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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 21 post(s) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20382
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Posted - 2014.04.01 18:56:00 -
[1] - Quote
PinkKnife wrote:For a mix of the two. It is now easier to decide on the spectrum which is more important, speed or DPS. If you want only dps, go Gallente, if you want only speed go Minmatar, if you want mostly speed go Amarr, and if you want mostly DPS go Caldari.
Not that hard. That's the problem: it's a mediocre mix of two things with no advantage in either. That is exactly what we already have and it is already not working. Making it not work more consistently and evenly doesn't fix the problem that it doesn't work.
The problem here is that they're trying to balance four drones with just two stats. That means that we will have two drones that matter GÇö the ones that max out one of stats GÇö and two that (still) don't GÇö the ones that offer no advantage. To have that kind of difference-balance, they need more relevant stats so that the two irrelevant drones have an area to excel in. Fundamentally, the problem is this pretty silly notion that they must do different amounts of damage and that this notion ignores the fact that resistances and damage profiles already does that.
Amarr drones will be pointless against fast target GÇö you'll want minny drones for that for the simple reason that if you pick too slow a drone, it doesn't matter whether it does the right damage type or not since it won't catch the target. Amarr drones will still be pointless against EM-weak targets GÇö resist weaknesses can only be relied upon against rats, and all EM-weak rats are also thermal-weak, so you'll still want gallente drones against those. Likewise, Caldari drones will be pointless against tough targets GÇö you'll want the most damage against those and that's still Gallente drones, and you gain no real advantage from getting to the tough target slightly faster. And for kinetic-weak targets, it's the same problem with Caldari drones as for Amarr drones GÇö it's only an advantage if you can reliably predict it, which means it's only relevant against rats and kn-weak rats will be thermal-weak anyway. Hell, even now, there's an actual advantage in using Caldari drones against kn-weak rats and look how popular they are as a resultGǪ At no point will these weak drones offer any kind of compelling advantage or useful application over the two races that max out one of the stats. Middle-of-the-road mediocrity is not a convincing selling point over specialised excellence.
So as long as they keep that same wrong-headed design patter, where four drones are squeezed into a two-dimensional continuum, two of those drones will always be meaningless. There's really no reason to separate the drones in damage output at all. Just make them do the same damage and let resists matter, and then find three other characteristics that can be used as a trade-off for speed, and where each drone race has its own distinct advantage. If they can't find three characteristics, then skip the speed differentiation as well, and just let the damage type be the only differentiator. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20382
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 19:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
Callic Veratar wrote:Rather than comparing pure numbers, also consider you're switching damage types. Yes, the Amarr drones are slower than Minmatar, but they'll do a much better job at hitting low EM resist. If you're making a damage type choice, it's most likely because you're going after rats. If you're going after rats, you don't need the speed, and Gallente drones will do more damage (since all EM-weak rats are also Th-weak).
If you're going after a fast target, which is the better choice: a drone that has a higher chance of catching the target but which might do slightly less damage, or a drone which might not catch the target, but does more damage on the off chance that it does. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20386
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Posted - 2014.04.01 19:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
PinkKnife wrote:Speak for yourself, I use drones that are going to be the best overall for whatever situations I expect. Amarr or Caldari drones sound perfect for not getting caught in the tracking woes of Hobgoblins and the meager DPS of warriors. But that's just it: for the situations you can expect, EM is still worthless and Kn will be no different than it currently isGǪ and as the stats show, it is pretty much worthless as well.
You go for best in class. GÇ£Kind of ok at this, and meh at the otherGÇ¥ will never be best in class.
The only way to solve that is to increase the number of classes or to remove them altogether and just make it the role of the die if you picked the right type for what you meet. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20387
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Posted - 2014.04.01 19:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
Querns wrote:Moneta Curran wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:boohoo Must you consistently whine about everything? It is a little strange that in every single game adjustment thread, he just happens to be performing the PvE activity that gets hit the most by the changes. It's also strange how every thing he complains about shows that he's doing whatever he's doing in the most inefficient way (cf. the above whine about having to ditch heavies in favour of sentries, even though sentries were always better). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20387
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Posted - 2014.04.01 19:44:00 -
[5] - Quote
PinkKnife wrote:So, the logical thing to do is using something in the middle of the road unless you know specifically what, exactly, you're going to be fighting, in which case you can fit to suit your specific application. You don't need math, just plain logic and an understand that you can't pick every engagement. As I said, it isn't nearly as hard as people want to make it out to be.
