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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19919
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Posted - 2014.03.13 07:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
No. If you want to do something else, just train it.
Alternatively, just ask them to remove skills entirely since that's effectively what you're suggesting.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19921
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 07:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
Malrikk wrote:Neural remap and skill point remap should remain exclusive of one another. I'm not asking for a change to neural remapping, just the addition of a skill point remap. But I don't believe it should be free, a 10% loss in skill points sounds balanced to me. What you're asking makes attribute remaps pointless since they no longer serve any purpose. In fact, it makes attributes pointless since they no longer serve any purpose.
And no, 10% is not balanced. Bump it up to, say, 80% with an absolute minimum loss of 30M and you might approach something that would actually make it at least remotely punishing to use. But the main problem remains: it just outright removes large portions of the game. To use the age-old copypasta to highlight the most glaring problems with SP remappingGǪ
It removes the point of having skills to begin with. It removes the point of having attributes. It removes attribute implants from the game. It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups. It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character. It removes planning and choice and consequences. It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas. It kills character trading. It massively boosts older characters over new ones. It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19925
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Posted - 2014.03.13 07:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
Malrikk wrote:1) False, this does not remove the point of having skills to begin with. 2) We can already remap attributes, would you say that this removes the point of having them as well? 3) How does it do this? There will always be something to train. 4) Once a year at the cost of a % of your skill points? 5) A characters "uniqueness" doesn't derive from how you spent your time training as you were AFK, doing real life things, etc. Your actions in the game derive a characters uniqueness. 6) I would argue that the real consequence should come from actual in-game choices, like gameplay. But there is a reason I want a 12 month timer on this. 7) Same as above. 8) Character skill points would still be there, if anything it would make high skill point characters more valuable 9) At the same time, the people that are newer to the game will have an opportunity to play with the veterans if they so choose to without worrying about a fake progression wall. 10) How is this "catching up"? This isn't a free allocation of skill points. They still need to be earned. 1. The point of having skills is that if you train it, you have an ability that I don't and I have an ability that you don't. You choose one thing and forego another; I chose the other thing and forego the one. If you can just remap, the choice is reversible and no longer matters.
2. Since attributes are meaningless, remapping them is meaningless as well.
3. Attribute implants are only meaningful if attributes are meaningful. Your idea make attributes meaningless.
4. Once a year is about how often the FOTM changes and the cost is insignificant compared to what you gain.
5. Again, skills and the choices of where the training time has been spent is what sets one character apart from another. The ability to wipe out those choices removes that distinction.
6. Skill choices are still choices of a strategic nature. Remapping removes all consequences of that choice and negates the need to choose to begin with.
7. Being able to finally do X or fly Y is a common goal that people set up. Reaching that goal means giving up others for the time being. Remapping this removes all such goals since you no longer have to choose. All you have to do is amass SP and it'll fill in for anything you'd ever want.
8. Character trading is about builds and now wanting to wait to get a build you didn't choose. Since the choice is gone and you can have anything you like, builds no longer matter and there is no longer any need to wait GÇö just build what you need from what you already have.
9. No, new players will not have the SP buffers that give the older players their flexibility. Remapping gives older players even more flexibility and gives new players absolutely nothing since they have to sit around and wait for their own pile to accumulate.
10. With remapping, the choice of skills are no longer relevant. The only thing that matters is how large your pile of SP is because that GÇö rather than your history of choices GÇö is what decides what you can and can't do. Right now, the only thing that new players can't GÇ£catch upGÇ¥ with is the size of their SP pile, but as luck would have it, right now the size of that pile is meaningless. You are asking for that to be completely reversed. It's the fact that the SP still has to be earned that makes it impossible to catch up.
Your idea is old, and no matter how often it has been suggested, it has always been awful for the exact same reasons: it removes crucial game balancing mechanics; it turns the game into a design it has deliberately and exquisitely avoided; and it solves absolutely nothing. If you want a game where older is inherently and unavoidably better than newer, go play a grinding game; if you want a game where you can do anything, pick one without character building. One of EVE's greatest benefits is that it offers character building without the grind and without the insurmountable old-vs-new imbalance GÇö removing the latter and introducing the former is not beneficial to the game. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19931
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Posted - 2014.03.13 12:03:00 -
[4] - Quote
Prie Mary wrote:Malcanis wrote:Oh absolutely.
