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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 21 post(s) |
Masao Kurata
Z List
49
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Posted - 2014.04.03 17:53:00 -
[661] - Quote
Icylce wrote:Tippia wrote:Icylce wrote:Thats why this solution is bad. As u pointed out The players who join after patch will have to train 1024k instead of 768k I did for example. But others may have trained only 256k sp and will be getting the same amoun as I will. This is bad sollution and if they go this route, I feel they should reimburse the players who invested their time to train up.
However I do believe that they should distribute the skills in 1:1 ratio., meaning they would give u "just" the same lvl of the skill of coresponding rank u had already trained. Removing ability from players is a far worse solution than giving some people 512k SP and others GÇ£onlyGÇ¥ 256k. No matter what, you come out ahead. No matter what, the skills you trained weren't wasted. Since you don't lose any abilities, there's really nothing to reimburse. They already are removing ability of player to use t2 sentries. Skills were not but the time was. And time is the most valuable resource.
Oh come on, who trains sentry drone interfacing V (5x) but not scout drone operation V (1x)? |
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
86
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Posted - 2014.04.03 17:56:00 -
[662] - Quote
Especially since sentries really benefit from the drone control range |
Icylce
The Chosen 0nes DARKNESS.
33
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Posted - 2014.04.03 17:56:00 -
[663] - Quote
Masao Kurata wrote:Icylce wrote:Tippia wrote:Icylce wrote:Thats why this solution is bad. As u pointed out The players who join after patch will have to train 1024k instead of 768k I did for example. But others may have trained only 256k sp and will be getting the same amoun as I will. This is bad sollution and if they go this route, I feel they should reimburse the players who invested their time to train up.
However I do believe that they should distribute the skills in 1:1 ratio., meaning they would give u "just" the same lvl of the skill of coresponding rank u had already trained. Removing ability from players is a far worse solution than giving some people 512k SP and others GÇ£onlyGÇ¥ 256k. No matter what, you come out ahead. No matter what, the skills you trained weren't wasted. Since you don't lose any abilities, there's really nothing to reimburse. They already are removing ability of player to use t2 sentries. Skills were not but the time was. And time is the most valuable resource. Oh come on, who trains sentry drone interfacing V (5x) but not scout drone operation V (1x)? Sentry V wont be enought for t 2 sentries after the patch. |
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
86
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Posted - 2014.04.03 17:59:00 -
[664] - Quote
Is there a single player who actively uses T2 sentries and doesn't have the racial drone skills? |
Batelle
Tymast Industries 150th
2549
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 18:00:00 -
[665] - Quote
hmmm
- across the board buff for t1 drones - faction drones, integrated drones now have a reason to exist. Augmented drones getting buffed above t2, which is a buff to drone sites and to drone users. - slight reduction in the necessity of drone interfacing 5 without messing anything up - renaming skills to be more sensible - fixing the nonsense values regarding minmatar/amarr drones that have been an obvious anomaly since forever - buff to medium/heavy mwd speed - sentry damage buffed by racial specialization - bouncer damage reduced slightly, curator damage increased. This makes sense. - curator falloff removed They do have good optimal range though. They still have faloff on the spreasheet however. - lowslot drone tracking mods, faction DDAs and more faction omnis and navi comps. Drones are now even better in PVE. - 6km extra falloff on garde ii's is a big deal, as it makes the nerf to omnidirectionals much less painful. - gigantic buff to fighters, which is probably good. CCP decided to make fighters more attractive rather than castrate sentries.
Everything looks fantastic. Only a few things went unaddressed:
- No mention of updates to drone UI. - No mention at all of drone control range mechanics. - Nothing about light/med/heavy drones tracking/optimal/hp. Only velocity/damage were discussed, and gallente has the worst tracking among these drones. I guess this is all intended. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Masao Kurata
Z List
49
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Posted - 2014.04.03 18:02:00 -
[666] - Quote
Well I could believe there are players who don't have the specific racial drone skills for the T2 sentries they use (e.g. T2 curators without amarr drone spec), but not ones without scout drone operation V. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
267
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Posted - 2014.04.03 18:02:00 -
[667] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote: CCP should add LaTeX support for the forums so that i can post a proof for that =<
Hell yes. CCP, drop everything and add this immediately. What could go wrong? This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Icylce
The Chosen 0nes DARKNESS.
