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Cearain
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1271
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Posted - 2014.05.01 21:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Bad Messenger wrote:Deen Wispa wrote:Best of the Amarr Militia vs Best of the Gallente. We've both wiped out our respective opposition. We're both bored. It only makes sense for us to go head to head. Your April 27th roam into Gallente space gave a glimpse of what both sides can field. (We can both field HAC-level doctrines, albeit kitchen sink at times) When is this dream match going to occur on a nightly basis? When will you all move up here?
That joint fleet was a combination of In Exile, Winmatar, and Vitoc; supposedly the best that Amarr has to offer. We want to see more! sadly fw is not about biggest fleets and biggest ships. fw is about farmers and farmers decide which side is winning. Sadly people think that controlling occupancy is winning FW, rather than the fights and content it generates.
So you don't think winning the occupancy war should be a primary content driver. Ok fine.
It seems like people are "bored" and turning to the forums to try to arrange fights with a militia on the other side of new eden. Is this considered fw "fights and content" we should all be so thrilled about? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1272
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Posted - 2014.05.01 22:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
Well IMO occupancy is what we are fighting for. The design intent is clear based on how rewards are given. The fact that everyone tends to ignore occupancy and think its somehow irrelevant, shows something is fundamentally off.
That's not to say that fw isn't great in other respects. It is. If people want to arrange fights from time to time its fine, and not necessarily proof anything is broken. But I don't think we should pretend that everything is working as intended either.
It's quite easy to have other things in real life take a priority over faction war. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1272
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Posted - 2014.05.02 01:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote: So you don't think winning the occupancy war should be a primary content driver. Ok fine.
We already won.
The Caldari already won. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1272
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Posted - 2014.05.02 02:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote: So you don't think winning the occupancy war should be a primary content driver. Ok fine.
We already won. The Caldari already won. You didn't.
That's true. I never won or lost. Actually to say someone won or lost suggests the war is over. It's not. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1272
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Posted - 2014.05.02 13:13:00 -
[5] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:says facts If you like lol. Sounds kinda silly. clean the down syndrome from your eyes and wake up. controlling occupancy is winning fw period Occupancy is a content driver, not content. Only the autistic could confuse this.
I noticed this is the second time this week you claimed someone else was autistic. Where I come from this sort of name calling from any adult is the sign or an abnormally immature/underdeveloped mind.
You are claiming someone else suffers from a disability that is often indicated by socially inappropriate behavior. But your accusation itself demonstrates you are extremely socially inappropriate. I wonder if you see the irony.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1272
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Posted - 2014.05.02 13:34:00 -
[6] - Quote
Cromwell Savage wrote:
Not quite...controlling home systems is 'winning' FW...if you can even call it that...
Who gives a rats ass about non-station systems or other systems that do not matter. The only system that really matters is the one you call home. The rest is Farmville garbage.
This douchery of occupancy is what is wrong in the first place...
Controlling your "home system" is what its all about huh? You can lose the other 99 systems but if they can't take this one then you are "winning."
I have to say this reminds me of the Notre Dame Navy rivalry. Notre Dame beat navy over 40 times in a row. But then the streak snapped. So presumably Navy could then say "Nobody beats Navy 50 times in a row!"
When eve came out with Faction war and later when inferno came out we really didn't hear many claims that holding 2 or 3 systems was winning. It seems this way of winning was more of an after the fact claim to victory. Gallente can't hold the space so they are going to redefine victory not unlike the navy fans.
When faction war first came out lots in amarr said the tier system and reward structure is broken. (after all that was a huge part of the changes!) We were told we were just crybabies and we should get out there and try to win the broken system. I and a few others did, but it just became obvious to us it was broken. Now it seems people agree its broken. But now they have changed the goal. Now all those changes that deal with various rewards for occupancy plexing (really 90% of the changes) are irrelevant. The only thing that matters is whether we get kicked out of our home station.
Ok EVE is a sandbox so you can set your own goals and claim whatever subjective victory you want. But I would just point out that holding on to your "home system" is just a matter of who can get the largest blob and into a single system the longest. In other words its just null sec but with training wheels.
Its pretty clear to me that the intent of fw is that people would fight for occupancy throughout the warzone - as that is what the rewards are structured around. The rest is just a matter who can outblob the other or random rvb pvp.
Your basically saying we didn't want those systems anyway - and refusing to admit that something is broken. I think we should accept that fw has potential but it needs some work to fix it.
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Cearain wrote: That's true. I never won or lost. Actually to say someone won or lost suggests the war is over. It's not.
