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Einear Lightfingers
Outer Rim Oreworks Company Galactic Republic Alliance
9
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Posted - 2014.04.21 01:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
Here is an opportunity for my peer CSM Candidates to take a shot at answering the question that many High Sec players want to know. How do you balance a game to meet the needs of more than one type of player?
Over the last few years we have seen a multitude of changes some good and many at the expense of other playerGÇÖs enjoyment... I'm not defending one group or another, but there is a strong belief that CSM and CCP has lost its way in the balancing of the game.
How do you support mechanics that allow for trail characters to become powerful enough to gank miners, throw-away alts for scamming, or worse create a complete new mechanic in the game to further production that within a month is owned by very large alliances (HS POCO for those who can't read between the lines.)
I have received more EVE mails then I would care to admit from players who are on their way out of EVE because it has lost its fun for them. A place where an escape from RL is no longer possible because the deviants they are trying to avoid in RL are now ruining their fantasy world.
I am not saying High Sec should be a SAFE haven, no, more that the constant introduction of mechanics that appear to nerf one group over any other is appalling. I see more and more how do we keep new players, how do we fix the constant war declarations on small corps, how do we mine in peace.
I have no answers straight from the cuff. My first response is to challenge CCP to be consistent and acknowledge more than one playing style. I then accuse the CSM of pushing forward their own agenda and/or succumbing to the peer pressure of low/null sec handlers who put them in office. CCP needs to invest more in surveying newer players and players who cancel subscriptions to determine the loss of revenue instead of turning a blind eye to the internal relationships and behind the scenes gifts they give to a specific player base.
Unus pro omnibus, omnes pro uno (One for All GÇô All for One.) |
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1070
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Posted - 2014.04.21 02:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
High sec IS represented (or was, this past CSM8) by me.
But more to the point. There is a mistaken belief that Null players want Hisec nerfed into the ground.
Maybe the stupid ones do but not the reps I talked with on CSM8. They know better. They know that the game is supposed to be a balance of risk and reward. That no place is totally safe but you play the odds and they will pay you back.
The game has been unbalanced when there was very very little point in low or null industry. But if measures are made to make the choices more viable it is seen, not as a movement towards balance, as a move to nerf hisec. I was challenged to name changes that benefit hisec and I rattled off a few and then the goalposts were moved. Changes happen and hopefully they will continue to happen.
Iterations and rebalances show that CCP does not make it and forget it (anymore).
But to expect every change will benefit one group over another is to expect the game to be killing itself off.
Long term, I seriously doubt that CCP has that goal but you can always vote with your wallet. Even temporarily. Short term you can Vote for CSM people who want to represent you. Yeah, like me but there are others who also care about industry and balance.
If you think none of us are 'doing it right' then find a well spoken person to run for your advocacy group in CSM10
m Mike Azariah-á CSM8 |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
5169
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 04:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
Einear Lightfingers wrote: How do you support mechanics that allow for trail characters to become powerful enough to gank miners
Because new players are allowed to be effective in combat.
Are you seriously asking this? What in the seven hells is wrong with you? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
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Major JSilva
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
249
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Posted - 2014.04.21 06:26:00 -
[4] - Quote
I think its easy to forget that even though a CSM candidate may be elected by a certain player base in Eve. They are still representing the entire community to CCP. Twitter: @Silva117 |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15168
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Posted - 2014.04.21 07:48:00 -
[5] - Quote
Einear Lightfingers wrote:Here is an opportunity for my peer CSM Candidates to take a shot at answering the question that many High Sec players want to know. How do you balance a game to meet the needs of more than one type of player?
Over the last few years we have seen a multitude of changes some good and many at the expense of other playerGÇÖs enjoyment... I'm not defending one group or another, but there is a strong belief that CSM and CCP has lost its way in the balancing of the game.
How do you support mechanics that allow for trail characters to become powerful enough to gank miners, throw-away alts for scamming, or worse create a complete new mechanic in the game to further production that within a month is owned by very large alliances (HS POCO for those who can't read between the lines.)
I have received more EVE mails then I would care to admit from players who are on their way out of EVE because it has lost its fun for them. A place where an escape from RL is no longer possible because the deviants they are trying to avoid in RL are now ruining their fantasy world.