I should also be able to use those tokens to remove other people's skillpoints if I don't like them. That would be even more popular, make CCP even more money and as an extra bonus, it would of course benefit new players. Walking talking proof the CSM is a complete joke Yes, Malc has a knack for being funny as well as a good representative. Malc for CSM9GÇô40! GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19946
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Posted - 2014.03.13 15:14:00 -
[5] - Quote
Owen Levanth wrote:Then I have a counter-proposal for you: Make it so you can only remap once per year, and you lose 10% of the skill points you remap, instead of losing 10% of all your skill points. This would be better, I think. Remap too much and you lose a lot of progress. Remap a little bit and only lose a little bit. Much more balanced this way.
At that level, the penalty remains meaningless until and unless you have over 230M SP, at which point you don't need any more anyway since you can already fit everything you'd ever need into your build.
That is why the idea must have a minimum SP loss and must make you lose a large majority of your SP regardless of how much you have: because otherwise, there is no reason whatsoever not to abuse it to hell and back. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19952
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 15:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
Owen Levanth wrote:Also I think you didn't think my proposal really through. Every time you remap, you lose 10% of those skill points you want to remap. Every single time. Which means you lose more and more the more often you remap. There is no way to abuse this, except if you define abuse as "******* yourself over". In a year, you earn 23,652,000 SP. If you have 236,520,000 SP and remap all of them, you lose 10% and up with as many SP as you had at the start of the year. You lose nothing and you can fit everything you'd ever need into that buffer. So there's no reason to ever do anything other than remap your full amount because you will never operate at a loss.
Your best option is always to abuse the hell out of it and get as much free SP as you possibly could to be ready for any and all eventualities. The only way to **** yourself over is to not remap as soon as possible as much as possible. Thus: 30M or 80% loss, whichever is higher, anything less and it's too good a deal (and I'm not convinced even that is high enough a price). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19954
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 15:58:00 -
[7] - Quote
Owen Levanth wrote:So, problem solved. That's just it: there is no problem.
Remapping is a mechanic meant to patch a design flaw that the EVE skill system has already avoided through other means. It comes from games that are designed around ability lock-in and path restrictions, where remaps are needed to get out of those restrictions. EVE never had those restrictions to begin with so transplanting this GÇ£solutionGÇ¥ from those games only ever manages to transplant the problems those systems have without ever solving anything because, again, the solution was already built into the way skilling in EVE works. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19960
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 17:13:00 -
[8] - Quote
Malrikk wrote:Reading everyone's discussion points on this topic is certainly interesting. Admittedly I don't have much time online in Eve, but it's becoming quite apparent that "skill" in this game is directly tied to how many skills you have, and where they are allocated. Yeah, no. If that were the case, we wouldn't have these people who take a trial alt out on day 1 and murder people to bits. The only thing that makes it GÇ£apparentGÇ¥ to you is your lack of time in the game GÇö reality and history has consistently proven you wrong for over a decade now.
Quote:I see veterans not liking the idea because it will give other people an edge over them, or create an environment of fair play. You need to visit an optometrist then, or possibly get a prescription for some anti-hallucinant. What you're seeing is veterans disliking the idea because they understand the skill system and how the idea will utterly break it to give them massive advantages over other players, removing all semblance of fair play. This idea transforms EVE's skill system from one where GÇ£catching upGÇ¥ isn't even an applicable concept and where newbies will handily destroy opponents of any age into one where the only thing that matters is how high your GÇ£levelGÇ¥ is.
Quote:Even Tippia confirmed this in an earlier post You mean the post that has nothing to do with being a veteran and not, but about making [i]good decisions/i] and not? No, it does not confirm your perception. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Quote:If that is truly the driving "skill" behind being a good combat pilot in Eve Online, then it's time I reevaluate some things. Goods news, then, that it isn't and has never claimed to be (other than by those who think that SP somehow matter and want to alter the skill system because they believe they can benefit from itGǪ).
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19963
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 17:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:I would have to agree with Malrikk here.
It removes the point of having skills to begin with. LOL what?? What is the purpose of having skills and skill training? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19974
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 20:45:00 -
[10] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:This game has no "try before you buy" regarding ships.
Someone may choose to want to fly a Golem. Why a golem? I don't know, this is just an example. Maybe whoever the guy is decided that a golem looked like it would be fun to fly. He could find out by getting any other Ravenkind.
