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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Awox
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Posted - 2006.05.20 11:16:00 -
[1]
Anybody else find it disturbing that to specialize in heavy missiles one does not need to have standard missiles lvl5 but to have medium projectile specialisation one requires small projectile specialisation?
What's the dev's position on this? I'm sure this would annoy people who have already trained small to get medium or both to get large specialisation but for new players it would be a welcome change.
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Niru Carniflex
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Posted - 2006.05.20 11:37:00 -
[2]
I am not a Dev to comment on this, but I have heard arguing that it is bcos missiles and guns are different. As I am myself using missiles mostly to hurt things, then I find it's quite fine that way. Guns do their damage instantly, but have to track while missiles take their time to get there but dont need to track. Those are just different weapon platforms.
Carniflex
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Carniflex
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Posted - 2006.05.20 11:39:00 -
[3]
Sorry about alt thingy. Just created it and forgot to change active char.
Carniflex
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Awox
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Posted - 2006.05.20 11:43:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Niru Carniflex I am not a Dev to comment on this, but I have heard arguing that it is bcos missiles and guns are different. As I am myself using missiles mostly to hurt things, then I find it's quite fine that way. Guns do their damage instantly, but have to track while missiles take their time to get there but dont need to track. Those are just different weapon platforms.
Carniflex
That seems silly.
Because it takes 10 seconds longer for a missile to hit something us turret users have to train 10 weeks longer?
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Carniflex
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Posted - 2006.05.20 11:47:00 -
[5]
You can train that much faster then to missiles and use missiles instead :) -- After all both Caldary and Minmatar ships have in some cases almost half of their high slots missiles and other half turrets. So if missiles would take as much time to train as guns it would be a bit more painful to specialize in those ships. In my personal opinion thigs are just fine at the moment (exept a bit tweaking in T2 ammo area, but thats different story).
Carniflex
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Tar Ecthelion
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Posted - 2006.05.20 11:53:00 -
[6]
The idea that because missiles take time to hit the target means they should be easier to train is ridiculus. Missiles hit for same damage at ALL ranges, and the ability to hit across ALL damage types. True enough for Fleets battels at 100kms missiles are not much cop. For PvP turrets win, for PvE missiles win. ( Not always as Raven at close range is pretty nasty ). I have almost 5x as many skill points in gunnery as missiles, yet I do almost as much, if not more damage using missiles. Its kind of screwed, but I still consider Missiles are nub weapons, give me turrets any day. .....
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Awox
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Posted - 2006.05.20 13:30:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Carniflex You can train that much faster then to missiles and use missiles instead :) -- After all both Caldary and Minmatar ships have in some cases almost half of their high slots missiles and other half turrets. So if missiles would take as much time to train as guns it would be a bit more painful to specialize in those ships. In my personal opinion thigs are just fine at the moment (exept a bit tweaking in T2 ammo area, but thats different story).
Carniflex
Sure, but Minmatar don't get any bonuses to missiles on t1 ships!
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Huppellord Gothic
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Posted - 2006.05.20 14:17:00 -
[8]
The max damage of turrets, with full skills, is a lot higher than the damage of missiles, with full skills.
I fly a raven with maxed torp skills, and i am vastly outdamaged by any turretship. (when not using rage torpedoes with tp's, which leaves no room at all for something else)
Both weapon systems both have their advantages and disadvantages, their pretty balanced.
I believe why missile users have to learn less skills is because t2 missile launchers where introduced later then the t2 guns. So requiring the missile users to learn all the skills would set them back to much.
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Gorgons
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Posted - 2006.05.20 14:25:00 -
[9]
If you want to make a difference with your missiles you have to train all the extra skills anyway, and by doing so you end up with the same amount of skillpoints as a specialized t2 turret user.
