating enough of it for anything, much less store it (magnets - yeah, why do you think they have so much trouble with fusion) not to mention actually finding a way of utilizing the energy from adding some matter into the mix without blowing up the earth.
Doesn't it hurt being so dumb ? -----------------------------------------------
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Asphyxia DeNoir
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Posted - 2006.04.21 10:59:00 -
[49]
If only Amarr weaponry was based off of real world modern technology, the OP might have a shot in the dark of a point, but alas.
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Vizard
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Posted - 2006.04.21 11:14:00 -
[50]
Lasers have already been Nerf-Bat Attacked.
Back in I think it was September 2004.
They used to be way better and more effective at long ranges, not to mention the insta-switch (man I miss that)
All weapons have been Nerfed atleast once, Started with Projectiles then Lasers nexted the missiles, now the Hybrid power useage.
Next we will be out with rubber mallets because people keep swinging the nerf bat around.
THAT"S IT, We all have to use NERF bats, no more weapons!
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.04.21 11:25:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Vizard Back in I think it was September 2004.
Well, aside from the fact that they still change crystals instantly, the date you are pointing at was the date when all large(r) turrets got nerfed in their tracking versus small(er) ships.
IIRC, at nearly the same time Amarr ships had their bonuses changed from -5% cap use to -10% cap use. So, September 2004 was a good month for lasers - it was the month when all other turrets got nerfed more than lasers were. (Also, at almost the same time projectile turrets were toned down a bit)
Latest EVE musing (MC-boards) |
Sidraket
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Posted - 2006.04.21 11:50:00 -
[52]
Huh?
First of all. Noone has pointed out that if eve where real you wouldnt be able to see the laser beams at all , well, maybe in some of those places that have a bunch of dust floating around you could.
Secondly, amarr are just better. When will people learn that? We are not arrogant for no reason.
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Aptenodytes
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Posted - 2006.04.21 11:57:00 -
[53]
Originally by: jgjkgkjgjkg lazers
It always amazes me how you septics can mis-spell an acronym. LASER = Light Amplification through Stimulated Emission of Radiation. Putting a Z in it is just stoopid.
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SpaceCleaver
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Posted - 2006.04.21 12:00:00 -
[54]
People should stop whining about fundamental things in the gameplay. Do you realy think that CCP would change the crystals to some kind of batteries so long after release?
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Desired Username
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Posted - 2006.04.21 12:34:00 -
[55]
This must be a joke thread?
___________________________________________
Please do not read this sig.
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Laythun
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Posted - 2006.04.21 12:43:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Desired Username This must be a joke thread?
I laughed --------------------------------------------- If im flaming or not contributing im sorry, but im trying to get into th [23]
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2006.04.21 13:01:00 -
[57]
Contrary to popular belief we dont fly around in space ships in excess of warp speed.
If they wanted to make this game "accurate" we'd be in tanks or something.
Drop the RL comparisions, this is a truly cringeworthy thread!
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Astrum Ludus
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Posted - 2006.04.21 13:18:00 -
[58]
Looks like you got the rise you were looking for...
Hooray for Fridays
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Tassi
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Posted - 2006.04.21 13:20:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Ithildin Hmm...
@ Activation costs: Mega Pulse Laser II base activation cost should be counted with perfect ship bonuses for accurate comparison. If you don't believe in high skillpoints, then count with level 4 instead. Mega Pulse II - 24 (level 4) cap over 7.875 seconds Neutron Cannon II - 26 cap over 7.875 seconds
Yes. But "all" amarr ships lose 1 dmg/tracking bonus because of this. That said, mega gets more dmg + tracking, apoc gets more cap?
Dont forget that we amarr sacrifice at least 1 tracking or 1 dmg bonus just to be able to shoot with lasers.
haha, dont come with the "inbuilt dmg bonus" of lasers because there is NO inbuilt dmg bonus. Compare blaster dps with pulse dps.
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Denrace
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Posted - 2006.04.21 13:28:00 -
[60]
There is no sound in space either.
Devs, please remove all sounds from EVE.
________________________________________
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Roy Gordon
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Posted - 2006.04.21 13:28:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Roy Gordon on 21/04/2006 13:28:46 This thread shows a typical 21st century mindset. We have no idea what kind of output powerplants will be able to produce in 50 year, let alone 500! Look at powerplants in existance 100 years ago, one nuke generator now produces more power than every powerstation in existance 100 years ago, and more. Try and imagine what will be in existance in 500 years time, dont you think that it will be fairly easy to power your laser weapons by then?
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Viktor Fyretracker
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Posted - 2006.04.21 13:30:00 -
[62]
T2 crystals decay because its how they keep Tech 2 Balanced against tech 1.
