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Roue
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Posted - 2006.05.18 14:51:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Roue on 18/05/2006 14:56:02
I've been thinking alot lately about the differences between EVE and other MMO's. One of the differences I feel more and more adamant about is a general speed of the game.
The rate at which content is consumed in most MMO's can be startling compared to the time it takes for developers to produce it. Much like a simple simpson's donut factory could show you that even the combined efforts of the world's pastry production would inevitably be unable to satisfy homer's incessant appetite.
This seems to be one of the reasons grinds and the now more so typical repetitious minute progress with a carrot waved result is common place. It buys the devs time to produce the next flavor for the donut which keeps people somewhat patient for it's release.
But what I really have begun to feel is that we, as players of EVE, have a serious advantage. And this is not my revelation, it's more that CCP perhaps doesn't make full use of this advantage. My beloved devs seem to be original in concept, but teetering towards typical in their fears?
In EVE content is self produced for the most part. I would ask anyone to tell me what features in eve in the way of "given" content are actually superior to any "given" content in competing MMO.s Eve is as lustrous as a set of brown blocks of irregular shape. But because the freedom of combination has been given us, our imagination spends years hooked to producing infinite results.
And the opportunity I think CCP has is evident in this. This is not a game, In my opinion, where you must struggle to constantly produce a new shine to ensnare. In fact I would wager that every broken original block weighs more heavily in the minds of the creative player base then every new shape or color.
So ultimately what I would implore is for CCP to reach towards what I believe a majority of players, and I refer to the ones who's come to know and appreciate this game, not those who trial, demand changes and then unsub. Focus on what you have, focus on refinement. RIght now it feels like it's 75% new content drive, 25% fix. or less even. WHen I feel it should perhaps be more 25% new content drive, 75% fix.
Eve is the best MMO out there, rated, growing, loved, devs adored, etc. It has been for some time, tearing apart all the competition which perfect the carrot expansion syndrom. I think it's time we clean up the loose ends, we start creating a stable balanced universe for the true dreams of EVE to manifest.
Fix > Feature.
For me at least. And I know I've said it before, probably in a dozen discussions. Some of my greatest desires for an expansion, are changing issues revolving around sniping/ganking, instas, local, sovereignty, defense advantage, tech2 production, frigate vs BS role effectiveness etc.
Maybe I'm wrong, I do think more consumers = more cash = more CCP happyness to create. But in my mind I fear that cash will just go to more devs making more shiny for more customers. It's an all too familiar curve. With all too familiar and tragic end.
But, heh, maybe it's just me.
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Tuang Pao
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Posted - 2006.05.18 14:54:00 -
[2]
No, it's not just you. I agree wholeheartedly with you.
Fix first, then new content. Don't put the cart before the horse.
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.05.18 14:56:00 -
[3]
/signed
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Crumplecorn
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Posted - 2006.05.18 14:57:00 -
[4]
In fact, don't put the cart or the horse in yet, fix the bugs first.
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Sorry but that link contains nawty language. -wystler
"Discussing moderation is not allowed" - Ivan K
"Ranting is prohibited" - Teblin
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Guth
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Posted - 2006.05.18 14:58:00 -
[5]
Its not just you. It's also me.. ;)
Seriously: well written post, which i wholeheartedly agree with. I dont want new carrots. I want the old ones to taste as yummy as the advertised.
Factoid: Something fictitious that is presented as fact, devised especially to gain publicity and accepted because of constant repetition |
ToxicFire
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Posted - 2006.05.18 15:01:00 -
[6]
Well written post, I completely agree i'd also like to point out alot of the new content is always focused at more of the older players, rather than the newer ones, any new content should be really to keep the majority of players hooked rather than the few veterans.
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GouldFish
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Posted - 2006.05.18 15:09:00 -
[7]
The thing is the new content is made by one team that have there own set of tools and specailised systems.
The "fix" team is the programmers who will be working on fix's as well as working on opamisations, as well as the frame works that allows the new fetures.
What you have to remember that just saying there is a bug here -> does not help them find what the bug is where it is or even why it is happening.
Far too often more time is spent finding where the bug is then fixing it, so if you want the bug fixed then try to put some effort in and make a full bug report.