You won't be a "specialized" missile user just by being able to use t2 launchers ----------------------------------
OMG! what does it say... |
Hohenheim OfLight
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Posted - 2006.05.20 14:37:00 -
[10]
haveing to go all the way thoght small and med to get to alrge is a bit of a pain. ----------------------------------------------
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Tervaga
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Posted - 2006.05.20 15:37:00 -
[11]
Well, there are a few things which probably make the extra required training make sense: 1) There are a lower percentage of ships in the game which use missiles as a primary weapon than turrets. On the other ships, missiles can be used as a secondary weapon alot of the time, so making them take as long to train as turrets might not necessarily be beneficial to everybody. 2) There are three groups of turrets (hybrids, lasers, projectiles), and only one for missiles (obviously, missiles). The support skills you train for one group apply to the others, taking a little bit of pressure off from having to train three sets of support skills. 3) The support skills are lower ranked for turrets than missiles. If the requirements of lower weapon class spec. wasn't necessary, it'd probably be quicker to train all the missile skills up than it would be to train all the missile skills (including support skills) three times over. 4) RP-wise, turrets should (maybe, I'm guessing here) require more skill to use than missiles do. And to be honest, they do require more skill to use effectively than missiles to in alot of cases. 5) The training of close range spec. and long range spec. is kind of akin to the training of the higher damaging, closer range missiles (rockets, torps) vs longer range, lower damaging (std's, cruise), so nothing's too out of whack there. (when assault missiles are introduced, cruiser sized weapons will be somewhat balanced in this respect too, before you start complaining about them/heavies )
And there may be other reasons, but you get the idea. I agree, its a kick in the nuts when you realise how many skills you need to go through, but there are a fair few advantages to using turrets over missiles. |
Kamikaaazi
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Posted - 2006.05.20 15:39:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Kamikaaazi on 20/05/2006 15:39:20
Originally by: Awox Anybody else find it disturbing that to specialize in heavy missiles one does not need to have standard missiles lvl5 but to have medium projectile specialisation one requires small projectile specialisation?
What's the dev's position on this? I'm sure this would annoy people who have already trained small to get medium or both to get large specialisation but for new players it would be a welcome change.
stfu noob
When i started i had to train standard missiles 5 cos crows used to rule with those. Then CCP changed everything and i had to train rockets 5. Few months later i started flying cerberus and again i had to train for heavy missiles 5. Now im flying a raven and guess what, i trained cruise missiles lvl5. Currently im working on torpedoes lvl5. Allso i got 6m in gunnery and im gonna train L hybrid 5 as soon as i get my torp skills done. Now add all missile support skills and do the math. OMGOMG MISSILES ARE TRUELY AMAZINGLY EASY TO TRAIN.
oh i totally forgot, missile support skills came out allmost an year later than turret support skills.
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Kelgen Thann
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Posted - 2006.05.23 03:08:00 -
[13]
Quote: Missiles hit for same damage at ALL ranges, and the ability to hit across ALL damage types.
I kitted a mega to hit frigs for 400 damage on perfects using T1 425mms. Try that with Cruise missles of the T1 variety... Impossible. there are no remote moduels to increase explosion velocity, no remote mods to affect a missle at all except Painters, no mods that help missles hit targets at all except for painters. The delay is an insane disadvantage in PvP the only missles that avoid this problem are rockets and lights as you are close to begin with. Even then if a guy warps out your last 1-2 volleys will miss while his hits.
I use Turrets and Missles. Unless you have a tackler with you missles are the crap in PvP. I use turrets. PvE Missles are my fav.
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Arleonenis
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Posted - 2006.05.25 21:04:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kelgen Thann
Quote: there are no remote moduels to increase explosion velocity
Hmmm did you even saw something called a weber? Why to increase missle explosion speed if you can decrease speed of the target?
And as far as i know theres no precision ammo for guns...
The only real option for gunships to kill frigates at close range are drones or gimping you damage to oblivion by mounting small guns... and guess what: raven have drone bay too... so why not decrease size of drone bay to 0 on all caldari ships? Or remove T2 precision missles from game
And yes i fly all races ships and raven is so good that its boring thats why i dont use it for now
Balance in EVE |
IamBen
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Posted - 2006.05.25 22:34:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Tar Ecthelion The idea that because missiles take time to hit the target means they should be easier to train is ridiculus. Missiles hit for same damage at ALL ranges, and the ability to hit across ALL damage types. True enough for Fleets battels at 100kms missiles are not much cop. For PvP turrets win, for PvE missiles win. ( Not always as Raven at close range is pretty nasty ). I have almost 5x as many skill points in gunnery as missiles, yet I do almost as much, if not more damage using missiles. Its kind of screwed, but I still consider Missiles are nub weapons, give me turrets any day.
I find it kind of screwy that a tempest can do full damage with 1400 II's at 5k to another battleship instantly and also do full damage at 120K instantly. With good skills 1400's are super devestating at point blank and at long distance. If anything is a super weapon in this game its that, not missles.
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Aeaus
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Posted - 2006.05.25 22:52:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Kamikaaazi Edited by: Kamikaaazi on 20/05/2006 15:39:20
OMGOMG MISSILES ARE TRUELY AMAZINGLY EASY TO TRAIN.
It is easier to train for T2 Missile Launchers then T2 Guns, other then that however I believe missiles have one more support skill then Turets.
My Guides (Recomended Reading) |
Rodge
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Posted - 2006.05.26 09:23:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Kamikaaazi stfu noob
The sign of an intellectual posting.