33
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Posted - 2014.04.03 18:02:00 -
[668] - Quote
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:Is there a single player who actively uses T2 sentries and doesn't have the racial drone skills? I know quite few |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20440
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 18:02:00 -
[669] - Quote
Icylce wrote:They already are removing ability of player to use t2 sentries. GǪand that is a bad solution, but it won't affect all that many and the loss is absolutely minimal since you need at most 5,000 SP to get them back again.
Quote:Skills were not but the time was. No, no time was lost. You got the advantages from the time you spent, and they did not. Now you're getting even more from the time you spent, so no time is lost there either.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Icylce
The Chosen 0nes DARKNESS.
33
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 18:11:00 -
[670] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Icylce wrote:They already are removing ability of player to use t2 sentries. GǪand that is a bad solution, but it won't affect all that many and the loss is absolutely minimal since you need at most 5,000 SP to get them back again. Quote:Skills were not but the time was. No, no time was lost. You got the advantages from the time you spent, and they did not. Now you're getting even more from the time you spent, so no time is lost there either.
How can u claim no time was lost. If we take 2 players with same amount of sp at the patchday, who started playing the same day one with both skills at 5, one with rank 1 skill at 5 and rank to at 1. After the patchday, the second player has 500k sp more. first player has actually lost 7-8 days.
The sollution proposed in devblog was allright and fair to current players:
" During the patch downtime, existing players with the Combat Drone Operation skill trained will receive both new skills trained to the same level that their Combat Drone Operation skill was trained to."
THIS however is wrong:
CCP Fozzie wrote:Sorry for the delay in answering some of the skill questions guys.
As many of you have suggested, we'll be giving pilots the same level in both Light Drone Operation and Medium Drone Operation as the highest level they have in either Scout Drone Operation or Combat Drone Operation over the patch downtime.
The Light Drone Operation skill will be rank 1, the Medium Drone Operation skill will be rank 2.
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Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
88
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Posted - 2014.04.03 18:12:00 -
[671] - Quote
Icylce wrote:Erasmus Phoenix wrote:Is there a single player who actively uses T2 sentries and doesn't have the racial drone skills? I know quite few
Why would you put the time in to use T2 sentries without being able to use at least T2 smalls? |
Icylce
The Chosen 0nes DARKNESS.
33
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 18:14:00 -
[672] - Quote
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:Icylce wrote:Erasmus Phoenix wrote:Is there a single player who actively uses T2 sentries and doesn't have the racial drone skills? I know quite few Why would you put the time in to use T2 sentries without being able to use at least T2 smalls? Dont ask me ask them:) |
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
88
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Posted - 2014.04.03 18:15:00 -
[673] - Quote
Icylce wrote:Tippia wrote:Icylce wrote:They already are removing ability of player to use t2 sentries. GǪand that is a bad solution, but it won't affect all that many and the loss is absolutely minimal since you need at most 5,000 SP to get them back again. Quote:Skills were not but the time was. No, no time was lost. You got the advantages from the time you spent, and they did not. Now you're getting even more from the time you spent, so no time is lost there either. How can u claim no time was lost. If we take 2 players with same amount of sp at the patchday, who started playing the same day one with both skills at 5, one with rank 1 skill at 5 and rank to at 1. After the patchday, the second player has 500k sp more. first player has actually lost 7-8 days. The sollution proposed in devblog was allright and fair to current players: " During the patch downtime, existing players with the Combat Drone Operation skill trained will receive both new skills trained to the same level that their Combat Drone Operation skill was trained to." THIS however is wrong: CCP Fozzie wrote:Sorry for the delay in answering some of the skill questions guys.
As many of you have suggested, we'll be giving pilots the same level in both Light Drone Operation and Medium Drone Operation as the highest level they have in either Scout Drone Operation or Combat Drone Operation over the patch downtime.
