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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Lena Lazair
Khanid Irregulars
111
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Posted - 2014.05.03 21:51:00 -
[121] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:wow that ship is pretty underwhelming, i'll have no reason to use this over my venture. Good job Rise/Fozzie... In fact the hole of fanfest has been a let down so far.
Tech2 ships are specializations, not replacements. If everyone universally preferred the Prospect to the Venture, we'd be right back where we started pre-tiericide. It's a bummer you don't have a use case for the Prospect that gets you excited, but plenty of other people do.
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Lando Cenvax
State War Academy Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2014.05.03 22:24:00 -
[122] - Quote
Now introducing the Black Ops Mining Gang! Well... nice new ship. Although, I'm afraid I won't be used a lot. Reasons for that are already mentioned above multiple times.
I like to see new opportunities to mine in low, but CCP still fails to buff low-sec mining. Currently Low-Sec mining is just not attractive no matter what's to be harvested. Either mine in Sovereignity Null or Highsec... And one thing said in advance: Low-Sec Mining won't get more attractive by nerfing high-sec mining. That will just pi** of those who need a steady income for PLEX. That said, here are some reasons why low-sec mining sucks:
- Just to mention it: Risk of Shiploss. While that's part of low-sec mining, more frequent shiploss lowers the yield.
- Expecting Attacks/Shiploss means also using max-yield-fitting and yield-implants is a bad idea, thus lowers yield.
- Boost. No need to explain this. Orcas in Low are a rare sight -for good reason. Again, lower yield.
- Transport. How did CCP think Low-Sec miners get rid of their ore/minerals? Selling in Low doesn't pay, ferrying using Industrials is time-consuming and risky, Blockade Runners have not enough Cargo and Jump-Freighters are expensive in more than one way. Spending time hauling instead of mining means lower yield.
- Permanent Attention required. Accept it or not, but a lot of people won't mine if they need to pay attention to every single ship (multiboxers!) every fraction of a second of those hours of mining. Once you're scrambled, the fight is usually over for the barge/exhumer. ECM-Burst may solve the problem, but is banned in low (?!). Let me clarify this once again: There is no "active defense" (offensive modules) on mining ships unless you go for drones (and have good skills there) and probably drone damage amps and theoretically -banned- smartbombs. Having your second alt (if exists - keep in mind solo-players!) standing by for defense means this alt is not mining like he would do in high-sec. And once again (you already know it...) this lowers your (overall) yield (per char).
Under the bottom line ore would need to be a lot more valuable in low than it is in high. Here some thoughts (maybe not 100% thought through. but still good as inspiration) to make lowsec more attractive:
- Buff the Orca after it got partly obsolete (as ore-hauler) following the industrial buff. Give it larger Ore-Hold and allow it to travel safe(r) through low -either buy warp-core strenght +? or by Low-Range Jump-Drive.
- Buff the Rorqual after it will become partly obsolete during the expansion (compression).
- Warp-Core Strength +? Fleetboost module
- Blind-Warp ? AU into current aligned direction. Currently 1-2 bookmarks (per belt) in opposite direction are required to always stay aligned in a belt. That's just stupid...
- Auto-Repating D-Scan with its own filter (not the Overview-Filter). On D-Scan you care about ships and probes most of the time...
Disclaimer: I accept that this post will probably be quoted by (1) ignorants hating highsec players (also "carebaer-haters"), (2) people just saying "no", because they lack arguments and (3) long-time residents of New Eden which are against any changes because they fear some of their 100M+ Skillpoints may be devalued. (SCNR) |
Shinnan Krydu
Hedion University Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2014.05.03 22:31:00 -
[123] - Quote
Removal of drones from the ship = inability to kill web/scram elite frigates that sometimes show up in belt spawns. If you get scrammed in your Prospect, what do you do? Drop a mobile depot and switch out to some small guns? Patently ridiculous that this ship doesn't have the same drone capability the T1 version does.
