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Faction War Roundtable.

First up Fozzie revealed changes coming in the Summer Expansion.

Cannot cloak within capture radius of the button.
Rats will respawn so you'll need a DPS ship to plex.
Large Outposts being introduced (standard plex spawn rather than random)

Rest of the session was us REAL faction war pilots giving lots of ideas and feedback which I don't see happening as Fozzie did say we had all of 2012 dedicated to us so small fixes are the name of the game.

From the link posted by Andre. Awesome.

Very reasonable adjustments. Let's see how this plays out wrt. bots.

great, now stabbed farmers can escape even more easily because you can not hunt them with cloakky ship.

Damn, didn't think about that. Great observation.

great, now stabbed farmers can escape even more easily because you can not hunt them with cloakky ship.

vices nothing has changing cuz you still have to wait 10 seconds after decloak to lock anything

But crosi will have to make a new video 'how to hunt the farmers' i believe he made one killing my alts with stealth bomber

also why to spawn more rats? if you can kill those now what would respawn help?

great, now stabbed farmers can escape even more easily because you can not hunt them with cloakky ship.

So now they are going to add band-aid after damage has been done to the mechanics and FW reputation*, which people who actually played FW warned years ago would turn FW into a laughable farming fest.

And now it even increases because you cannot no longer hunt stabbed people with cloaked ships, more NPC means tag farming and as if there already was not enough farming, they will add even more plexes!

Could you at least remove the "no cloaking within" idiocy because the spawning NPC's will handle the decloaking and that's what it's meant to do. Damage wise, NPC does not even matter. There would have to be half a dozen or more in a plex simultaneously for anyone to actually give twopences about it.

*Farming cesspit where Dev's play personal favourites to their own side

*Farming cesspit where Dev's hand personal boons to their own/preferred side, like Luminaire titan event and ninja patch as most blatant examples.

damn. my hanger of assorted bc's t3's and commandships is finally gonna see some action that isnt on the undock or the other end of a cyno. not to mention my pile of battleships. yay.

damn i need some farming alts to make all this isk back. anybody got any good macro programs?

I wonder if we'll really see that many more BC fights though? I'm still a skeptic just because I feel like alot of people have been conditioned to fly frigs/dessies for so long that it's hard to get people to fly bigger stuff.

Could you at least remove the "no cloaking within" idiocy because the spawning NPC's will handle the decloaking and that's what it's meant to do. Damage wise, NPC does not even matter. There would have to be half a dozen or more in a plex simultaneously for anyone to actually give twopences about it. (Or it's power would need to be along the lines of Clone Soldier rat)

cloaking within capture point solves nothing so now farmers will be sat just on the edge of capture point, something comes on short range the blast the prop for a second in one direction and cloak.... feking useless and now it takes hunting stabbed farmers out aswell.

way to break **** even more.

as ive said before i see no way in stopping cloakers if they stopped people from entering plex with a cloak fitted ingenious farmers would just carry a mobile depot and cloak in hold get in plex refit and scoop depot

That point was actually brought up in the round table, and they made a note of it. So maybe it wont be that easy.

So now they are going to add band-aid after damage has been done to the mechanics and FW reputation*, which people who actually played FW warned years ago would turn FW into a laughable farming fest.

And now it even increases because you cannot no longer hunt stabbed people with cloaked ships, more NPC means tag farming and as if there already was not enough farming, they will add even more plexes!

Could you at least remove the "no cloaking within" idiocy because the spawning NPC's will handle the decloaking and that's what it's meant to do. Damage wise, NPC does not even matter. There would have to be half a dozen or more in a plex simultaneously for anyone to actually give twopences about it. (Or it's power would need to be along the lines of Clone Soldier rat)

*Farming cesspit where Dev's hand personal boons to their own/preferred side, like Luminaire titan event and ninja patch as most blatant examples.

Were devs in the gallente militia when they did the ninja patch?

Confirming CCP Chatgris ninja patched cals

but seriously now
according to drama all devs are in gallente militia...

So I take it the devs were not involved with gallente at all. It was all just tin hattery?

I wonder if we'll really see that many more BC fights though? I'm still a skeptic just because I feel like alot of people have been conditioned to fly frigs/dessies for so long that it's hard to get people to fly bigger stuff.

First of all, can anyone please repost that blog on a different blog server or just copy paste it here? China is blocking it atm...