The Light Drone Operation skill will be rank 1, the Medium Drone Operation skill will be rank 2.
So you'd rather have a situation where someone loses the ability to use T2 or even T1 drones that they were perfectly capable of deploying before the patch?
Yes, this is still happening with the sentries, but it's a smaller difference in training and you also wouldn't ever lose the ability to use T1. |
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
88
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 18:16:00 -
[674] - Quote
Icylce wrote:Erasmus Phoenix wrote:Icylce wrote:Erasmus Phoenix wrote:Is there a single player who actively uses T2 sentries and doesn't have the racial drone skills? I know quite few Why would you put the time in to use T2 sentries without being able to use at least T2 smalls? Dont ask me ask them:)
Go and ask them, then. Get them to come and post here. I don't hang out with these people, you do. |
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel Gank for Profit
79
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 18:18:00 -
[675] - Quote
Batelle wrote:hmmm - across the board buff for t1 drones - faction drones, integrated drones now have a reason to exist. Augmented drones getting buffed above t2, which is a buff to drone sites and to drone users. - slight reduction in the necessity of drone interfacing 5 without messing anything up - renaming skills to be more sensible - fixing the nonsense values regarding minmatar/amarr drones that have been an obvious anomaly since forever - buff to medium/heavy mwd speed - sentry damage buffed by racial specialization - bouncer damage reduced slightly, curator damage increased. This makes sense. - curator falloff removed They do have good optimal range though. They still have faloff on the spreasheet however.- lowslot drone tracking mods, faction DDAs and more faction omnis and navi comps. Drones are now even better in PVE. - 6km extra falloff on garde ii's is a big deal, as it makes the nerf to omnidirectionals much less painful. - gigantic buff to fighters, which is probably good. CCP decided to make fighters more attractive rather than castrate sentries. Everything looks fantastic. Only a few things went unaddressed: - No mention of updates to drone UI. - No mention at all of drone control range mechanics. - Nothing about light/med/heavy drones tracking/optimal/hp. Only velocity/damage were discussed, and gallente has the worst tracking among these drones. I guess this is all intended. garde II's are being nerfed by ~50dps currator II's buffed by ~51dps bouncer II's nerfed by ~38dps warden II's bufferd by ~15dps (5 sentry 3dda drone bonused ship) nothing has been said about ewar drones Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20440
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 18:22:00 -
[676] - Quote
Icylce wrote:How can u claim no time was lost. Simple: because the time you spent went to giving you fairly significant advantages that you otherwise wouldn't have and because what you gain from this switch-over is sufficient recompense.
Yes, you could have skipped over, say, training CDO and now get those bonuses anyway, but guess what? Your drones would then have been 20% worse for upwards of a decade. That's a lot of damage output to miss out on over a very long period of time GÇö all so you could GÇ£saveGÇ¥ 512k SP. The skills were worth training for the advantages they brought. The time was therefore not lost. You also get to keep the bonuses you bought with your training, so again, the time was not lost. At no point do you end up with less than you have; in almost all cases, you end up with more. Loss never enters the picture.
The only way for the time to be lost is if you trained the skills and never used them or if the bonuses were being removed. If it's the former, then that's your own fault; if it's the latter thenGǪ who cares, because it's not what's happening. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
817
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 18:31:00 -
[677] - Quote
CCP Lebowski wrote: You sir, are asking the real questions here! If you want an answer, ask yourself this. What number exists between 1.9 repeating and 2? |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
862
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 18:36:00 -
[678] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Sorry for the delay in answering some of the skill questions guys.
As many of you have suggested, we'll be giving pilots the same level in both Light Drone Operation and Medium Drone Operation as the highest level they have in either Scout Drone Operation or Combat Drone Operation over the patch downtime.
