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[Summer 2014] Revelation needs a new second bonus

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Mr Hyde113 Origin. Black Legion. 126	Posted - 2014.04.21 23:35:00 - [1] - Quote The Revelation needs to have its 10% reduction in Capital Energy Turret activation cost replaced with something useful, and have that cap usage reduction partially rolled into the guns. This will still leave the Revelation's guns cap hungry compared to blasters/rails, but the addition of an actual second bonus will give the Revelation some kind of advantage/specialty compared to the Moros or Naglfar, instead of it just being a second class turret dread. 2nd Damage bonus? Armour Resist? Tracking? I don't know what it should be, but i'd like some kind of acknowledgement from CCP that this is being looked at. Your Angry Amarr Advocate, -Hyde
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 5193	Posted - 2014.04.21 23:38:00 - [2] - Quote This is basically the case for the entire Laser line of weaponry. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." -áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
Nariya Kentaya Phoenix funds 1216	Posted - 2014.04.21 23:53:00 - [3] - Quote Originally lasers were supposed to be wtf-awesome, with the high cap penalty ensuring only amarr ships could wield them so they didnt becoem the de-facto weapon ssytem (kinda like autos and arties were on EVERY factions ships for a while), problem was, people complained, lasers have been nerfed, repeatedly, but the drawbacks to using them havent been changed. but dont worry, if trends serve, CCP will be doing away with thsoe pesky to balance lasers soon, reaplcing everything in the amarr lineup with neut/missile/drone boats with no clear defined roll or guiding purpose.
Lyra Gerie Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation 28	Posted - 2014.04.21 23:54:00 - [4] - Quote Knowing amarr an armor resist bonus wouldn't be farfetched at all. Damage isn't likely as it already has one damage bonus and another would make it more gallente then the moros. It wont likely get tracking either because that is also more of a gallente bonus. Optimal range is a possibility. It would be interesting to see a possible scan res bonus. That would be unique in the dread line and give it it's own niche. It could be hilarious to see a MJD bonus but that's just crazy talk.
BadAssMcKill ElitistOps 735	Posted - 2014.04.21 23:57:00 - [5] - Quote Funnily enough the rev uses less cap than the moros Lyra Gerie wrote: Knowing amarr an armor resist bonus wouldn't be farfetched at all. Damage isn't likely as it already has one damage bonus and another would make it more gallente then the moros. It wont likely get tracking either because that is also more of a gallente bonus. Optimal range is a possibility. It would be interesting to see a possible scan res bonus. That would be unique in the dread line and give it it's own niche. It could be hilarious to see a MJD bonus but that's just crazy talk. Armor resist is practically useless on a dread and the Moros and the Nag both have double damage bonuses so its not too crazy to give the Rev double damage as well. Tracking and optimal would probably be hilariously op though .
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 1260	Posted - 2014.04.21 23:58:00 - [6] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: This is basically the case for the entire Laser line of weaponry. They've already set the precedent for doing this with large lasers. They eliminated nearly every single cap bonus for BS's (Navy Geddon being the only exception I think) and applied a 15-20% reduction in cap across the board to large sized lasers. As well as slightly trimming down the crazy PG requirements also compared to other weapons. I think beams now actually match artis rather than being significantly more expensive for PG. I personally feel they need about another 10% on Large lasers for cap reduction as they still require nearly triple the cap of blasters & rails, but they've at least acknowledged the issue exists and done things about it.
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 5194	Posted - 2014.04.22 00:04:00 - [7] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: I personally feel they need about another 10% on Large lasers for cap reduction as they still require nearly triple the cap of blasters & rails, but they've at least acknowledged the issue exists and done things about it. I'd cut another 20% across the board for Large, beams and pulse. The smaller and larger categories have yet to be taken care of. The major issue I still have with how it was handled, is that they only "acknowledged the issue" when it was pointed out to them that the original draft of the Apocalypse could only fire it's guns(and just it's guns) at the time for seventy seconds. That's not encouraging. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." -áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
l0rd carlos Friends Of Harassment The Camel Empire 914	Posted - 2014.04.22 00:23:00 - [8] - Quote 5% Bonus to Salvager cycle time. German blog about smallscale lowsec pvp: http://friendsofharassment.wordpress.com
Hopelesshobo Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade 202	Posted - 2014.04.22 00:45:00 - [9] - Quote 50% mining yield bonus while in siege per level. Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Rowells Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans 484	Posted - 2014.04.22 01:03:00 - [10] - Quote Hopelesshobo wrote: 50% mining yield bonus while in siege per level. Chribba would love this.