Suddenly occupancy in itself doesnt seem so important, right?
No its still what fw is about. You see I don't do what you did. I don't see that I haven't accomplished something and therefore decide that I can still claim to "win" without accomplishing it. I don't think holding onto a single system is "winning" the war.
The thing is I accept the truth that fw is geared toward occupancy but the mechanics needs to be adjusted so the game is worth playing. Right now it's not. You just make up your own victory condition - getting lots of killmails or whatever. That's fine too but really you can do that in rvb or null sec or low sec as a neutral. Gathering a bunch of killmails for your epeen really has nothing to do with fw in particular. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1272
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Posted - 2014.05.02 16:07:00 -
[7] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:Controlling your "home system" is what its all about huh? You can lose the other 99 systems but if they can't take this one then you are "winning.".... Yeah pretty much, but without the snarky "quotes" and the fact that there are 101 total systems (not 100). Honestly, I didn't know that it was your job to decide my victory conditions in a sandbox game. BTW, my side has already "won" FW once by your victory conditions - even though our self-defined victory condition was different (Our victory condition was to get a medal from CCP and high five from CCP Fozzie). Quote:No its still what fw is about. You see I don't do what you did. I don't see that I haven't accomplished something and therefore decide that I can still claim to "win" without accomplishing it. I don't think holding onto a single system is "winning" the war. Again, been there - done that. Please don't get too upset with us for playing FW as you think it was intended to be played. Can't win by achieving Cearain's victory conditions, can't win by defining our own set of victory conditions. What'cha gonna do?
XG I'm not saying your victory conditions are wrong any more than I am saying Navy can't decide they met their victory conditions because "nobody beats navy fifty times in a row."
I am saying that, for the most part, this seems to be after the fact rationalizations. When faction war first came out I don't recall anyone looking at the rules and immediately concluding "ah yes, if I hold one system I am winning faction war."
But now that we see most of the changes ccp did regarding rewards for occupancy and tiers etc are broken this view seems to be the new raison d'+¬tre for faction war. The question is whether people are going to be honest and recognize that its mostly broken or whether they are going to pretend this is how it was all envisioned from the start.
As for holding a single system its just a matter of who can get the bigger blob in that system for enough time to flip it. If that is your "victory condition" that's fine your entitled to your opinion. But I'm entitled to mine as well. And my opinion is that such a victory is in fact null sec on training wheels.
On the other hand, if the goal of fw was in fact trying to achieve and hold occupancy throughout the warzone - and it wasn't broken - it would involve strategy that is significantly different in form from what they do in null sec. I just think we should admit its broken and try to fix it instead of claiming hollow "victories."
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1272
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Posted - 2014.05.02 19:04:00 -
[8] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:You can only dock in one station at a time. Why would i care about occupancy beyond the fights it generates and the isk it periodically provides..
I think it would be fun to try to do your bit in a larger operation to control a region of low sec. It would be fun if the mechanics made it feasible to do this through pvp. However it is not feasible with the current mechanics.
So you can either drastically lower your expectations and look at fw like rvb with the occassional blob of a home system, or you can argue for changes that would make fw great. But if you do the former don't pretend your not lowering your expectations to fit what is feasible under a broken system.
Crosi Wesdo wrote: The current system gives everyone what they want, apart from those like yourself and a few others whos goal is to dominate the enemy factions indefinitely thus ruining FW.
Your goal is not a good one, nor is it healthy for FW or EVE.
You make it sound like I am in favor of station lockouts. I am not. I want the losing side to be able to continuously put up a fight. And I am against mechanics that prevent that. My goal is to have Faction War be a continuous pvp fight happening in plexes throughout the disputed regions. I think ccp can do this if they finally implement changes that players have been recommending for a long long time. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1278
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Posted - 2014.05.05 15:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
GavinGoodrich wrote:"K guys, here's the game. Ball goes in this hole/net, but if it doesn't, you don't win or lose anyway. Also there's no timer, so the game goes on forever, even if your team was ahead at one point, it's irrelevant 'cause they'll be behind later, 'cause there's no timer to end the game at any point."
"there's no stoppage of play, there's no referees. Here's the ball and have fun! The net's over that way, if you...you know...want to."
Now tell me exactly how you "win" this game? Long as you're playing the game sounds like you're winning as it is.
You and several others make some good points let me give my perspective. Sorry for a long post.
I used to play basketball every morning before work with some co-workers. We kept score but I can't say now what percent of games I won. It wasn't like there was a buzzer and then the game ended. The teams switched up day to day. It was really just like what you describe it was like a forever game.
