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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
352
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Posted - 2014.04.15 17:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
I've only had my first read of this and without the rest of the unpublished details and time to digest it all I can't really say much other than...
Impressive. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
352
|
Posted - 2014.04.15 19:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
Amber Solaire wrote:theman428 wrote:Amber Solaire wrote:Correct me if I`m wrong
If more people decide to use stations for safety, won`t this slow down overall production, thus making a lot of CCP`s great ideas the reverse of an improvement to Industry?
no it will just make it more expensive for those seeking slots More expense=less people can afford to do it=reduction of profits=no point trying to produce any more (by newer players) That is not any improvement at all Given how many stations there are out there, I doubt that any pricing problem couldn't be solved by moving a few jumps further away from the busy systems. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
353
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Posted - 2014.04.15 21:44:00 -
[3] - Quote
Come on. Post the next blog already. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
355
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Posted - 2014.04.15 21:59:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Querns wrote:El 1974 wrote:No need to remove offline POSses. Allow players to shoot them without a wardec and they will clear them. Perhaps make attackers suspect, but keep concord out. Give players a chance, you can always remove POSses later if that doesn't work. If offline pos spam is a concern, this is an elegant solution. Why isn't the wardec solution sufficient? It's been sufficient for me, many, many times in the past.
I have never, ever, had any issue getting a moon (or multiple moons) in the system I want.
I can understand introducing a new and interesting mechanic to enrich the game, but in the absence of that I don't see a need to make it any easier than it already is to get a moon.
Add to this the vast amount of quality real estate that will be added by opening up the higher sec systems and I don't really see it as an issue worthy of additional developer time. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
355
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Posted - 2014.04.15 22:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:Tippia wrote:Why isn't the wardec solution sufficient? It takes too long. Most of the time is spent waiting for the wardec to start.
It is perfectly reasonable to give someone notice that you are going to attack their hi-sec assets. It is perfectly reasonable for them to respond. I doubt very much that any future mechanic would ever circumvent the wardec without replacing it with a similar notice period. So whatever timespan you are hoping for isn't very realistic. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
355
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Posted - 2014.04.15 22:44:00 -
[6] - Quote
gifter Penken wrote:IMHO, the worst part of T2 BPOs are the hate and discontent they create in new(er) players. No matter how long we play, we will never get a change to become an instant mega billionaire, simply by winning a T2 BPO lottery. We will always be at a SERIOUS disadvantage to other players, simply because we are newer. But that is just ignorance. Changing the reality will not change the ignorance of that reality.
T2 BPOs are very close to irrelevant for both the new player and the average inventor. It would not be possible to make them significantly less relevant without taking fairly extreme action. No great benefit would be gained from that extreme action. The people who like to complain about things they don't understand will still be complaining about things they don't understand. Along with that you would have diminished or destroyed one of the few aspirational objectives available to the high end industrialist. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
355
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Posted - 2014.04.15 22:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
gifter Penken wrote:Perhaps I am misunderstanding the intent of taking away remote research/manufacture on BPOs.
So, CCP, what is the intended result of this change?
Is it your intention that billions of ISK worth of BPOs will now be in the POS where they can be stolen, destroyed, captured?
If that is your intent, then FAIL! You seem to assume that players will be stupid. They won't be. The expensive BPOs are NOT going into a low/null POS.
Or, was it your intention that we'll spend a few days training up research alts, create a corp of one plater with half a dozen research alts, then run a high sec, super hardened POS cranking out copies of BPOs, then transport those BPOs to our primary corp manufacturing POS.
If your intent was creating all these extra levels of pain in the manufacturing process... then Epic Win! Given that EVE is a sandbox game, I would have thought that their intention would be to let us figure out for ourselves what the best solution is for our own individual needs. Given that the tools provided allow for a fairly diverse selection of solutions to the same problem, it does kind of look that way. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
356
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Posted - 2014.04.15 22:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
gifter Penken wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:http://k162space.com/2012/07/17/percentage-of-items-from-invention-vs-tech-2-bpo/ is of interest for people trying to work out percentages made from T2 BPOs.