Fast frigates, pick minmatar, regular pick cal/amarr, heavier, pick gal. Unsure, pick cal/amarr for a mix of speed and dps. GǪbut the problem is that you never know what, exactly, you're going after so picking a middle-of-the-road option is never the best idea.
If you expect fast ships, you want fast drones. You don't want to gamble that your higher-damage drone will be fast enough, because if you're wrong you lose all your damage. So you pick the highest-speed drone and, at worst, you lose a little damage. The same for the other end of the spectrum: do you gamble a guaranteed loss of damage output against the potential loss of damage if they accidentally have the wrong resists (because at that end of the spectrum, speed won't be a factor no matter what). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20388
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Posted - 2014.04.01 19:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Harvey James wrote:we also need more drones skills
- tracking - orbit speed - sig reduction maybe? - falloff range Legacy code magic 8 ball says........ No. Since there are already modules that provide (most of) those bonuses, there should be something to hook into at least. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20388
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Posted - 2014.04.01 20:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Ccp why you hate medium drones?
Both medium and heavy have the same sig resolution. 125m That's not so much hating mediums as giving silly preferential treatment to heavies. 125m is exactly what you'd expect from a medium-sized weapon. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20388
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 20:07:00 -
[8] - Quote
PinkKnife wrote:You might, but the speed difference between minmatar and amarr is relatively small now.
4620 vs 5040. Also considering Amarr have a better multiplier 1.68 vs 1.56. GǪand against anything travelling at 4700m/s (which a lot of ships you'd want to sic fast drones at do), that better multiplier might as well be 0.0 for all the benefit it brings.
Again, the kind of differentiation they're doing is what's already in the game. It has already failed. It has failed because it's an inherently flawed design pattern that assumes that mediocrity will somehow have value. People can already go for a hybrid approach. They don't because it's not a good approach. The devs need three more classes so each drone race can be best in class (and be equal in damage), or they need to have no classes at all.
Hell, they could even keep it at two and then invent two different ways of being best in class for those two so that, once again, all four races are best in class. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20389
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Posted - 2014.04.01 20:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
Oh, actual question: will the GÇ£could use it before, can use it afterGÇ¥ rule for skill replacements apply to these changes? You mention that T2 sentries, for instance, will require the racial spec skills, which they currently don't. Will those be handed out in the cases where people haven't trained the spec skills but can currently use those T2 drones? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20390
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 20:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:The wrecking of T2 sentry damage was another direct attack on PVE income, primarily high income, though I have used T2 Gardes in low sec many a time. So don't expect this guy to back out the damage nerf. Why would they? And what's so special about PvE that it should not receive balance adjustments every now and then? Also, you realise that it's a continuation of an GÇ£attackGÇ¥ on PvP where sentries have been dominant for a very long while now, right? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20392
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Posted - 2014.04.01 21:02:00 -
[11] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:Sounded to me like they were going to buff T1 sentry damage to T2 levels, not sure where people are complaining about a damage nerf... It's like this:
Before: Garde I GÇö 50 damage +ù1.60 modifier +ù2 (drone interfacing) +ù1.25 (sentry interfacing) = 200 damage. Garde II GÇö 50 damage +ù1.92 modifier +ù2 (drone interfacing) +ù1.25 (sentry interfacing) = 240 damage.
After: Garde I GÇö 64 damage +ù1.7 modifier +ù 1.5 (drone interfacing) +ù1.25 (sentry interfacing) = 204 damage. Garde II GÇö 64 damage +ù1.7 modifier +ù1.5 (drone interfacing) +ù1.25 (sentry interfacing) +ù1.1 (gal.drone spec) = 224.4 damage.
