dude, you are confusing as hell:



my whole argument is based on that statement of yours about serious industry happening in nullsec

Shouldn't be to hard to get that through your passive moongoo empire.

Any chance that we have a chance to refund the skills?

The one thing that I am concerned about is the export of minerals from hi sec to null sec. For all hi sec miners whom do not have access to a compression POS, they will continue to refine their ore for transport to trade hubs. That will make it harder for null mineral transporters to collect ore for compressing to haul to null sec.

I could see it being more beneficial either to make the ore compression a station service or a deployable or to make the compression mineral based instead of ore based. Either way, I think that the Rorqual should compress more efficiently that the POS module.

CCP is slowly killing EVE because it nerfs something in every expansion

Although I understand whats being done here, I understand the reasons behind it and i can mostly get behind them this development shows me two problems.

1) yet ANOTHER! way where null sec based power block can outearn the lesser guys. Which basically means anyone not in at least a few hundred man alliance. And don't come whining about the added risk of null-sec mining. If your in bleu area and know how to keep half an eye on directional not all that much risk....no more or less then plexing anyway.

CCP keeps stating that they want more people to move out of high and they keep developing things that make it harder. If you are an upstart and the established local can outgun you 5-1 as well as maintaining a model where they could kill you 1:1 (very badly played by them then) and still run you into the ground economically it is never gonna work.



2) It goes against anything even remote logical universe/lore wise.
Where does it make any logical mundane this-is-how-bussiness-works sense to have the
lawless, underpoliced, high risk, well-****-up-your-station- if-we-can area have a better
industrial complex then well policed, we haven't seen a real distubance in 50 years, your
expensive investments are mostly safe here, environment.
thats like expecting somalian/algerian/whatever-war-torn-no-peace-ever-for-5-years-solid-
ian country to have a better developed undustrial complex then say the Ruhr-area in
Germany.

I could figure out if was possible through high investment to make A (single) station /
system where you could reach the same level or even surpass in rare-ish cases - but not as a
general rule (plonk down any oldpos with any old refinery and work better then a station
system)

the tldr:
I'm fine with all this.

It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense looking at it from any other perspective then helping out groups that are least in need of any help (really the whole compression improvement would have gone a long way on its own). It help already hulking powerblocks be unbeatable in yet anotehr way.

It wrecks lore and logic.

that all

If you actually read the post you would see thats not the point im making as well as i already got you covered in the first sentence. (Hey look at that- another powerblock-er who isnt satiesfied with already being able to outgun and outearn everybody else already )

Any chance that we have a chance to refund the skills?

Tell me, why would you do mining and refining in null if high sec offers the exact same reward?

2) It goes against anything even remote logical universe/lore wise.

"Damn capsuleers, they're at it again..."

"yet ANOTHER! way where null sec based power block can outearn the lesser guys."


So what was that comment all about if not about null having an advantage and reason to mine and refine in null rather than high sec?

Consider the future vision of capsuleers gaining more control over the EVE universe. Consider the worried looking CONCORD guy looking even more worried in the next trailer.
From here

Doesnt the ore varieties available in null answer this in some part atleast on the mining side of things?

Ice being the exception, as a flat commodity available everywhere in predictable location and duration.
(Hopefully something to be addressed eventually)

On the refining side of things I agree player run installations should have an incentive over NPC stations.

Why cant anyone post anything anymore whithout a goon pikinese yapping at their ankles?

The answer to your question is in the text itself. And its META to this partocular change.
Perhaps you need another bit of pre-chewing of the contained info: Reason to mine and refine in null....uhm logistics (one could make a point that moving ore isnt too difficult/expensive- its not difficult/expensive enough)? Doing other stuff than blob fighting?

This change to refining means that mining in null for low ends is an attractive option and makes building things in null a lot eaiser. It also means we can import big volumes of minerals from high sec easier and for less cost which again, is going to be a big help for producing in null.

Doesnt this create a reverse impetus though?