Inability to deal with elite frigates puts the stop on "ninja mining" nullsec belts and essentially negates a large portion of it's stated purpose. Depending on price it may be much more useful as a blops tackle than anything else. |
Janden Rynd
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
40
|
Posted - 2014.05.03 22:50:00 -
[124] - Quote
A covops cloak on a venture... because FW plex farmers needed even more of a boost? Really CCP? I can only begin to imagine how abused this is going to be.
Awesome job on this one CCP, thanks for giving lowsec and FW the shaft again! |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
3149
|
Posted - 2014.05.03 23:23:00 -
[125] - Quote
Janden Rynd wrote:A covops cloak on a venture... because FW plex farmers needed even more of a boost? Really CCP? I can only begin to imagine how abused this is going to be.
Awesome job on this one CCP, thanks for giving lowsec and FW the shaft again! there's no stab bonus. |
Janden Rynd
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
40
|
Posted - 2014.05.03 23:26:00 -
[126] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Janden Rynd wrote:A covops cloak on a venture... because FW plex farmers needed even more of a boost? Really CCP? I can only begin to imagine how abused this is going to be.
Awesome job on this one CCP, thanks for giving lowsec and FW the shaft again! there's no stab bonus.
An additional 3 lowslots = potential bigger stab bonus. Nice try. |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
3149
|
Posted - 2014.05.03 23:37:00 -
[127] - Quote
i'm not trying anything. there are already covert ops ships in the game, with three lows, which farmers don't bother using. |
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
182
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Posted - 2014.05.04 01:52:00 -
[128] - Quote
Shinnan Krydu wrote:Removal of drones from the ship = inability to kill web/scram elite frigates that sometimes show up in belt spawns. If you get scrammed in your Prospect, what do you do? Drop a mobile depot and switch out to some small guns? Patently ridiculous that this ship doesn't have the same drone capability the T1 version does.
Inability to deal with elite frigates puts the stop on "ninja mining" nullsec belts and essentially negates a large portion of it's stated purpose. Depending on price it may be much more useful as a blops tackle than anything else.
This.
Why ninja mine if you can not kill NPC that guard the site (esp scramble frigs)? It needs at least 1 drone otherwise why go to a gas/ore site.
It will see action but I doubt for the announced role.
Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown |
Janden Rynd
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
40
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 03:36:00 -
[129] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:i'm not trying anything. there are already covert ops ships in the game, with three lows, which farmers don't bother using.
But the Venture is a common ship among the farmers; they tend to mine while farming. If you give them the ability to use a covops cloak and get an even better total stab count, do you really think that's going to reduce the farming, or make it any easier for real FW types to shoot them down? |
Aalysia Valkeiper
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
11
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Posted - 2014.05.04 05:33:00 -
[130] - Quote
It's beginning to look to me like the prospect will fit into some playstyles better than others and into some uses better than others.
the people whose playstyles and/or intended uses don't match what it will do aren't too happy.
there will be other 'expeditionary' frigates, people. This can be considered a 'prototype' for the entire line.
it is very possible one or more of the other 'exp-frigates' will fill those niches you are worried about.
I very much doubt any will (or can) fill them all. |
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Dave Stark
5243
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Posted - 2014.05.04 06:58:00 -
[131] - Quote
Shinnan Krydu wrote:Removal of drones from the ship = inability to kill web/scram elite frigates that sometimes show up in belt spawns. If you get scrammed in your Prospect, what do you do? Drop a mobile depot and switch out to some small guns? Patently ridiculous that this ship doesn't have the same drone capability the T1 version does.
Inability to deal with elite frigates puts the stop on "ninja mining" nullsec belts and essentially negates a large portion of it's stated purpose. Depending on price it may be much more useful as a blops tackle than anything else.
do rats appear on grid instantly, and instantly lock you? unless they do this, if you're paying attention then you should have absolutely no issue cloaking up and warping off. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
475
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 08:56:00 -
[132] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:ccp are unwilling to start a power creep with ships, and don't hesitate to nerf as well as buff.
however, they seem adamant about flooding eve with minerals by continually adding more and more minerals to ores and creating... a power creep. have ccp considered removing minerals from ore, rather than flooding the game with minerals?