If they team they have is put together right then they can easly do both at the same time.
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2006.05.18 15:09:00 -
[8]
Agreed and nicely put
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Roue
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Posted - 2006.05.18 15:14:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: GouldFish
The thing is the new content is made by one team that have there own set of tools and specailised systems.
The "fix" team is the programmers who will be working on fix's as well as working on opamisations, as well as the frame works that allows the new fetures.
What you have to remember that just saying there is a bug here -> does not help them find what the bug is where it is or even why it is happening.
Far too often more time is spent finding where the bug is then fixing it, so if you want the bug fixed then try to put some effort in and make a full bug report.
If they team they have is put together right then they can easly do both at the same time.
That's like saying you have 4 mason's working for you. 3 of them are working on building something new and 1 is working on repairing some old work and replacing pieces that need to be replaced. You CAN relocate 1 of the masons or 2 of them to help the guy working on the old and broken stuff. Whether or not they have a name tag that says "New Stuff Mason" or "Fixer Mason" is irrelevant.
And alot of the fixes aren't fixes so much as reproduction of not workign features. like Contracts, one of the few Kali features that is a major fix as well as feature. or a new system of travel.
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GouldFish
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Posted - 2006.05.18 15:18:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Roue
That's like saying you have 4 mason's working for you. 3 of them are working on building something new and 1 is working on repairing some old work and replacing pieces that need to be replaced. You CAN relocate 1 of the masons or 2 of them to help the guy working on the old and broken stuff. Whether or not they have a name tag that says "New Stuff Mason" or "Fixer Mason" is irrelevant.
And alot of the fixes aren't fixes so much as reproduction of not workign features. like Contracts, one of the few Kali features that is a major fix as well as feature. or a new system of travel.
Your basing it on the idea that all of them are mason's, where it would be more like 3 mason, a plumer, 3 election and some one to put the carpets in.
They are all working on the same house and all have important jobs but I doubt the mason knows how to wire up the fuse box..
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Jeretomi
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Posted - 2006.05.18 15:36:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Jeretomi on 18/05/2006 15:36:15
Very eloquently put, and sentiments which I agree with whole-heartedly. Working in software development as I do, our company always puts new functionality and feature requests lower in the queue than fixing bugs. However, we do work very hard at the "usability" of existing features which is something different again 
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Dinique
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Posted - 2006.05.18 16:06:00 -
[12]
/signed
So much in this game was done half-way.
So many simple bugs reported and documented, and yet nothing done about.
I mean, how hard can it be for one dev to sit a day or two working through the agent mission briefings fixing the grammar and spelling errors? Most, if not all, all of them have been reported now. Just fix the reported onse atleast!
The Petition system is a travesty. And the people behind this customer support system are happy to just copy/paste standard emails to you without even bothering to read what you wrote.
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Spike Larosse
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Posted - 2006.05.18 16:10:00 -
[13]
/signed
There's no reason to panic, and the devs do a great job.
But fixes to known bugs/misfeatures is one of the thigns I'm starting to miss about EVE.... 
------------------------------------------------
-OCC- |
GouldFish
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Posted - 2006.05.18 16:17:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Dinique
/signed
So much in this game was done half-way.
So many simple bugs reported and documented, and yet nothing done about.
I mean, how hard can it be for one dev to sit a day or two working through the agent mission briefings fixing the grammar and spelling errors? Most, if not all, all of them have been reported now. Just fix the reported onse atleast!
The Petition system is a travesty. And the people behind this customer support system are happy to just copy/paste standard emails to you without even bothering to read what you wrote.
and Grammer and spelling mistakes are that high in the list, thats the thing that gets done if there is nothing else to do or if you get a newbie in and you want him to learn the system.
As for well documented bugs, how do you know they are well documented? and even if they are it does not mean they are easy to trivial to fix.
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w0rmy
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Posted - 2006.05.18 16:36:00 -
[15]
Edited by: w0rmy on 18/05/2006 16:39:04
Originally by: GouldFish
The thing is the new content is made by one team that have there own set of tools and specailised systems.
