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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 45 post(s) |
Seith Kali
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
17
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Posted - 2014.05.02 15:06:00 -
[631] - Quote
This is so, so much better than what I was looking for... Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege.-á |
Laendra
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
40
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Posted - 2014.05.02 15:10:00 -
[632] - Quote
Seith Kali wrote:This is so, so much better than what I was looking for...
To each their own.
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Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
19
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Posted - 2014.05.02 15:14:00 -
[633] - Quote
Seith Kali wrote:This is so, so much better than what I was looking for...
I presume you were looking for nothing? Thus something was better? lol |
Seith Kali
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
17
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Posted - 2014.05.02 15:20:00 -
[634] - Quote
I had been racking my brains for how industry could become collaborative in some form or other. Couldn't come up with anything non-superficial that couldn't be just 'me an ma alts'.
This is it, bravo CCP. Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege.-á |
Cultural Enrichment
Jenkem Puffing Association
35
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Posted - 2014.05.02 15:48:00 -
[635] - Quote
I still dont get why so many people dont understand how heavily this change will skew the things for a group of coordinated players (or, as I like to call them, t e a m s ) against the autistic solo players.
If that's not what you were looking for, what is? |
Laendra
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
41
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Posted - 2014.05.02 16:05:00 -
[636] - Quote
Cultural Enrichment wrote:I still dont get why so many people dont understand how heavily this change will skew the things for a group of coordinated players (or, as I like to call them, t e a m s ) against the autistic solo players.
If that's not what you were looking for, what is?
Once again we are dependent upon NPCs to play a significant role in what we do, instead of being the agents of change ourselves.
Can you imagine Burn Jita run by NPCs? Can you imagine miniluv run by NPCs? Can you imagine Ice Interdiction run by NPCs?
Yes, a group of coordinated players can be more ISK effective now....some (including me and my army of alts) are going to get extremely rich off of this, but that's not really the Players being the star...the NPCs are.
Yes, we will get to make more strategic decisions than we did before...that's great if that is what you enjoy (and a lot of people do enjoy that, as some of my more well known colleagues allude to).
But it is still, in its basic form, just another solo activity...no other player involvement is required to be a good industrialist. I can take a single alt, and produce a ton of product and make a lot of ISK from it, competitively. I get no added benefit (that I can't get from just playing the market, or striking deals for materials suppliers) from coordinating multiple players in the production of a single item....except through the use of NPCs, which I truly despise the thought of.
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Nyjil Lizaru
Aideron Robotics
26
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Posted - 2014.05.02 16:26:00 -
[637] - Quote
Cultural Enrichment wrote:I still dont get why so many people dont understand how heavily this change will skew the things for a group of coordinated players (or, as I like to call them, t e a m s ) against the autistic solo players.
If that's not what you were looking for, what is?
I am one of those solo players (though of course I will argue the autistic part) and I do see that coordinated groups will make much more isk than I - but they will have to actually 'coordinate'. So I'm starting to think that this is actually a pretty good way to encourage group play. People who do 'a bit' of industry to fund the other stuff that they prefer doing (such as myself) will not reap the highest rewards, and I think that's actually good - let those who focus on industry as their main playstyle get more out of it.
I still think that the whole thing is a big step backwards in terms of accessibility to new players, but we'll see how cumbersome the system is when it's rolled out - I might retract my sig. Nyjil's corollary to Malcanis' Law: -á "Any attempt by CCP to smooth the learning curve of EVE Online will be carried out via the addition of extra factors and 'features' such that there is a net increase in complexity." |
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
257
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Posted - 2014.05.02 16:57:00 -
[638] - Quote
Laendra wrote:Loraine Gess wrote:Marsan wrote:Loraine Gess wrote:Marsan wrote:
Seriously just let us launch POSes for self in addition to corp, because no one in their right mind shares a mfg or research POS with anyone other than their alts. What EVE Industry needs is a robust security framework for an Industrial player to want to be in a corp.
>Launch for self >Invulnverable 50m EHP highsec POS No Why would that have to be true. Just don't let people in NPC corps anchor POSes. Nothing else I own is protected from a war. A POS launched for a corp is still subject to an alliance war. Then it sounds like you should talk to your corp about roles, not bugging CCP for meaningless and time consuming features that add nothing. Use your brain. Only an idiot that wants to be separated from their hard-earned resources SHARES their research/production POS with an entire corporation. Are you such an idiot?