It's about 2 years out of date now, but it is based on information from CCP themselves. That does indicate, as I expected, there is a wide spectrum of cases. Everything from BPO supplying 5% to BPO supplying 95%. For some items, an increase in BPO production via copy would be noise. For other items, even a modest increase would be a game changer where the price point shifts from invented cost to T2 BPO production cost. For some items, where BPO production remains below demand, profits from BPO are likely to go up. For some items, where BPO production suddenly exceeds demand, profits from BPO may go down. The information is two years old. Since it was published a great many changes have occured to encourage the useage of a much wider variety of T2 hulls and equipment. The playerbase has also grown quite a bit in that time. You should not base anything on those figures.
If we had current figures, that would be another matter. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
356
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Posted - 2014.04.15 23:12:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:gifter Penken wrote:You continue to assert that any increase in T2 BPO production would just be "noise" in total production. Evidence indiacte there are some T2 items where BPO production accounts for 90+% of total production.. In those cases, even a modest increase in T2 BPO production woudl be MUCH MORE than just noise. Those items are so unpopular that demand is met mostly by T2 BPO production. Why would anyone want to build unpopular stuff? Let the T2 BPO owners have at it, as they've no other choice, unlike inventors. Indeed.
Don't want to make an invention profit? Compete with T2 BPO owners in weak markets for unused items that would yield little income even if T2 BPOs did not exist.
Want to make an invention profit? Work in strong markets where there is plenty of demand to go around and the price is set by inventors.
Want the advantages that T2 BPO owners have? Save up and buy one.
Don't want existing T2 BPO owners to have any advantages at all? Don't be so unreasonable. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
357
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Posted - 2014.04.15 23:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
gifter Penken wrote:Make it super hard, and super expensive, but with lots of time and effort, we too could become a T2 BPO holder.... That is the system we have now.
I have a small pile of T2 BPOs and I didn't get any of them from the lottery. I bought each of them with isk that I earned in one way or another. The system as it stands is good. The fact that some people don't like it, for reasons that are more often than not based in ignorance, isn't a good reason to change it. |
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
362
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Posted - 2014.04.16 10:27:00 -
[11] - Quote
Aeonidis wrote:all T2 Invention should be worthwhile to the new inventor and even more worthwhile to the high skilled inventor. So you want it to be a press button recieve bacon situation?
That no matter how over-produced a specific T2 item is, it should always be profitable to produce for the new player and even more profitable to produce for the experienced player?
How is that ever going to work in a free market sandbox?
Doesn't that go totally against everything EVE is about?
What you need is for CCP to keep up with the continuous rebalancing effort, so that more and more T2 products become usefull and all T2 prices are set by the inventors. |
Bad Bobby
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362
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Posted - 2014.04.16 10:43:00 -
[12] - Quote
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:Heh... the production capacity is not an issue. It haven't been in the past either. But I can see where your assumption comes from. The base of your logic is that a player has a T2 BPO and that the volume is not enough to fill or control the market. But, I'm talking about a single player here with 20+ accounts and dozens of T2 BPOs of the same type. Put several players like that in an entity (like a corporation or alliance) and you'll get market control (yes, those are actual persons and not some hypothetical situation... and no, I'm not naming them). I was there while it was happening and I can assure you that they HAD control over the market in the past and they will have it again if the opportunity like what is going to happen in the summer expansion arrives. And yeah... good luck obtaining enough T2 BPOs by buying them to even think of competing on the market. And even if you had enough ISK to do that, do you really think that you'd be simply able to go to the Buy Orders section of the forum and just ask for it and be flooded with offers? Market control is not something an individual is willing to sell - for any amount of ISK. Especially if it's centered around a game mechanics that have been removed for years. Additionally, your argument is still missing the fact that the majority of industrial players play by one rules for years and the handful of players are milking the game mechanics that was discontinued a long time ago). These game mechanics where not removed or discontinued. The T2 BPOs are still here and fully functional. Like many areas of EVE we are all given many alternative ways to achieve the same end result and we can each choose which way suits us. Just because this isn't the way you choose to do it does not make the alternatives wrong, evil or unbalanced.