Originally by: Kamikaaazi
When i started i had to train standard missiles 5 cos crows used to rule with those. Then CCP changed everything and i had to train rockets 5. Few months later i started flying cerberus and again i had to train for heavy missiles 5. Now im flying a raven and guess what, i trained cruise missiles lvl5. Currently im working on torpedoes lvl5. Allso i got 6m in gunnery and im gonna train L hybrid 5 as soon as i get my torp skills done. Now add all missile support skills and do the math. OMGOMG MISSILES ARE TRUELY AMAZINGLY EASY TO TRAIN.
oh i totally forgot, missile support skills came out allmost an year later than turret support skills.
Not understanding what the complaint is 4TW!!!
I'll spell it out for you.
Character 1 wants to use T2 large hybrids. He has no interest in ever using small or medium T2 hybrids, but he must train them all to level 5 and train the T2 sized skills to L4 before he can even begin training the T2 large hybrid skills.
Character 2 wants to use T2 torpedos. He has no interest in ever using rockets/standard missiles/heavy missiles. He does not have to train the specialisation skills in these smaller weapons to get to his weapon of choice.
[ 2005.04.17 00:34:30 ] Nagilam > u better leave Rodge, u will not gank any1 else 2nite......
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Mjala
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Posted - 2006.05.26 10:12:00 -
[18]
i dont play this game for 3 years, but doesnt was missiles a secondary weapon system ??
when you look all the ships, a lot of them have missiles hardpoints, that any person dont use them is something else. a true caldari/missiles char would learn all the skills at lvl5 and they have enough skills and come to the same skillpoints.
you are a minmatar, be happy that you dont mu¯t learn a complete second weapon system. with something like 1,5/2mill you can say that you have good missiles skills.
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000Hunter000
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Posted - 2006.05.26 12:37:00 -
[19]
i have atm over 4 mill in missile skills cuz i think it is silly to limit myself to 1 type of missile only but i wasn't forced into those thats true.
So yeah, perhaps ccp should make the other missile spec skills prereq just like with guns, hell i don't care, i have them allready anyways
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hawkeiz
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Posted - 2006.05.26 16:39:00 -
[20]
it seems to be that while the guns themselves require more training, the ammo doesnt. With missiles, the launchers are easy to train for, but the missiles themselves are not. So it seems somewhat balanced in total training time...
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VaderDSL
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Posted - 2006.05.26 19:27:00 -
[21]
In my own humble opinion, Missiles are support weapons, like drones.
Drones and Missiles are easier to specialise in than primary weapons like Railguns, Lasers and Projectiles.
That's my case anyhow
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Kilo Paskaa
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Posted - 2006.05.26 19:35:00 -
[22]
Originally by: VaderDSL In my own humble opinion, Missiles are support weapons, like drones.
Drones and Missiles are easier to specialise in than primary weapons like Railguns, Lasers and Projectiles.
That's my case anyhow
Caldari IS support race. --------
As you can see, i pwned Kieron for iskies. |
Phelan Boots
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Posted - 2006.05.26 22:42:00 -
[23]
What about shield tanking vs armor tanking? It seems to me that armor tanking requires six skills to lvl 5 for a perfect armor tank. On the other hand a shield tanker has to train eight skills to lvl 5 to get a perfect shield tank. So while Caldari have less missle skills to train they have more tanking skills. I would say it is pretty well balanced if you look at it from the standpoint of perfecting a ship.
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Draco Amaris
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Posted - 2006.05.27 09:46:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Draco Amaris on 27/05/2006 09:49:37 Edited by: Draco Amaris on 27/05/2006 09:47:17 Another whining thread...
well, have a good use to missiles you also have to train the support skills named:
Guided Missile Precision (needs Missile Launcher V Missile Bombardment Missile Projection Rapid Launch Warhead Upgrades
If you want T2 Launcher you also have to train heavy missiles to lvl V and then heavy missile specialication
You should get them at least to lvl 4
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Delezar
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Posted - 2006.05.28 10:00:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Draco Amaris Edited by: Draco Amaris on 27/05/2006 09:49:37 Edited by: Draco Amaris on 27/05/2006 09:47:17 Another whining thread...
well, have a good use to missiles you also have to train the support skills named:
Guided Missile Precision (needs Missile Launcher V Missile Bombardment Missile Projection Rapid Launch Warhead Upgrades
If you want T2 Launcher you also have to train heavy missiles to lvl V and then heavy missile specialication
You should get them at least to lvl 4
Where is your point?
For turrets to become useful you have to train: Controlled Bursts (unless projectile) Motion Prediction Rapid Firing Sharpshooter Surgical Strike Trajectory Analysis Weapon Upgrades (which you have forgotten in your list btw)
Not to mention that you will need Sharpshooter 5 for Large Artillery Spec and Motion Prediction 5 for Large Autocannon Spec, lower levels for small or medium specs.
