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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 45 post(s) |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1509
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:59:00 -
[301] - Quote
Loraine Gess wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: LOL...like you needed any of these changes to outcompete.
You have been gifted the perfect platform , where you will have the greatest cost certainty of any group in the game, because you can strictly control access to all industry facilities in any station under your control. You will also be able to command the services of any team you want, or simply withhold the services from someone else, because of your infinite supply of ISK. The only variable costs you will encounter will be raw material costs and the team costs. All other slot costs you will very quickly be able to lock down.
High sec, naturally, won't have that option. And low sec, well, industry is finished there. I can just see it now, some low sec indy group bidding for a team, broadcasting the system they are operating in, and what they are building or researching.
WTB enough isk to hire all 4000 teams in the game, forever. Of course the goons could do it - for a month. I could probably do it for a month too, if I cared enough to blow my fortune on annoying someone as neurotic as you. Sadly I do not have any free character slots to add goon-sounding characters to, so I am unable to make you froth at the mouth (any more than you usually do).
It doesn't have to be all 4000, or even 100. But I like the sound of forever. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7185
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:00:00 -
[302] - Quote
for this game you pay $5 to enter, and get $10 if the random number we pick between 1 and 10 is lower than eight and nothing if it's eight, nine or ten
"we don't know what the number will be, we can't decide if we should play!!!!!" - the average highsec industrialist Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Makari Aeron
The Shadow's Of Eve TSOE Consortium
89
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:00:00 -
[303] - Quote
Not going to lie, this was somewhat of a disappointment. I was expecting Teams finally allowing for multiple characters working on the same project to complete the job faster. This is....meh. CCP RedDawn: Ugly people are just playing life on HARD mode. Personally, I'm playing on an INFERNO difficulty...
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350125GO
Transcendent Sedition Dustm3n
37
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:03:00 -
[304] - Quote
The team idea seems to encourage industrialists settling in the same system while the scaled manufacturing costs is supposed to discourage the hubs. This doesn't make sense, unless all you want is people to put up POS to do all industry. This change is very bad for the small industrialist/small corps, and especially bad for new players that may be interested in industry. |
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
302
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:03:00 -
[305] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Riela Tanal wrote:So why are the teams NPCs instead of composed of players? Seems more like focusing more on solo work then a combined effort for industrial operations. I was envisioning more of the team aspect function in industry but I suppose I can wait and see. Cooperative gameplay in industry requires complete rewrite of the corp role system. Hopefully that will happen soon (you didn't read this here). Holy cow. This almost (*almost*) makes up for the complete shafting POS owners seem to be getting in the S&I blogs.
MDD |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
599
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:04:00 -
[306] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:for this game you pay $5 to enter, and get $10 if the random number we pick between 1 and 10 is lower than eight and nothing if it's eight, nine or ten
"we don't know what the number will be, we can't decide if we should play!!!!!" - the average highsec industrialist
Are you running a business or playing in a casino? You don't do industry do you. I think you're just on here to troll. |
mkint
1170
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:04:00 -
[307] - Quote
Green Gambit wrote:
Erm doesn't the real-world work somewhat like that? Tech companies setup in silicon valley because there's a readily available labour market there - even though the costs can be higher.
No manufacturing company in the world will be able to tell you exactly what their labour costs will be at the end of the year - there are too many variables that can change things. What you do is budget what you expect these things to be, and ensure that you're making enough profits to cover the variabilities in your costs.
Again, a large problem in Eve currently is that because everything can be perfectly calculated in advance, everybody is willing to work on tiny profit margins. I'm looking forward to being able to take on these new risks, and make more profits at the end of the day.
Hmm... That's an interesting point... Will all the cost uncertainty drive more players OUT of industry? All those people willing to work for exceptionally narrow margins will be more likely to be wiped out of the market. They'll stop depressing the market, driving up margins for everyone else. Definitely puts up a barrier of entry on manufacturing... beyond the skills and the months of ME researched for a stable of usable BPOs. Maxim 34: If you're leaving scorch-marks, you need a bigger gun. |
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
302
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:04:00 -
[308] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Is it public knowledge which teams are working in which systems? Yes, they are all in my wormhole. Wait, are we still talking about Eve?
MDD |
Seith Kali
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
8
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:05:00 -
[309] - Quote
350125GO wrote:The team idea seems to encourage industrialists settling in the same system while the scaled manufacturing costs is supposed to discourage the hubs. This doesn't make sense, unless all you want is people to put up POS to do all industry. This change is very bad for the small industrialist/small corps, and especially bad for new players that may be interested in industry.
