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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
14965
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Posted - 2014.04.04 21:22:00 -
[61] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Hagika wrote:Gypsio III wrote:Hagika wrote:The potential to hit is better, but in PVP, there is almost always a web,scram from the tackle. You sure about that? Do you carry tackle on your fleets that go without a web and a scram? No...you dont. Can you envisage a situation where you don't want to go into hard tackle range of your opponents?
wat is MJD?
1 Kings 12:11
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Denuo Secus
243
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Posted - 2014.04.04 21:25:00 -
[62] - Quote
Last Wolf wrote:Slightly back off topic... Why do missiles get hard to hit with when you use the short-ranged, high dps version? Guns you get better tracking when you use blasters vs rails, or AC vs arties. But torps vs cruise or HAM vs HML? Nope, you either get long range low dps that has better "tracking" or short range high dps but the "tracking" sucks.
If this same mechanic was applied to guns people would be rage quitting the game. Why are missiles like this?
Bad turret tracking isn't an issue at range. With low transversal you'll still do perfect hits. Missiles on the other side cannot reduce something like transversal to zero. TPs work relieable up to 45+km only. That's a good reason for more missile precision at range. At short range applied missile damage can be buffed by TP and webs. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1162
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Posted - 2014.04.04 22:17:00 -
[63] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Gypsio III wrote:Hagika wrote:Gypsio III wrote:Hagika wrote:The potential to hit is better, but in PVP, there is almost always a web,scram from the tackle. You sure about that? Do you carry tackle on your fleets that go without a web and a scram? No...you dont. Can you envisage a situation where you don't want to go into hard tackle range of your opponents? wat is MJD?
A battleship module, or a deployable with a 1 min activation timer. |
Gregor Parud
413
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Posted - 2014.04.04 23:03:00 -
[64] - Quote
Hagika wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Hagika wrote:So with this (hopefully) adding of a high dps pirate missile platform, perhaps CCP might be nice enough to find time to fix some more missile issue as well. Torps need to hit better and T2 torps need to hit smaller targets a little better as well. You really are a ******* ******** idiot, aren't you. You start a thread with hilarious nonsense, people tell you you're indeed stating hilarious nonsense, a CSM member explains to you that you're being hilariously wrong and yet even in your last post you keep at it. Hagika wrote:By the way, im a gun user. For a "gun user" your posting history sure is quite full of missile whine posts, like 99% of them. Care to stop with the personal attacks? I started a thread about having a high DPS pirate missile ship, since there isnt one. Obviously you dont care to read. The CSM posted on how cruise missiles were buffed, some how making the new navy raven some magical ship, in which he later stated he has never tested it in PVP. Yet it is never used in PVP. I then later stated lets get back on topic. Many of my post are about missiles, now if you can manage to stop acting like a 13 year old, care to explain how missiles are so good? and how Im so wrong about them? Oh wait, you cant. You prefer to act like a child.
They're not used for several reasons:
- short range BS are very limited in use in pvp - torps aren't amazing at applying their dps without help - "caldari/missiles suck so we're not even going to try and use it"
Has NOTHING to do with the ship itself apart from being a BS running torps, the ship is FINE. Yet you keep at it.
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Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
285
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Posted - 2014.04.05 07:50:00 -
[65] - Quote
Last Wolf wrote:Slightly back off topic... Why do missiles get hard to hit with when you use the short-ranged, high dps version? Guns you get better tracking when you use blasters vs rails, or AC vs arties. But torps vs cruise or HAM vs HML? Nope, you either get long range low dps that has better "tracking" or short range high dps but the "tracking" sucks.
If this same mechanic was applied to guns people would be rage quitting the game. Why are missiles like this?
HAMs have better explosion radius and explosion velocity stats than HMLs. Torps indeed are worse than Cruises in the "tracking" department, have in mind thought that this is not the only discrepancy in the weapon systems. For example, heavy beam lasers (the long range medium turret version) give more DPS than heavy pulse lasers.
For all its worth, I think CCP has mentioned somewhere that Torps will be reviewed and rebalanced sometime in the future. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
11030
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Posted - 2014.04.05 10:07:00 -
[66] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote: For all its worth, I think CCP has mentioned somewhere that Torps will be reviewed and rebalanced sometime in the future.