Yes there has been a long history of T2 BPOs dominating various markets at various times and for various reasons. That problem has become less and less with each passing rebalance, as the breadth of demand for T2 products increases. The best solution for whatever remains of that problem is to continue with the rebalancing.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
363
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Posted - 2014.04.16 10:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Inventors cannot set the prices on all the items. It is impossible for them to undercut BPOs in most cases. That doesn't matter when T2 BPOs cannot meet demand. |
Bad Bobby
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364
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Posted - 2014.04.16 11:22:00 -
[14] - Quote
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:Heh... the production capacity is not an issue. It haven't been in the past either. But I can see where your assumption comes from. The base of your logic is that a player has a T2 BPO and that the volume is not enough to fill or control the market. But, I'm talking about a single player here with 20+ accounts and dozens of T2 BPOs of the same type. Put several players like that in an entity (like a corporation or alliance) and you'll get market control (yes, those are actual persons and not some hypothetical situation... and no, I'm not naming them). I was there while it was happening and I can assure you that they HAD control over the market in the past and they will have it again if the opportunity like what is going to happen in the summer expansion arrives. And yeah... good luck obtaining enough T2 BPOs by buying them to even think of competing on the market. And even if you had enough ISK to do that, do you really think that you'd be simply able to go to the Buy Orders section of the forum and just ask for it and be flooded with offers? Market control is not something an individual is willing to sell - for any amount of ISK. Especially if it's centered around a game mechanics that have been removed for years. Additionally, your argument is still missing the fact that the majority of industrial players play by one rules for years and the handful of players are milking the game mechanics that was discontinued a long time ago). These game mechanics where not removed or discontinued. The T2 BPOs are still here and fully functional. Like many areas of EVE we are all given many alternative ways to achieve the same end result and we can each choose which way suits us. Just because this isn't the way you choose to do it does not make the alternatives wrong, evil or unbalanced. Yes there has been a long history of T2 BPOs dominating various markets at various times and for various reasons. That problem has become less and less with each passing rebalance, as the breadth of demand for T2 products increases. The best solution for whatever remains of that problem is to continue with the rebalancing. So you can still, without investing tens or hundreds of billions of ISK (disregarding the fact that owners won't sell their profitable stock in the first place) and by using an active game mechanic actually play the game and get the T2 BPO the same way others have done it more than 5 years ago? Great, do you mind pointing out where can I do that? Changed and removed are two different things. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
364
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Posted - 2014.04.16 11:26:00 -
[15] - Quote
Aeonidis wrote:I still see an easy button. The T2 BPO holder always gets a copy with little overhead in producing that copy Well that clearly isn't true. At least think about what you post. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
364
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Posted - 2014.04.16 11:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:There are no good reasons other than grandfathering to maintain T2 BPO's Having things to aspire to in industry and having an interesting economic landscape to mess with are both pretty good reasons.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
364
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Posted - 2014.04.16 11:41:00 -
[17] - Quote
Jagoff Haverford wrote:Maybe the answer will come in the "costs" dev blog later on, and there simply aren't any details yet, but I'm struggling to picture anything -- anything at all -- that would push research out of the perfect safety of NPC high sec stations once the slots and waiting times go away. We really need the rest of that information, as half of the people in this thread are pulling their hair out at the prospect of things that will probably never happen.
Jagoff Haverford wrote:Researched BPOs are by far the most valuable asset in the game to any industrialist. A dead Titan is an expensive setback, but you can always build another one. A lost BPO, on the other hand, will not only have to be repurchased, but can take months of research before it's usable for production. I understand what you are trying to say, but your example isn't well chosen. A Titan costs more to replace than a well researched Titan BPO. Researched Titan BPOs are not in short supply and haven't been for some time, you can usually get well researched ones for less than NPC price.