The system proposed is functionally no different than the existing one, except the "player" owns the structures
Which either 1) Follow him when he leaves corp, leading to invulnerable POS
or 2) Stay with the corp, making with the entire thing an exercise in madness - you can just use the existing corporation structures to "own" a POS. |
MyHaula
Wages Of Sin
3
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Posted - 2014.05.02 17:05:00 -
[639] - Quote
Cultural Enrichment wrote:I still dont get why so many people dont understand how heavily this change will skew the things for a group of coordinated players (or, as I like to call them, t e a m s ) against the autistic solo players.
If that's not what you were looking for, what is?
I'm one of the stupid ones. I don't get how this will skew so much to a group of coordinated players. |
Nyjil Lizaru
Aideron Robotics
26
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Posted - 2014.05.02 17:44:00 -
[640] - Quote
I expect that groups of players (either formal alliances or less formal 'arrangements') will cooperate on auctions to bring high-bonus (and probably highly focused) teams to one system where they will build the crap out of whatever specialty they picked.
Nyjil's corollary to Malcanis' Law: -á "Any attempt by CCP to smooth the learning curve of EVE Online will be carried out via the addition of extra factors and 'features' such that there is a net increase in complexity." |
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MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
309
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Posted - 2014.05.02 19:42:00 -
[641] - Quote
Loraine Gess wrote:No word on whether titan/cap specialties will exist (haven't seen a question on it either). Even then that would mean grouping all titan builds into the same system, and broadcasting that system, and then defending the POS until they all come out. Actually, given that titan BPOs have relatively low numbers of parts (500 or so), and that the BPO itself is probably already ME2+ (old style), I don't know that the relatively modest ME improvements from teams would be effective at improving the actual titan build. Where the team bonus is more likely to be useful is in the builds of the titan components. So, theoretically, you could have a team in a central build system for building the components, with the titan builds themselves in several nearby systems. But, having never attempted a titan build myself, I'm intentionally overlooking the logistics of that, which might make the whole thing a maddening mess.
MDD |
Furoth
Black Avarice
23
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Posted - 2014.05.02 21:06:00 -
[642] - Quote
Those with the highest profit margins and production costs will find the teams easy to monopolize. The small industrialist who is just starting out gains nothing from the system. Actually they pay a new cost for the default teams so really its harder for them to turn a profit. They now have an additional cost with no chance of gaining the benefits. It only serves to push small industrial operations out of the market. And that's a lousy idea.
Give us our own teams to train over time and jobs run and it's a level playing field but to force the small operations to bid at the same level of those who turn over trillions in materials and products and you have a slanted system that punishes the little guys.
I hate the whole idea of it.
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Flay Nardieu
Forgotten Union of Knackered Tradesfolk Universal Rockstars
30
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Posted - 2014.05.03 01:31:00 -
[643] - Quote
"I'm not taking pie from you, I'm giving pie to me" Penn from Penn & Tell in episode of Bullshit
Paraphrase in context:
"We aren't taking options from players, we are enabling NPCs"
Some plans for the expansion are so obviously contrary to what has been stated in recent announcements and posts and a couple are complete contradictions to the 3 principles the whole expansion was supposedly based on... So... I am a carebear, Really?-á Ok.... I'll be CRAZY Bear then! |
Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
14
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Posted - 2014.05.03 08:47:00 -
[644] - Quote
Furoth wrote:Those with the highest profit margins and production costs will find the teams easy to monopolize. The small industrialist who is just starting out gains nothing from the system. Actually they pay a new cost for the default teams so really its harder for them to turn a profit. They now have an additional cost with no chance of gaining the benefits. It only serves to push small industrial operations out of the market. And that's a lousy idea.
Give us our own teams to train over time and jobs run and it's a level playing field but to force the small operations to bid at the same level of those who turn over trillions in materials and products and you have a slanted system that punishes the little guys.
I hate the whole idea of it.