T1 becomes 2% better at maxed skills; T2 becomes 6.5% worse at max skills (and max skills requires more SP). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20392
|
Posted - 2014.04.01 21:05:00 -
[12] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Chris Winter wrote:Sounded to me like they were going to buff T1 sentry damage to T2 levels, not sure where people are complaining about a damage nerf... Umm...removal of a 20% improvement of T2's over T1's is NOT a buff of T1's. GǪbut the buff to T1s is a buff to T1s. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20398
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Posted - 2014.04.01 22:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
Methonash Qorranto wrote:Currently, going from sentries to heavies yields an average DPS loss of 4.48%. After the patch, going from sentries to heavies yields an average DPS loss of 10.57%.
This is a [very] significant change--in effect, it is like strapping a NEGATIVE 6 damage implant to your sentry drone loadout in comparison to what current sentry drone users are working with. GǪon the other hand, sentries have damage rigs and don't have to spend ages flying around the grid before engaging their targets. A bit less damage seems like a fair trade-off for those advantages. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20413
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 08:02:00 -
[14] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Bingo. Another huge nerf to drone users , and this is weeks after the destruction in use of the Omni. It's not a huge nerf by any stretch of the imagination, and it comes on the heels of numerous drone buffs that made them silly effective against everything. This change simply puts them back in a more sane place, both in terms of damage output and damage application.
Quote:But remember, this is the same guy that brought us the AI change that drove us from heavies to sentries in the first place. No, it's not. Heavies were always awful and sentries were always better GÇö the introduction of rat AI did not change this. If you were using heavies before Level1 AI, you were doing it wrong.
Quote:Plus, I would just love to hear what some gun jockey would say if he had to train a 19 day skill for each ammo type. Oh, they have to train a whole lot more than that to get each racial variation of their size category. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20413
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 08:06:00 -
[15] - Quote
Methonash Qorranto wrote:So, most folks aren't aware of this, but there is a cross-penalty between SDAs and DDAs: since DDAs objectively offer more of a bonus, a decent droneboat aiming for maximum DPS will throw at least 2-4 of those on. Everyone knows this because it's how everything else in the game works. The point you're missing is that sentries always had a way to overcome (and even surpass) that gap to heavies, even when they really shouldn't be able to do so. This change simply ensures that the gap is unsurmountable, which is a good thing for inter-drone balance.
Quote:That's like a DPS loanshark coming up to a sentry pilot, beating the stuffing out of them with a nerfbat, and then saying, "Well, look at all these tactical advantages you've had - guess what? You ALREADY paid for them before (what with having less DPS than heavies), but now you're going to have to pay for them - AGAIN - BY LOSING EVEN MORE DPS!" No, it's like saying GÇ£hey, if you want a specific set of advantages, train a specific set of dronesGÇ¥. Sentries will no longer be the best choice in every way. They still maintain their advantage in immediacy but pay for it by having ever so slightly less damage. This is a phenomenon called balance. It is a good thing. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20413
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 08:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
Barton Breau wrote:I guess this argument would fly much better if we had a subcap ship with 1100+ paper dps with just drones. If I were to guess, that would probably be the thing: with additions such as faction DDAs being made, we'd start seeing ships doing exactly that and also being able to deliver a couple hundred more with regular guns on top. So the top end would have to be toned down a bit to not make all the 125mb bandwidth ships (including the Ishtar) downright silly.
So in essence, to allow room for further general buffs, the baseline has to be adjusted a bit downwards to ensure that the end result remains somewhat sane.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20420
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 14:19:00 -
[17] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:I will cease with the defence of casual high sec players when their defence is not needed anymore. Nothing of what's being done here has anything to do with highsec players, though, so I don't understand why you're bringing them up.
Quote:Finally, splitting the small / medium skill paths kills the new players in the Algos and Vexor, to name a couple ships. Not really, no, since new players will benefit from the much higher base damages they get initially with their training. They'll be far better off than they currently are and we don't yet know what the skill ranks will be for those new skills.