Faction War Roundtable.

First up Fozzie revealed changes coming in the Summer Expansion.

• Cannot cloak within capture radius of the button.
• Rats will respawn so you'll need a DPS ship to plex.
• Large Outposts being introduced (standard plex spawn rather than random)

Rest of the session was us REAL faction war pilots giving lots of ideas and feedback which I don't see happening as Fozzie did say we had all of 2012 dedicated to us so small fixes are the name of the game.

One interesting thing was when someone asked about orbital bombardment of DUST514. There was oooohhhhh'ing and aaarrrrr'ing before the question was deflected. The hastag #theredfanfest has been used to reference the DUST514 fans who have come to this Fanfest.

after having some time to think about this last night. Rats will respawn so you'll need a DPS ship to plex.

unless these dual boxing farmers are being srsly strained trying to fight these rats because they dont have the srs ship to actually kill the rat, it wont be enough and nothing will change.

in the small there needs to be an actual destroyer rat capabale of killing a player destroyer full t2 fit.
same for medium, needs to be an actual cruiser capable of killing cruisers and actualy in some cases kills them.

and they need to respawn. other wise its simply not enough having a simple respawn for rats that get afk killed by 900k sp alts.

Then several things will then happen in regards to the real pvp..

this super-rat will inflict serious damage to you, allowing an enemy coming in to merely finishing you off at low risk since you're already at 50% armor by the time you've killed this super-rat. Or even if you're active rep, your capacitor is already partially empty by the time a hostile comes in with not only full shield & armor, but a topped off capacitor as well.

Also, when warping to fight a cruiser you scanned in a medium in an offensive system, you'll effectively always be fighting 2vs1 since this super-rat is apparently capable of inflicting serious harm and even destroying T2 fit player ships. Imagine what it can do with a player alongside it.

The warzone is for PvP right? Then lets leave the rats out of the equation in our fights, like they are now.
One of those 'be careful what you wish for' scenarios.

i basically did this every day until inferno came out. and it effected very little outcome in the form of pvp.

big deal. if you want to take that plex and there are hostiles around take the plex in force. with the new meta t1 logi fits i doubt anybody is gonna be at low armor or shields for long.

Jup seeing as all sides were affected by this not just cals everyone wanted one more t5 cashout but damar seems to think ccp were (and still are) in gal mil and knew caldaris were gunna go for a system flip at that time and announced patch with no time for them to do it(so they say even tho they had enough systems vuln and enough days to flip it)

seeing as gals owned the systems at that time pushed for t5 before patch hit.

The goal is to get us to require logi support to plex?

The rats were horrible before ccp finally toned them down. It was a good change. Probably the best thing ccp did for fw since it started. Players shouldn't rely on npcs to hold their space.

i clearly did not say that was the goal at all cearain. since the t1 logi alts are already in place for fw. big difference back then you needed pve ship for 20 minutes to run the plex. this is 1 minute of killing a hard NPC then moving the **** on.

All the old FW players back then werent calling for a PVE removal of FW they were calling for the proper balancing between the races rats. right so we are still gonna rely on farmers to hold our space eh? No im sorry, inferno was probably the worst thing to happen to FW. missions are hard. plexs were hard, now they are easy, its time they become hard again.

i clearly did not say that was the goal at all cearain. since the t1 logi alts are already in place for fw. big difference back then you needed pve ship for 20 minutes to run the plex. this is 1 minute of killing a hard NPC then moving the **** on.

All the old FW players back then werent calling for a PVE removal of FW they were calling for the proper balancing between the races rats. right so we are still gonna rely on farmers to hold our space eh? No im sorry, inferno was probably the worst thing to happen to FW. missions are hard. plexs were hard, now they are easy, its time they become hard again.

now it really is pve, you have to shoot rats, before you could just tank those now that is not possible so FW is now shooting rats...

going worse all the time...

Sad that CCP has to make bad game for actual players because of preventing botting.

I don't think there is any question that the ninja patch completely lopsided the Caldari Gallente fw I think Gallente got their medal shortly after that. I don't think it was due to any favoritism though. I think it just had to do with ignorance of the situation, and the fact that the current tier system was way too profitable.

No doubt damarrs tinfoil hattery will explode now funkybacon is on the csm

plz link this information!

plz link this information!