I am not saying High Sec should be a SAFE haven, no, more that the constant introduction of mechanics that appear to nerf one group over any other is appalling. I see more and more how do we keep new players, how do we fix the constant war declarations on small corps, how do we mine in peace.
I have no answers straight from the cuff. My first response is to challenge CCP to be consistent and acknowledge more than one playing style. I then accuse the CSM of pushing forward their own agenda and/or succumbing to the peer pressure of low/null sec handlers who put them in office. CCP needs to invest more in surveying newer players and players who cancel subscriptions to determine the loss of revenue instead of turning a blind eye to the internal relationships and behind the scenes gifts they give to a specific player base.
Unus pro omnibus, omnes pro uno (One for All GÇô All for One.)
CCP specifically changed the mining barges to allow you a choice; you can choose between better yield, better convenience and much better tank. They deliberately gave you exactly what you say you need from them.
I am prepared to bet a large sum of ISK that you have not been flying Procurers or Skiffs. I am further prepared to wager that you have not even been optimally tanking your Mackinaws. Instead you have chosen convenience, not bothered to fit your ship properly, carried right on mining semi-AFK and now you'[re complaining that your choices have led to you losing your ships.
If you can send me an EVEmail with links to 3 API-verified lossmails dated before this post showing that you have been killed in a Procurer or Skiff, and that those losses were to "ships a trial account can fly", and that they weren't wardecceed to you at the time, I'll send you a billion ISK.
I think my money is safe. Here is my CSM9 endorsement list - vote for diversity of expertise : Ali Aras-á Mangala Solaris-á Mike Azariah-á Steve Ronuken James Arget-á Xander Phoena-á Sugar Kyle-á corbexx-á mynnna-á progodlegend-á Psychotic Monk-á Jayne Fillion
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3103
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Posted - 2014.04.21 11:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
It should be noted:
Someone rolling trial accounts to avoid consequences of suicide ganking people = someone that's going to get banned. Ditto with rolling new alts for the same purposes.
As people above me have said, the choice is between: Newbies being about to be at all effective. Newbies being unable to kill someone in a mining barge.
Now, I could possibly see some benefit to a damage scaling mechanism, so smaller guns do less damage to larger targets, but that's probably just asking for trouble.
Steve Ronuken for CSM 9! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4236322 http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
HIFI INDUSTRIAL The Kadeshi
284
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Posted - 2014.04.22 10:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:...Iterations and rebalances show that CCP does not make it and forget it (anymore)... Does that also include PI?
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mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3407
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 12:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
Over the last few years we have seen a multitude of changes some good and many at the expense of other playerGÇÖs enjoyment... I'm not defending one group or another, but there is a strong belief that CSM and CCP has lost its way in the balancing of the game. "I'm not getting everything I want" or "I'm not being allowed to continue in my bubble unaffected" is what people are equating to "lost its way."
How do you support mechanics that allow for trail characters to become powerful enough to gank miners, throw-away alts for scamming, or worse create a complete new mechanic in the game to further production that within a month is owned by very large alliances (HS POCO for those who can't read between the lines.) Conversely, miners have better options for resisting ganks in the first place and as Steve noted, recycling said alts is grounds for a ban. I'm not even sure what you're referring to by throwing away alts for scamming (but someone falling for scams from these supposed throw away alts would fall for them from "mains" too, no doubt). And there are something like ten thousand POCOs in highsec, please provide documented proof that every last one of them is owned by very large alliances; also note that the largest such grouping of them that I am aware of them is owned by RvB which, of course, has its roots in highsec.
I have received more EVE mails then I would care to admit from players who are on their way out of EVE because it has lost its fun for them. A place where an escape from RL is no longer possible because the deviants they are trying to avoid in RL are now ruining their fantasy world. Really not earning any points when you label someone whose preferred playstyle conflicts with yours in a game that allows it to as "deviants".
I am not saying High Sec should be a SAFE haven, no, more that the constant introduction of mechanics that appear to nerf one group over any other is appalling. I see more and more how do we keep new players, how do we fix the constant war declarations on small corps, how do we mine in peace. It sure sounds like you're saying highsec should be a save haven. See aforementioned comments about "I want to play in a bubble" though.