Jagoff Haverford wrote:With this many changes, nobody is going to agree with every change. It may even be amazing if I end up agreeing with the majority of them. But we've needed changes for a very long time, and I'm very appreciative to see CCP make the effort. +1
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
364
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Posted - 2014.04.16 11:54:00 -
[18] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Sure, but again, the GÇ£less thanGÇ¥ reduction is there to make it possible to produce from the BPCs rather than the BPOs. I'm feeling fairly certain that it will only be so much lower that it just compensates for the added production step. I expect much the same thing.
Currently a lot of T2 BPOs are being produced from using POS arrays to gain a higher production output. This increased production output from POS arrays is likely to remain in some form.
Some T2 BPOs are even being produced from in player owned outposts, with even greater production output bonuses, although I will join you in admiring the size of the balls required to take those kinds of risks with a T2 BPO. This possibility will remain (and be encouraged) by the new functionality.
In the future we are expecting to see a copy time reduction on T2 BPOs that makes it viable to produce from BPCs rather than produce from the BPO itself. But will that be true when comparing copying in a safe NPC hi-sec station to producing in faster facilities? |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
365
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Posted - 2014.04.16 11:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
Aeonidis wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Aeonidis wrote:I still see an easy button. The T2 BPO holder always gets a copy with little overhead in producing that copy Well that clearly isn't true. At least think about what you post. so little is relative to the reader? they drop in an R.dB and some data sheets for modules? to the inventor thats little when you consider the previous changes that were made to research agents and FW making datacores essentially a buy only product now. which of course can be lost in the invention process unlike the R.dB or other consumables for T2BPO copying. What about the truely massive opportunity cost of having a T2 BPO rather than it's value in isk? |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
365
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Posted - 2014.04.16 11:59:00 -
[20] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Please wait for the appropriate blog for more details. This is what us waiting looks like.
There is already blood on the dance floor. |
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Bad Bobby
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366
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Posted - 2014.04.16 12:03:00 -
[21] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Will we be able to select several single run bpc's to run multiple invention/manufacturing jobs at once? ? That will probably be part of the UI changes. |
Bad Bobby
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366
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Posted - 2014.04.16 12:06:00 -
[22] - Quote
Aeonidis wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Aeonidis wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Aeonidis wrote:I still see an easy button. The T2 BPO holder always gets a copy with little overhead in producing that copy Well that clearly isn't true. At least think about what you post. so little is relative to the reader? they drop in an R.dB and some data sheets for modules? to the inventor thats little when you consider the previous changes that were made to research agents and FW making datacores essentially a buy only product now. which of course can be lost in the invention process unlike the R.dB or other consumables for T2BPO copying. What about the truely massive opportunity cost of having a T2 BPO rather than it's value in isk? your grasping at straws now, anyone who owns a T2BPO has multiplied their "opportunity cost" many times over since the lottery or hasn't played Eve in over half a decade. You really are just being silly now. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
368
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Posted - 2014.04.16 12:36:00 -
[23] - Quote
Aeonidis wrote:Tippia wrote:Aeonidis wrote:your grasping at straws now, anyone who owns a T2BPO has multiplied their "opportunity cost" many times over since the lottery or hasn't played Eve in over half a decade. Eh, no. The opportunity cost doesn't go away GÇö they still have the opportunity to just turn that BPO into liquid cash. Moreover, many current BPO holders were not around for (or did not win) the lottery and had to buy them later. seriously if that were the case there would be dozens up on the market for every module and ship in the game at any given time. but there aren't, why? because its more profitable to copy and manufacture from them instead. None of this doesn't change the fact that T2Bpo's are an outdated and broken mechanic that pulls a vast sum of ISK into the hands of a very few players at the expense of the entire marketplace. There isn't really much point in arguing over what an opportunity cost is or isn't. It's factual. The word means what the word means. You pretending it doesn't has no effect on that. Words don't work that way.