I wonder if we'll really see that many more BC fights though? I'm still a skeptic just because I feel like alot of people have been conditioned to fly frigs/dessies for so long that it's hard to get people to fly bigger stuff.

well, i can already tell now that the cloaking restriction will fix nothing. It might make it even worse. Freaking timer resets is what we need (and maybe a small timer length reduction if they are added).

Did nobody mention that on the roundtable?

edit: and having more rats would fix what again?

this super-rat will inflict serious damage to you, allowing an enemy coming in to merely finishing you off at low risk since you're already at 50% armor by the time you've killed this super-rat. Or even if you're active rep, your capacitor is already partially empty by the time a hostile comes in with not only full shield & armor, but a topped off capacitor as well.

This. All that will happen is that farmers will focus on defensive plexing instead.

Cloaking not being allowed within capture radius will help prevent the legions of bot farmers (who love to cloak up on arrival). Best sell my Astero, though.

Was there any discussion at all about removing the ridiculous faction navy, or at least dialling down its damping? The one that doesn't properly damp the likes of Trigger99 outside Villore, but does damp us outside Nourvukaiken? The one that makes GalMil missions hopeless?

If it will help against botting, that's a good change. (how it will do that I have no clue, but I am willing to accept that must be the reason)

There is a blog linked on the first page of this thread that recounts the FW round table. The short version is that many suggestions were brought up- 2012 was our year though so only expect small changes.

i do understand this that we can't expect big changes. But all we are asking for are tweaks. CCP needed a second expansion to partially fix what they delivered in inferno. And in all instances they always said "we will monitor the situation and tweak it later".

This did never happen. And timer resets are a trivial coding task, they are probably LESS effort than adding more rats and balancing them. #justsaying

I'm also curious if there was any specific response on the subject of timer rollbacks. Seriously, its the most supported change in the FW community. Tell me someone brought it up.

they could remove the rats all together if there would be timer rollbacks, allow cloaking, stabs everything. The problem is fixed. If you can't hold the line you can't make offensive/defensive progress. Most obvious fix ever.

If there is one fact in eve, its that pve'ers will never win a pvp war, and that pvp'ers would never win a pve war. That is why timer rollbacks by themselves would not deter farmers, specially bots.

Make evasion pve harder on top of timer rollbacks, that will put a dent in farming bots.

Cloaky ships, stabbed ships, fine. But ships fitted with these should not be able to effect occupancy. Timers should not tick for stabbed or cloaky ships.

Fitting a cloak to some degree and fitting stabs absolutely is a statement of "I have no interest in FW or leaning how to PVP, im here simply to farm isk to the detriment of everyone else in FW".

I have no problem with people earning isk, but if that is your primary goal, go run high sec missions, or lvl 5's, incursions etc, non of which put pressure on where other players can dock.

I'm sure that CCP believes that the code that runs the timers is complex. I have noted several times that they are reluctant to modify it. I rememeber reading in a thread somewhere where a CCP dev outright expressed the dificulties associated with this code.

Most vetrans will rember certain bugs associated with the timers and how long it took CCP to fix them despite the fact they were obvious exploits. As well as the expoits there were numerous small bugs.

Timers are pretty much working as intended ATM more by luck than judgement. For me CCP is reluctant to re-open the can of worms. Easier to tweak the rat's stats.

I once told new farmers in militia chat that each warp stabiliser and cloak they fitted to their ship reduced the LP payout for running a plex by 25%. Much to my surprise, many people believed me, and nobody called bullshit on it. I told them that CCP had introduced the change for RP reasons, as the Empire factions considered anybody fitting these modules to be 'insufficiently committed' to the war effort. I was mildly surprised that people were still mentioning this as truth in militia chat days later.

While I intended it as a joke, this might actually help reduce the rampant farming within the militias, or at the very least mean that farmers must actually risk their ships in order to get a 100% payout.

Covert cloaks should be ok in plexes imo.
The ships that use them have a decent value and farmers don't risk ships with a decent value.

It's an interesting idea to expand on. I know there are some niche cases where you bring a cloaked griffin alt into the site with you or you use a vexor with a single stab so you can warp off if you're being kited to death but that would certainly add options to the FW meta, especially since mobile depots and carrying around stabs in the cargo is beyond easy to do if it's required.