The Light Drone Operation skill will be rank 1, the Medium Drone Operation skill will be rank 2. Ok, so what is it? Is it Scout Drone or Combat Drone Operation? And why wouldn't that be mentioned in the Dev Blog? The only thing the blog references is Combat Drone Operation skill, and it's clear as day here:
CCP Fozzie wrote:During the patch downtime, existing players with the Combat Drone Operation skill trained will receive both new skills trained to the same level that their Combat Drone Operation skill was trained to. . . Finally, we are renaming two drone skills to clarify their roles. The Scout Drone Operation skill is being renamed GÇ£Drone Avionics.GÇ¥
Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |
Jen Takhesis
The Scope Gallente Federation
64
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 18:40:00 -
[679] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:CCP Lebowski wrote: You sir, are asking the real questions here! If you want an answer, ask yourself this. What number exists between 1.9 repeating and 2?
1.99 repeating. Ha! Got ya! |
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
88
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 18:42:00 -
[680] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Sorry for the delay in answering some of the skill questions guys.
As many of you have suggested, we'll be giving pilots the same level in both Light Drone Operation and Medium Drone Operation as the highest level they have in either Scout Drone Operation or Combat Drone Operation over the patch downtime.
The Light Drone Operation skill will be rank 1, the Medium Drone Operation skill will be rank 2. Ok, so what is it? Is it Scout Drone or Combat Drone Operation? And why wouldn't that be mentioned in the Dev Blog? The only thing the blog references is Combat Drone Operation skill, and it's clear as day here: CCP Fozzie wrote:During the patch downtime, existing players with the Combat Drone Operation skill trained will receive both new skills trained to the same level that their Combat Drone Operation skill was trained to. . . Finally, we are renaming two drone skills to clarify their roles. The Scout Drone Operation skill is being renamed GÇ£Drone Avionics.GÇ¥
If you have Scout Drone Operation at a higher level than you have Combat Drone Operation at, then you will get the new skills at the level of SDO. If you don't, then you will get them at the level of CDO. It's not that hard to follow.
The blog does say that, but Fozzie is correcting that in this thread. |
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Icylce
The Chosen 0nes DARKNESS.
33
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Posted - 2014.04.03 19:02:00 -
[681] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Icylce wrote:How can u claim no time was lost. Simple: because the time you spent went to giving you fairly significant advantages that you otherwise wouldn't have and because what you gain from this switch-over is sufficient recompense. Yes, you could have skipped over, say, training CDO and now get those bonuses anyway, but guess what? Your drones would then have been 20% worse for upwards of a decade. That's a lot of damage output to miss out on over a very long period of time GÇö all so you could GÇ£saveGÇ¥ 512k SP. The skills were worth training for the advantages they brought. The time was therefore not lost. You also get to keep the bonuses you bought with your training, so again, the time was not lost. At no point do you end up with less than you have; in almost all cases, you end up with more. Loss never enters the picture. The only way for the time to be lost is if you trained the skills and never used them or if the bonuses were being removed. If it's the former, then that's your own fault; if it's the latter thenGǪ who cares, because it's not what's happening. The only downside with the chosen solution is that some poor soul might end up with a higher clone grade, and that's it.
Time is not measured in usefulness or opportunity. If one day 2 chars with 100 days worth od training wake up with differend days worth of training then the time was lost.
Erasmus Phoenix wrote: So you'd rather have a situation where someone loses the ability to use T2 or even T1 drones that they were perfectly capable of deploying before the patch?
Yes, this is still happening with the sentries, but it's a smaller difference in training and you also wouldn't ever lose the ability to use T1.
Well, then make the scout drone operation the required t2 skills as it was and change the new skills to dmg effect only. Problem solved.
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Mexicantis
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 19:04:00 -
[682] - Quote
Instead of using a straight line to balance the combat drones why not use a diamond shape to really differentiate them. Treat them like you would a rebalanced ship and split them off into specialisations. For example, keep Gallente as the damage dealers regardless of resists- not very good range, Caldari have great range - not very good dps, keep Minnies nice and fast but replace their damage with a good web bonus or a tracking disruptor and Ammar can be really good at sucking out cap or make them the anti-drone drones etc. Get rid of all the other ewar drones, or make those even more specialised, I donGÇÖt recall ever seeing any one ever use them except for the ecm, but everybody hates those anyway so no great loss.