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Jaketh Ivanes
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Posted - 2006.04.21 13:52:00 -
[63]
I think amarr lasers work very well.. but I also use them alot
On a more historical matter, when I got into my first Fleet battle alongside PIE, lasers were the weaklings. Projectile were the powerhouses. Especially Tach's were a real killer of cap. Then they reduced it a bit, so an Apoc didn't empty its cap in 3-4 vollies. So lasers have been the worst weapon in EvE, now its Projectiles (or have we just not found the great use for them yet?). I guess at some point, projectiles will lose the seat as worst weapon. Personally, I hope missiles takes the place *ducks*
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Jaketh Ivanes
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Posted - 2006.04.21 13:53:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Denrace There is no sound in space either.
Devs, please remove all sounds from EVE.
Actually, its you in-ship computer creating the sounds for you, or so i hear.. it should be in the background description of eve, somewhere.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.04.21 14:07:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 21/04/2006 14:08:09 Edited by: Jim McGregor on 21/04/2006 14:07:26
Originally by: Deja Thoris If they wanted to make this game "accurate" we'd be in tanks or something.
Then i would be flying an A-10 and wtfpwning everybody. The whining would be horrible.
Sorry for being abit off-topic, but lets face it, this thread is not going anywhere.
--- "2006.04.15 05:48:19 notify Ditrigonal Thermal Barrier Crystallization I is already modifyActiveShieldResonanceAndNullifyPassiveResonance." |
Reite
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Posted - 2006.04.21 14:29:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Aava Nefarr
Originally by: Meridius Edited by: Meridius on 21/04/2006 06:28:37
Originally by: Mind Edited by: Mind on 21/04/2006 06:16:47 well, they realy need to up the cap use on lasers by a good %'age. Atm with "no skills" a blaster takes more cap then a frikking laser.
how is that for veird?
O'RLY
Mega Pulse Laser II: Activation cost: 40
Neutron Blaster Cannon II: Activation cost: 26
40 is a larger number then 26, last i checked. I will go to the mathmobile to confirm now ._.
VERY VIERD INDEED
The blaster is short range. The pulse laser is long range. This is not a fair comparison
You should compare it to the 425mm railgun II, which has an activation energy of 30.
Ahh so u wanna compare long range weapons...
425mm railgun 2 use 30 megabeam 2 use 65
i pity you fool
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Tassi
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Posted - 2006.04.21 14:47:00 -
[67]
Quote:
The blaster is short range. The pulse laser is long range. This is not a fair comparison
You should compare it to the 425mm railgun II, which has an activation energy of 30.
Since when are pulses LONGRANGE? Why are some people so goddamn stupid?
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:41:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 21/04/2006 15:42:24
Originally by: Tassi
Quote:
The blaster is short range. The pulse laser is long range. This is not a fair comparison
You should compare it to the 425mm railgun II, which has an activation energy of 30.
Since when are pulses LONGRANGE? Why are some people so goddamn stupid?
Because its so much more fun compared to being intelligent?
--- "2006.04.15 05:48:19 notify Ditrigonal Thermal Barrier Crystallization I is already modifyActiveShieldResonanceAndNullifyPassiveResonance." |
HairyGary
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Posted - 2006.04.21 15:55:00 -
[69]
Edited by: HairyGary on 21/04/2006 15:55:31
Quote: Contrary to CCP's belief, large lazers use way more energy than a projectile. Way more energy. If the game strived to be accurate, then one large lazer blast would drain an appocolypse's capacitor in a single shot.
Emphasis indicates the exact moment at which your post rendered itself pointless.
First of all, this is a game. Not reality. Not a simulation. Game.
Secondly...prove it. Go on. Show us all, mathematically, just what percentage of power would be consumed by a fictional spacecraft (with a fictional energy source) firing a fictional energy weapon.
Quote: Fix please.
If I had to venture a guess, I would say it seems far more likely that you're simply going to have to get over it.
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OrangeAfroMan
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Posted - 2006.04.21 17:05:00 -
[70]
This thread contains more idiocy than I have seen in the rest of the forum combined.
Originally by: Slink Grinsdikild CAPS LOCK IS THE CRUISE CONTROL FOR AWESOME
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Cpt Placeholder
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Posted - 2006.04.21 17:19:00 -
[71]
0/10 :( awful thread
its called science FICTION for a reason
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Malacore
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Posted - 2006.04.21 17:43:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Aava Nefarr
Originally by: Meridius Edited by: Meridius on 21/04/2006 06:28:37
Originally by: Mind Edited by: Mind on 21/04/2006 06:16:47 well, they realy need to up the cap use on lasers by a good %'age. Atm with "no skills" a blaster takes more cap then a frikking laser.
how is that for veird?
O'RLY
Mega Pulse Laser II: Activation cost: 40
Neutron Blaster Cannon II: Activation cost: 26
40 is a larger number then 26, last i checked. I will go to the mathmobile to confirm now ._.