I then accuse the CSM of pushing forward their own agenda and/or succumbing to the peer pressure of low/null sec handlers who put them in office. So on a personal level I'm somewhat insulted by your notion that I & others on the council are just "puppets" of "handlers", and I find the subtle implication that you are by contrast a ~free thinker~ to be incredibly pretentious as well. Yet on the other hand, of course the CSM "pushes its own agenda/the agenda of our constituents." By definition that is the agenda with which we are probably the most familiar, and it's the job of an individual CSM member to convince both the rest of the CSM and CCP that it's an agenda of value. The sum total of those actions by each individual member that leads to the whole game getting represented, rather than the ridiculous idea that every member is supposed to be intimately familiar with every aspect of the game so as to represent it all, as so many uninformed or naive players like to claim. I should also point out that if you do a bad job of convincing the rest of the CSM that your agenda is of value, you're probably not going to have much luck convincing CCP, either.
CCP needs to invest more in surveying newer players and players who cancel subscriptions to determine the loss of revenue I agree, it would be a good idea to investigate players who cancel do so. What you're doing is assuming that they don't already do this.
...instead of turning a blind eye to the internal relationships and behind the scenes gifts they give to a specific player base. [Citation Needed] Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Mike Azariah
DemSal Corporation DemSal Unlimited
1077
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 17:55:00 -
[9] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:...Iterations and rebalances show that CCP does not make it and forget it (anymore)... Does that also include PI?
I knew someone would spot one of the recent changes that might be argued. I could point out the changes in poco ownership in hisec as an iteration but that might be belabouring the point.
Let's just say we fight to keep them on the iteration path and I do not know of a single mechanic ibn Eve that could not stand another polishing pass.
m Mike Azariah-á CSM8 |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
HIFI INDUSTRIAL The Kadeshi
284
|
Posted - 2014.04.23 10:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Mike Azariah wrote:...Iterations and rebalances show that CCP does not make it and forget it (anymore)... Does that also include PI? ...I knew someone would spot one of the recent changes that might be argued... m Not really arguing... just wondering.
PI feeds Industry; and with industry getting 'adjusted'... I thought maybe something not covered by NDA was out there.
Just fishing. |
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Bi-Mi Lansatha
HIFI INDUSTRIAL The Kadeshi
284
|
Posted - 2014.04.23 10:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
Einear Lightfingers wrote:...I then accuse the CSM of pushing forward their own agenda...
Did not Ali Aras (in part) run on the platform of "New Player Experience"? She was on my ballot for that reason.
CCP Arrow GÇô Game Design Director
"The 8th CSM has been extremely productive and helpful this past year. They have been available almost 24/7 to answer questions and give input on design research and ideas. A special thanks to Ali for her passion and interest in New Player Experience improvements and focus group efforts."
Einear Lightfingers wrote:...and/or succumbing to the peer pressure of low/null sec handlers who put them in office... Malcanis "succumbing to the peer pressure". |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
HIFI INDUSTRIAL The Kadeshi
284
|
Posted - 2014.04.23 12:00:00 -
[12] - Quote
Einear Lightfingers wrote:Here is an opportunity for my peer CSM Candidates to take a shot at answering the question that many High Sec players want to know. How do you balance a game to meet the needs of more than one type of player?... I think the point/goal is not 'balance'.
"...So, YES, null-sec should have better income for EVERYTHING than high-sec. It should be better for EVERYTHING than high-sec.
Simple enough to understand?..."
Ripard Teg |
Harrigan VonStudly
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
71
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 13:37:00 -
[13] - Quote
Major JSilva wrote:I think its easy to forget that even though a CSM candidate may be elected by a certain player base in Eve. They are still representing the entire community to CCP.
The man speaketh the truth |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15214
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 22:37:00 -
[14] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Einear Lightfingers wrote:Here is an opportunity for my peer CSM Candidates to take a shot at answering the question that many High Sec players want to know. How do you balance a game to meet the needs of more than one type of player?... I think the point/goal is not 'balance'. "...So, YES, null-sec should have better income for EVERYTHING than high-sec. It should be better for EVERYTHING than high-sec. Simple enough to understand?..." Ripard Teg
Mmmm the delicious taste of quote mining.