No it isn't - highsec hubs are going to have loads of these available. Focused efforts will enable advantages in select areas of the market. It is a great addition to gameplay. |
Green Gambit
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
54
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:06:00 -
[310] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:The buy price of materials and the sale price of goods fluctuates. The kind of certainties I want as a builder involves me fixing the price at the point at which I buy the materials, so I know when to sell and how much profit I've made when I do so. I can't fix the price if my production costs are going to fluctuate unpredictably between my buying the materials and my completing the job.
And so we have another - "press button, receive bacon" player.
Taking your analysis of how it works now - you can't be sure that your expected sale price is still profitable after the production run has ended, so what difference does the additional uncertainty of the manufacturing costs make?
And your British Leyland anecdote is very interesting, but you will know exactly what the build cost is - in advance - it's going to be there on screen when you click the button that says submit job. |
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Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
599
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:06:00 -
[311] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote:Riela Tanal wrote:So why are the teams NPCs instead of composed of players? Seems more like focusing more on solo work then a combined effort for industrial operations. I was envisioning more of the team aspect function in industry but I suppose I can wait and see. Cooperative gameplay in industry requires complete rewrite of the corp role system. Hopefully that will happen soon (you didn't read this here). Holy cow. This almost (*almost*) makes up for the complete shafting POS owners seem to be getting in the S&I blogs. MDD
They didn't say they were doing it. It was just a "hope". On past performance you'd be justified in assuming it isn't going to happen.
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Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
1114
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:06:00 -
[312] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:But if Chrysler moves into town, you WILL have to compete with them for labor, materials, maintenance, supplies... and that means increased costs.
That's not a given. Most auto companies use the same contract suppliers for parts, and the more auto companies use the same contractor, the more the supplier can benefit from economies of scale, the more able they are to pass those savings on to the auto companies--especially if they're under competitive pressure.
But that only reinforces the general point that there are too many variables in RL industry to achieve anything like the predictability that only MMO crafting has. If anything, it would have to become significantly more complicated to achieve anything resembling RL industry.
Just to come back to the example of automotive contract suppliers, as I worked for one for a spell: they manufacture what they're asked to, with the materials they're asked to use, to the tolerances they're told to use, and they run the QA tests they're told to run. So it's absolutely possible for a shoddy manufacturer to get cheap, poor-quality parts from the same plant, the same assembly lines and the same workers that a quality manufacturer gets their premium, high-quality parts from, because they exist to give people what they ask for--and more precisely, what they pay for. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7186
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:06:00 -
[313] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:Weaselior wrote:for this game you pay $5 to enter, and get $10 if the random number we pick between 1 and 10 is lower than eight and nothing if it's eight, nine or ten
"we don't know what the number will be, we can't decide if we should play!!!!!" - the average highsec industrialist Are you running a business or playing in a casino? You don't do industry do you. I think you're just on here to troll. i'm running a business that sees that this activity has a positive expected value, and shoves money through it and other things with positive expected value
though some may be busts, overall I make money because i am able to understand things like expected value and tell the difference between gambling and wise but risky investment
and because you've fled the market the EV only goes up Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Althalus Stenory
Flying Blacksmiths
12
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:07:00 -
[314] - Quote
well... devblog tl;dr; decryptors for all industry jobs \o/ but designed as team, and not the same bonuses ^^ The idea is not bad, but we'll see if it's really usefull.. (and used) |
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
245
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:08:00 -
[315] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:Loraine Gess wrote: 7.5% cost savings on an entire month's production, with as many characters as I can shove into it
You are a fool, a goddamned fool, if you cannot see how amazing that would be.
So with your huge balls winning on the labour auctions all the time your system is going to be very popular for building isn't it. So subtract from your 7.5% bonus the increased cost of production for your slots, the increased cost of your office (if you need one) and the costs of actually winning the auction. Now tell me what your actual costs are. You can't can you. You know it's > 0 and you pray it's less than the 7.5% bonus you're getting from having the team. Otherwise you have no idea.
1) Max labor cost has been calculated and is insignificant compared to savings
2) There are 4000 teams, I can afford to win a handful of even the lesser teams and still break your bank
-Without going anywhere near my absolute margin/liquid limit I can afford to throw a few billion isk at a single team.
-Every team has a positive use bonus, all are going to be more cost-effective than not having a team.
-Even if I can't bid 1T to win a team... I can just leech off the guy who does. Moving is not that hard.
3) lol office cost. Even 4-4 would be insignificant compared to cost savings.