Or the small guys move to where the big guys are producing and reaping the same benefit for none of the cost. Looks pretty valid to me |
Jethrow Toralen
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
5
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Posted - 2014.05.03 12:09:00 -
[645] - Quote
Well this is interesting. On one hand mobile newer players are assisted, grabbing their BPC and hopping into the closest system with a team for their manufacturing - I like that, but again with the reservation I expressed in the manufacturing thread - too much 'interest' or complexity (variables, decision-making etc) is as offputting as too little interest or complexity.
But will anyone in highsec really order a team, knowing that a large bunch of mobile plebians will crash their system and jack up their prices for the next 28 day averaging? Let alone the non-zero sum game experiment aspect - very few ppl play those cooperatively such that both parties win, usually they try for more benefit to themselves to the detriment of the other party with the end result being there is no gain to either party. And philosophically, I imagine the sort of ppl with the money to do this in highsec will find it offensive to have to share their economic benefits with competitors.
Highsec content creators ;) though, are probably getting warm fuzzies at the prospect of such a honeypot! :D (Creating it themselves or availing themselves of those created by genuine industrialists!)
Quote:devblog The only way to monopolize a team is to get it to a system with no public stations (for instance where you have an Outpost). Yes, quite. I look forward with interest to seeing who locks up the teams first! For benefit, or even just for the lulz.
Quote:devblog There are no extra benefits given to those that spent money to attract a team to a system. This is on purpose to keep the system simpler. However, this does mean that players can freeload of the money and effort spent by somebody else in acquiring a team into a system. WeGÇÖll monitor the behavior of industrialists in the weeks following the release to determine if we need to take action to reward those people active in getting teams into systems. See non-zero sum game comment. Human nature being what it is, I can't imagine ppl going for this unless they can extract protected benefits. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
475
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Posted - 2014.05.03 14:38:00 -
[646] - Quote
Will there be some sort of a simulator on if a Team is actually benefiting a industry job or if it adds just unnecessary cost, or a way to build 3rd party tools that can simulate industry processes with the various influencing cost contributors? |
Furoth
Black Avarice
25
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Posted - 2014.05.03 18:13:00 -
[647] - Quote
Firvain wrote:Or the small guys move to where the big guys are producing and reaping the same benefit for none of the cost. Looks pretty valid to me
And yet I still doubt you will open your outposts to the public hoping to attract all that industry.
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7235
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Posted - 2014.05.03 18:18:00 -
[648] - Quote
Furoth wrote:Firvain wrote:Or the small guys move to where the big guys are producing and reaping the same benefit for none of the cost. Looks pretty valid to me And yet I still doubt you will open your outposts to the public hoping to attract all that industry. well, that depends on if you've got a security deposit ready and can pass the background check Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Furoth
Black Avarice
25
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Posted - 2014.05.03 19:42:00 -
[649] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:well, that depends on if you've got a security deposit ready and can pass the background check
This just highlights my point(oh and thanks). Those with the isk can benefit from the system; those without, the little guys, cannot. It's a one sided system and a bad idea.
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Dramaticus
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
518
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Posted - 2014.05.03 20:03:00 -
[650] - Quote
That individuals are going to find themselves at a disadvantage to coordinated groups is neither a surprise or undesired. The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal
The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them |
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Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
14
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Posted - 2014.05.03 20:27:00 -
[651] - Quote
Furoth wrote:Weaselior wrote:well, that depends on if you've got a security deposit ready and can pass the background check This just highlights my point(oh and thanks). Those with the isk can benefit from the system; those without, the little guys, cannot. It's a one sided system and a bad idea.
yeah except you in highsec have alot more people around to actully work together then the 5 industrials that live in deklein.
The combined pocket of 20 people is alot bigger then the pockets of 5 |
Dramaticus
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
519
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Posted - 2014.05.03 21:36:00 -
[652] - Quote
Firvain wrote:Furoth wrote:Weaselior wrote:well, that depends on if you've got a security deposit ready and can pass the background check This just highlights my point(oh and thanks). Those with the isk can benefit from the system; those without, the little guys, cannot. It's a one sided system and a bad idea. yeah except you in highsec have alot more people around to actully work together then the 5 industrials that live in deklein. The combined pocket of 20 people is alot bigger then the pockets of 5
Except they are idiots The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal
The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them |
El 1974
Freedom For Fantasy The Unthinkables
145
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Posted - 2014.05.03 21:54:00 -
[653] - Quote
Adding complexity without interesting new gameplay is really the way forward. |
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
20
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Posted - 2014.05.03 22:09:00 -
[654] - Quote
Furoth wrote:Weaselior wrote:well, that depends on if you've got a security deposit ready and can pass the background check This just highlights my point(oh and thanks). Those with the isk can benefit from the system; those without, the little guys, cannot. It's a one sided system and a bad idea.