I would both fear and look forwards to such a thing. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Gregor Parud
413
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Posted - 2014.04.05 10:25:00 -
[67] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Bertrand Butler wrote: For all its worth, I think CCP has mentioned somewhere that Torps will be reviewed and rebalanced sometime in the future.
I would both fear and look forwards to such a thing.
A gaggle of typhoons? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
11030
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Posted - 2014.04.05 10:27:00 -
[68] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:baltec1 wrote:Bertrand Butler wrote: For all its worth, I think CCP has mentioned somewhere that Torps will be reviewed and rebalanced sometime in the future.
I would both fear and look forwards to such a thing. A gaggle of typhoons?
An unkindness of ravens.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
285
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Posted - 2014.04.05 10:28:00 -
[69] - Quote
Me too. To tell you the truth, I think torps, HMLs and capital missile launchers do need a look at, but the amount of player rage currently associated with those is a bit disproportionate with the subjective status the weapons have...
For example, torps could do with a slight buff to range via higher missile velocity, and maybe a small (5% or less) reduction to explo radius (they already have more explo vel than Cruises btw). Most people tend to think that torps are horribly imbalanced though, and that such a change would be entirely inadequate. |
Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
39
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Posted - 2014.04.05 12:20:00 -
[70] - Quote
there is nothing to fear at any missle rebalance because we allways end with a piece of junk with a very limited usage - gone are the times where missle ships caused panic |
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Gregor Parud
413
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Posted - 2014.04.05 16:35:00 -
[71] - Quote
Bertrand Butler wrote:Me too. To tell you the truth, I think torps, HMLs and capital missile launchers do need a look at, but the amount of player rage currently associated with those is a bit disproportionate with the subjective status the weapons have...
For example, torps could do with a slight buff to range via higher missile velocity, and maybe a small (5% or less) reduction to explo radius (they already have more explo vel than Cruises btw). Most people tend to think that torps are horribly imbalanced though, and that such a change would be entirely inadequate.
Torps do need some love indeed, not much but a little bit is warranted. HML can get damage if they lower its hilarious range. Cap missiles are just dumb atm, showcasing a total lack of understanding of the DEV who worked on them.
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
763
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Posted - 2014.04.05 17:22:00 -
[72] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:baltec1 wrote:Bertrand Butler wrote: For all its worth, I think CCP has mentioned somewhere that Torps will be reviewed and rebalanced sometime in the future.
I would both fear and look forwards to such a thing. A gaggle of typhoons? An unkindness of ravens.
Not sure if you knew this:
A flock of crows is also known as a "Murder of crows".
As to missiles. I agree that the Heavy missile nerf seemed like a double tap to my Tengu and Drake hulls. It has affected my game play actually. I have tried to avoid this thread overall, but in fact I'd like to see Heavies restored in full, and a little love to torps. I want to see the META improve for ships bigger than cruisers and frigates.
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Gregor Parud
413
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Posted - 2014.04.05 18:05:00 -
[73] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:but in fact I'd like to see Heavies restored in full
No.
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Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1016
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Posted - 2014.04.05 19:17:00 -
[74] - Quote
Denuo Secus wrote:Last Wolf wrote:Slightly back off topic... Why do missiles get hard to hit with when you use the short-ranged, high dps version? Guns you get better tracking when you use blasters vs rails, or AC vs arties. But torps vs cruise or HAM vs HML? Nope, you either get long range low dps that has better "tracking" or short range high dps but the "tracking" sucks.
If this same mechanic was applied to guns people would be rage quitting the game. Why are missiles like this? Bad turret tracking isn't an issue at range. With low transversal you'll still do perfect hits. Missiles on the other side cannot reduce something like transversal to zero. TPs work relieable up to 45+km only. That's a good reason for more missile precision at range. At short range applied missile damage can be buffed by TP and webs.
Too bad % bonus are kinda bad when applied to small numbers like the base sig of a hard to hit ship. |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
765
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Posted - 2014.04.05 19:37:00 -
[75] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:RavenPaine wrote:but in fact I'd like to see Heavies restored in full No.