They need to create more incentives to mine more in order to at least give compensation for the lost loot minerals a chance. |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
3153
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 09:16:00 -
[133] - Quote
Janden Rynd wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:i'm not trying anything. there are already covert ops ships in the game, with three lows, which farmers don't bother using. But the Venture is a common ship among the farmers; they tend to mine while farming. If you give them the ability to use a covops cloak and get an even better total stab count, do you really think that's going to reduce the farming, or make it any easier for real FW types to shoot them down? i don't even remember if complexes have asteroids in them. i do not care if a farmer scrapes an extra million isk's worth off a rock while they bore themselves and everyone else to tears. i imagine the majority of farmers will continue to use the minimum-skill minimum-cost cloaky stabbed atrons and ventures.
fw plexing (still) needs attention but i feel that shouldn't stop us getting a new spaceship that's unlikely to affect plexing meta in any meaningful way |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1480
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 09:35:00 -
[134] - Quote
Lena Lazair wrote:Rek Seven wrote:wow that ship is pretty underwhelming, i'll have no reason to use this over my venture. Good job Rise/Fozzie... In fact the hole of fanfest has been a let down so far. Tech2 ships are specializations, not replacements. If everyone universally preferred the Prospect to the Venture, we'd be right back where we started pre-tiericide. It's a bummer you don't have a use case for the Prospect that gets you excited, but plenty of other people do.
That was just my initial reaction. I appreciate the new form of game play that might emerge from a jump capable resource gathering ship but other than that, I don't think it's been handled right.
The Venture is already good at operating in dangerous space, to the point where many people consider it overpowered due to the difficulty in actually catching one... And now CCP are giving it a covert cloak and making it jump capable?! ... Don't talk to me about balance
They should have introduced a cruiser class version that does everything the Prospect can do but is less mobile and a better gas miner.
+1 |
Meiyang Lee
Game Instrument Applications
29
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Posted - 2014.05.04 10:30:00 -
[135] - Quote
Jagoff Haverford wrote:Quick question about one line in the stats for the Prospect: Quote: -100% Cloaking Device CPU use When I first started playing, all of the Cover Ops ships had something like this stat, only with odd percentages like 97.8% reduced CPU. CCP eventually did away with these bonuses, because they were kind of confusing. Now it seems like you are bringing these weird bonuses back, but just for this one ship.
-50% CPU bonus on cloaks for the Stealth Bomber -100% CPU bonus on cloaks on all T3 Covert Subsystems.
It's not a common bonus, but there are ships that still have it. Most other Covert Ops cloak ships have a CPU reduction per level bonus.
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
5249
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 10:47:00 -
[136] - Quote
Would removing the Nocxium from Pyroxeres have any impact on the hi sec supply of Nocxium?
It's just that the endless flood of people asking for higher yield ores or higher yield mining lasers have to be continually reminded that higher yields will actually reduce the value of the ore you're mining. In the meantime lowsec ores are undervalued because people would much rather mine Pyrox in hi sec for 10 hours than Hedbergite in lowsec for 1.
This gets back to ISK/effort, which you mentioned caught you by surprise in the last dev blog about mining. The effort of mining Pyrox in hi sec for 10 hours is actually lower than mining anything in lowsec for 1 hour.
Replace the Nocxium in Pyrox with Pyerite, suddenly the Nocx-bearing asteroids are worth more without having to shove more stuff into them.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Barune Darkor
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 11:31:00 -
[137] - Quote
Is it going to require mining frigate 5 to train the new skill?
What are the invention requirements/skills/datacores etc? |
G'host Warrot
Low-Sec Survival Ltd.