I'm also curious if there was any specific response on the subject of timer rollbacks. Seriously, its the most supported change in the FW community. Tell me someone brought it up.

it isn't really a pvp vs pve topic IMO. Its rather the fact that if you are after LP, running is more efficient then fighting. Thats a major flaw in the core design of plexing. Timer resets would make running or hiding inefficient, but you can and should still be able to run or hide if your really want.. its a sandbox after all.

Why are there timers in the first place? To force players to stay in space (its just the ultra short version of reinforcement timers), which ends up creating a conflict. Right now you can completely avoid the conflict while making progress.

I'm sure that CCP believes that the code that runs the timers is complex. I have noted several times that they are reluctant to modify it. I rememeber reading in a thread somewhere where a CCP dev outright expressed the dificulties associated with this code.

Most vetrans will rember certain bugs associated with the timers and how long it took CCP to fix them despite the fact they were obvious exploits. As well as the expoits there were numerous small bugs.

Timers are pretty much working as intended ATM more by luck than judgement. For me CCP is reluctant to re-open the can of worms. Easier to tweak the rat's stats.

Wall of useful text.

...primarily because they view FW space as the riskiest at the moment,...

uhm...apparently they really don't understand it.

7.They are concerned with the ease of getting and keeping high standings, the freeloader problem, and cross faction plexing issues. They asked about whether folks would be interested in some kind of standings decay over time due to inactivity, possibly linked to iHUB donations or PvP, which attendees were receptive to depending on implementation.

Resets or rollbacks simply don't achieve the aim you identify here. The defender just drives the aggressor out of the plex and then flies off. He has no motivation to stay in place as the timer will roll back anyway and he can maintain the status quo - which is inherently a defensive victory - without ever capping a plex.

And what's wrong with that? Why would the defender need to sit 19 minutes in a novice for no LP after the "attacker" has been driven off? What purpose does this serve, is it compelling and exciting gameplay?

And what's wrong with that? Why would the defender need to sit 19 minutes in a novice for no LP after the "attacker" has been driven off? What purpose does this serve, is it compelling and exciting gameplay?

Note that timer rollback does not mean the plex despawns, it just means that both parties start at 0 when the opponent has been booted out. To deny the offenders the plex, defenders still need to cap it. It also works both ways.

Noone in FW lowsec would ever consider AFK ratting in a carrier or Ishtar, for example.

Low sec, and particularly FW low sec, is far more dangerous than operating in sov null these days. Some things are out of whack - stabbed plexers, bombers in L4 missions - but in general I feel CCP has it right with that opinion. Noone in FW lowsec would ever consider AFK ratting in a carrier or Ishtar, for example.

it isn't really a pvp vs pve topic IMO. Its rather the fact that if you are after LP, running is more efficient then fighting. Thats a major flaw in the core design of plexing. Timer resets would make running or hiding inefficient, but you can and should still be able to run or hide if your really want.. its a sandbox after all....

No. that is timer reset. not rollback

Timer reset: plex resets to zero
Timer rollback: the plex ticks backwards.

timer reset has no place in this game as it is opened for abuse by defending players

timer rollback actually has a place in eve.

Ok, reset then.

Rollback has zero effect on the issue of farming, which is what people are trying to fix. Farmer warps back immediately after the PVP pilot leaves, making it essentially exactly the same as current situation.

Timer reset sets a price for being driven out of the plex.

I think you are right on this. But I do think it is a pve versus pvp issue. Ultimately the question is are you going to make the most progress for your faction by typically staying and fighting: pvp or are you going to make the most progress by avoiding other players: pve.

As a guy who has been in FW for a long time - the answer is fighting. For example: More was done to secure the warzone by recently beating the Caldari in Oicx, Enaluri, Innia, and Deven than by any number of afk plex farmers running stuff in backwater systems.

The map is not "flat" - it has terrain. And understanding that terrain is a major factor to being successful in FW. (The enemy is not defeated by taking Maintenault - it is defeated by taking Innia.) Of course, "defeat" is temporary since the Caldari can and will respawn in due time (due to FW mechanics, and willpower of the Caldari), but their recent losses have greatly affected the warzone.

I know you don't understand this stuff, but that's fine. You don't participate in FW and will therefore never "get it".

Ok, reset then.

Rollback has zero effect on the issue of farming, which is what people are trying to fix. Farmer warps back immediately after the PVP pilot leaves, making it essentially exactly the same as current situation.