They were never OP. What exactly do you think was OP about them? |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
11031
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Posted - 2014.04.05 21:30:00 -
[76] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:RavenPaine wrote:but in fact I'd like to see Heavies restored in full No. They were never OP. What exactly do you think was OP about them?
Close range damage at long range. There was a reason why everyone flew drakes and tengu and the missiles are a big part of it. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Hagika
Hipsters In Space
219
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Posted - 2014.04.05 23:18:00 -
[77] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:RavenPaine wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:RavenPaine wrote:but in fact I'd like to see Heavies restored in full No. They were never OP. What exactly do you think was OP about them? Close range damage at long range. There was a reason why everyone flew drakes and tengu and the missiles were a big part of it.
The drake was mainly used for its ease for a newbie to fly and its massive tank. Rails,Beams hit out that range with better dps and instant damage. If heavy missiles were not in game, the drake would have still been used.
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baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
11032
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Posted - 2014.04.05 23:24:00 -
[78] - Quote
Hagika wrote:baltec1 wrote:RavenPaine wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:RavenPaine wrote:but in fact I'd like to see Heavies restored in full No. They were never OP. What exactly do you think was OP about them? Close range damage at long range. There was a reason why everyone flew drakes and tengu and the missiles were a big part of it. The drake was mainly used for its ease for a newbie to fly and its massive tank. Rails,Beams hit out that range with better dps and instant damage. If heavy missiles were not in game, the drake would have still been used.
They were far better than the other medium long range weapons and able to play with the long range battleships while sporting a robust tank. Without the firepower they would not have seen use to the extent they were.
We will not be getting them back. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
WaterMarks
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
16
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Posted - 2014.04.05 23:35:00 -
[79] - Quote
Hagika wrote:baltec1 wrote:RavenPaine wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:RavenPaine wrote:but in fact I'd like to see Heavies restored in full No. They were never OP. What exactly do you think was OP about them? Close range damage at long range. There was a reason why everyone flew drakes and tengu and the missiles were a big part of it. The drake was mainly used for its ease for a newbie to fly and its massive tank. Rails,Beams hit out that range with better dps and instant damage. If heavy missiles were not in game, the drake would have still been used.
Well as soon as rails and beams get selectable. Damage you argument will be valid. -Fly Reckless- |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
765
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 00:02:00 -
[80] - Quote
Currently, close range fits compare like this. These are ships I have sitting in dock.
Hurricane, 6 220 Vulcan II, 2 gyro's, no damage rigs, no implants, Hobgoblin II's. 612 DPS Same Cane, 425 version. 640 DPS Harbinger, 6 Heavy Pulse II, Imp Navy crystals, 2 heat sinks, no damage rigs, No implants, Hammerhead II's. 700 DPS Brutix, (A Brutix ffs) 6 ELECTRON blasters, zero mag stabs, no rigs, no implants, Hammerhead II's. 560 DPS Drake, My current fit; 6 heavy II launchers, Caldari Scourge missiles, 2 BCU, 2 +3 Implants, no rigs. 453 DPS
Launchers are about 75 DPS each, so the old fit would have hit 525. Subtract my 6% worth of implants and that would be right at 500ish Or add 6% to the other fits and you'd put most of them in or over the 675 DPS range
Also, most Drake pilots have less than perfect skills. 75% of those Drake pilots people were complaining about, were doing less than 500 DPS My point is: The Drake NEVER did close range damage from long range.
Drake strong points were tank, cost, noob friendly, and it wouldn't be called primary. Yes, range was a strong point, but range also = no tackle. Arty Canes would kill them, anything fast could outrun them. Those are all attributes of the ship, not the weapon system. Drake DPS was always an LOL.
NOW: Now almost everything can kill them before they kill it. It's DPS was cut by 1 launcher, and the range was cut as well. So if you tackle one, it's dead. Closer range from heavies means Drake is just a bad ship to fly now.
Startin' to feel like a rant or something... and way off topic. Just making a point. |
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Gregor Parud
414
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Posted - 2014.04.06 01:13:00 -
[81] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:Currently, close range fits compare like this. These are ships I have sitting in dock.