I'm not even getting into the fact that build costs are based on a 28-day moving average, meaning the build costs can be negligible (new, fresh system) for a week, or really however long I want them to be. Because I can afford to put a 30d build of the most expensive BPOs on every slot my characters have. |
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
245
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:09:00 -
[316] - Quote
Aryth wrote: It doesn't have to be all 4000, or even 100. But I like the sound of forever.
Shall we start carving up our new spheres of influence, comraderen? |
Green Gambit
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
54
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:09:00 -
[317] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:It's like physics: If you don't know what your measurement error is, you haven't made a measurement. If you don't know what risk you're taking, you haven't taken a risk, you've just played roulette.
Erm last time I checked, physics meaurements come with a degree of confidence over the measurement.
And certainly I will be able to predict my labour costs within a certain degree of confidence.
So yes, looks like the new industry system will be physics, and not gambling... |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7186
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:09:00 -
[318] - Quote
Loraine Gess wrote: I'm not even getting into the fact that build costs are based on a 28-day moving average, meaning the build costs can be negligible (new, fresh system) for a week, or really however long I want them to be. Because I can afford to put a 30d build of the most expensive BPOs on every slot my characters have.
wrong move: put in a 27d one, so you can then shove in a second 30d one and get double bonus off the team Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
599
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:11:00 -
[319] - Quote
Green Gambit wrote: Taking your analysis of how it works now - you can't be sure that your expected sale price is still profitable after the production run has ended, so what difference does the additional uncertainty of the manufacturing costs make?
No of course I can't. But I can choose to do the run knowing from the history of the product what the expected fluctuation is. That is to say, if my margin is 25% and looking at the history of the thing I'm building it's rarely fluctuated more than 10%, it's worth building. Otherwise it might not be. Regardless it's a judgement I make. No bacon involved.
Green Gambit wrote: And your British Leyland anecdote is very interesting, but you will know exactly what the build cost is - in advance - it's going to be there on screen when you click the button that says submit job.
By the time I've got to that stage I may have already spent 2 or more weeks copying and inventing, maybe longer. I've committed to building whatever it is I'm going to build. I might even have bought the required materials. Then, right at the last moment when I'm set to build, only then do I get to know my additional costs? No thanks.
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Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
599
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:13:00 -
[320] - Quote
Green Gambit wrote: Erm last time I checked, physics meaurements come with a degree of confidence over the measurement.
The only way you can give a confidence interval is if you know how accurate your measurement is. If you don't know how accurate it is, you haven't made a measurement and you certainly can't come up with a confidence interval. Same with this new industry system.
It's BS from start to finish. As I said before, I'm out. Somebody else can do all the work for meagre gains (compared to doing almost anything else in Eve). It was an interesting hobby for a while.
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Green Gambit
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
54
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:14:00 -
[321] - Quote
mkint wrote:Hmm... That's an interesting point... Will all the cost uncertainty drive more players OUT of industry? All those people willing to work for exceptionally narrow margins will be more likely to be wiped out of the market. They'll stop depressing the market, driving up margins for everyone else. Definitely puts up a barrier of entry on manufacturing... beyond the skills and the months of ME researched for a stable of usable BPOs.
Yeah, I think one of the worst things CCP can actually do is provide current values of all the variables via an API - all that will happen is that re-worked tools will keep the "press button, receive bacon" nature that Eve industry has currently turned into.
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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1509
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:14:00 -
[322] - Quote
Loraine Gess wrote:Aryth wrote: It doesn't have to be all 4000, or even 100. But I like the sound of forever.
Shall we start carving up our new spheres of influence, comraderen?
Oh we have been for a few days now since the very first blog on refines. We refined it a bit as more blogs came but the general baseline areas haven't changed. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
246
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:14:00 -
[323] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Loraine Gess wrote: I'm not even getting into the fact that build costs are based on a 28-day moving average, meaning the build costs can be negligible (new, fresh system) for a week, or really however long I want them to be. Because I can afford to put a 30d build of the most expensive BPOs on every slot my characters have.
wrong move: put in a 27d one, so you can then shove in a second 30d one and get double bonus off the team
But my labor costs! The uncertainty, egads.... |
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
246
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:17:00 -
[324] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Loraine Gess wrote:Aryth wrote: It doesn't have to be all 4000, or even 100. But I like the sound of forever.
Shall we start carving up our new spheres of influence, comraderen? Oh we have been for a few days now since the very first blog on refines. We refined it a bit as more blogs came but the general baseline areas haven't changed.
When do I get my invite to the Mynnna club? |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
600
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:17:00 -
[325] - Quote
Loraine Gess wrote: -Without going anywhere near my absolute margin/liquid limit I can afford to throw a few billion isk at a single team.