But we would all try to score points for our team and we played the game as it was designed. Its not like someone said well I think basketball horrible and I just like the sound when I whip the basketball against the backboard really hard. So instead of trying to score I just want to whip the basketball against the backboard more times than my opponent. If I do that then I am calling it a win!
We played basketball as it was designed because it was fun. I do sort of remember what each player would bring to the team they played for though. One guy could shoot, another was pretty strong and could box out for the boards, another could think up decent plays and find an opening, I was pretty fast so I was good at finding a fast break and play defense. But we all played the game trying to score points for our team (which might change day to day) and I think most of us had fun doing it.
In eve there are certain skills players to varying degrees think have merit. Usually these involve pvp skills. Flying a ship, fcing, fitting a ship, figuring out fleet doctrines, and even making isk. Cromwell says occupancy means nothing to him. I think that is because itGÇÖs not fun. I think itGÇÖs not fun because the occupancy war in 99% of systems doesn't involve any of the skills eve players value. Even making isk isn't required because you can run plexes in cheap ships. Occupancy needs some changes to the mechanics to make it fun and it will be fun when it starts to require some skills players value.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1278
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Posted - 2014.05.05 15:52:00 -
[10] - Quote
Anyway yes this has likely drifted off the topic of the op. But I think op has his answer and can arrange his fight through evemail if anyone from amarr is interested. I think allot of excellent points were raised in this thread that really get to the bottom of what we want faction war plexing to be like so I am giving my views here.
Cromwell says he runs missions for the squids and roams for pvp. Before inferno I would do the same. Except I would do missions for amarr. He says he cares about his home system only because of docking rights. Another gallente explained that means he gets out an alt in a stabbed ship and deplexes his home system. Is that fun? It seems to me that now you need to do that if you want to be in the middle of the war. But instead of making the game more fun docking restrictions put another barrier to fun. Now you need to have this second account deplexing while your main roams.
Sure docking restrictions will occassionally offer up the big fight. Not nearly as well as null sec does but its pretty much the same idea just with small stakes instead of large ones.
He ends by saying not everyone in fw cares about occupancy. I agree and would say *very* few do. That just shows that ccp has not really made occupancy fun yet. Most suggestions to make occupancy fun will not ruin your ability to run missions or go on roams - just like you always could. It will just add to the game.
IMO ccp should have made occupancy warfare fun first. (IMO it woudl be fun if it involved more pvp spread out throughout the warzone.) After they made it into something that is fun then they should have added consequences. Instead they through tons of isk at it and said "there now look at all the people playing faction war. Obviously we did a good job making it fun." When in fact allot of the people doing faction war were just in it for the isk. It wasn't really fun it was more isk per hour and or less of a pain than some other way to get isk. IMO you get isk so you can play eve. It doesn't makes sense to play eve just to get isk.
JAF makes some good points as well.
I agree with points 1 and 2. I think this is good about faction war. But I still think they should make it fun to try to hold onto the space.
3,4 and 5) I mostly agree with you. I agree we do not have enough of the right types of pilots in faction war to fight for each system. There are over 20,000 pilots in faction war. There are 171 systems total. This number of pilots should be enough to defend the space in pvp. But of course, most of these pilots have no interest in pvp at all. This is why the current mechanics don't work and they need adjustment.
It would be silly for me to suggest that these pilots will all of a sudden have interest in pvp if the mechanics change to emphasize pvp. They won't. But what will happen is that if fw occupancy becomes a haven for small gang pvp on a scale 5-10xs what it is now, well then not only will more pvp pilots join but more people will play eve. No offense to EVE its a great game, but Eve can get kind of boring when your looking for fights.
I think your point 3,4 and 5 does in fact point out a problem though. Even if we get 3xs the pvpers we would not be able to police all the systems under the current mechanics. This is why some people have proposed to just reduce the number of systems. I think that is going in the wrong direction toward less strategy and more blobs. Instead I think ccp should give mechanics and tools to help pvpers police the space. This includes rollbacks and better intel of when plexes are being run.
I think in the end you look at the current mechanics and claim holding your single system is a win. I don't really mind that. But it seems to me that faction war tiers and rewards were structured such that it should have been much more than just getting your stabbed alt out there to deplex your home system and the rare blob warfare to take a home system by force. But regardless of intent, I think a few tweaks can make occupancy for the other 99% of systems a lot of fun to fight for. It won't hurt people who want to claim holding a single system is winning.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1278
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Posted - 2014.05.05 16:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:o Lack of docking restrictions is like playing basketball where defense is optional.