The "fix" team is the programmers who will be working on fix's as well as working on opamisations, as well as the frame works that allows the new fetures.
So perhaps its time to send the Content team on a holiday...
And hire a second guy for the fix team!
Originally by: GouldFish
Your basing it on the idea that all of them are mason's, where it would be more like 3 mason, a plumer, 3 election and some one to put the carpets in.
They are all working on the same house and all have important jobs but I doubt the mason knows how to wire up the fuse box..
So when youve got more masons than you need, and fewer electricians than you need.
You get rid of a mason or 2 and replace them with electricians.
Of course people whine, its cause your sig sucks
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wystler
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Posted - 2006.05.18 16:42:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Roue
That's like saying you have 4 mason's working for you. 3 of them are working on building something new and 1 is working on repairing some old work and replacing pieces that need to be replaced. You CAN relocate 1 of the masons or 2 of them to help the guy working on the old and broken stuff. Whether or not they have a name tag that says "New Stuff Mason" or "Fixer Mason" is irrelevant.
And alot of the fixes aren't fixes so much as reproduction of not workign features. like Contracts, one of the few Kali features that is a major fix as well as feature. or a new system of travel.
Eve have separate content teams and programming teams.
There is overlap where content requires programming resource.
Eve has its own QA team also, who rigorously test reported bugs, and test the patches that are said to fix them, and make sure they don't break something else.
Oveur's word on content vs fixing
Mephysto on QA / bug hunting 1
Mephysto on QA / bug hunting 2
So CCP can't actually just move people off content onto bug fixing, because content is not created by programmers, although if a change is needed to Eve it may be implemented by them, for example:
A new mission could be added by someone on the content team
If missions didn't exist at all, a programmer would have to create that system for the content team to add them
I hope that information helps 
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w0rmy
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Posted - 2006.05.18 16:46:00 -
[17]
Originally by: wystler
So CCP can't actually just move people off content onto bug fixing, because content is not created by programmers
Yeah they can.
A: Make content staff member a redundant.
B: Hire fix staff members.
Of course people whine, its cause your sig sucks
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Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.05.18 16:48:00 -
[18]
Originally by: w0rmy
Originally by: GouldFish
Your basing it on the idea that all of them are mason's, where it would be more like 3 mason, a plumer, 3 election and some one to put the carpets in.
They are all working on the same house and all have important jobs but I doubt the mason knows how to wire up the fuse box..
So when youve got more masons than you need, and fewer electricians than you need.
You get rid of a mason or 2 and replace them with electricians.
You quickly get diminishing returns though. Twenty extra electricians won't help if the electrics cupboard can only hold three people. It's not a great analogy but the point is that often putting more than x people on a single job will actually slow down the work because they get in each others' way. And there's usually no simple way to make the cupboard bigger.
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w0rmy
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Posted - 2006.05.18 16:53:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
You quickly get diminishing returns though. Twenty extra electricians won't help if the electrics cupboard can only hold three people.
Send 3 to do the lights
Send 3 to handle ho****er cylinder
Send 3 to handle power points
Not all 20 have to be wiring the same socket at the same time.
If your masons are building walls just out of need for something to do, during the wait on the electricians to finish up...
Your returns are already deminished and reevaluation of current staffing is required.
Of course people whine, its cause your sig sucks
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Sim Frost
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Posted - 2006.05.18 16:58:00 -
[20]
Content team and fixing team being seperate can be understood. Then, maybe the issue is that the fixing team is drastically smaller than the content team or there is something else which is wrong.
I don't think anyone is complaining about lots of new content. But so many "content vs. fixing" threads being brought up could possibly point out to a serious issue. I understand separate teams, but I personally don't understand why even seemingly small issues go unfixed for months and I think this is what people are questioning.
.
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Pyrok
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Posted - 2006.05.18 17:01:00 -
[21]
It's been said, but the game is compartmentalized. EVE is made up of hundreds of millions or even billions of lines of code, for comparison, that's about one thousand times longer than tolstoy's War and Peace, at least, possibly longer. The mere thought of having a single person grasping all that is staggering, and so CCP has teams to do it. It's not a matter of masons being able to switch jobs. It's a matter of Masons and Interior Designers, who I think you'd agree are best working their respective tasks
Lowsec Piracy: Because you're tired of veld mining but still too much of a girl to go to the real frontier |
Dakath
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Posted - 2006.05.18 17:19:00 -
[22]
Signed.