Timer reset sets a price for being driven out of the plex.

Since inferno, Gallente has always had the ability to get the biggest blob to defend your home system. That is why you think that is so wonderful.

Resets or rollbacks simply don't achieve the aim you identify here. The defender just drives the aggressor out of the plex and then flies off. He has no motivation to stay in place as the timer will roll back anyway and he can maintain the status quo - which is inherently a defensive victory - without ever capping a plex.

Since inferno, Gallente has always had the ability to get the biggest blob to defend your home system. That is why you think that is so wonderful.

You think you are some sort of a military strategist because you figured out that blobbing caldari out of their home bases will be very disruptive to them. But this is just obvious and there really is very little thinking involved.

Since inferno, Gallente has always had the ability to get the biggest blob to defend your home system. That is why you think that is so wonderful.

FYI: Wall of text incoming.

So I attended the FW Roundtable, and of course was rather involved in the discussions. Here's some points that I recall, and my impressions.

Good Stuff.

It serves as a punishment for winning the engagement! How dare you run them out??!!

I too think that one 50mil SP character in a Comet should be able to defend a dozen plexes at a time against low-skilled characters in basic frigates. It is the height of absurdity to ask a pilot with lots of skillpoints to actually sit in a plex and run the timer down if he wants to hold it. He should be able to stop people soloing as many plexes as he can reach without ever having to do the boring scrub work the attackers will have to do to make any progress.

I agree that the current system isn't ideal but the rollback fix is worse. Optimal option is to have two timers and whoever counts down there own one first wins the plex.

Two low-skilled players in hookbills > 1 high skilled player in Comet - if the two low skilled players are competent.

If they are competent and if they are working together. However, while those two pilots will possibly be able to take one plex while working together the solo guy in the Comet can still protect as many plexes as are within his range from any low skill soloers without ever having to run a timer down. The two guys in hookbills have to sit in the same place but the defender can be all over the map. Defenders will get a HUGE force multiplier through a rollback change.

What's the objection to dual timers, out of interest? As far as I can see they solve the same problems but without setting up a new more significant imbalance.

In your scenario the Comet can only protect the plexes that the hookbills choose not to enter. We're back at the status quo. Yes, the defender gets a huge force multiplier through a rollback change. This multiplier is this:

- if he's willing to defend a system, then the other side has to bring more than him to start taking plexes. He's still not going to want to defend backwater systems (ok, somebody might, but not anybody I know), but he will be able to run off afk plexing alts in systems he cares about (home systems).

Dual timers - No different than the current system except the total engagement is shorter. The defender is still punished (by running the timer) for winning the engagement (making the other guy run).

the solo guy in the Comet can still protect as many plexes as are within his range from any low skill soloers without ever having to run a timer down.

Running the timer isn't a punishment, it's the mechanism for warzone control. If you think that winning the engagement is all that should be involved why apply this principle only to the defender?

The only thing that will ever reduce farmer activity is either:

A) Make plexes harder to do.

OR

B) Make plexes less profitable.

OR

C) Some combination thereof.

Having discussions about cloaks and warp core stabs makes evasion more difficult and that is all. The plexes by themselves are still stupidly easy to do and still pay ridiculous amounts of LP that can be converted into isk. Farmers will warp off rather then cloaking. There should be some farming as it greases the wheels of FW. Too much and you bath a militia in an acid bath that drives off members in frustration. That's where we are currently.

A DPS check would reduce some farming as it makes plexes harder. I approve. A cloaking ban kills warp in traps as well as makes more difficult the cloaky logi/ ecm alt. That reduces risk and play options and I don't like it.

Lastly, there's my favorite suggestion - kill the tier system and pay everyone at current tier 2 prices. Farmers would still exist but they'd respond to scarcity in the market rather then riding LP donation wave.

stuff

There is plenty of PVP in plexes, the issue is the risk/reward and the out of balance impact that farmers have on WZ control.

Total warzone control was way after that so didnt affect the balance when we took the warzone for complete control was after cals had held alot of it for a while......

as for making it too profitable now ... i dont get this i could earn 5 times what i earn now bk then

No doubt damarrs tinfoil hattery will explode now funkybacon is on the csm

The problem with dual timers is that all it does is make it slightly less soul-crushing to counter plex. But it does nothing to make the current plex-by-evasion system less effective. The point is to stimulate conflict. Having to fight for your LP stimulates conflict, which is I thought what FW was about. Timer rollbacks force everyone to have more of a stake in a plex fight. Personally I'd like to see LP only given out for offensive plexing when a system flips, but CCP is too chickenshit to actually do that.