That's not true. It shouldn't be the few with ISK because they can't outdo the many who organize. But what you are really saying is that it's too hard to try and organize and as a result it will be the few with money or the small groups who can organize. But that is the story of EVE. Better organization always wins.
If Hisec could ever find a way of coming together, they could completely screw the big nullsec entities. Not just in terms of the Teams, but in a good many ways related to this expansion. But they won't, so forget I mentioned it. |
Furoth
Black Avarice
25
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Posted - 2014.05.03 23:47:00 -
[655] - Quote
Dirk MacGirk wrote: That's not true. It shouldn't be the few with ISK because they can't outdo the many who organize. But what you are really saying is that it's too hard to try and organize and as a result it will be the few with money or the small groups who can organize. But that is the story of EVE. Better organization always wins.
If Hisec could ever find a way of coming together, they could completely screw the big nullsec entities. Not just in terms of the Teams, but in a good many ways related to this expansion. But they won't, so forget I mentioned it.
IF high sec industrialists grouped to screw over null sec, do they deserve additional game mechanics that makes it easier to do so? No. I'm not aginst organized groups in high sec or the 5 industrialists in Delekin, I simply hate the idea of such a lopsided mechanic.
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Lolmer
OMG-Ponies Caffeine Nicotine and Hate
120
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Posted - 2014.05.04 02:03:00 -
[656] - Quote
I was all excited to hear that industrial teamwork was being implemented inside Eve, only to find out that you mean use NPCs. I thought we were moving away from NPCs being involved. Instead this should be a Contract system where players sell their skills (consuming a usage of the appropriate industry slot) for the duration) to fulfill these needs, thus opening up another way for players to contribute or hinder (by accepting the contract with the lowest skilled character(s)) other players and use their skills for income. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
475
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Posted - 2014.05.04 06:25:00 -
[657] - Quote
Furoth wrote:Firvain wrote:Or the small guys move to where the big guys are producing and reaping the same benefit for none of the cost. Looks pretty valid to me And yet I still doubt you will open your outposts to the public hoping to attract all that industry.
Who would voluntarily go to CFC space or any 00 sec station for that matter (Providence might be the exception proving the rule) as a neutral and produce there? That's like voluntarily deadzoning your assets.
--
Lolmer wrote:I was all excited to hear that industrial teamwork was being implemented inside Eve, only to find out that you mean use NPCs. I thought we were moving away from NPCs being involved. Instead this should be a Contract system where players sell their skills (consuming a usage of the appropriate industry slot) for the duration) to fulfill these needs, thus opening up another way for players to contribute or hinder (by accepting the contract with the lowest skilled character(s)) other players and use their skills for income.
This would not work at all. |
Seith Kali
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
29
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Posted - 2014.05.04 07:09:00 -
[658] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Who would voluntarily go to CFC space or any 00 sec station for that matter (Providence might be the exception proving the rule) as a neutral and produce there? That's like voluntarily deadzoning your assets.
We have an excellent rental program. Would you care for details? Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege.-á |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
475
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Posted - 2014.05.04 07:19:00 -
[659] - Quote
Absolutely not. I pay CCP for playing the game, no one else.
Besides, renting is a slightly different matter to Neutrals can dock on our station, it's not much, but the difference is there. |
Firvain
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
14
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Posted - 2014.05.04 11:18:00 -
[660] - Quote
Furoth wrote:Firvain wrote:Or the small guys move to where the big guys are producing and reaping the same benefit for none of the cost. Looks pretty valid to me And yet I still doubt you will open your outposts to the public hoping to attract all that industry.
Im always looking for minions tbh, although i do prefer mining minions over building minions at the moment. If you are a miner and want a nice safe place to mine feel free to poke me. Ive got some pretty good terms like free hulks and free perfect reprocessing etc :) |
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