Fix > shiney new stuff that doesn't work well.
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Lori Carlyle
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Posted - 2006.05.18 18:10:00 -
[23]
Signed and QFT
Eve would be the "perfect" game for me, but the constant bugs and the lack of fixin them is giving me more time for RF Online.
i'm stayin in hope CCP go, Oh hang on the games bugged to **** and needs fixing before we want to charge people more for VoIP crap.
I just hope they do that soon.
PINK PINK PINK PINK PINK ERISGREEN
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Coran Ordus
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Posted - 2006.05.18 18:37:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Sim Frost
I understand separate teams, but I personally don't understand why even seemingly small issues go unfixed for months and I think this is what people are questioning.
You make a good point. But ... there are reasons for this. I speak from personal experience working on large, professional, people-pay-you-millions-of-dollars-for-this software projects. There are two fundamental problems.
One: QA and balancing. It may seem obvious that some ship has unbalanced-ly low armor. Simple, go in, fiddle the number, we're done. Except if you're making a professional project, you need someone to double-check that. A typo giving a frigate 10x the amount of armor it should have would look and be pretty horrible. So for all these fiddly little changes, someone's got to come along and make sure you did it right, and didn't just change the problem. (Because now it's unbalanced-ly high... meaning it needs to be fixed again, meaning you just wasted your time.)
Two: delivery. Even when it's been fixed and double-checked and known to be okay, you still have to get it to the players. You have to put together a patch and test that. You need to stop things for an extended period to make sure you don't corrupt any accounts. For a tiny, simple fix ... is it worth stopping the world and risking a screw up? Generally, if you're the one who's going to be held responsible, the answer is no. You wait until you've got a pack of fixes, so that the risk-reward equation balances out better.
Now, it may be that CCP has been a little too conservative and really should be releasing little-fix-plus-balance packs more frequently. I wouldn't entirely disagree. But again, it's easy for things to get interconnected. To fix this, you need to edit that bit of code, and that bit of code has been updated to work with the new backend, which isn't public yet and needs a lot more testing...
So. I think I just wanted to explain how these things can happen even to professional, dedicated organizations who have a Plan. (In fact, it's more likely for them. If they were half-assed, they'd toss out patches constantly and everyone would complain that they're constantly breaking things or making hasty decisions.)
Maybe we should be asking for more, smaller patches. But I haven't been around for long enough... did they used to do this, and everyone complained?
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Vaugue
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Posted - 2006.05.18 20:51:00 -
[25]
Agree whole-heartedly. Also a very nice post OP.
I myself am 100% geared toward performance and playability
fix first > content later
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My Space
Eve-Bay
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2006.05.18 22:14:00 -
[26]
Originally by: wystler
...
Then the content team should slow down. Then when they produce new content the bug fixers wont have *more* bugs to fix?
I know the above statement is not factually correct but thats the perception of many.
Drones still cant even land back in my drone bay. Scanning people out in system leaves a lot to be desired. It's a long list of pretty important stuff that has been fubar since the dawn of time.
CCP's attitiude seems to be *look, new ship!* and people stop and say "ooh, shiny!!" and forget about the bugs for a week
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.05.18 22:28:00 -
[27]
... never mind ...
--*=*=*--
Megadon
CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray |
Ling Xiao
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Posted - 2006.05.18 22:35:00 -
[28]
Agree with OP on all counts, and have done since I started playing over a year ago.
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Kitty O'Shay
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Posted - 2006.05.18 22:39:00 -
[29]
Fixes > New stuff that *will* need fixing.
--
Originally by: Mephysto
come on, solo-mining in a 0.4 system? Its wrong NOT to pod you...
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Sakura Nihil
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Posted - 2006.05.18 23:16:00 -
[30]
/signed, qft
damn sig hijack!!11!
Signature removed. Max filesize is 24,000 bytes. -Eldo ([email protected])
Forum warrior in training =P |
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