TrouserDeagle wrote:caldari drones already are competitive, I don't know where you're getting this frmo. and you really should do everything I suggest re: drones, because I am right. He's getting it from the fact that they aren't being used. Their competitive edge is far too small and far too situational to be worth it for most players, which is why they are seeing about as much usage as the completely useless Amarr drones. People go for a general best in class, and situational advantages of any other drones areGǪ wellGǪ situational. So those drones are discarded in favour of guaranteed results.
It's much the same reason why the split-damage GÇ£advancedGÇ¥ drones never took off: because split damage inherently means less damage. So why on earth would you get a far more expensive drone that is much worse at its only task GÇö killing stuff?
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We are hearing the feedback from those of you who argue that this change doesn't go far enough to make the Caldari and Amarr drones competitive. It is too soon to announce anything else yet but we're taking this feedback to heart. I maintain the suggestion that you simply give all (non-sentry) drones the same damage output and let resists and damage profiles make the difference there. If you want to have some other differentiation, think of what it is that you get out of the speed differences and try to implement that through different means.
E.g. minmatar drones have an easy time catching up and establishing an orbit around its target. Perhaps caldari drones are a bit slower, but have much longer ranges and larger engagement envelops GÇö they don't need to fully catch their target because they just have to get close enough to bring their long range to bear. Or maybe create a classic split between alpha and DPS GÇö some drones will rather binary in that either the cloud is large enough to blap a target, or it will mostly be scary between each volley, whereas others will slowly but surely grind the target down through continuous DPS.
Do something other than just making a choice between high damage or high speed, because the half-way options will always be just half-way and will only perpetuate the same problem you're having now (for the exact same reason). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20420
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 14:25:00 -
[18] - Quote
Barton Breau wrote:Tippia wrote:If I were to guess, that would probably be the thing: with additions such as faction DDAs being made, we'd start seeing ships doing exactly that and also being able to deliver a couple hundred more with regular guns on top. So the top end would have to be toned down a bit to not make all the 125mb bandwidth ships (including the Ishtar) downright silly.
So in essence, to allow room for further general buffs, the baseline has to be adjusted a bit downwards to ensure that the end result remains somewhat sane. You seem to be assuming the hypothetical faction DDAs will be somehow stronger than officer ones (930dps max)... Moreover, why mention gun dps at all, dont most ships have a drone bay? No, I just assume that they'll be stronger than the T2 ones and will be in much more widespread use, which will lead to a general increase in drone-specific damage output GÇö a development they might want to tone down somewhat. I also assume that the drone ships will mount guns in addition to their drones (but mainly devote their module slots to boosting the drones rather than the guns), which would let them reach pretty silly damage outputs GÇö the pre-nerf Domi was a good example of this. Yes, most ships have drone bays, but most ships don't rely on them or spend slots boosting them because that would make their main weaponry much weaker and thus be a waste of slots.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20423
|
Posted - 2014.04.02 15:51:00 -
[19] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Because in a PvE environment, heavies can't be used because the AI implemented to enhance "the player experience" 2 years ago chews them to pieces in seconds. GǪexcept that the AI implementation had nothing to do with that (and it didn't happen two years ago either). Sentries were always the better choice for PvE due to their higher damage and far better damage projection.
Nira Meru wrote:So it's a massive F you to every sentry pilot who doesn't have heavies... no seriosuly why would i ever use sentries over heavies again? For much the same reasons as before: damage projection and ease of use. They will no longer also have higher damage, but that is a good thing. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20423
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Posted - 2014.04.02 16:05:00 -
[20] - Quote
Nira Meru wrote:they didnt have higher damage in the past ogre II highest damage in the game <3 was still talking battle ship pvp. They had higher damage before we got DDAs that let other drones boost past them (which happened after the change that dinny is confused about), and their main benefit after that change GÇö projection GÇö is stil as around and as beneficial as ever. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20423
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Posted - 2014.04.02 17:03:00 -
[21] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Because in a PvE environment, heavies can't be used because the AI implemented to enhance "the player experience" 2 years ago chews them to pieces in seconds. So the next step, after people are forced to use sentries, is to wreck them, with the Omni demolition, and now this.