If the T2 BPOs have a value on the open market, which they provably do, then there is an opportunity cost associated with owning them.
Manufacturing from a T2 BPO yields a return on that investment. But that return is small, often less than 1% per month.
It is a trivial task to find a dozen easy ways to generate more than 1% per month on a large amount of isk.
The reason why most people hold T2 BPOs is because their value has tended to increase over time, so they are speculating on future prices. That is the part of the T2 BPO that many cherish and that is exactly the part of the T2 BPO that has no negative effect on invention.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
368
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Posted - 2014.04.16 12:41:00 -
[24] - Quote
Aeonidis wrote:Tippia wrote:Aeonidis wrote:seriously if that were the case there would be dozens up on the market for every module and ship in the game at any given time. but there aren't, why? In many cases, because people are bad at maths and don't understand opportunity costs. You don't have to look around much to find BPOs for sale, nor do you have to do much maths to notice that it'll take you half a decade or more to earn them backGǪ and yet people buy them. That would be a scam not an opportunity cost. If its so easy to sell them for the "cash" opportunity cost how many do you have up for sale atm? 1. Open the contracts system. 2. Set Item Category to Blueprint Original. 3. Set "Sort Pages By" to "Price (Highest First)". 4. Buy whichever one you want. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
368
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Posted - 2014.04.16 12:55:00 -
[25] - Quote
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:And yes - players that have obtained them by using a discontinued game mechanics HAVE an unfair advantage over all other players simply because of the fact that they are profiting from a game mechanic that is not available to players any more. The mechanic I used to get my T2 BPOs is available to everyone, right now. Even to someone like you.
I even gave you clear, step by step instructions.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
369
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Posted - 2014.04.16 13:28:00 -
[26] - Quote
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:Tippia wrote:Quote:Basically, you are damaging the currently active game mechanic in order to support a legacy one that does not exist any more. It still exists, though, and in many forms so of course they should support it. If they should happen to fix other mechanics at the same time, then it's a definite bonus. The ability to obtain a T2 BPO in a lottery certainly does not exist any more and I know you know that as well. I can start a lottery for one of my T2 BPOs if that would make you feel better. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
371
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Posted - 2014.04.16 14:35:00 -
[27] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:why is this stupid t2 bpo discussion here We have insufficient details on the actual changes for any reasonable discussion.
So an unreasonable discussion broke out instead.
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Bad Bobby
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374
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Posted - 2014.04.16 15:03:00 -
[28] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Hysterical over reactions in this case is not CCP's fault. Nonsense, it's a CCP DEV GOON PL CIA HYRDA RELOADED COMMUNIST consipiracy and we should all run for the hills with utmost urgency. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
377
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Posted - 2014.04.16 15:38:00 -
[29] - Quote
Master Flakattack wrote:I am getting mixed messages here: will POS slots be affected by "congestion" pricing? It would be totally ridiculous to do so, considering the already high cost of operating a POS (which is likely to go up once people can drop a POS anywhere with no standings required) YES. POS slots will be affected by congestion pricing.
We do not know how much it will be and we do not know if there will be other changes that also relate to the economies of running a POS, so there is no need for panic at this time. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
377
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Posted - 2014.04.16 15:55:00 -
[30] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Squelch wrote:H3llHound wrote: One RAM now will become 100 RAM after the patch.
Where did you see this? The only thing I see in the Devblog is: Multiply number of R.AM. and R.Db. given for each run of their respective blueprint by 100. Multiply all R.A.M. and R.Db. job requirements by 100, then further multiply that number by the old damage per run percentage.That doesn't mention existing stocks. Confirming this means existing stock including in market orders, contracts etc |
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
384
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Posted - 2014.04.16 18:16:00 -
[31] - Quote
Max Kolonko wrote:What about my WH POS? Will it also miraculously start paying someone? Those would be some pretty adventurous tax collectors.
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