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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6836
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Posted - 2014.04.07 15:49:00 -
[31] - Quote
also Gilbaron is 100% correct: it is now the norm that alliances explain what they're doing with their money, and everyone can pretty easily see when large sums of money are vanishing down a black hole because we've all gotten pretty good at figuring out what an alliance spends money on and working out when there's a big difference in what goes in vs what comes out Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3340
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Posted - 2014.04.07 18:50:00 -
[32] - Quote
Dr Grant wrote:mynnna wrote:Thur Barbek wrote:afkboss wrote:Stayed in a few different nullsec outposts and none had refining tax. ^^^^^^^^ if your getting refine tax - time to change corps/alliances or talk to leadership. Very, very few outpost owners tax mining at all, because the amount of mining that happens in null isn't generally high enough to make it a strong income stream. This becomes especially true once you consider the logistics of actually realizing money from those taxes - you basically have to have a large producer willing to buy whatever you get to supplement his imports. I sell the taxes (5% rate fwiw) to one of our supercap producers who uses a Titan to bridge around 3-4 freighters as a solution to the logistics problem, for example. This may well continue to be true even after summer, too, but it'd depend on how much local industry pops up to take advantage of the cost difference. Outside that, only thing that'd change it as a rule would be having the option to take refine taxes as ore (so it could be compressed for ease of export) or simply straight isk based on estimated value of output. Whether that's a relief or not probably depends on what your viewpoint is, but thinking that taxes would be a reason to leave is amusingly quaint. As was pointed out, neither the space itself nor the defense of it is free... The point being: a.) if taxes become the norm, the 0.0 advantage is either nonexistent or low for the individual player b.) if industry will see an upturn in 0.0 i am fairly certain it will be taxed, today's settings are not a benchmark c.) refine taxes will become a passive income stream for orgs just as rent, moon goo and rat tax. I consider that bad, because most organizations are not forthcoming about org wide income vs. expenses. I think most orgs are organized in a way that the leaderships gets a hefty profit from the operation. In any case if the empowerment of the individual is the goal, which CCP has stated, it is contra productive. d.) 3-7 % tax on a serious industry venture is not negligible. I think CCP should think hard about giving orgs more tools to extract money from members in a passive way. Edit: one could argue that orgs disliked indy players because there was no reasonably way to extract money from them until now. CCP has fixed that for them. Edit: Also since 0.0 will become the most competitive refining space, CCP gives the nullsec entities control over the New Eden industry. It is not a given, that any 0.0 player even in an alliance may get the same conditions as a few selected few. That is bad for competition IMHO. Edit: i can easily see the current nullsec cartels create a monopoly on 60 % refine stations. Should be much easier then some other ventures they did so far.
a) With a 20% advantage over highsec there's plenty of room to apply a tax and still reward the producer. b) Probably true. Funny that this is bottom up income that so many rabble for and yet when it comes true, they start whining because it hits them. c) Man I dunno what experience you have with nullsec organizations, but the sum total WE pay out to directors, logistics people, FCs, etc barely even comes to 5% of our budget, usually totaling a plex or two per person as long as requirements are met. Its not even a reward or salary so much as it is recognition that the work they do for the alliance requires them to operate one or more additional accounts that they may not otherwise have to subscribe. This "the leaders benefit" crap may be how things used to work, but curiously those organizations have all died out at the hands of ones that don't work that way. d) A 3-7% tax when you're paying 20% less than competitors in empire still leaves a very sizable advantage, one that's often larger than the actual profit margin that exists now.
And finally if Nullsec comes to dominate industry and all the highsec producers are driven out of business (legitimately driven out, not petulantly whining and quitting) then I'll eat my ****ing hat. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Allison A'vani
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
64
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Posted - 2014.04.08 00:26:00 -
[33] - Quote
I personally have always thought that bottom up income is dumb. The alliance should have high value income streams. This generates things to fight over.
Further, 0.0 alliances SHOULD get better everything than high sec. With greater risk should come greater reward. |
Felicity Love
Whore and Peace
1663
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Posted - 2014.04.08 03:48:00 -
[34] - Quote
Dr Grant wrote:The point was made that all producers and miners will rush to 0.0 because there is this ~10% advantage. I think in most cases it won't be there for the individual.