Here is my CSM9 endorsement list - vote for diversity of expertise : Ali Aras-á Mangala Solaris-á Mike Azariah-á Steve Ronuken James Arget-á Xander Phoena-á Sugar Kyle-á corbexx-á mynnna-á progodlegend-á Psychotic Monk-á Jayne Fillion
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15214
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 22:40:00 -
[15] - Quote
Still awaiting those KM links btw
Hurry up before I spend that ISK on a new tackle proteus Here is my CSM9 endorsement list - vote for diversity of expertise : Ali Aras-á Mangala Solaris-á Mike Azariah-á Steve Ronuken James Arget-á Xander Phoena-á Sugar Kyle-á corbexx-á mynnna-á progodlegend-á Psychotic Monk-á Jayne Fillion
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Bi-Mi Lansatha
HIFI INDUSTRIAL The Kadeshi
284
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Posted - 2014.04.25 07:54:00 -
[16] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:
Mmmm the delicious taste of quote mining.
It is an interesting quote, which I don't believe is taken out of context.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15242
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 00:29:00 -
[17] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Malcanis wrote:
Mmmm the delicious taste of quote mining.
It is an interesting quote, which I don't believe is taken out of context.
It is when you've literally stripped the exact context that Ripard used to make his quote entirely about balance. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!" |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15242
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 00:35:00 -
[18] - Quote
Still no proc/skiff KMs in my inbox btw "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!" |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
HIFI INDUSTRIAL The Kadeshi
284
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 17:41:00 -
[19] - Quote
Malcanis wrote: It is when you've literally stripped the exact context that Ripard used to make his quote entirely about balance.
Did I? That was not my intent... and I don't believe that is what I did. He basically stated his position was that Highsec is the equivalent of a low level starter zone. Higher levels are in nullsec.... with higher levels come great rewards.
Was this not his position?
"Your premise is completely ridiculous, though. In ANY other MMO, where are you going to make more money? The level 1 to level 15 area? Or the areas for higher level players? Sure, you can take your L80 player to the L1-15 area and leave him there forever. And that's exactly what a lot of EVE players have been content to do.
And that applies to high-sec players whether those players want to do industry or suicide gank newbies and mining ships."
Ripard Teg
"You seem to think that high-sec should have the same value as null-sec, which is simply ridiculous. As I said above, should L1-15 areas in other MMOs have the same value as the areas for much higher level players?
So, YES, null-sec should have better income for EVERYTHING than high-sec. It should be better for EVERYTHING than high-sec. "
Ripard Teg |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3418
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 19:00:00 -
[20] - Quote
Personally more a fan of the idea behind Malcanis' old manifesto, wherein any area has content of all levels (and associated dangers) available to it. The idea that a given area of space in EVE is or should be the (beginning/middle/end)game is kinda dumb. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
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Bi-Mi Lansatha
HIFI INDUSTRIAL The Kadeshi
284
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Posted - 2014.04.28 06:39:00 -
[21] - Quote
From my very limited experience...
What Highsec can support that Null can't... is casual play. Logging in every couple a days on your own schedule to do something for 30-45 minutes can be supported. This can be done in a some/most player Corp or in an NPC Corp.
In Null, more than likely, you will get kicked out of the Corp/Alliance. The requirements to operate in Null are just to high to allow casual play on a large scale.
Just my opinion... I reserve the right to be wrong. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
158
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Posted - 2014.04.28 13:23:00 -
[22] - Quote
In lowsec, you can log on for 30-45 minutes and solo roam.
There are several FW or pirate corps that are ok with casual players too.
If not, you can stay NPC or one-man corp and, provided you make a few friends, they will be happy to have you tag along in fleet for an hour or so if they have one up and you're a decent PVP-er and pleasant person.
Don't know about null. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1301
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Posted - 2014.04.30 02:14:00 -
[23] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:In lowsec, you can log on for 30-45 minutes and solo roam.
There are several FW or pirate corps that are ok with casual players too.
If not, you can stay NPC or one-man corp and, provided you make a few friends, they will be happy to have you tag along in fleet for an hour or so if they have one up and you're a decent PVP-er and pleasant person.
Don't know about null. This assumes you can make an income however somewhere else to support that PvPing. Since it's easy to loose several hours worth of max income grinding in 5 minutes in a roam, you have to be able to tick that over. And while Low sec certainly can make an income, it's tricky to make such an income if you only log in for a brief time period every couple of days since you won't know the locals well.