Lets see,
Tech II Heavy Missiles:
Heavy Missiles 5 Missile Launcher 5 Missile Bombardment 4 Missile Projection 4 Rapid Launch 4 Warhead Upgrades 4 Guided Missile Precision 4 Weapon Upgrades 4 Heavy Missile Spec 1
Tech 2 Medium Projectiles:
Small Projectiles 5 Medium Projectiles 5 Gunnery 4 Motion Prediction 4 Rapid Firing 4 Sharpshooter 4 Surgical Strike 4 Trajectory Analysis 4 Small Autocannon Spec 4 Small Artillery Spec 4 Medium Autocannon Spec 1 Medium Artillery Spec 1
This is already two skills more to train to level 4 (Three skills if you train Controlled Bursts, which is highly recommended for all other turrets.)and three more skills overall. If you look at large specs the difference becomes even greater.
So there is a great imbalance between training for tech II turrets and tech II missile launchers. Sure it is easy to just say "Another whining thread..." when you do not have any valid arguments. |
Kamikaaazi
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Posted - 2006.05.28 11:59:00 -
[26]
Delezar, i guess you are the kind of guy who likes to brag around telling everyone that you can fly all BS-s, but leaving out that you cant fit any guns? So basically you are trying to tell us that when training for guns you would only train L GUN 5 and wouldnt care to train anything else? BTW, read my earlier post. I explain there quite nicely everything to noobs like you.
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.05.29 05:22:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Delezar ...
You get to instantly kill your enemies. Missiles user have to wait and pray they get to kill their enemies. Comparing apples and oranges. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
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Apertotes
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Posted - 2006.05.29 16:18:00 -
[28]
true, if you are training for large artillery spec, you need a lot of skills. not only support skills like sharpshooter or motion prediction, but also small projectiles 5, and small artillery spec 4, and medium projectiles 5, and medium artillery spec 4. on the other hand, to train for tech 2 cruise launchers, you only need the support skills and then cruise launcher to level 5, you dont need to train for heavy missile spec or even standar missile spec.
yes, but, on the other hand, once you have trained all the gunnery support skills, you can opt to three different skill trees (hybrids, energy weapons, and projectiles), meanwhile with missiles, you gotta train all the support skills and then you can only use missiles. if you want to use any other weapon, you got nothing useful already trained. same with drones.
Apertotes, the Guybrush Threepwood of New Eve |
Slaadi
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Posted - 2006.05.29 17:07:00 -
[29]
Originally by: VaderDSL In my own humble opinion, Missiles are support weapons, like drones.
Drones and Missiles are easier to specialise in than primary weapons like Railguns, Lasers and Projectiles.
That's my case anyhow
What now?
Lessee... to get all four damage types with heavy drones in the T2 variety I needed:
Drones 5 Heavy Drones 5 Caldari Drone Spec 4 Amarr Drone Spec 4 Minmatar Drone Spec 4 Gallente Drone spec 4
The last 4 cost only what, 15-20 million each for the books? Maybe 10 each? I forget
And of course like turrets or launchers they will be severely gimped without the relevant support skills to back them up, so really need Interfacing 4, Drone Sharpshooting 4, Combat drone operation 4, Scout drone operation 4 or they'll be terrible range and not exactly stellar damage.
Yeah you could use 5 T2 lights with just Drones 5 and the relevant race spec book, but I can also use a T2 laser with just small energy 5 and what, motion prediction 3 or something? They both need a bunch of other skills and drones get no gear to up their damage, just range and tracking, the latter needing gunnery 5 to equip. Throw in drones refusing to redock or flying off to attack some random piece of floating debris that looked at them funny, or getting 500k drones blown up because they forget they have MWD's and return to bay at the speed of a BS and... well... all three damage dealing methods have their drawbacks, I wouldn't say any are any easier than another, just different.
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F'nog
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Posted - 2006.05.30 04:02:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Gorgons If you want to make a difference with your missiles you have to train all the extra skills anyway, and by doing so you end up with the same amount of skillpoints as a specialized t2 turret user.
You won't be a "specialized" missile user just by being able to use t2 launchers
You also need all the support skills trained up for gunnery. In fact, you need at least one at V in order to use T2 large guns. So that pretty much nullifies your point.
Both groups need to train their support skills if they want to be effective. This is a good thing.
As a turret user, I'm not happy with the fact that I can get T2 torps just by training one skill versus all the ones I had to train to use large T2 guns. But at this point I don't think anything will change by complaining, so I'll live with it the way it is.
Originally by: Avon Iceland, where even their singers are in to PvP.
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