VERY VIERD INDEED
The blaster is short range. The pulse laser is long range. This is not a fair comparison
You should compare it to the 425mm railgun II, which has an activation energy of 30.
Holy ****... I've been using the wrong amarrian guns at the wrong ranges for an incredibly long time.
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Ditscher
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Posted - 2006.04.21 19:14:00 -
[73]
the funniest thread atm
reality comparisons 4tw the whole blasters vs. lasers thing 4tw
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Faedan Pain
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Posted - 2006.04.21 20:06:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Purifier 1. 2. Laser is spelled with an S not a Z.
and not to mention an acronym
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Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2006.04.21 20:21:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Malacore
Originally by: Aava Nefarr The blaster is short range. The pulse laser is long range. This is not a fair comparison
You should compare it to the 425mm railgun II, which has an activation energy of 30.
Holy ****... I've been using the wrong amarrian guns at the wrong ranges for an incredibly long time.
let's compare.. heavy neutron blaster, 3 km optimal heavy pulse laser, 10km optimal
that's not close range really, more like mediuim range...
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Frezik
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Posted - 2006.04.21 21:32:00 -
[76]
Originally by: jgjkgkjgjkg Contrary to CCP's belief, large lazers use way more energy than a projectile. Way more energy. If the game strived to be accurate, then one large lazer blast would drain an appocolypse's capacitor in a single shot.
Each unit of capacitor on the ships could well be in the MF or GF range, for all we know. Clearly, the developers intended the charge to be enough to fire high-energy laser and rail weapons, so it must be a lot.
Quote: Crystals shmitsals, the damage behind lazers isn't in some stupid lense, its the amount of energy focused by the lense.
It is thought that each crystal tends to emit different wavelengths of light, sometimes in the UV, IR, and X-Ray range. This accounts for different damage and ranges.
Quote: Ammo could be in provided by containers of antimatter (antimatter is the most efficient power source, ever)
No, it's not. Efficency of a powersource is determined by how much energy you put into it compared to what you get out. While anti-matter might give off extremely high ammounts of power, it also takes an extremely high ammount of power to make in the first place. Current production output of anti-matter is measured in grams/year or less. That may one day change, but for right now, anti-matter is not an efficient power source. ---- "Well in this case, he's being flamed, and rightly so, for whinning about a game mechanic that doesn't actually exist." -Lorth |
Pang Grohl
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Posted - 2006.04.21 22:00:00 -
[77]
Originally by: jgjkgkjgjkg Why don't lzers use ammo?
coz the frickin' sharks don't have frickin' cargo holds!
Forum: A place where ideas come to prove their worth.
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Frezik
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Posted - 2006.04.21 22:02:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Pang Grohl
Originally by: jgjkgkjgjkg Why don't lzers use ammo?
coz the frickin' sharks don't have frickin' cargo holds!
You won the Internet. ---- "Well in this case, he's being flamed, and rightly so, for whinning about a game mechanic that doesn't actually exist." -Lorth |
GLi7ch
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Posted - 2006.04.21 22:06:00 -
[79]
heh topics liek this ***** me up "ZOMG IN REAL LIFE TAH LAZERS WOULD NEED SOOO MUCH MORE ENERGY TO FIRE"
now ill jus hop into my SPACE POD wich jacks into my BRAIN then go out in space and WARP to a STAR THAT DOESNT BURN MY SHIP and then do some other stuff that is completely unrealistic b4 i go to tah forums adn complain that LAZ0RZ arnt REAL enuf for me
Originally by: Eximius Josari
Originally by: Farquoo Too Hey Wrangler i seem to be having problems satisfying my girlfriend in bed,any ideas what i'm doing wrong?
Participating.
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.04.21 22:14:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Tassi
Originally by: Ithildin Hmm...
@ Activation costs: Mega Pulse Laser II base activation cost should be counted with perfect ship bonuses for accurate comparison. If you don't believe in high skillpoints, then count with level 4 instead. Mega Pulse II - 24 (level 4) cap over 7.875 seconds Neutron Cannon II - 26 cap over 7.875 seconds
Yes. But "all" amarr ships lose 1 dmg/tracking bonus because of this. That said, mega gets more dmg + tracking, apoc gets more cap?
Dont forget that we amarr sacrifice at least 1 tracking or 1 dmg bonus just to be able to shoot with lasers.
haha, dont come with the "inbuilt dmg bonus" of lasers because there is NO inbuilt dmg bonus. Compare blaster dps with pulse dps.
No, there is no "inbuilt damage bonus". That's just silly. Lasers just do about 20% more damage than hybrids (comparing comparable turrets, i.e. beams and railguns) before skills are aplied.