Null is not about individuals. It's about a thinly veiled neo-feudal hierarchy, which is to say you have your answer about a great many issues where Null is concerned.
... and I was just saying the other day, "Damn, I miss Soundwave"....
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Perkin Warbeck
Black Watch Guard Curatores Veritatis Alliance
173
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Posted - 2014.04.10 10:02:00 -
[35] - Quote
mynnna wrote: Lot of accurate stuff
Would be interested on your thoughts about the impact of the refining changes on producers of capitals in low sec. All I can see is a genuine reduction in their margins when the risks are as great, if not greater, than in null.
Quite a few low sec producers I know are concerned about the prospective impact. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1320
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Posted - 2014.04.10 10:44:00 -
[36] - Quote
nullsec capital factorys will become a thing. the thing lowsec cap builders need to be concerned about it how many of these will -actually- become a thing. that is really hard to predict. you need to invest a LOT to make the nullsec factorys happen and it isn't clear yet if those investments will be made by the landlords or the renters themselves. so far, no landlord has made a definite statement about it. GRRR Goons |
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
52
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Posted - 2014.04.13 09:40:00 -
[37] - Quote
In my rather limited nul experience, demand for goods is the biggest speed-bump you will find slowing down your industrial machine. The turnover of goods (demand) is usually tightly controlled by corp/alliance logistics that typically import a majority of necessary goods; new doctrine is advertised alliance-wide; profit. Rinse and repeat.
Yes, you have access to all the best ore/ice in nulsec. Yes, you may have to pay hefty fees to utilize research, production, refining, etc in nul stations, but supporting the landlord/station owner makes sense. Since you typically have almost no wait times for all slots (except for maybe material research), it is much better compared to a 60-day wait in highsec. So do all your research in lowsec or nul, then production in highsec and sell where you can, unless you can manage to figure out a nul niche market for profit.
As long as you have a pvp character/alt only focused on pvp skills, you will be a viable member of a nul alliance. Otherwise, stay in highsec and quit your complaining.
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Allison A'vani
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
65
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Posted - 2014.04.13 17:01:00 -
[38] - Quote
DetKhord Saisio wrote:In my rather limited nul experience, demand for goods is the biggest speed-bump you will find slowing down your industrial machine. The turnover of goods (demand) is usually tightly controlled by corp/alliance logistics that typically import a majority of necessary goods; new doctrine is advertised alliance-wide; profit. Rinse and repeat.
Yes, you have access to all the best ore/ice in nulsec. Yes, you may have to pay hefty fees to utilize research, production, refining, etc in nul stations, but supporting the landlord/station owner makes sense. Since you typically have almost no wait times for all slots (except for maybe material research), it is much better compared to a 60-day wait in highsec. So do all your research in lowsec or nul, then production in highsec and sell where you can, unless you can manage to figure out a nul niche market for profit.
As long as you have a pvp character/alt only focused on pvp skills, you will be a viable member of a nul alliance. Otherwise, stay in highsec and quit your complaining.
Why would you ever want to use a Null station for anything other than refining. Use a POS. If your alliance has sovereignty and you use faction tower, then there is literally no reason not to. The fuel block cost will be significantly less than the fees you would pay at a null station. You have to import everything anyway, so you might as well build where you research and refine. On the point made earlier about low sec cap building, the margins are incredibly thin anyway, so I expect to see carrier and dread production largely moved to POSes so that you don't have to: Buy in Jita --> JF to 0.0 refine station --> JF back to low sec. With the amount of topes burned (looking at a ton of mids as well and that is some MAJOR EFFORT), you might as well just build at a POS (not to mention the 0.75 time multiplier on an X-Large Ship Assembly Array and the Component Assembly Array).