At the same time as mining becomes more profitable and efficient in null, due to logistic ease of refining the ore at a higher efficiency locally, with less transport involved, the compression of high-sec ores and transporting those to the same high efficiency null refineries is also added.

Why not just continue mining in high-sec with alts in safety, compressing and shipping to null-sec refineries?

Why cant anyone post anything anymore whithout a goon pikinese yapping at their ankles?

The answer to your question is in the text itself. And its META to this partocular change.
Perhaps you need another bit of pre-chewing of the contained info: Reason to mine and refine in null....uhm logistics (one could make a point that moving ore isnt too difficult/expensive- its not difficult/expensive enough)? Doing other stuff than blob fighting?

Im already regretting posting again - it always ends the same.

However - we do have a post by someone who did some thinking..

Consider the future vision of capsuleers gaining more control over the EVE universe. Consider the worried looking CONCORD guy looking even more worried in the next trailer.

Yep which is why i said i can understand if you upgrade some systems to a god-that-much-billions-hub in zero (smack in your blue space) i dont mind. Perfectly understable if you consider the annoying tendencies of capuleers in New Eden.

Thats not what is happening now. Anyone who plunks down a simpelpos with a simple reactor is already doing better then the these-systems-have-been-developed-for-hundres of-years empire systems (who if try and measureit out a bit should equal or overpower all but the largest null sec allianes in economic development of things...)

A 20% bonus to your income right on your doorstep is worth the risk.

Sov landlords are the only ones who "may" gain anything here.
Landlords install refining upgrades and renters request - landlords up the rent to pay for upgrades.
Win win with moderate outlay and no risk.

Yes, but null gets that 20% bonus regardless of where the ore/ice originates from.

Though there is an increased incentive to mine in null, that same time spent mining can also be spent instead in hauling compressed high-sec ore/ice for the same 20% bonus in null refineries.

The time to mine the stuff doesn't go away. Transport time and cash however does

The time to mine stuff goes away when you simply buy the ice/ore in high-sec (compressed or not) and ship that.

You still get the 20% increased yield upon arrival.

The time to mine is simply replaced by time in hauling, and its "faster" to buy a bulk of ice/ore (compressed or not) and move it, than it is to actually mine it.

By leveraging the increased refine yield, you can essentially eliminate the need to mine in the first place.

Mine stuff in highsec, transport from highsec to null station, transport from refinery to forge, transport to market

Mine in null next door to refinery, transport to refinery, transport from refinery to forge, transport to market.


Which one of these has lower costs and takes less time?

Mine stuff in highsec, transport from highsec to null station, transport from refinery to forge, transport to market

Mine in null next door to refinery, transport to refinery, transport from refinery to forge, transport to market.

Which one of these has lower costs and takes less time?

Not true.

* This will free up manufacturing slots in HS now used to compress minerals into ammo and modules in the compression process.

* This will simplify the market for the miner who now can actually sell there ore to people why specialize in the next step of processing. This frees up their time training skills for compression and transportation, as well as time savings. Right now making ISK from mining requires to master the complete chain and involves nasty, time consuming logistics.

* High sec ICE miners get a boost too, they now can compress the ice, something which before they could not do. This makes moving ICE form high sec islands with no safe connection to a trade hub, more practical to mine.

* Any large industrialist (think freighters and the like) will enjoy more free slots, less hauling minerals. If mineral hauling was outsourced, this now probably not needed anymore. I remember my days i had to ferry like 20 freighters every week full of minerals between Jita and a system a few jumps out. Now this would take maybe 2-3 freighters.

There are some small downsides too, but nothing that cannot be overcome. EVE isn't suppose to be a static stale environment where everything is predictable all the time. That happens not even in RL, except for when your dead.

Stop looking at the downsides you experience if YOU change nothing in your routine. Because if you look at it that way, every change is a bad one, except if it is a plain boost to you, and not to others at the same time.

Depends. If you can mine more Ore in High sec than in 00 sec (safety first ), it can very well be possible that the first choice is faster than the second. All depends.

Miners will be affected little by these changes but the need to, haul - compress - haul - refine - haul - manufacture - haul to market, is all going to add costs.