goons use heavies nearly exclusively for pve without problems sounds like you're just bad at this game To be fair, he's thinking about mission and GÇö as always GÇö incorrectly generalising those to mean all PvE. Not that it changes anything, since back when he thought heavies were better for missions, they weren't. So the badness is pretty constant. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20423
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Posted - 2014.04.02 17:10:00 -
[22] - Quote
Barton Breau wrote:So what you have talked yourself into: 800 dps (now) - OK 760 dps (after change+-) - OK, we need this because of the dda 930 dps (officer dda now) - OK 800-930 dps (faction dda) - SILLY, NERF Nope. The 800 now is not ok; the 930 with oDDAs now is not ok; the 760 is not what we'll see after the change.
What I'm saying is that averages will go up as more effective and yet not hilariously rare DDAs will be available. To keep those averages from rising when what they want is for them to go down, they bring everything down a bit more than might be expected.
Quote:You may want to explain where you see silly output In the average 1200+ DPS that those drone boats can deliver. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20425
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Posted - 2014.04.02 18:13:00 -
[23] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:Except instead of two weapon specialization skills, drones have four...and most drone users (especially sentry users) will use all types... Actually, most weapons have six: small, medium, large, each in a short-range and a long-range specialisation. The four drone sizes, meanwhile, only get four spec skills. Sure, they're by damage type rather than by size, but it's still fewer skills (and a lot less SP). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20426
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Posted - 2014.04.02 18:58:00 -
[24] - Quote
mkint wrote:stoicfaux wrote:It's intentional, and seemingly justified by the closure in gap between T1/Faction and T2 performance. Come again? Are you saying it makes sense that it takes 50% extra SP (combat drone operation is a rank 2 skill, scout drone operation is a rank 1 skill) for just one drone size and you get even LESS out of training it? It currently takes 2 ranks of level 5 skills to unlock T2 lights and mediums. It will now take 5 ranks of level 5 skills. For even LESS benefit. And that somehow makes sense to you? I can't remember seeing the ranks for the new skills, so we don't know the specifics yet, but yes, it's entirely possible that you'll need more ranks to unlock all the drones.
Right now (for small + medium) we have:
Drones V (rank 1) + Scout Drone Ops V (rank 1) + 4+ù Drone Spec II (rank 5) = 540k SP.
If I were to guess (assuming they want a progression through increasingly higher ranks), I'd say that we're going to see something like this after the change: Drones V (rank 1) + Light Drones V (rank 1?) + Medium Drones V (rank 2?) + 4+ù Drone Spec I (rank 5) = 1,029k SP.
GǪbut I'm being generous there and only assuming Rank 2 for medium drones, when it would be more natural for it to have Rank 3, which would mean it takes another 256k SP to unlock both sizes. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20433
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Posted - 2014.04.03 08:46:00 -
[25] - Quote
King Fu Hostile wrote:If Fighter sig res would be 400m, they wouldn't be able to hit anything, not even immobile battleships like they currently can. Sure they would. Right now, they hit about as well as medium blasters; with 400m sig res, they'd hit about as well as large blasters. Their main problem is that they orbit too close to their target. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20434
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Posted - 2014.04.03 10:01:00 -
[26] - Quote
Iria Ahrens wrote:I just want to say that changing Sentry Drone Operation to Drone Avionics is NOT clarify its role. Maybe because that's not what they're doing.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20440
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Posted - 2014.04.03 16:29:00 -
[27] - Quote
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:They haven't said what will unlock the link augmenter after the change, I'm curious about that in particular. Drone Avionics, most likely, since it ties in with what the actual module does GÇö same as now. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20440
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Posted - 2014.04.03 16:43:00 -
[28] - Quote
Harvey James wrote:the DLA's should really use the new drone avionics skill
DLA T1 - drone avionics DLA T2 - advanced drone avionics There's no reason why the requirements should change from what they are now. It's still the same module relying on the same skill GÇö only the name has changed. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Posted - 2014.04.03 17:09:00 -
[29] - Quote
Kadar Yassavi wrote:That way it won't feel like you've wasted skill time in the past if you maxed both skills. The only way for you to have wasted any time was if you never actually used the skills. No matter what, you will come out ahead in this deal. If some people come out GÇ£more aheadGÇ¥ than others, so what? If you trained those skills, your drones were better GÇö they were never a waste.