7
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 12:13:00 -
[138] - Quote
Barune Darkor wrote:Is it going to require mining frigate 5 to train the new skill?
What are the invention requirements/skills/datacores etc?
Its a Tech II Ship, what did u expect?
My magic crystal ball...says, Gallente Starship Engineering and Mechanical Engineering. Its a ORE Ship. Come on XD
To build it, I think u will need Frigate Construction, as it is a Tech II Ship. Some kind of magic, huh?
Greetings
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marcel72
State Protectorate Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 12:54:00 -
[139] - Quote
Janden Rynd wrote:...make it any easier for real FW types to shoot them down?
The "real FW types" should HTFU, IMO. |
Owen Levanth
Federated Deep Space Explorations
136
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 13:20:00 -
[140] - Quote
Shinnan Krydu wrote:Removal of drones from the ship = inability to kill web/scram elite frigates that sometimes show up in belt spawns. If you get scrammed in your Prospect, what do you do? Drop a mobile depot and switch out to some small guns? Patently ridiculous that this ship doesn't have the same drone capability the T1 version does.
Inability to deal with elite frigates puts the stop on "ninja mining" nullsec belts and essentially negates a large portion of it's stated purpose. Depending on price it may be much more useful as a blops tackle than anything else.
Why does this keep creeping up? Are people that bad with simple game mechanics? The Prospect can literally tank battleships thanks to a small sig. Cruisers in LowSec aren't a problem either. So the ship doesn't need guns. |
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
460
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 15:09:00 -
[141] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:If my maths are close, maxed out, this thing will pull about a fifth the yield of a 1.5 week old toon in a barge.
yes. the H/j are paying 1.5x veld, give or take.
So income per time mining H/J in this vs veld in barge = 0.2 x 1.5 = 30%.
So, I can max this out, take it out to low, find H/J cluster to mine... and make 1/3rd the profit of mining veld in high?
(ignoring travel time... ignoring risk... ignoring the what adding Mex to Arc will do to Mex price...)
Yep, we're sure to see fleets of these ninja mining low sec. Becuase we all know the goal of miners is to minimize profits in exchange for higher risk. Yup. It is largely irrelevant though. With the buffs to the ABC rocks, null sec refine rates, and null sec industry, null sec takes another step towards complete independence from all other sectors in the game, which is what one of the dev's promised 6 months ago would never happen. It is only a matter of time before the cartel leaders start demanding of their serfs minerals, or uncompressed ores, as part of their monthly tribute. I find it a joke when null sec complains about their transportation costs to high sec going from 0.5% to 0.75% of a payload with this isotope hike. If you listen to one of the chief architects of this indy overhaul, he has plans for null sec to be like Civilization-like city-states. Of course, he forgets to mention, those city-states will trade with each other, and have nothing to do with high sec.
I have to say I agree with you on the ore yield hike, I thought that the point of mex being rare was to encourage movement of players and goods between regions. This change combined with the yield hike makers it easier for the nullsec groups. I thought the point of Eve was that nothing should be made easier in terms of gameplay.
If they want people to move to lower security regions this didn't the way to go about it, it'll simply create a bigger divide between the regions and the current alliances will become more powerful. The smaller groups will never have a chance to compete and would be crushed the instant they tried to take sov anywhere of value.
This reminds me of the Premier League Football in the UK, the top few teams have all the wealth and no other team can hope to compete or begin to challenge them. As more money comes in through various tv/advertising rights those few teams become more powerful, the consequence of which is that wealth is being sucked away from the smaller teams and the leagues are being killed in the lower leagues. The same will happen to any group living in the lower wealth regions.
This may as well be a case of gradually forcing players to move to null and kneel before one of the major groups as they will have no other option if they want any meaningful gameplay beyond destroying a few missions for the eventually nerfed rewards. |
Bear Templar
iMine Industries
7
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 15:14:00 -
[142] - Quote
Be interesting to see when Fozzie said:
"..The Prospect is the first Expedition Frigate, a new class of ships"
So more are yet to come...interesting.