I'm not sure what your building that you'll be able to throw a few billion isk at a team per month and still make a profit with that pathetic 7.5% bonus. I mean you must literally be shipping a few hundred billion of stock a month. I don't know what you're building. I assume it's a huge pile of BS. BS sells well in Jita. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1509
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:18:00 -
[326] - Quote
Loraine Gess wrote:Aryth wrote:Loraine Gess wrote:Aryth wrote: It doesn't have to be all 4000, or even 100. But I like the sound of forever.
Shall we start carving up our new spheres of influence, comraderen? Oh we have been for a few days now since the very first blog on refines. We refined it a bit as more blogs came but the general baseline areas haven't changed. When do I get my invite to the Mynnna club?
Too bad. You already failed not realizing its the Aryth club. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Kadl
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
160
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:18:00 -
[327] - Quote
This sounds like quite an interesting system. With the right tweaks, you may be able to create some real economic geography with some specialized systems. My biggest fear is that you will get some parameter off and the economic systems will be dominated by one specific parameter.
My second fear concerns auction timing both sniping and the ending hour. You have already mentioned concern about last minute bids. Auctions ending at the wrong time (working hours, sleeping hours) are also an issue. Changing the auction system can reduce these issues. Proxy bidding would allow people to bid their maximum without trying to snipe for just the right price. Sealed actions do not show the amount encouraging people to bid their valuation as opposed to just looking at other people's bids. Sealing (hiding) the price but showing the results should work just fine. Everyone can see who is contending, but does not know how to one isk anyone. Since they don't one isk anyone sniping becomes more difficult and less relevant. A Vickrey auction (sealed-bid second-price auction) hides the bids and forces you to pay the second highest price. Taking the second highest price lets you bid the highest you are willing to go knowing that if you win you get the discount. If you lose then your competitor must pay the highest you were ever willing to pay (avoids complicated proxy bidding).
I am suggesting that varying your auction type in design you may be able to remove some other complicated systems and coding.
Finally, I am completely in favor of mooching. If you don't like the moochers, war dec them or move to null and just kill them. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7186
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:20:00 -
[328] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Loraine Gess wrote:Aryth wrote:Loraine Gess wrote:Aryth wrote: It doesn't have to be all 4000, or even 100. But I like the sound of forever.
Shall we start carving up our new spheres of influence, comraderen? Oh we have been for a few days now since the very first blog on refines. We refined it a bit as more blogs came but the general baseline areas haven't changed. When do I get my invite to the Mynnna club? Too bad. You already failed not realizing its the Aryth club. its the weaselior club :mad: Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
246
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:20:00 -
[329] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:Loraine Gess wrote: -Without going anywhere near my absolute margin/liquid limit I can afford to throw a few billion isk at a single team.
I'm not sure what your building that you'll be able to throw a few billion isk at a team per month and still make a profit with that pathetic 7.5% bonus. I mean you must literally be shipping a few hundred billion of stock a month. I don't know what you're building. I assume it's a huge pile of BS. BS sells well in Jita.
Please. Ships are for peasants. But stock turnover exceeding 100b/month is entirely possible (and quite desirable) for a single character. I have multiple characters.
So yes, 7.5% cost savings (slightly more than that in margin gain, due to being a regressive variable) can easily be supported with billions per month. |
Green Gambit
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
54
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Posted - 2014.04.30 16:21:00 -
[330] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote: No of course I can't. But I can choose to do the run knowing from the history of the product what the expected fluctuation is. That is to say, if my margin is 25% and looking at the history of the thing I'm building it's rarely fluctuated more than 10%, it's worth building. Otherwise it might not be. Regardless it's a judgement I make. No bacon involved.
So how does that differ from having a rough expectation of what your build costs are going to be? Because realistically the fluctuations I'm seeing in the system are smaller than the 10% you're already expecting in the market price anyway?
Victoria Sin wrote: By the time I've got to that stage I may have already spent 2 or more weeks copying and inventing, maybe longer. I've committed to building whatever it is I'm going to build. I might even have bought the required materials. Then, right at the last moment when I'm set to build, only then do I get to know my additional costs? No thanks.
So buy the BPCs and materials on the market (well contract for now) and get the manufacturing in now then.
Creating T2 BPCs is a separate process from manufacturing T2 items.
I mean I presume you're not of the opinion that minerals you mine are free are you? In which case you wouldn't spend 3 weeks mining minerals to manufacture T1 ships? So why consider invention as part of the process of T2 manufacturing?
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