Lucine Delacourt The Covenant of Blood 151	Posted - 2014.04.22 01:33:00 - [11] - Quote Adding T2 cap guns could help a little. Access to Scorch is a huge buff to most ships.
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 1260	Posted - 2014.04.22 01:58:00 - [12] - Quote Lucine Delacourt wrote: Adding T2 cap guns could help a little. Access to Scorch is a huge buff to most ships. Except that is mainly to do with range. But Cap guns already have good range. & the other Dreads get buffed just as much by adding T2. So it would be a buff, but wouldn't change the relative weakness of the Rev.
Rowells Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans 484	Posted - 2014.04.22 02:49:00 - [13] - Quote Lucine Delacourt wrote: Adding T2 cap guns could help a little. Access to Scorch is a huge buff to most ships. I think T2 capital weapons would be awesome. However, the weapons would need to be rebalanced around the ammo bonuses.
Flyinghotpocket Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica 317	Posted - 2014.04.22 03:25:00 - [14] - Quote CCP will decide to make this the first ever ship with a bonus to beams. 100% optimal range on beams only anybody? lol you know its true

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire 11738	Posted - 2014.04.22 06:53:00 - [15] - Quote Rowells wrote: Hopelesshobo wrote: 50% mining yield bonus while in siege per level. Chribba would love this. Sorry couldn't type while heart was doing 200bpm GÿàGÿàGÿà Secure 3rd party service GÿàGÿàGÿà Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar' Twitter @Chribba

Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation Ineluctable. 410	Posted - 2014.04.22 08:25:00 - [16] - Quote I disagree with the Cap reduction bonus removed from the Revelation. It's currently the only thing that keeps it competitive, especially when faced with neuting ships and/or in prolonged fights where you also have to use your Capital Repairer. Removing this bonus puts the Rev in a massive disadvantage over the other Dreads - at least as long as the current capacitor hungry dread weapons stay as is.
HiddenPorpoise Under Dark 187	Posted - 2014.04.22 08:41:00 - [17] - Quote Replace cap reduction bonus with max cap bonus, there, you can out rep a moros without hitting its dps.
The BlackPrince Inner Visions Of Sound Mind 12	Posted - 2014.04.22 08:58:00 - [18] - Quote Don't forget to look at the phoenix as well. I would argue it's far worse than the revelation. Currently building carriers and rorquals. Contact me for a cheap capital ship.
Mr Hyde113 Origin. Black Legion. 126	Posted - 2014.04.22 11:25:00 - [19] - Quote The main issue is that since the Naglfar and Moros received double damage bonuses and the Revelation didn't, it is out-damaged and out-tracked at ranges where lasers usually shine. Yes, it is a sad by product of the power creep, but just leaving things where they are for months or years is just reinforcing the idea of "X dread is just BETTER than Y" instead of " X dread is better at ____ but Y dread is better at ____". The Revelation using slightly less cap the Moros to fire its guns is a bit of an oddity, and not needing to reload is a natural trait of lasers not an advantage, just like not needing cap is a natural trait of projectiles. In an ideal world, the Rev would be able to project its high damage over a longer optimal range than blasters/autos, but loses out on the close-range damage/tracking of the moros, and the long falloff of autos. This base turret model holds true in subcaps, but falls apart at capitals because the double damage bonuses of its competitors wipes out any niche that lasers had to begin with. Imagine for a second that the reload time on the Naglfar's guns were 20 seconds to balance the lack of cap usage, and to mitigate this, the Nag was given a "10% reduction in reload time per level" as its second bonus. See the issue? Fold the penalty into the guns to where the Rev will use naturally use slightly more cap than the moros, but in turn will get something that gives it a reason to be used, other than its beautiful golden hull. Right now there is next to no reason why a new pilot looking to train into dreads would pick the Revelation over the Naglfar and Moros. If I wasn't loyal to Amarr, I would have already just trained for one of the others and followed the rest of the player base. I'd rather advocate against this factional bias and get the Revelation competitive again,. The Moros and Naglfar have their respective advantages where they beat each other, but the Revelation is just worse. Lets change that. As boring as a second damage bonus is, it is unfortunately the way they have gone with the other two and it would shift the Rev's damage curve to the right, so it would actually out damage the moros at medium ranges. It is the simplest solution. Other ideas might be better, but they are ALL off the table until CCP acknowledges this is a balance issue, instead of leaving the Rev out in the cold, while it embraces its favored children Moros and Naglfar.
Abrazzar Vardaugas Family 2947	Posted - 2014.04.22 13:04:00 - [20] - Quote Maybe give it a capacitor recharge bonus? That would increase sustainability in combat and reduce breaks between jumps. It'd work like the capacitor use bonus it currently has, just better. Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics

Blodhgarm Dethahal Transcendent Sedition Dustm3n 103	Posted - 2014.04.22 13:53:00 - [21] - Quote Roll the cap bonus into the guns? yes please... Give second damage bonus? yes please... So my Revelation will now out damage a Naglfar is what I am hearing, just with limited damage types and worst tracking. Seems like a reasonable trade off to me, and I still keep all my advantages that I had before: capacitor, good damage projection, cheap ammo, and best armor tank out of all the Dreads. -Bl+¦d
Esteban Dragonovic Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation 82	Posted - 2014.04.22 15:17:00 - [22] - Quote How about we fix the phoenix first. You can at least hit things in a Revelation.
Mr Hyde113 Origin. Black Legion. 129	Posted - 2014.04.22 15:19:00 - [23] - Quote Esteban Dragonovic wrote: How about we fix the phoenix first. You can at least hit things in a Revelation. I love how so many people's answer to this is "well the phoenix is worse". Well I don't disagree that it needs a re-vamp as well, but one should not come at the cost of the other. I say WHY NOT BOTH CCP?
Abyss Azizora Astro Industrial Technologies 108	Posted - 2014.04.22 15:32:00 - [24] - Quote Agreed, fix both the revelation and pheonix. At least the capital ship rebalance will be around spring next year, if we're insanely lucky, maybe around newyear's day.
luredivino Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 42	Posted - 2014.04.22 15:50:00 - [25] - Quote CCP's solution is going to be nerfing the moros and the nag. Just watch.
Paikis Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate 1164	Posted - 2014.04.22 16:21:00 - [26] - Quote I like the idea of the Rev having more raw damage than the Moros/Naglfar, but having worse tracking. It's a bit sad though that you could literally give the Rev an extra turret, and it would still do less DPS than the Moros.
Mr Hyde113 Origin. Black Legion. 130	Posted - 2014.04.22 22:06:00 - [27] - Quote Abyss Azizora wrote: Agreed, fix both the revelation and pheonix. At least the capital ship rebalance will be around spring next year, if we're insanely lucky, maybe around newyear's day. I don't see why this change would have to wait until next year. Its not like they waited for a full capital pass for the Naglfar re-balance.
Arronicus Ravens' Nest Outlaw Horizon. 927	Posted - 2014.04.22 22:35:00 - [28] - Quote BadAssMcKill wrote: Funnily enough the rev uses less cap than the moros Lyra Gerie wrote: Knowing amarr an armor resist bonus wouldn't be farfetched at all. Damage isn't likely as it already has one damage bonus and another would make it more gallente then the moros. It wont likely get tracking either because that is also more of a gallente bonus. Optimal range is a possibility. It would be interesting to see a possible scan res bonus. That would be unique in the dread line and give it it's own niche. It could be hilarious to see a MJD bonus but that's just crazy talk. Armor resist is practically useless on a dread and the Moros and the Nag both have double damage bonuses so its not too crazy to give the Rev double damage as well. Tracking and optimal would probably be hilariously op though Not crazy to give the rev double damage, no, but threatens the game with further homogenization. The revelation is particularly effective where it comes to changing range of weapons quickly, and not having to carry large amounts of ammo, or regularly resupply it. This is in addition to its low capacitor usage, which makes it very convenient for structure bashing, and fights where targets might be at varying ranges. Scan res? It's intentionally low, and considering dreads are intended as anti capital/structure, I think this would not only be counter-intuitive for their designed role, it'd be unhelpful bordering on useless for anyone using them for those fashions. If anything, they might become more of a go-to for sleeper-sites, which I don't think is the direction CCP wants to take. Armor resist, could actually be very interesting, as it might enable a rev to stand up longer in small capital brawls,vs 1 or 2 supers, or versus a control tower until coming out of siege, or help arrives. Optimal range could also present some interesting options, in line with some amarr battleships.
Mr Hyde113 Origin. Black Legion. 132	Posted - 2014.05.01 19:23:00 - [29] - Quote So now that the phoenix buff has been confirmed lets talk about how this affects the Revelation. If CCP wanted to follow the same formula for the Rev as they did for the new phoenix, then we could see something like this: Replacing 5% Capital Energy Rate of Fire per level bonus with 10% Capital Energy Turret Damage per level Replacing 10% Capital Energy Turret Capacitor Usage per level bonus with 4% Armor Resistance Bonus Reducing Capital Energy Turret base capacitor usage by 25% What would this accomplish? It would give the Rev a specialization, in dealing less raw damage with worse tracking than the Moros and Nag all at a higher cap use, but having greater resilience and staying power with a great tank and no ammo usage. It does exactly what Amarr is supposed to do, while keeping the dreads different enough to prevent homogenization. Remember that Rate of Fire bonuses are more powerful in overall DPS than equivalent damage bonuses, so a single 10% Damage bonus would be a nice middle ground between its current single ROF bonus, and the double bonuses (ROF and Damage) of the Naglfar and Moros.
MeBiatch GRR GOONS 1833	Posted - 2014.05.01 19:35:00 - [30] - Quote Mr Hyde113 wrote: The Revelation needs to have its 10% reduction in Capital Energy Turret activation cost replaced with something useful, and have that cap usage reduction partially rolled into the guns. This will still leave the Revelation's guns cap hungry compared to blasters/rails, but the addition of an actual second bonus will give the Revelation some kind of advantage/specialty compared to the Moros or Naglfar, instead of it just being a second class turret dread. 2nd Damage bonus? Armour Resist? Tracking? I don't know what it should be, but i'd like some kind of acknowledgement from CCP that this is being looked at for the summer update. Your Angry Amarr Advocate, -Hyde since the pheonix is getting the shield resist bonus it is only logical that the rev gets a armor resist bonus too. There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request



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