Hurricane, 6 220 Vulcan II, 2 gyro's, no damage rigs, no implants, Hobgoblin II's. 612 DPS Same Cane, 425 version. 640 DPS Harbinger, 6 Heavy Pulse II, Imp Navy crystals, 2 heat sinks, no damage rigs, No implants, Hammerhead II's. 700 DPS Brutix, (A Brutix ffs) 6 ELECTRON blasters, zero mag stabs, no rigs, no implants, Hammerhead II's. 560 DPS Drake, My current fit; 6 heavy II launchers, Caldari Scourge missiles, 2 BCU, 2 +3 Implants, no rigs. 453 DPS
Launchers are about 75 DPS each, so the old fit would have hit 525. Subtract my 6% worth of implants and that would be right at 500ish Or add 6% to the other fits and you'd put most of them in or over the 675 DPS range
Also, most Drake pilots have less than perfect skills. 75% of those Drake pilots people were complaining about, were doing less than 500 DPS My point is: The Drake NEVER did close range damage from long range.
Drake strong points were tank, cost, noob friendly, and it wouldn't be called primary. Yes, range was a strong point, but range also = no tackle. Arty Canes would kill them, anything fast could outrun them. Those are all attributes of the ship, not the weapon system. Drake DPS was always an LOL.
NOW: Now almost everything can kill them before they kill it. It's DPS was cut by 1 launcher, and the range was cut as well. So if you tackle one, it's dead. Closer range from heavies means Drake is just a bad ship to fly now.
Startin' to feel like a rant or something... and way off topic. Just making a point.
Why the **** are you comparing short range pulses and blasters with long range HML? Also, your "a Brutix ffs" shows you really have no clue whatsoever about ships.
Here's a nice exercise for you; Figure out which of those does the most dps at 60km. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
11033
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 01:13:00 -
[82] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:Currently, close range fits compare like this. These are ships I have sitting in dock.
Hurricane, 6 220 Vulcan II, 2 gyro's, no damage rigs, no implants, Hobgoblin II's. 612 DPS Same Cane, 425 version. 640 DPS Harbinger, 6 Heavy Pulse II, Imp Navy crystals, 2 heat sinks, no damage rigs, No implants, Hammerhead II's. 700 DPS Brutix, (A Brutix ffs) 6 ELECTRON blasters, zero mag stabs, no rigs, no implants, Hammerhead II's. 560 DPS Drake, My current fit; 6 heavy II launchers, Caldari Scourge missiles, 2 BCU, 2 +3 Implants, no rigs. 453 DPS
Launchers are about 75 DPS each, so the old fit would have hit 525. Subtract my 6% worth of implants and that would be right at 500ish Or add 6% to the other fits and you'd put most of them in or over the 675 DPS range
Also, most Drake pilots have less than perfect skills. 75% of those Drake pilots people were complaining about, were doing less than 500 DPS My point is: The Drake NEVER did close range damage from long range.
Drake strong points were tank, cost, noob friendly, and it wouldn't be called primary. Yes, range was a strong point, but range also = no tackle. Arty Canes would kill them, anything fast could outrun them. Those are all attributes of the ship, not the weapon system. Drake DPS was always an LOL.
NOW: Now almost everything can kill them before they kill it. It's DPS was cut by 1 launcher, and the range was cut as well. So if you tackle one, it's dead. Closer range from heavies means Drake is just a bad ship to fly now.
Startin' to feel like a rant or something... and way off topic. Just making a point.
So why are we comparing long range missiles with short range guns? Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Cayenne Agni
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2014.04.06 01:46:00 -
[83] - Quote
I'm pretty new, but i always thought the main counter to Drake fleet or any of the missles for that matter was speed. Simple velocity at that range reduces applied damage by alot since the explosion velocity is so low.
Perhaps i need to learn something but what is the skilled up normal (ie not going crazy in the rigs) explosion velocity for HM? i remember anything going faster than about 250 was taking less damage. likely I'm wrong. |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
766
|
Posted - 2014.04.06 04:05:00 -
[84] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:RavenPaine wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:RavenPaine wrote:but in fact I'd like to see Heavies restored in full No. They were never OP. What exactly do you think was OP about them? Close range damage at long range. There was a reason why everyone flew drakes and tengu and the missiles were a big part of it.