Asking or a refund of SP when you're already getting at least 50% more than you had before is a bit sillyGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Posted - 2014.04.03 17:38:00 -
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Icylce wrote:Thats why this solution is bad. As u pointed out The players who join after patch will have to train 1024k instead of 768k I did for example. But others may have trained only 256k sp and will be getting the same amoun as I will. This is bad sollution and if they go this route, I feel they should reimburse the players who invested their time to train up.
However I do believe that they should distribute the skills in 1:1 ratio., meaning they would give u "just" the same lvl of the skill of coresponding rank u had already trained. Removing ability from players is a far worse solution than giving some people 512k SP and others GÇ£onlyGÇ¥ 256k. No matter what, you come out ahead. No matter what, the skills you trained weren't wasted.
Since you don't lose any abilities, there's really nothing to reimburse. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Posted - 2014.04.03 18:02:00 -
[31] - Quote
Icylce wrote:They already are removing ability of player to use t2 sentries. GǪand that is a bad solution, but it won't affect all that many and the loss is absolutely minimal since you need at most 5,000 SP to get them back again.
Quote:Skills were not but the time was. No, no time was lost. You got the advantages from the time you spent, and they did not. Now you're getting even more from the time you spent, so no time is lost there either.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Posted - 2014.04.03 18:22:00 -
[32] - Quote
Icylce wrote:How can u claim no time was lost. Simple: because the time you spent went to giving you fairly significant advantages that you otherwise wouldn't have and because what you gain from this switch-over is sufficient recompense.
Yes, you could have skipped over, say, training CDO and now get those bonuses anyway, but guess what? Your drones would then have been 20% worse for upwards of a decade. That's a lot of damage output to miss out on over a very long period of time GÇö all so you could GÇ£saveGÇ¥ 512k SP. The skills were worth training for the advantages they brought. The time was therefore not lost. You also get to keep the bonuses you bought with your training, so again, the time was not lost. At no point do you end up with less than you have; in almost all cases, you end up with more. Loss never enters the picture.
The only way for the time to be lost is if you trained the skills and never used them or if the bonuses were being removed. If it's the former, then that's your own fault; if it's the latter thenGǪ who cares, because it's not what's happening. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Posted - 2014.04.03 19:32:00 -
[33] - Quote
Icylce wrote:Time is not measured in usefulness or opportunity. If one day 2 chars with 100 days worth od training wake up with differend days worth of training then the time was lost. No. Unless you lost time GÇö by training stuff that was useless, is rendered useless, or which you never used GÇö you didn't lose time. If other people get GÇ£jumped aheadGÇ¥, you did not lose time.
It's not a zero-sum game. Their gain is not your loss.
If you think that the time was lost, why did you train the skills to begin with? Any answer that amounts to GÇ£oh, but at the timeGǪGÇ¥ means you didn't lose time GÇö you got exactly what you trained for. Unless what you trained for is no longer in the game, you did not lose it. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Posted - 2014.04.03 19:37:00 -
[34] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Maybe I'm missing something, perhaps in a later post by a dev, but I'm not seeing how the changes cause Scout Drone Op to obsolete Combat Drone Op. Rereading now. It's not being obsoleted, as such. It's being flat out removed, and the replacement process is such that you get the same replacement skills if you have SDO V as if you had CDO V.
The highest of the two skills determines what level your newfangled Light Drone and Medium Drone skills will be at. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Posted - 2014.04.03 20:03:00 -
[35] - Quote
Icylce wrote:Yes I got exactly what I trained for, but GǪbut nothing. You lost no time. If others gained more than you, you did not lose anything. If I slot in +5s and you only use +3s, you are not losing any time. You are getting exactly what you chose; what you chose is still with you; nothing is lost.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:And now I'm even more lost.
From what I understood
SDO is being renamed to Drone Avionics with no functionality change CDO is being split into 2 skills, 1 for lights, 1 for mediums. Much like the BC/Destroyer skill changes it's clearly beneficial to train this up prior to the changes should you anticipate ever using these types of drones.