Unless its fun to fight for those plexes. You know it's a game. Negative consequences just make you do things like have an alt account that sits in a stabbed ship to deplex your space. If you don't have the biggest blob (or have no interest in having a stabbed alt deplex) then you will just dock outside low sec space. This just means you will waste more time reshipping.
X Gallentius wrote: o The "backwater systems" in FW are like the warm up area on the other court. Complaining that leisurely shooting the ball against an imaginary opponent is not exciting as playing in a real game, and then not wanting to play on the real court (where the opposing FW players live) is a bit weird.
Yes because small scale pvp is just a warm up for blobbery.
X Gallentius wrote: o FW low sec is a haven for solo and small gang pvp. Check the killboards. Compare it to any other low sec in the game - or even null sec. Only Barlequet when BNI was living there could compete with FW space in terms of pvp.
Just because there is more small scale pvp in faction war than there is in other areas of eve doesn't mean there is enough. EVE in general needs more small scale pvp opportunities. Like I said eve is great, but it can be quite boring when you are wasting time looking for fights. IMO FW should be nonstop fighting.
X Gallentius wrote: o There are definitely enough pvp'ers to police the entire warzone. They don't do it because it's boring. People who like to pvp go to the areas where they know they're going to get a fight. They don't go to High Sec Unour Constellation in Placid to look for a fight, and they don't complain that they can't find one when they do. They're smarter than that.
What does high sec have to do with anything?
Yes its boring because the current mechanics make it efficient to hide and seek plex. If the mechanics made it more efficient to win occupancy by pvp it wouldn't be so boring. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1278
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Posted - 2014.05.05 20:07:00 -
[12] - Quote
XG
Yeah we are back to your view that there is already "plenty" of pvp in faction war. According to you no one who knows what they are doing could ever get bored looking for fights. Yet this very thread was started from your corp mate saying:
Deen Wispa wrote:Best of the Amarr Militia vs Best of the Gallente. We've both wiped out our respective opposition. We're both bored.
in an attempt to find a fight with a militia at the other end of new eden. But yeah everyone gets "plenty" of fights and no one who knows what they are doing is ever bored.
I am not saying to drive farmers out of 95% of fw space (what you call "backwaters") just to drive them out. I am saying give pvpers tools so that they can control the fw space. That way space will be controlled based on pvp fights.
You think only the small scale pvp that happens in your home systems are "real faction war." Well you can believe whatever you want. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1279
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Posted - 2014.05.07 13:54:00 -
[13] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:You want quick 1v1 (or 1v2, 2v1, etc...) fights in plexes - these I can personally get within 10 minutes of logging in - proven repeatedly over a year ago. While you were ranting about not being able to do so, I was documenting case after case of doing just that (in Fliet where WTs were very active).
Your funny about your "proof." No one cares whether it is possible to get a fight within a few minutes or even seconds of undocking. It can happen. The question is are you getting in a fight every 10 minutes consistently, or is that just random luck. There was a time soon after inferno came out when we still had the cashout tiers that you could get about that many fights. Chatgris posted proof by his killboard showing different fights about that often. I also could get a ton of fights I had streaks like his but not quite as good. But then it started to dry up.
Your proof is always just your claim that "oh look I got a fight right away." You then claim that you log on and off quite a bit and that explains the long gaps of time between your fights. That might be true that you do that. But it would be better evidence if you said I am going to play eve on some future date say from 15:00-17:30 on may 25th. Then lets see your 2.5 hours and if you get 15 1v1 or 1v2 fights in that time. Then we see if that is repeatable. That is how you prove something.
I like all sorts of pvp. But yeah I recognize the probabilities. If I join a larger fleet the chances of actually finding a similar sized fleet that will give us a good fight is much less likely. It will likely be either some bait or one side or the other will have very little chance. That said some fcs do a great job beating those probabilities and are good at finding decent fights for their fleets. But on the whole your chances of finding fights is better if you keep the gang small. If you're in a larger fleet roaming you are likely to get far fewer good fights.
X Gallentius wrote: Deen is looking for different types of fights than you. ... Deen wants big cruiser level or higher fights. 50 on 50 brawls.
If you want to know know Deen actually said you can find it in this very thread:
Deen Wispa wrote:
We're no where near the numbers you think especially in the age of attrition warfare where some people can't get out of a meta fit frigate. Most of us are scattered across numerous home systems and a 40 man fleet isn't something we're capable of. I'd say 10-20 hac fleet is doable. 15-30 t1 cruisers is doable on weekends.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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