I was thinking dual timers could also have roll backs.

"Plenty" of fights in plexes huh? What do you think is a good ratio of fights in a plex before its taken?

I think there should be about 2 or 3 fights in a plex before a plex is taken. How many fights on average do you think happen in each plex that is captured such that you claim there is "plenty of pvp in plexes"?

"Plenty" of fights in plexes huh? What do you think is a good ratio of fights in a plex before its taken?

I think there should be about 2 or 3 fights in a plex before a plex is taken. How many fights on average do you think happen in each plex that is captured such that you claim there is "plenty of pvp in plexes"?

Running the timer isn't a punishment, it's the mechanism for warzone control. If you think that winning the engagement is all that should be involved why apply this principle only to the defender?

2-3 fights per plex in every system? Not possible or realistic - simply due to the amount of players vs amount of systems in Eve.

2-3 fights per plex in a contested system on the front? It happens all of the time. I think you were gone at the time, but it was an absolute 23/7 bloodbath in Innia-Eha-Oicx area for an extended period of time. Frankly, I miss it.

I would hope I missed huge numbers of fights I was gone for 8 months and really don't see much point in going back. Eve pvp takes up too much time for too few good fights.

there is lucky enough to be even 1 fight for a plex these days. t1 logi has pretty much ruined FW plex pvp as you knew it. the new meta is having t1 logi alts cheap as hell and super effective with links. Ships do not die anymore in fights. these days its 'o reps arnt holding, bail'

having 2 or 3 brawl fights without logi isnt happening anymore in a plex which makes me sad.

The small plex is the only exception where the dps values on destroyers are so high your hull dies in 3 seconds. and destroyer fights are my favorite cuz logi is almost meaningless in them.

This guy clearly doesn't know what a JUSTK dragoon/Algos fleet with logi frig support is capable of. I employ you sir to come over to Eha and try it sometime

I think that should be the goal. I agree it won't happen with the current mechanics. There are plenty of people who would love it if eve offered better mechanics that yielded more quality small scale pvp. But it doesn't. Most of the changes ccp delivers are from a carebear perspective of "isk per hour" or "risk versus isk" gain.

I would hope I missed huge numbers of fights I was gone for 8 months and really don't see much point in going back. Eve pvp takes up too much time for too few good fights.

I don't think its a matter of not knowing as much as not really caring to see a big logi fleet.

Why do you want the enemy to come to systems that only you can dock in? Why don't you go fight the Amarr if you have something to prove?

This guy clearly doesn't know what a JUSTK dragoon/Algos fleet with logi frig support is capable of. I employ you sir to come over to Eha and try it sometime

Why do you think it only applies to defender? It equally applies to attacker too.

Maintaining the status quo by simply driving someone out of a plex is a victory for the defenders in a way that it is not for the attackers. The defender needs only maintain the status quo to succeed in his defense while the attacker cannot achieve anything without actually taking plexes. Timer rollbacks provide a huge force multiplier but only to the defender. X was arguing that running a timer is a punishment and that it is not fair to expect the defender to run a timer when they have already won the engagement. My question is why should this principle not also apply to the attackers - win engagement, take plex. It is obvious why this should not happen with attackers but the fact that the proposed mechanism will be fundamentally imbalanced in providing a massive advantage to the defender only tells you all you need to know about why it is inherently flawed.

Timer rollbacks provide a huge force multiplier but only to the defender.

i basically did this every day until inferno came out. and it effected very little outcome in the form of pvp.

big deal. if you want to take that plex and there are hostiles around take the plex in force. with the new meta t1 logi fits i doubt anybody is gonna be at low armor or shields for long.

... to the side trying to maintain the status quo, or the guy trying to grief the other side. Yes, most of the time the status quo is trying to be maintained by the defender, but there's cases where the attacker wants to do it as well. The attacker is also the guy who is most likely trying to grief the other side. Griefing is an honorable profession and deserves more tools! :)

Unless you like to solo, and by solo i mean true solo, not dual boxing to bring in logi or ecm when thing's aren't going well.