What I don't see is how the 2 skills intersect. I apologize if I missed a later clarification, but I don't see how CDO became less valuable in itself or how SDO in any way provides the same benefit after the changes as CDO does now. If you can break it down I'd appreciate it. They intersect in terms of what bonuses they provide and what they actually unlock. The drone skills are pretty inconsistent in this regard compared to other skills.
CDO gives bonuses to light and medium drones, but don't unlock them. SDO doesn't give any bonuses that are specific to light and medium drones, but it does unlock them. This set-up is as if training Small Hybrids didn't give you the ability to use small hybrids GÇö you'd only get more damage from them and would have to train sharpshooting to be able to fit the actual guns.
What this change does is bring everything back where it should be. Bonusing skills are also unlocking skills. CDO gives bonuses, so it should also unlockGǪ except that it is being split into two different skills (again, just like how small and medium hybrids are different skills). Conversely, the range-giving skill will unlock the range-giving modules, rather than have the damage bonus skills unlock the range modules (because wtf?!).
The problem is that in the transition, people with SDO trained might lose their drone abilities if it was just transformed into Done Avionics since that skill is what currently unlocks the more advance drone types. So people who have trained SDO get to keep their abilities GÇö iow, they get the comparable levels of Light and Medium Drones. At the same time, people who have trained CDO get to keep their light/medium drone damage bonuses GÇö iow, they too get comparable levels of LIght and Medium Drones. If you have one of these two skills (CDO or SDO) trained higher than the other, you still get to keep your bonuses or abilities: the highest one determines which level you get Light and Medium Drones at. This might mean you end up with more ability or higher bonuses than you had previously.
So the steps are essentially: GÇó SDO and CDO get their unlocking abilities switched around (SDO unlocks range mods, CDO unlocks drones). GÇó CDO is split into LDO and MDO, and (for the moment) retains the level trained. GÇó If your (momentary) LDO and MDO levels are lower than what you have in SDO GÇö which might mean you can no longer use T2 drones GÇö the LDO/MDO levels are increased to your current SDO level to ensure you don't lose your current ability. GÇó SDO is then renamed as Drone Avionics and retains the level trained (since it's the same skill).
GǪand order is restored instated in the drone realm. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Posted - 2014.04.03 20:15:00 -
[36] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:After a re-reread I'm seeing that statement being alluded to. I can't sat it comes across clearly, though that may just be me. I guess the key part I was missing was the statement that: "This means that all light combat drones will now be unlocked and bonused from the Light Drone Operation skill, and medium combat drones will be unlocked and bonused from the Medium Drone Operation skill." but that contradicts the statement that SDO would be retaining all it's functions. Maybe that is where i got confused. No, it's certainly not entirely clear unless you parse it and reparse it a couple of times, then read the explanations, double-check the skills, and apply some implied logic.
As Erasmus Phoenix points out, it hasn't actually been said that Drone Avionics will unlock drone link augs GÇö it's just an assumption based on how all the bonuses and abilities are being put in order. Even if Fozzie forgot about that poor old module, I'm sure it's being quietly snuck into the change doc as we speakGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Posted - 2014.04.03 20:24:00 -
[37] - Quote
Icylce wrote:It does not mean u dont loose time if u choose to do so. One does not rule out the other. What rules out the loss of time is the very simple fact that you didn't lose anything in the process. Again: someone else's gain is not your loss. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Posted - 2014.04.04 00:36:00 -
[38] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:If you trained in real life every week night for a year to qualify for a payrise and then the boss a few weeks after you get your payrise decides to give it to everyone regardless of training you will be dissed. Rightly so because you did lose something, all your evenings for a year. GǪand for that entire year, you got paid for those evenings.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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Posted - 2014.04.04 00:48:00 -
[39] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:Still they could have used that drone training for something else GǪand had awful drone stats as a result. After all, there's a reason whey did spend that time training the skill.
The time was only wasted if they didn't want that skill. And if they didn't want it, why on earth did they train it? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
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