This doesn't make the 'casual' any less skilled a player, there are plenty of casuals who have a very good understanding of things. It just means they don't have the time available to invest. |
Amyclas Amatin
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
240
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Posted - 2014.05.02 01:01:00 -
[24] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:From my very limited experience... What Highsec can support that Null can't... is casual play. Logging in every couple a days on your own schedule to do something for 30-45 minutes can be supported. This can be done in a some/most player Corp or in an NPC Corp. In Null, more than likely, you will get kicked out of the Corp/Alliance. The requirements to operate in Null are just to high to allow casual play on a large scale. Just my opinion... I reserve the right to be wrong.
You should see Theta Squad... For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/ High-Sec has a future, But do You? Buy a Mining Permit to Secure yours today. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7273
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 22:40:00 -
[25] - Quote
can't imagine why this whiner didn't win a seat Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
15296
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 23:26:00 -
[26] - Quote
Never did see those KM links
And easy bill lost :( "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!" |
Mikael Menethil
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.15 15:34:00 -
[27] - Quote
Maybe they are not interested in satisfying a wider player base.
I've played more than a dozen MMOs in the last 10 years and I can safely say that EVE is a niche, suitable only for highly competitive players.
You need to be a certain type of person in order to appreciate the mechanics of this game. A "certain type" is a very limited market. Also, the "you don't like it, leave" attitude will limit that market even more. The veterans are shutting newbies up on the forums.
Maybe it's time you hire a talented UX designer. I suggest an entire team.. |
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
209
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Posted - 2014.05.19 16:54:00 -
[28] - Quote
Einear Lightfingers wrote: I am not saying High Sec should be a SAFE haven, no, more that the constant introduction of mechanics that appear to nerf one group over any other is appalling. I see more and more how do we keep new players, how do we fix the constant war declarations on small corps, how do we mine in peace.
CCPgames has provided it's hisec player base a Mercenary Marketplace to exact revenge and arrange for protection all for ISK
Now this is not a "Buzz" word CCPgames invented but a fleshed out iteration on promised content, oh wait
http://www.eveonline.com/inferno/mercenary-marketplace/
Eve rule no.1: The players will make a better version of the game, then CCP initially plans.
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg
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Frying Doom
3650
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Posted - 2014.05.20 13:05:00 -
[29] - Quote
Thank you to the CSM for a very funny read.
This thread and the why the CSM thread.
Players come along and state an opinion, the CSM or in the case of the other thread CCP comes along and attacks them for their views. Rather than finding out more about their view point.
And CCP and the CSM wonders why no one bothers to vote and that they are now below 10% And EvE subs are dropping.
Some very funny stuff thank you. Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!! |
Revolution Rising
Killson Corp Circle-Of-Two
390
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Posted - 2014.05.24 15:37:00 -
[30] - Quote
Mikael Menethil wrote:Maybe they are not interested in satisfying a wider player base.
I've played more than a dozen MMOs in the last 10 years and I can safely say that EVE is a niche, suitable only for highly competitive players.
You need to be a certain type of person in order to appreciate the mechanics of this game. A "certain type" is a very limited market. Also, the "you don't like it, leave" attitude will limit that market even more. The veterans are shutting newbies up on the forums.
Maybe it's time you hire a talented UX designer. I suggest an entire team..
I'm personally just not sure what the niche IS ?
Supposedly the game is a sandbox ? Or is it just a PVP Game with sandbox ELEMENTS ?
In a sandbox, all playstyles should be treated equally by CCP imo. That should be a game design philosphy.
Otherwise you advertise a sandbox where anyone can play as anything, but then ignore 80% of them to cater for your supposed "niche".
However, we're now seeing year 8 (for me) of ship rebalancing, after many years of 0.0 "fixes", POS Mechanic "Fixes".
First year I've ever seen any change to industry.
I'm just saying that perhaps this perception of ccp not caring about empire is actually the fact that they don't care about industry in general unless the market is obliterating itself because NPC stations still stock shuttles.
There's a plethora of things to be done just for basic professions like mining that a new ******* ship will not fix. And yet ... nothing.
As someone who's mined in this game for 8 years, just the idea of the cloaking mining frigate is a testament to complete and utter stupidity and ignorance of the mining profession as a whole, the needs and wants of people who mine and the general idiocy of voters who THINK they know what they need or want on the forums and CCP's inability to parse that data. <- A long sentence for a long tirade. CSM7 Skype Leak
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