Not only that be this line:
"This team was tasked with developing new and improved technologies for resource collection in the most hazardous parts of known space, wormhole space, and beyond."
It's the "...and beyond." part that really intrigues me. If a fish weighs 1 Kilogram plus half its own weight, how much does it weigh? (It's not 1.5kg btw) |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
460
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 15:24:00 -
[143] - Quote
My guess would be a bunch of more survivalist ships that can jump into a newly opened system and produce the stuff needed to create the second anchoring gate. Colonists moving in and living in the new are basically, taking everything with them to build the tools to build more tools and ships to build yet more and so on until creating the new gate.
That could be fun *but* it needs to be open to everyone, not just the major groups otherwise it hands yet more power and wealth to the few. I would actually like to see some benefits to people declaring for the empires, better rewards for defending empire space against the real threat of null, access to empire controlled gates to new systems, working for and in defence of the empires.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
460
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 15:58:00 -
[144] - Quote
Sizeof Void wrote:I really think that increasing the amount of resources available in null space is going to make null sec even more politically static.
Wars are fought over limited resources, and when everyone has access to abundant resources, the incentive to go to war diminishes. I think it makes more sense to severely reduce any and all easily available resources, across the board in both high-sec and null-sec. Force more conflicts over resources to occur, by making them more scarce.
For example: how about moving *all* of the ABC roids to WH space for a while and see what happens? I'm sure that it would prove to be very entertaining, due to the dynamics of wormhole access.
I think it would actually make more sense to make the different ores available be more distinct but with all still being required to build. That way you will have hi and losec players interacting more with nulsec not less. Interaction leads to conflict, usually through greed from seeing what the other side has that you want. The irsk/reward balance is always called at this point since hisec is more safe than losec (unless you try to move anything of value, mine without paying the heavies etc etc).but whatever happened to a balanced game? These changes may well throw the balance between hi/lo/null sec to the point that null is all that matters and that would be bad for the game in general.
Soon when a new player joins and they will be effectively told that to actually earn any real wealth in the game you have to move to someone else's space and your choices are very limited. I thought Eve was about valid and valuable choices to be made. The gradual degrading of hi and lo sec in favour of null is destroying these choices. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3165
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 16:04:00 -
[145] - Quote
Maxed out, excluding skills which equally effect a barge)
1.25 * 1.25 * 2 * 2 *1.09*1.09*1.09* 60 (MF bonus, EF bonus, Prospect Bonus, number of lasers,mlu,mlu,mlu, base yield)
485m3 per minute.
A procurer will pull in 594m3 per minute, max skill with 2 MLUs A retriever will pull in 648m3 with 3 MLUs.
So, if you're getting the better ore, it's better. And some people like to walk on the wild side.
(and for gas, it's really good) Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Janden Rynd
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
40
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 16:46:00 -
[146] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:Janden Rynd wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:i'm not trying anything. there are already covert ops ships in the game, with three lows, which farmers don't bother using. But the Venture is a common ship among the farmers; they tend to mine while farming. If you give them the ability to use a covops cloak and get an even better total stab count, do you really think that's going to reduce the farming, or make it any easier for real FW types to shoot them down? i don't even remember if complexes have asteroids in them. i do not care if a farmer scrapes an extra million isk's worth off a rock while they bore themselves and everyone else to tears. i imagine the majority of farmers will continue to use the minimum-skill minimum-cost cloaky stabbed atrons and ventures. fw plexing (still) needs attention but i feel that shouldn't stop us getting a new spaceship that's unlikely to affect plexing meta in any meaningful way
The bolded part is where we disagree then; I see this ship as having a much more meaningful impact than you seem to suppose.
marcel72 wrote:The "real FW types" should HTFU, IMO.
So you're in favor of making plex farmers even more uncatchable and unkillable, and letting them operate at virtually no risk in return for high rewards?