I compared them because baltec1 wrote this.... |
Vinyl 41
Perkone Academy
41
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Posted - 2014.04.06 05:15:00 -
[85] - Quote
we can argue about which nerf killed the pvp drake - the hull nerf or the missle system nerf - i can leave with the nerfed hull but heavies rly need to have better base damage ( and maybe some higher base speed with reduced flight time - but this change could be used with several other missles ) |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
359
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Posted - 2014.04.06 06:43:00 -
[86] - Quote
WaterMarks wrote: Well as soon as rails and beams get selectable. Damage you argument will be valid.
Drakes don't have selectable damage. They can only do kinetic.
That is, unless you want to be doing even less damage than you already are. At least rails and beams each do two types of damage, so if rats are strong against one you'll still have another. Drakes are basically stuck with kinetic, so if the rats you're shooting are strong against kinetic you're basically SOL. |
Gregor Parud
415
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Posted - 2014.04.06 07:58:00 -
[87] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:baltec1 wrote:RavenPaine wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:RavenPaine wrote:but in fact I'd like to see Heavies restored in full No. They were never OP. What exactly do you think was OP about them? Close range damage at long range. There was a reason why everyone flew drakes and tengu and the missiles were a big part of it. I compared them because baltec1 wrote this.... Edit here: The sh*tty Brutix is a duel rep fit that I used to pirate with. It could tank gate guns, tank incoming, Hard tackle, and still get top damage on occasion. The reason I still have it is because, the last one never died. I fly a perfect Brutix/Astarte. I trained specific for them. My point was, this one was a tier 1 BC with no damage mods, and electron guns fitted. It out DPS'd heavy missiles though. The response was all about baltecs statement. Post with your main or show me all the ships you're so awesome with. I can't find 1 kill for your current character. 60 km... The only Heavy missile that will reach 60 is the Navy Version. Furies travel a fairly lame 47 and precision travel 31. again: The T2 ammo for Caldari's long range medium weapon platform, travels 47km with max skills
Yeah, it just happens to get a 10% damage bonus, no biggie.
No, the 60km comes from a Drake using T1 HML; You think high dps T2 missile ammo for a medium gun only reaching 47km is "fairly lame"? The T2 missile ammo is damage based, T2 turret ammo is range based, how can you not see this overly obvious fact?
Are you a ******* ****** or just trolling intentionally. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
11033
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Posted - 2014.04.06 10:45:00 -
[88] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:
Yeah, it just happens to get a 10% damage bonus, no biggie.
No, the 60km comes from a Drake using T1 HML; You think high dps T2 missile ammo for a medium launcher only reaching 47km is "fairly lame"? The T2 missile ammo is damage based, T2 range turret ammo is range based, how can you not see this overly obvious fact?
Are you a ******* ****** or just trolling intentionally.
He wants his out of whack heavies back. Same as how some want to see the pre nano nerf vaga back and the drone assist domi and carrier fleets. Even now, a heavy caracal will out range anything else in its class with more punch at that range. A drake today will also out damage a rail Brutix past 22km.
If you want high damage from your missiles you use close range missiles. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
Gregor Parud
416
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Posted - 2014.04.06 11:56:00 -
[89] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:
Yeah, it just happens to get a 10% damage bonus, no biggie.
No, the 60km comes from a Drake using T1 HML; You think high dps T2 missile ammo for a medium launcher only reaching 47km is "fairly lame"? The T2 missile ammo is damage based, T2 range turret ammo is range based, how can you not see this overly obvious fact?
Are you a ******* ****** or just trolling intentionally.
He wants his out of whack heavies back. Same as how some want to see the pre nano nerf vaga back and the drone assist domi and carrier fleets. Even now, a heavy caracal will out range anything else in its class with more punch at that range. A drake today will also out damage a rail Brutix past 22km. If you want high damage from your missiles you use close range missiles.
You mean he's a ******* ******, noted :)
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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
766
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Posted - 2014.04.06 15:53:00 -
[90] - Quote
Somewhere along the way, A Drake has seriously molested you guys. Sorry that you were permanently scarred from his 450 DPS. It must be awful to have to live in fear of every Drake pilot in eve. There are so many of them. I can't even imagine the horror.
Best of luck in your speedy recovery. |
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