Tough NPC ships would just pretty much murder the solo scene in FW space.

Even respawning could be pretty tough, if you're webbed and scrammed in a frig in a medium plex, you're gonna feel those cruiser guns while you're slowboating, even in their current form. I know i'm gonna rage if i lose a 1v1 for that 15% damage inflicted by a rat that spawned mid fight lol.


With regards to farming. They obviously annoy me, but i don't understand all the need to do something about them if in turns it will hinder nother legit playstyle (read: soloing). It's not like by making farming impossible pvp pilots are gonna get more fights, farmers aren't gonna turn into fighters, the number of people willing to fight will just be the same if we get rid of the farmer swarms, might actually get some people away, ones who undock pretty much only in farmer hunting fits to score easy kills.

Offensive plexing is griefing and running timers down in a plex is a punishment?

Offensive plexing is griefing and running timers down in a plex is a punishment?

I think we're through the looking glass here people

No it does not (XGallentius is missing this point as well). Maintaining the status quo by simply driving someone out of a plex is a victory for the defenders in a way that it is not for the attackers. The defender needs only maintain the status quo to succeed in his defense while the attacker cannot achieve anything without actually taking plexes. Timer rollbacks provide a huge force multiplier but only to the defender. X was arguing that running a timer is a punishment and that it is not fair to expect the defender to run a timer when they have already won the engagement. My question is why should this principle not also apply to the attackers - win engagement, take plex. It is obvious why this should not happen with attackers but the fact that the proposed mechanism will be fundamentally imbalanced in providing a massive advantage to the defender only tells you all you need to know about why it is inherently flawed.

That has nothing to do really with CCP. A lot of that has to do with inflation on ship prices and not actually having the means to make ISK in accordance with the inflation. Yes, some people are beyond rich and it's not a matter for them. For others, it makes most people risk averse and not as willing to go out true solo'ing or willing to take a fight they might lose.

For example, 4 years ago when a Dominix was only 45mil for the hull and about 65mil fully fit (no rigs back then as triple trimarks cost the same as the hull) I could run a few havens in nullsec, i.e. about 40mins of work, and that would pay for my Dominix and a few cruiser/battle cruiser hulls. Now I have to spend 3x/4x more time to make the same ISK to do the same thing. So I don't go roaming around solo in Domis anymore and I will often not take a fight I'm not sure I'll win if I'm in something expensive. That's the real reason you don't see people out roaming as often. Hitting that tier 3 gate camp with 4x guardians in your Dominix in today's EvE means spending a few hours grinding to make the ISK back as opposed to 30mins like in the past. Fix that and you'll see people more inclined to do stupid things with their ships again

Griefing is keeping the other guy from achieving his goal. Could be defensive or offensive plexing.

And yes, running down timers when the other guy will not fight is a punishment. I don't see why it is so difficult for you to understand. If the guy running down the timer decides to run, then the plex should move back towards zero if nothing else happens.

Doing so would encourage the players running the timer to defend the plex by providing a consequence to bailing.

...
We can all go out and find fights very quickly in FW. That is not an issue. The reason that farmers are so detested is the mandatory defensive plexing that goes along with them. Your home system might be strong in Euro and US TZ. If you're weak in Aussie time though - when people start logging back on you could be looking at 10% - 16% contested. ....

Plex mechanics should not be modified with the intent of making FW plex easier to capture. That's what double timers and faster timer counts on rollback would do. Time to contest the plex should also give opportunities for pilots to reship and come back. I may bail from a fight that's a bad matchup, but intend to return for a more even fight.

On the other hand, if I run someone out of a plex I want them to be able to have that same chance. If I actually want to run the plex, I can stay there and deal with the time they've run up. With normal rollbacks, I might decide to pop another one in the system while the first plex rolls back to 0, then run it. These mechanics would be fair to both sides.

Plex mechanics should not be modified with the intent of making FW plex easier to capture. That's what double timers and faster timer counts on rollback would do. Time to contest the plex should also give opportunities for pilots to reship and come back. I may bail from a fight that's a bad matchup, but intend to return for a more even fight.

On the other hand, if I run someone out of a plex I want them to be able to have that same chance. If I actually want to run the plex, I can stay there and deal with the time they've run up. With normal rollbacks, I might decide to pop another one in the system while the first plex rolls back to 0, then run it. These mechanics would be fair to both sides.