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Perkin Warbeck
Black Watch Guard Curatores Veritatis Alliance
174
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Posted - 2014.04.13 21:31:00 -
[39] - Quote
Moving capital production to a POS in low would remove whatever profit there was in the business. Having been a resident in low for a fair while I'm just can't see the reasoning why CCP wouldn't make refining on a low sec station equivalent to that in null. I get the whole player owned thing but they also wanted to encourage industry in both sectors. Now the one area that low sec where industry in low sec is used for has been nerfed hard. |
Jacabon Mere
Capital Storm. Black Flag Society
72
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Posted - 2014.04.13 23:14:00 -
[40] - Quote
There isn't enough practical slots for serious cap production in null. But you will likely want to throw up a small post for refining for your lowsec cap production. Capital Storm is recruiting Aussies for Lowsec pvp and money making. Join "Capital Storm Pub" channel ingame. www.capitalstorm.net |
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mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3394
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Posted - 2014.04.16 00:44:00 -
[41] - Quote
Perkin Warbeck wrote:mynnna wrote: Lot of accurate stuff Would be interested on your thoughts about the impact of the refining changes on producers of capitals in low sec. All I can see is a genuine reduction in their margins when the risks are as great, if not greater, than in null. Quite a few low sec producers I know are concerned about the prospective impact.
So now that that first blog is out I feel I can safely say "I'm going to defer on this answer until the rest of the information is available" without giving away the fact that there is, in fact, more information. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1341
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Posted - 2014.04.16 11:41:00 -
[42] - Quote
Jacabon Mere wrote:There isn't enough practical slots for serious cap production in null. But you will likely want to throw up a small post for refining for your lowsec cap production.
the slot thing is no longer an issue. at all :D GRRR Goons |
Perkin Warbeck
Black Watch Guard Curatores Veritatis Alliance
174
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Posted - 2014.04.16 11:45:00 -
[43] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Perkin Warbeck wrote:mynnna wrote: Lot of accurate stuff Would be interested on your thoughts about the impact of the refining changes on producers of capitals in low sec. All I can see is a genuine reduction in their margins when the risks are as great, if not greater, than in null. Quite a few low sec producers I know are concerned about the prospective impact. So now that that first blog is out I feel I can safely say "I'm going to defer on this answer until the rest of the information is available" without giving away the fact that there is, in fact, more information.
Well I'll wait and see what happens but after today's announcement about the industry changes its starting to look like the low sec capital industry is now dead in the water to be honest. |
Dr Grant
Building Inspectors
17
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Posted - 2014.04.18 12:20:00 -
[44] - Quote
Perkin Warbeck wrote:mynnna wrote:Perkin Warbeck wrote:mynnna wrote: Lot of accurate stuff Would be interested on your thoughts about the impact of the refining changes on producers of capitals in low sec. All I can see is a genuine reduction in their margins when the risks are as great, if not greater, than in null. Quite a few low sec producers I know are concerned about the prospective impact. So now that that first blog is out I feel I can safely say "I'm going to defer on this answer until the rest of the information is available" without giving away the fact that there is, in fact, more information. Well I'll wait and see what happens but after today's announcement about the industry changes its starting to look like the low sec capital industry is now dead in the water to be honest.
Yes it is. It wouldn't be so bad if we didn't have a de-facto monopoly in null-sec. But i bet CCP won't set the NPC stations to 60 % which would be the right move. Considering the "risk vs. reward" its more risky to produce there than deep in the blue donut after all.
Again, i am not against buffing 0.0 industry, on the contrary. I am against coalitions sucking the life out of it right from the start. CCP should have probably fixed 0.0 before they introduced 0.0 industry. RIght now it means that if you want to participate in 0.0 industry you need to become someones *****. To me, that isn't a good design. The goal should be that small entities can do 0.0 industry. Would benefit the economy too. |
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
454
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Posted - 2014.04.18 21:50:00 -
[45] - Quote
My alliance taxes refining, but the neighboring alliance (which is part of the coalition and thus we can use their stations) does not.
I often wonder if anyone is actually dumb enough to use our alliance stations for refining, and why they even bother taxing it. |
Dr Grant
Building Inspectors
19
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Posted - 2014.04.21 13:19:00 -
[46] - Quote
Another, more elaborate view on the issue:
http://evenews24.com/2014/04/21/jesters-trek-traitor/
It is pretty much along the lines of what i said so far. Come expansion you have to bend over to some coalition to be profitable with industry at all.
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Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland Test Alliance Please Ignore
636
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Posted - 2014.04.21 15:18:00 -
[47] - Quote
Volar Kang wrote:Sounds like someone got Obama involved in null. What a shame...
Because giving your isk to George Bush did a lot of good. GÇ£I personally refuse to help AAA take space from itself so it can become an even shittier version of itselfGÇ¥
-Grath Telkin, 2014. |
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