Yes, Megathron has a tracking bonus. No, not all Gallente ships have tracking bonuses. No, there are many more ships using hybrids that don't get tracking bonuses than those that do get tracking bonuses. No, inspite of the tracking bonus, with max skills, lasers still have better tracking than hybrids - AFTER the comming change Note how only a +10% tracking bonus will make railguns track better than beams - and that's a close call.
Now stop being silly, a ship bonus means NOTHING. It's the end result that means something. THAT is what you make balance of. Signature removed due to incorrect size (400X120px and 24000 bytes). Please review the forum rules or e-mail us with any questions. You can view you signature here - Petwraith Latest EVE musing (MC-boards) |
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Professor McFly
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Posted - 2006.04.21 22:43:00 -
[81]
Moral of the thread:
no one likes a ****head. __________________ Inappropriate link description. --Jorauk mods - pwning sigs since 1943 |
Wulfgard
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Posted - 2006.04.22 00:59:00 -
[82]
ze lazerz are zevilz plz nefz it CCP Somone forgot to fit an EM hardner on his wtfpwnall caldarimobile?
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Flash Landsraad
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Posted - 2006.04.22 01:11:00 -
[83]
Originally by: jgjkgkjgjkg And I post with an alt when I whine and complain because, well, I like to be known for my happy, pleasant side. :) You'll see this alt posting a lot, you just wont connect the two.
So in other words you're a coward who is afraid to put his name on his own views? Yes, we should really listen to people like that...
Lasers are a vital game mechanic and they work, changing them would iritate a lot of people for no good reason, not to mention the fact of it being a waste of time that could be spent on fixing things that are actually bugged such as the errors with carriers, or things that actually need to be looked at such as large blasters.
Good day.
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Risopan
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Posted - 2006.04.22 01:16:00 -
[84]
this whole thread is just lame. eve is a game not real life. and I love it as it is. if it was more like real life then why the heck would I play it huh?
eve is a little world where real life things don't exist its a world where things that in real can't be can be done
so lets just keep it like otherwise everyone might as well quit eve and go into their real life
I keep seeing people flaming amarr coz ohh they are soo powerful and so on. well ill ask u this - ever read the eve background story? just like all games eve has a story. and the story says Amarr are the most advanced race after jovians NOW doesn't that say something?
sorry about text typing from mobile
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Malacore
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Posted - 2006.04.22 02:48:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Malacore on 22/04/2006 02:48:51
Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe
Originally by: Malacore
Originally by: Aava Nefarr The blaster is short range. The pulse laser is long range. This is not a fair comparison
You should compare it to the 425mm railgun II, which has an activation energy of 30.
Holy ****... I've been using the wrong amarrian guns at the wrong ranges for an incredibly long time.
let's compare.. heavy neutron blaster, 3 km optimal heavy pulse laser, 10km optimal
that's not close range really, more like mediuim range...
But of the laser family they're the short range weapons.
Comparing a railgun and a pulse laser... you might as well compare tachyons to autocannons.
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Benglada
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Posted - 2006.04.22 03:10:00 -
[86]
Originally by: jgjkgkjgjkg Heh, I suppose you wouldn't care if projectiles used metal to fire the gunpowered eh? ;p Or how about a railgun where the ammo fired the magnets!
We really wouldnt. ---------------------------
Originally by: Wrangler Unfrtinately you dnot get to vote..
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putty cat
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Posted - 2006.04.22 03:21:00 -
[87]
wish i could know whois alt that started the topic so i could show him what is it really like to be in the recieving end of my tachyons to stop him whining
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G Dabak
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Posted - 2006.04.22 03:46:00 -
[88]
Why, I agree with the OP! Give me a third laser type that has battery ammo and uses no cap. That sounds neat.
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Malacore
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Posted - 2006.04.22 04:04:00 -
[89]
Originally by: G Dabak Why, I agree with the OP! Give me a third laser type that has battery ammo and uses no cap. That sounds neat.
When you put it that way....
I agree.
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Sessho Seki
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Posted - 2006.04.22 06:54:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Sessho Seki on 22/04/2006 06:54:06
Originally by: G Dabak Why, I agree with the OP! Give me a third laser type that has battery ammo and uses no cap. That sounds neat.
I can see it now:
"Your Ni-Cd D-Cell hits gurista demolisher for 1.5 volts of damage"
after which you would get a follow up message
"You're supposed to be amarr doofus! quit hurling projectiles, you're better than lowering yourself to minmatar weapons technology"
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RandomMorph
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Posted - 2006.04.22 08:26:00 -
[91]
Edited by: RandomMorph on 22/04/2006 08:25:59 Thank god the thread poster wasn't part of the Star Wars design team.
Its a game, there are no Mega Pulse Lasers that bolt to the side of a gold spaceship. To apply our current knowledge of physics to a fictional sci fi world is so lame. Get a life.
But maybe in a galaxy far far away.........
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