FW farmers have a large effect on system control, but they have no skin in the game. They are not in FW to fight for one side or the other, they just go where the ISK is. FW was supposed to be about using PvE mechanics to encourage PvP encounters. Instead, FW farmers exploit the PvE mechanics to make ISK while avoiding the PvP risk, but they still alter the system status, arguably even more than any of the FW PvPers.
I wouldn't have an issue with all of this if it were possible for the FW PvPers to actually engage the farmers with a reasonable amount of effort. As it is now, it is possible to catch the farmers, but very difficult to do so, and the farmers operate at very low risk. Running in a Prospect instead of a Venture will further reduce that risk the farmers face by making it even easier for them to avoid PvP, all the while taking advantage of a system that is supposed to promote PvP.
The Prospect undermines the fundamental principle of risk vs. reward as it exists in FW. This balance is already skewed, and it most certainly did not need an even further nudge towards low risk/high reward activities. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1043
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 20:34:00 -
[147] - Quote
Owen Levanth wrote:Shinnan Krydu wrote:Removal of drones from the ship = inability to kill web/scram elite frigates that sometimes show up in belt spawns. If you get scrammed in your Prospect, what do you do? Drop a mobile depot and switch out to some small guns? Patently ridiculous that this ship doesn't have the same drone capability the T1 version does.
Inability to deal with elite frigates puts the stop on "ninja mining" nullsec belts and essentially negates a large portion of it's stated purpose. Depending on price it may be much more useful as a blops tackle than anything else. Why does this keep creeping up? Are people that bad with simple game mechanics? The Prospect can literally tank battleships thanks to a small sig. Cruisers in LowSec aren't a problem either. So the ship doesn't need guns. Are you going to sig tank the frigates he was asking about? Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Owen Levanth
Federated Deep Space Explorations
137
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 20:48:00 -
[148] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Owen Levanth wrote:Shinnan Krydu wrote:Removal of drones from the ship = inability to kill web/scram elite frigates that sometimes show up in belt spawns. If you get scrammed in your Prospect, what do you do? Drop a mobile depot and switch out to some small guns? Patently ridiculous that this ship doesn't have the same drone capability the T1 version does.
Inability to deal with elite frigates puts the stop on "ninja mining" nullsec belts and essentially negates a large portion of it's stated purpose. Depending on price it may be much more useful as a blops tackle than anything else. Why does this keep creeping up? Are people that bad with simple game mechanics? The Prospect can literally tank battleships thanks to a small sig. Cruisers in LowSec aren't a problem either. So the ship doesn't need guns. Are you going to sig tank the frigates he was asking about?
Actually, yes. T2 frigate against frigate-sized rats. Even if the Prospect isn't as durable as say, an assault frigate, it will be enough. Look at the EHP of that ship. Fill up a few resist-holes and a few belt rats will never make a dent in its tank. |
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
117
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 21:24:00 -
[149] - Quote
The Prospect will allow for better mining against high sector ganker's as well seeing as how it can fit a covert ops cloak and warp while cloaked.
I would also imagine that ORE will be coming out with its own personalized style of industrial as well in the future.
An industrial that can light Cyno's for groups of Prospects so the Prospects don't have to waist a high slot.
It would also be interesting to see an ORE Command Ship developed from the Venture mining frigate design except the size of a battleship where bonuses are given to only Venture, Prospect and X ORE Industrial type ships when in fleet. |
Nlex
Domini Canium
36
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 22:02:00 -
[150] - Quote
Owen Levanth wrote:Actually, yes. T2 frigate against frigate-sized rats. Even if the Prospect isn't as durable as say, an assault frigate, it will be enough. Look at the EHP of that ship. Fill up a few resist-holes and a few belt rats will never make a dent in its tank. I kind of assumed that the problem was not the damage, but being tackled, as it makes you unable to actually take back stuff you mined. MWD can probably fix that, but not sure if you can fit propmod and still have enough tank, and if both will fit. |
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