Give me a reason to pick and choose between different roles as I do now with the newly rebalanced ships. As the changes stand there is still no reason for me to want to use the "slightly" slower drone or the one that does "slightly" less damage. Like Tippia said Eve is a world of extremes, IGÇÖll always want to use the thing that does the most of something, everything in between is just pointless riffraff.
Try out something bold and brave, if it doesnGÇÖt work you can always change it again or push that revert or rollback button in Perforce or whatever backup system you guys use.
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Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
89
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Posted - 2014.04.03 19:06:00 -
[683] - Quote
I wouldn't exactly be opposed to that, but this does bring light/medium drones in line with the way the other sizes work. It does create weirdness with ewar drones, which Fozzie hasn't said anything about yet.
On the other hand, I entirely disagree with what you're saying about losing time. You have had the benefit of the skills you trained.
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Varesk
Carried Hate
540
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 19:07:00 -
[684] - Quote
Tippia wrote: Removing ability from players is a far worse solution than giving some people 512k SP and others GÇ£onlyGÇ¥ 256k. No matter what, you come out ahead. No matter what, the skills you trained weren't wasted.
Since you don't lose any abilities, there's really nothing to reimburse.
This. Eventually you will get to a point where you say
1) what do I train now?
or
2) sweet, I have that trained already.
either way you are not wasting time or skill points.
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Barton Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 19:19:00 -
[685] - Quote
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:Icylce wrote:Erasmus Phoenix wrote:Is there a single player who actively uses T2 sentries and doesn't have the racial drone skills? I know quite few Why would you put the time in to use T2 sentries without being able to use at least T2 smalls?
For what purpose would you want to use t2 smalls outside pvp if you want to use sentrys?
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Batelle
Tymast Industries 150th
2549
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 19:23:00 -
[686] - Quote
oh boo hoo i spent a week training combat drone operation 5 for that extra 5% on my warriors and now other people won't have to. I think we'll all live.
And reducing the spec requirement to 1 for all drones is a good solution. If you lose the ability to launch your curators this summer then I have no sympathy for you. Go buy a damn skillbook and take 1 hour out of your busy training schedule. You have months to do so.
Also lol at dinsdale crying about how this is so terrible when its by and large a buff to drones by just about every conceivable metric. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1064
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 19:23:00 -
[687] - Quote
Barton Breau wrote:Erasmus Phoenix wrote:Icylce wrote:Erasmus Phoenix wrote:Is there a single player who actively uses T2 sentries and doesn't have the racial drone skills? I know quite few Why would you put the time in to use T2 sentries without being able to use at least T2 smalls? For what purpose would you want to use t2 smalls outside pvp if you want to use sentrys? Close orbiting frigate NPC's?
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Barton Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 19:25:00 -
[688] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Barton Breau wrote:Erasmus Phoenix wrote:Icylce wrote:Erasmus Phoenix wrote:Is there a single player who actively uses T2 sentries and doesn't have the racial drone skills? I know quite few Why would you put the time in to use T2 sentries without being able to use at least T2 smalls? For what purpose would you want to use t2 smalls outside pvp if you want to use sentrys? Close orbiting frigate NPC's?
Is it 2011 or something? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1065
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 19:27:00 -
[689] - Quote
Batelle wrote:oh boo hoo i spent a week training combat drone operation 5 for that extra 5% on my warriors and now other people won't have to. I think we'll all live.
And reducing the spec requirement to 1 for all drones is a good solution. If you lose the ability to launch your curators this summer then I have no sympathy for you. Go buy a damn skillbook and take 1 hour out of your busy training schedule. You have months to do so.
Also lol at dinsdale crying about how this is so terrible when its by and large a buff to drones by just about every conceivable metric. Confused, how is the comparative benefit of combat drone op V going away? Isn't it actually becomeing more valuable to do it now prior to the split? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1065
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 19:28:00 -
[690] - Quote
Barton Breau wrote:Is it 2011 or something? Do you MJD for every close orbiting ship? My hobs can finish a couple close orbiters in the time it takes an MJD to spool up.
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