With one (very mild) exception, there is nothing in the game that requires a ton of SP that can't be explored using next to no SP at all. Putting more SP into it just makes it the same thing, but with more SP put into it GÇö the core usage patter or gameplay doesn't change. The mild exception is capships, since they require at least some kind of GÇ£teamworkGÇ¥ (that can be done on your own) but they're still just ships that use the same mechanics as every other ship in the game.
The mistake people make is that they think they have to train a ton of stuff to try an activity out. They don't. That's just a silly myth born out of the same ignorance that gave birth to the GÇ£must train to V to be effectiveGÇ¥ idiocy. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19975
|
Posted - 2014.03.13 21:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
SomethingIs InMyButt wrote:So, you want us to train for a year and a half with multibillion isk implantsbefore we satisfy the bare minimum of having the pleasure of having our sp wiped off our butts? No. What gave you that idea?
Quote:I cant even think of how much is wrong with this. Maybe you should try, because it's not actually very hard: everything you just said was wrong. It can't be any more than that. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
19996
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 00:12:00 -
[12] - Quote
dadar wrote:I am thinking of trying heavy interdictors out can you please point out the low sp way for me to try them out with out training the next 46 days to get into one? Oh, that's easy. Buy a PLEX and sit inGǪ ohGǪ just about anything on the Jita undock while spamming GǣI'm carrying a PLEXGǥ in local.
The speed and cost of your loss should be a good approximation of the HIC experience. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20006
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 01:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
dadar wrote:a new pilot with say lvl 4 small hybrids agasint somebody with say lvl 4 small hybrid speclization is already at a 13% dmg disadvantage.
13% dmg is a huge advantage It's a lot smaller than the advantage the new player has if he puts those small-hybrid SP into electronic warfareGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20013
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 07:01:00 -
[14] - Quote
Sarcasim wrote:Same purpose as having attributes that can be re-mapped. Close, but not quite. There's a crucial difference between attributes and skills: you are not removing you attributes and replacing their effect with something completely different forwards and backwards in history.
If you'll allow some semantic drift for a second, attributes are a mechanism that turn time into SP, whereas skills are effects of that mechanic. Altering the mechanism after the fact does not alter the effect it has already had GÇö only what effect it will have in the future. Altering the effects themselves, however, is akin to turning back time. At that point, the mechanism becomes meaningless because you can always turn back time and get a different, GÇ£betterGÇ¥, result.
The entire mechanism is bypassed and the effects themselves become quite meaningless because they're only a result of the moment rather than of the entire decision-making and SP-gathering process that led you to the result.
Quote:There are many reasons this may not be a good idea, but to imply resetting or re-map of SP makes skills or skill training useless is not one of them. It's not something I imply GÇö it's something I state as a fact because it is a very obvious result of being able to reverse, alter, and remake decisions you've made in the past. Or, wellGǪ to be a bit more pedantic, it doesn't render them useleess GÇö it renders them meaningless because they are infinitely mutable. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20024
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 13:16:00 -
[15] - Quote
Sophia Skinner wrote:What if using this option also reset your learned skills to your noob character racial default, and you had to repurchase skill books? Still causes all the same game-breaking issues. Money is trivially overcome. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20029
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 14:01:00 -
[16] - Quote
Sarcasim wrote:Sorry there is no difference in what you imply or what you state. Both are wrong. Resetting SP would not make them useless or meaningless just because you donGÇÖt agree with it or like the suggestion. That's not what makes them meaningless. What makes them meaningless is that they no longer offer any distinction in abilities between characters and no longer represent a history of decisions made.
If you have a meaningful choice between A or B, and suddenly can have both at any time you want regardless of what you decided before, that initial choice is no longer meaningful. It is no longer an actual choice. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20041
|
Posted - 2014.03.14 18:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
Sarcasim wrote:You wouldn't be able to train for the FOTM if you only get one reset a year or one reset a lifetime, it would be FOTY (flavor of the year) Yes you would. You only put the SP back in that you need GÇö the rest you leave sloshing around in the SP pool for whenever something new comes up. When the FOTM changes, you use those free SP to instantly get it.
This is why the whole idea effectively removes skills completely: any time you want something, you instantly have it. Or, wellGǪ any time an older player wants something, he'll instantly have it. New players are surprise-butt-sexed in every way. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
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